07--The War Of The Roses

[triggercut]

Call it "Disputed Succession" or "War of the Roses" or whatever.

The Basics:

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Ooops. One important bit I've forgotten.

As each player in the game is eliminated, players below that player in that respective faction are advanced in rank. Each player will be told via PM at the resolution of a turn whether they moved up the chain, or whether they failed to advance.

IMPORTANT: players keep their initial powers or lack thereof even if they advance up the line of succession. So, if the Wise player (Rank 1 or First in line of succession) is eliminated, the Courtly, Godfearing, and Conniving players (as well as unpowered players) move up in rank, but do not lose their powers.

[Grundbegriff]

I need to think through the logic of the system before I comment on that, but I wanted to note (a) that it sounds pretty cool on first skim, and (b) it feels a bit like entering into a Zelazny saga.

[triggercut]

(b) it feels a bit like entering into a Zelazny saga.

Whatever its (lack of) merit otherwise, on that point it succeeds!

Some more thoughts walking to the bookstore:

1. The Wise character of both houses needs something more to him to empower him. Perhaps a kill immunity on the first turn or two.

2. I'm worried that on first blush the game might end up too complex, but in my mind (since I invented it, I suppose) once the rules are absorbed, they're actually rather simple, so I'd like to add to it a forum for both Houses in which "teammates" may make two posts per game turn. Game turns would be referred to going forward as "years". So two posts in the House forum by each player per year. (This would basically allow for a proposal/question/suggestion, followed by a response/rebuttal/yea or nay from each player.)

[Chaosraven]

This sounds very interesting.
So although the Low Rung Players also need the opposing side to die, they need to have the heads of their own faction eliminated to win.

Is there a reason the lower rungs don't have a minor ability?

[ChrisGrenard]

I think 5 and 6 need some sort of power. I'll think on it for a bit here.

[triggercut]

This sounds very interesting.
So although the Low Rung Players also need the opposing side to die, they need to have the heads of their own faction eliminated to win.

Is there a reason the lower rungs don't have a minor ability?

Nope, none at all, other than every game needs foot soldiers. If we can think of a way to "power" them without making them more powerful than those who rank them, I'm all for it.

My biggest concern right now: Why would people post stuff in a forum about this as a course of gameplay? In the WW games, people post to make "plays" and try to find clues based on the responses and reactions of others. I'm not sure I'm yet seeing the magical mechanism that forces the two houses into open debate among their nobility, but I think it *could* happen. I want it to be a little more necessary I suppose.

One last thing: I'm not sold on the idea that the resolution of the vote results should be revealed. Rather, I'm very open to the idea that secret votes remain secret throughout the game.

Perhaps to empower player 5 or 6, they may have revealed to them the full and actual vote breakdown of any year past they so choose.

I'm thinking that each "year" will last until:

1. a clear majority in the vote is reached, or
2. all players have a registered PM vote, and then plurality decides, or
3. at the discretion of the referee in the course of stalemate, a 24-72 hour countdown goes into effect, vote or you decline to mobilize your knights. Obviously the referee would work around weekends, holidays, known vacations/absences etc.

[Chaosraven]

Hmmm. Maybe some "limitation" of the Behind the Scenes communication?

TODAY X, Y, and Z may talk while A and B discuss. But the remaining two are restricted to public only.

Some random or predetermined formula/drawing for The Years Lines of Communication?

That way the Group would have to connect in public with their plots and twists

[stessier]

This sounds like a very cool concept and I didn't find it complicated. I especially like that the lower ranks can move up and still retain their powers. Without that, I couldn't see a reason to take out people in your own faction.

One problem I see, though, is that there is no way to hide your vote against your own team. (I don't think I would let traitors last very long.) What if a team only learns the opposite teams votes placed against them, but one person has the power to learn the full vote? Or maybe each team just learns the number of votes placed against their side and the targets (so 1 vote against 1st in line, 3 votes against 3rd in line, ect.), but not who made them. Pretend they are counting the number of knights surrounding their duchy or something.

To promote talking in the thread, what if players could be enticed to change sides? What if there was a way to give the duchies that are in anarchy to a player from the other team? If they took the new post, they would have to renounce all claims from the previous land and lose all powers. They could only switch for a post that is an increase in the line of succession. Probably would have to have a limit on the number of times you could switch.

And just so I understand, each House has it's own forum, there is the Game forum for cross-house communication, and there is the 7th in Line forum, right?

What if the vote worked like Diplomacy. Each vote had to be submitted in 3 days (or whatever). If a majority was reached before then, the vote was immediately closed. If 3 days elapse with no majority, the plurality takes it.

Another thought, pretend the votes really are the Knights a certain person controls. So if you don't cast your vote, your Knights stay at home and it is the same as canceling one vote against you. After all canceled votes are taken into account and all protections, the new highest vote is the one who is conquered.


I may be needlessly complicating your idea, but I love political intrigue.

[Scoop20906]

I like the idea, Trig.

I can throw some thoughts out there. The way I read this, it feels like it could be a game between the haves (upper ranked players) and have nots (lower ranked players).

I think the lower ranked players have to outnumber the higher ranked players but have no powers, their power comes in number of votes they can place to take down a higher ranked player.

The higher ranked players can counter this by staying united and giving deals or boons to lower ranked players. Esstenially, if you agree to not vote for me, I will offer this to you.

To make deals, people must be able to speak in private.

I know this destroys alot of the need for people to speak outloud but perhaps the main forum can be a place where people make political statements and they can make as many of these as they like.

Perhaps we can limit the number of secret conversations a player may make per round. This would make each secret contact crucial.

Those are just some thoughts but I like this idea. I'm interested to see where you go with it.

[Scoop20906]

One more thoughts...

PMs (secret communications) are limited but the limit is greater for contact players on your own team then those on the other. This can be viewed as the difficulty to contact someone on the opposing side. It allows you to make deals with the other side but limit the opportunities.

For example, during a turn you may make 10 PMs to your players on your own team but only 4 to players on the opposing team.

[triggercut]

More revisions:

--Scrap the idea of each team having a separate forum to post one or two posts per team. Put everything in the open "at court" in the regular game forum...except for the two Rank 7 players who can talk throughout the game.

--Eliminate the "reveal on resolution" when a player is eliminated from the game. Secret votes to be posted in a separate spoiler forum for perusal after the game, but not revealed during gameplay to living players.

[Lars]

I have nothing to add at the moment regarding the rules, but let me just say that it sounds like there is a fun game in there. I'll have to think about them some more, but I like the idea a lot.

[triggercut]

I've been thinking a lot on the potential of this game, and nearly had it set up, but then POOP intervened. Now that I've got POOP v.2 nearing release, I'm ready to revisit.

Two teams. One is 7 players, one is 6 players.

Backstory: The King of Britannia and his Queen and two sons and rightful heirs were summering at the Seaside Palace, when the ground beneath the foundation of the cliffside dwelling gave way and the keep fell into the sea, killing all members of the royal family and leaving Britannia leaderless. Two great noble houses--The Yorks and The lancasters--each claim the throne for themselves. These two houses arrive at the Great Palace to determine who was behind the treachery that killed the old king, and to decide who will become the new king.

The blame for the treason and deceit that killed the king and his family can be laid upon the heads of all 13 members of both houses. Gold from these 13 nobles filled the pockets of the devious killers who tunnelled under the foundation of the Seaside Palace. All 13 nobles could be found guilty of treason and regicide; if one true king is chosen, he will certainly condemn the remaining nobles to their deaths to consolidate his own power.

The rules:

1. Each game day is divided into two turns, a day and a night turn. The game begins with a day turn.
2. Each day ends when a majority of votes is placed upon a single player, who is led to the execution block by Captain Crane of the Royal Guards. The majority is a simple majority based upon remaining players in the game. If 11 players remain, the majority is 6. If 8 remain, the majority is 5. This number is not dependent on undervotes or votes caused by writs of The Church.
3. The Night Turn follows each execution. During the night, both houses may post amongst themselves on a private forum for a length of time determined by the referee (Captain Crane...that is, me).
3a. If all living players of both houses post "Asleep until morning" in their forum, the referee will automatically advance the game to the day turn.
4. The game ends when all players of one House have been eliminated.
5. Only the top three players by succession in the winning house win! The first in line is crowned King, the second is made Regent of Hibernian Lands, the third becomes Archbishop of Britannia. All remaining players of the winning Royal House are executed for treason.


Roles/order of succession:

1. Protector--may protect AT NIGHT any player on either team once per game, may protect himself twice per game. Self-protect may not be consecutive, must protect someone every turn. May give up his night protections ONE TIME ONLY to protect himself from voted execution. Doing so gives him immunity for that day and that following night from death, but after that he is un-powered.

2. Sagacity--may see the role/succession rank of any player on any team. ONE TIME power to see the roles/succession of everyone on his own team, at the cost of losing "seer" ability for the remainder of the game, and at the cost of everyone on his team learning the role of their seer.

3. The Church's Arm--Has one secret "undervote" which he may voluntarily place on any player in the game. ONE TIME ONLY power to protect himself during the day from execution that gives him immunity from death at night as well. Using this power eliminates the ability to cast undervotes for the remainder of the game.

4. Scientific--On the first night may determine the role of any slain or executed player. On every following night, he may determine the role of any *two* slain or executed player. The Scientific may choose the ONE TIME power of vivisection on a live player by killing a player at night. If he does this, he will no longer be able to use his "coroner" skill the remainder of the game. This use may be blocked by protection, and all consequences of a block of the Ambitious player's assassins will apply. (See below).

5. The Ambitious--This player has brought his assassins to court in secret. During every night turn, The Ambitious may kill any player on either team each night. If The Ambitious attacks a protected player, his role is revealed to the entire group of players and his attack is unsuccessful. He is subject to church condemnation--the Church places two automatic votes against The Ambitious, thereby reducing the number of player votes to execute him. These votes are in addition to the votes of Player 3, The Church's Arm. Anyone caught in an assassination or Vivisection attempt is subject to this Papal writ on the day turn following the night they were caught in the act.

6. The Betrayers--The two players at rank 6 for each house may PM with one another freely throughout all turns in the game.

7. The Bastard--Rumors have existed for years that someone in the House Of York is actually the King's true and rightful heir. Player 7 can at any time in the game claim the number one spot in the line of succession for the throne of his respective house. This usurpation will be announced to every player in-game, so The Bastard is well-advised to keeping quiet as long as possible about his status. If The Bastard announces during the day turn, he is immune from attack that night. If he announces at night, he is NOT immune from execution the following day.

Backstory: The King of Britannia and his Queen and two sons and rightful heirs were summering at the Seaside Palace, when the ground beneath the foundation of the cliffside dwelling gave way and the keep fell into the sea, killing all members of the royal family and leaving Britannia leaderless. Two great noble houses--The Yorks and The lancasters--each claim the throne for themselves. These two houses arrive at the Great Palace to determine who was behind the treachery that killed the old king, and to decide who will become the new king.

The blame for the treason and deceit that killed the king and his family can be laid upon the heads of all 13 members of both houses. Gold from these 13 nobles filled the pockets of the devious killers who tunnelled under the foundation of the Seaside Palace. All 13 nobles could be found guilty of treason and regicide; if one true king is chosen, he will certainly condemn the remaining nobles to their deaths to consolidate his own power.

The rules:

1. Each game day is divided into two turns, a day and a night turn. The game begins with a day turn.
2. Each day ends when a majority of votes is placed upon a single player, who is led to the execution block by Captain Crane of the Royal Guards. The majority is a simple majority based upon remaining players in the game. If 11 players remain, the majority is 6. If 8 remain, the majority is 5. This number is not dependent on undervotes or votes caused by writs of The Church.
3. The Night Turn follows each execution. During the night, both houses may post amongst themselves on a private forum for a length of time determined by the referee (Captain Crane...that is, me).
3a. If all living players of both houses post "Asleep until morning" in their forum, the referee will automatically advance the game to the day turn.
4. The game ends when all players of one House have been eliminated.
5. Only the top three players by succession in the winning house win! The first in line is crowned King, the second is made Regent of Hibernian Lands, the third becomes Archbishop of Britannia. All remaining players of the winning Royal House are executed for treason.


Thoughts?

[Chaosraven]

Is this still using the Elimination moves the Player up?


For example:

4. Scientific--The Scientific may choose the ONE TIME power of vivisection on a live player by killing a player at night.

5. The Ambitious-- During every night turn, The Ambitious may kill any player on either team each night.

If the Scientific were to vivisect 1,2, or 3 within his own house, he moves up to 3 (assuming a 1 and 2 still survive)?

And this gives the potential for 2-4 Kills per night?
1 for each Ambitious, plus a possible pair of Scientific?

6. The Betrayers--The two players at rank 6 for each house may PM with one another freely throughout all turns in the game.

Seems to me this duo is fated to cease to exist within 1 Day if Succession moves them up

[triggercut]

I should've clarified. All players retain the powers they begin the game with, and only those powers, for the entirety of the game.

It would be possible for the player who can assassinate to move up the ladder to be first in line, and still be killing people off.

[Chaosraven]

I should've clarified. All players retain the powers they begin the game with, and only those powers, for the entirety of the game.

It would be possible for the player who can assassinate to move up the ladder to be first in line, and still be killing people off.

Got it.

I had a vague recollection of Moving up the Ladder.

So what happens if the Ambitious of One Side is eliminated?
Or both?
No more killing at Night for that side (other than Single Use Scientific)?

[triggercut]

Yep, it's all day kills from that point. I was thinking of replacing the vivisection one-time power with giving the Scientific the option twice during the game at night to forego doing a coroner scan and instead do a self-protect. With 13 players, the idea would be make most of the game strategy happen during day turns with voting and discussion.

Oh, and obviously everyone tries to keep their role/succession rank hidden from all players, including their teammates, for as long as possible.

[Chaosraven]

Yep, it's all day kills from that point. I was thinking of replacing the vivisection one-time power with giving the Scientific the option twice during the game at night to forego doing a coroner scan and instead do a self-protect. With 13 players, the idea would be make most of the game strategy happen during day turns with voting and discussion.

Oh, and obviously everyone tries to keep their role/succession rank hidden from all players, including their teammates, for as long as possible.

Obviously, as letting #5 know yer #3 makes you a helluva target.

I think this would be lots of fun

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With the backlog of games here, I don't know if this game would be "different" enough from a WW game to run concurrently, but I suspect not. I may run it as a "beta" at Quarter To Three and see what happens.

[Chaosraven]

at Quarter To Three

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at Quarter To Three

I'll reserve a spot for this game after whichever game was currently last in order.

[stessier]

This does sound great. Talk about paranoia!

[Grundbegriff]

In

[Chaosraven]

I'm In, whether it runs with or after...

[stessier]

I'm in whenever you can get it started.

This is the game I was dreaming of when I wanted everyone to feel paranoid in a forum. I'm going to need a cheat sheet to keep track of all the names, though.

[Austin]

I don't recall whether I was in or not but I am.