Israel–United States relations and associated politics

[Victoria Raverna]

Palestinian's propaganda?



Sanders would be a better president and human being than Biden.

[Blackhawk]

VR and malichor make very serious charges which require evidence they haven’t provided

The legitimacy of the claims aside, VR and Malchior didn't make any charges. They're individuals giving their opinions, not some representative of the justice system. People make statements all the time that also happen to have legal definitions that require evidence. The Alec Baldwin thread is packed with them, for instance. Murder, liable, theft, rape, negligence, trespassing - we see words like that all the time with no thought toward the legal definition, and they aren't shouted down for lack of evidence.

Giving personal thoughts and opinions doesn't require evidence.

[gbasden]

If someone reads a story about Israel advocating that the refugees go to a certain region, or follow a certain path, to clear out of the way of harm, and then Israel bombs that same region, it's not simply emotional to say that's questionable at best and bad at worst. That's moral. You seem to have a hard time understanding that moral reactions, while sometimes intertwined with emotional, are valid. VR, Blackhawk, Malchior, YellowKing, myself and possibly others have offered reactions/judgments based on our morals. Just because they don't match up with your legal definition or standards of proof doesn't render those invalid. They might be unpersuasive to you, and they might be antithetical to the way you look at or approach the world, but they're not invalid.

Thank you. Very well put.

[Victoria Raverna]

Interesting argument against accusing people who opposed Israel's war crime with anti-semitism:

[YellowKing]

That cuts both ways, doesn't it? In this thread we've seen people who didn't come down sufficiently hard enough on Israel accused of condoning war crimes.

At the end of the day, I think we're all roughly on the same page and for some reason fighting over our degree of commitment to one side or the other. And many of us (like me) have no side, but that, in and of itself, becomes an accusation.

[Victoria Raverna]

Did you watch the video and listen to his reason why it is bad?

[Exodor]

I've lost track--whose war crimes are we condemning?

IMHO, both Hamas and the IDF have behaved monstrously. Both deserve condemnation, and neither is excused by the other.

Both?

The difference is only one of those groups has the monetary and military backing of the US (and by extension me through my tax dollars). I don't want my money going contributing to war crimes.

[YellowKing]

Did you watch the video and listen to his reason why it is bad?

I did, and I'm not disagreeing with it at all. I'm just pointing out that from the other side of the coin, pointing out that Hamas committed terrible atrocities doesn't automatically equate to defending Israel's response. Some in this thread are particularly one-sided on the issue, and seem to have a problem with people who either refuse to take sides, or actively condemn both sides.

[Pyperkub]

Pressure apparently mounting on Netanyahu

More than 40 senior former Israeli national security officials, celebrated scientists and prominent business leaders have sent a letter to Israel’s president and speaker of parliament demanding that Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu be removed from office for posing what they say is an “existential” threat to the country. ...

...“We believe that Netanyahu bears primary responsibility for creating the circumstances leading to the brutal massacre of over 1,200 Israelis and others, the injury of over 4,500, and the kidnapping of more than 230 individuals, of whom over 130 are still held in Hamas captivity,” it reads. “The victim’s blood is on Netanyahu’s hands.” ...

... The letter’s signatories accuse Netanyahu of spending years propping up Hamas in Gaza at the expense of the Palestinian Authority, which the US has argued should be revitalized to govern both the West Bank and Gaza.

CNN has reported that for years Qatar delivered cash-filled suitcases to Gaza with Netanyahu’s blessing, despite concerns from his own government. The money was intended to pay civil servants’ salaries and retirees’ benefits. It is now delivered via bank transfers rather than in cash, and as recently as last month, Qatar said it was continuing to pay it.

[Victoria Raverna]

Did you watch the video and listen to his reason why it is bad?

I did, and I'm not disagreeing with it at all. I'm just pointing out that from the other side of the coin, pointing out that Hamas committed terrible atrocities doesn't automatically equate to defending Israel's response. Some in this thread are particularly one-sided on the issue, and seem to have a problem with people who either refuse to take sides, or actively condemn both sides.

Then I guess you misunderstood my point. It is not about pointing finger on the other side. It is about equating someone that is anti Israel's bad actions as anti-Jews is bad for Jews since now you can't separate those racist people who hates Jews with people who just disagree with Israel's action. It'll dangerous for Jews since then when ADL or anyone else report about rise of actual racist anti-Jews, people are not going take it serious since they think it is just a rise of people who are against Israel's bad actions.

It is dangerous to Palestinians when people equate Palestinians with Hamas. When Hamas is doing bad things, it is the Palestinians that got attacked for it, not just those that support Hamas. Hamas is doing evil things = Palestinians are animals. It can be the same with Jews.

[Victoria Raverna]

ICJ's Provisional ruling:


Very weak and not even asked for a ceasefire.

[Zarathud]

Reread that sentence. That logic is as contorted as the sentence.

The Israeli view is that they’re under attack. Not just October 7, but each rocket attack before and after. For them, there is anti-Semitic action with each rocket or rock or statement . While you focus on the news of Palestinian death and suffering, THEIR moral outrage and insecurity is based on their lived experience. If feelings matter, then ALL feelings matter and not just those supporting your viewpoint.

Fear makes people do stupid and counterproductive things. Netanyahu can take advantage of that until the war is over — and a unilateral cease-fire by Israel will only prolong his coalition.

[Kurth]

Did you watch the video and listen to his reason why it is bad?

I did, and I'm not disagreeing with it at all. I'm just pointing out that from the other side of the coin, pointing out that Hamas committed terrible atrocities doesn't automatically equate to defending Israel's response. Some in this thread are particularly one-sided on the issue, and seem to have a problem with people who either refuse to take sides, or actively condemn both sides.

Then I guess you misunderstood my point. It is not about pointing finger on the other side. It is about equating someone that is anti Israel's bad actions as anti-Jews is bad for Jews since now you can't separate those racist people who hates Jews with people who just disagree with Israel's action. It'll dangerous for Jews since then when ADL or anyone else report about rise of actual racist anti-Jews, people are not going take it serious since they think it is just a rise of people who are against Israel's bad actions.

Again, surprisingly, I'm more or less with VR on this. As I've stated previously, I'm particularly dubious of claims that people arguing against Israeli policy or action are inherently anti-semitic. Is there some degree of overlap? Absolutely. Is it a potential flag that someone may harbor anti-semitic sentiments, sure. Is it something we should assume when we hear someone condemning Israeli action or even Zionism itself? Absolutely not.

And I think VR is right that playing the anti-semitism card as a knee-jerk reaction to criticism of Israel is dangerous to the extent it dilutes what it really means to be anti-semitic, something especially dangerous given the overwhelming evidence that true anti-semitism is on the rise globally.

It is dangerous to Palestinians when people equate Palestinians with Hamas. When Hamas is doing bad things, it is the Palestinians that got attacked for it, not just those that support Hamas. Hamas is doing evil things = Palestinians are animals. It can be the same with Jews.

And now, my agreement with VR has come to an end. As we discussed previously, equating being Palestinian with being Jewish is wrong. There is no Palestinian ethnicity.

Palestinians are people who live in or once lived in the nation state claimed as Palestine. Most Palestinians are Arab. Arabs live in many countries that are not Palestine.

Israelis are people who live in or once lived in the nation state claimed as Israel. Most Israelis are Jewish (some are Arab). Jews live in many countries that are not Israel.

If you want to draw a parallel to anti-semitism, the appropriate parallel would be anti-Arab, not anti-Palestinian. While you might argue that Palestinians are an ethnonational group, my understanding is that the prevailing view is that Palestinian is much, much more a nationality than it is an ethnicity. And that's the reason why VR's logic falls apart.

As a nationality, the Palestinians in Gaza are governed by Hamas, who they elected (albeit under shitty conditions and a long time ago). Arguments that Palestinians in Gaza share some responsibility for what Hamas does are not without basis. Those arguments may be wrong for a number of reasons, but they're not made out of whole cloth.

As a nationality, Israelis are governed by Netanyahu and his hard right coalition. Arguments that Israelis share some responsibility for what Netanyahu's hard right government does are not without basis. Those arguments may be wrong for a number of reasons, but they're also not made out of whole cloth.

So, no, blaming Palestinians in Gaza for the actions of Hamas is not the same thing as blaming Jews for the actions of Israel.

[Unagi]

[Dogstar]

Reread that sentence. That logic is as contorted as the sentence.

The Israeli view is that they’re under attack. Not just October 7, but each rocket attack before and after. For them, there is anti-Semitic action with each rocket or rock or statement . While you focus on the news of Palestinian death and suffering, THEIR moral outrage and insecurity is based on their lived experience. If feelings matter, then ALL feelings matter and not just those supporting your viewpoint.

Fear makes people do stupid and counterproductive things. Netanyahu can take advantage of that until the war is over — and a unilateral cease-fire by Israel will only prolong his coalition.

So you're saying that the Israelis have a different moral code than I and possibly some others do? I can understand that. They can operate on that basis; there's little I or anyone else can reasonably do about that. However, they shouldn't mistake that their actions don't come without responsibility, that there's a price for committing amoral acts (as perceived by others). If others perceive their actions as wrong, that can take the form of simple critiques from forum members, the conditioning of US tax dollars if so determined, judgments from The Hague, UN sanctions, and so on and so forth.

Asking/expecting/hoping our ally to be, that they will be, the good guy isn't wrong. Hoping that our tax dollars aren't enabling or contributing to amoral acts as we perceive them isn't wrong. I don't think anyone is stating Israel doesn't have the right to defend itself, and neither is anyone expressing approval or endorsing Hamas or any of its actions, or of anti-Semitism.

I'm hard-pressed to think of nations, whether internally or externally, that let people or nations do whatever they want in response to attacks without critique or responsibility, no matter their experience, their fear, or insecurity. Those are mitigating factors to be considered, for sure, but there's no ultimate "get out of jail free" card for actions people or societies consider amoral. I'm not sure why you think Israel should be the exception.

[Victoria Raverna]

And now, my agreement with VR has come to an end. As we discussed previously, equating being Palestinian with being Jewish is wrong. There is no Palestinian ethnicity.

Palestinians are people who live in or once lived in the nation state claimed as Palestine. Most Palestinians are Arab. Arabs live in many countries that are not Palestine.

Israelis are people who live in or once lived in the nation state claimed as Israel. Most Israelis are Jewish (some are Arab). Jews live in many countries that are not Israel.

If you want to draw a parallel to anti-semitism, the appropriate parallel would be anti-Arab, not anti-Palestinian. While you might argue that Palestinians are an ethnonational group, my understanding is that the prevailing view is that Palestinian is much, much more a nationality than it is an ethnicity. And that's the reason why VR's logic falls apart.

As a nationality, the Palestinians in Gaza are governed by Hamas, who they elected (albeit under shitty conditions and a long time ago). Arguments that Palestinians in Gaza share some responsibility for what Hamas does are not without basis. Those arguments may be wrong for a number of reasons, but they're not made out of whole cloth.

As a nationality, Israelis are governed by Netanyahu and his hard right coalition. Arguments that Israelis share some responsibility for what Netanyahu's hard right government does are not without basis. Those arguments may be wrong for a number of reasons, but they're also not made out of whole cloth.

So, no, blaming Palestinians in Gaza for the actions of Hamas is not the same thing as blaming Jews for the actions of Israel.

While maybe there is no Palestinian ethnicity, there are people that are Palestinians. Or if you think they just Arab, it is even worse since then it'll be equate Hamas = Arab. Hamas does bad things = Arab are animals. The problem is that there is no such thing as Gaza Palestinians when someone equate Hamas with Palestinians. It'll affect all Palestinians.

But you also misunderstood why I brought up Palestinians and then say Jews can be the same. I meant when you equate Israel with Jews then all Jews can be seen to be responsible for Israel actions including non Israeli. Including those that opposed israel's actions. Including those that support Palestinians. So by equating Israel with Jews, ADL actually help increase real anti-semitism since people can transform hatred for what Israel does to Palestinians into hatred of all Jews.

[Victoria Raverna]

Netanyahu can take advantage of that until the war is over — and a unilateral cease-fire by Israel will only prolong his coalition.

Then I guess Netanyahu is stupid for rejecting unilateral cease fire?

He doesn't want to prolong his coalition?

[Zarathud]

Netanyahu has to be committed to "winning" the war by "defeating" Hamas. In trying to score a cheap point, VR, you're demonstrating an inability to understand the political dynamics that limit him.

Israel considers itself under attack, and they're right. Hamas delivered on threats they've made for decades, and were successful in an attack that should have been thwarted by Netanyahu's government. A threat the US agreed to help Israel contain as an ally.

When attacked on 9/11, the U.S. retaliated by attacking ISIS and invading Iraq/Afghanistan. Those are two reasons among many that the U.S. doesn't have much leverage. We defend our allies, even if they are acting badly. We negotiate in the backroom, and identify strategies that will achieve better results.

It's ridiculous to claim payment of "your tax dollars" creates moral authority. We don't set national security policy and our alliances based on the beliefs of Americans who pay the most taxes. That argument would officially give the 5% control because they pay 60% of all federal income taxes (the top 1% alone pay 40% of all federal income taxes). While its conclusions on tax policy are questionable, see the heritage foundation.

[Victoria Raverna]

Apparently some of the story about the brutality of Hamas on October 7th are not true. Hamas was brutal on October 7th but apparently some things that they were accused of doing were not true.

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/202 ... 77f9b50000

In an interview on the Israeli Channel 14, a senior Israeli army officer made unverified claims regarding the identity of some of the victims of the Hamas October 7 assault on Kibbutz Be'eri.

The officer, Lt. Col. Guy Basson, deputy commander of the Kfir Brigade, claimed that eight infants were murdered in the communal nursery, and that an Auschwitz survivor called Genia was also murdered. These incidents described in the interview, which aired on Saturday night, never happened.

Speaking to Channel 14's Erel Segal, Basson said: "We get to Kibbutz Be'eri, and I'm confronted with two main scenarios. One was from the children's nursery… where they were simply slaughtered and murdered." Segal asked him in response," Did you see the children inside…?" to which Basson replies: "A house. Eight babies, eight dead babies."

Basson later added: "Another image that stuck with me is Genia, of blessed memory, an elderly woman from Kibbutz Be'eri. "I see the number engraved on her arm, and you say to yourself, she went through the Holocaust in Auschwitz and ended up dying on Kibbutz Be'eri."

Findings indicate that there is no Holocaust survivor named Genia in Be'eri, and as far as is known, no one by that name ever lived on the kibbutz. Additionally, none of the victims of the Be'eri massacre were Holocaust survivors.

Regarding the claim that eight babies were murdered in a kibbutz nursery, to this day there is no known case in any of the surrounding communities where children from several families were murdered together. In Kibbutz Be'eri, one baby, Mila Cohen, 10 months old, was murdered on October 7, along with her father, Ohad.

Basson also spoke about the fighting in Be'eri. "I fired tank shells at terrorists inside the kibbutz," he said. When asked to comment on the fact that Division 99 commander, Brig. Gen. Barak Hiram, ordered a tank to fire at a house where hostages were being held, he said: "As someone who was there and saw things from up close, there was no disproportionate or indiscriminate fire. We only did so after trying to exhaust every avenue that does not harm our forces… it's an honor to wear a uniform and protect our residents."

A Kibbutz Be'eri spokesperson rejected the claims, and said, "Nearly one hundred people were murdered on Kibbutz Be'eri, and the community suffered hundreds of heartbreaking incidents on that Black Saturday and over the past months, especially regarding the hostages. However, incidents such as eight murdered babies and a murdered Holocaust survivor named Genia – did not happen."

An IDF spokesperson said, "The events in question will be investigated and examined. There was no intention to describe a reality that didn't happen, and we apologize if anyone was offended. We will set the record straight and clarify to all commanders involved in the media effort."

Channel 14 declined to respond, and the article still appears on its YouTube and X feeds.

In another recent incident, the Israel Police spokesman for foreign media, Sgt. Dean Elsdunne, during a briefing in Kfar Azza, echoed an incorrect claim made in the past by a ZAKA member that "pregnant women were sliced open" during the terrorist attack.

A video allegedly depicting the murder of a pregnant woman circulated on social media in October, but this was refuted by the Fake Reporter fact-checking group and other sources, who said that the video was not filmed in Israel.

A police source said that "after the matter was checked, the incident was clarified to the police officer."

Why they still feel the need to lie about the brutality when there are enough real example of Hamas brutality without having to make things up.

Also remember the 40 beheaded babies. That was also not true. At the location of reported 40 beheaded babies, total of 46 civilians were killed and the youngest one was 14 years old. So no single baby killed. So they couldn't be 40 beheaded babies since there wasn't even a single dead baby.

https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/2 ... t-7-deaths

The identities and ages of civilian victims are available via Bituah Leumi, Israel's social security agency.

Its website lists 695 people killed during the attack, with names and the circumstances of their deaths.

Among them are 36 children, including 20 under 15 years old and 10 killed by rockets.

The youngest victim was 10-month-old Mila Cohen, shot and killed at Kibbutz Beeri.

An entire family, including three children aged between two and six, were killed in their home at Kibbutz Nir Oz.

Elsewhere, two brothers aged five and eight were shot dead in their car with their parents.

A five-year-old boy was killed in the street by a rocket.

The data gives a clear picture of the scale of the atrocities at the Supernova music festival in Reim where 364 people were killed.

But it also invalidates some statements by Israeli authorities in the days following the attack.

In particular, a claim made on October 10 on the government's official X (formerly Twitter) account spoke of "40 babies murdered" at Kfar Aza kibbutz, based on a report by i24NEWS channel.

Questioned by AFP the following day, Israel's foreign ministry, which runs the X account, said it could not "confirm any number at this stage".

According to Bituah Leumi, 46 civilians were killed in Kfar Aza, the youngest 14 years old.

Another testimony called into question was that on October 27 by Colonel Golan Vach, head of the army's search and rescue unit, who told a group of journalists, including one from AFP, that he "personally" transported "a decapitated baby" found in the arms of his mother in the Beeri kibbutz.

According to Bituah Leumi, only one baby was killed in Beeri: the 10-month-old Mila Cohen, whose mother survived.

Army spokespersons did not respond to queries by AFP.

[Unagi]

Apparently some of the story about the brutality of Hamas on October 7th are not true. Hamas was brutal on October 7th but apparently some things that they were accused of doing were not true.

Honestly don't care. I'm sure it's 100% accurate that some of the things they were accused of doing were not true. I don't need to have that proven to me with a wall of text, and it doesn't move the bar for them one inch.

Other than forcing the world's eye, not a single thing about October 7th helped the Palestinian people, and Hamas in every way has 'not helped the Palestinian people' live in peace with Israel.

Hamas are horrible terrorists. That they didn't rape Jane but they did rape Jenny, Jill, and their mother doesn't make a bit of difference.

I don't see what point you hope to make with this.

I suppose it's this: " Israel is doing horrible horrible things, so horrible that it may feel the need to justify it with examples of equal brutality - but they have to make it up. "

Fine. That's a point, but I also don't think it matters. It also makes it sound a little like what Hamas actually certainly did do, isn't "bad enough"...

I have (as many people here do) a very good idea about what it is that Israel is doing that is quite horrible - they have crossed the line, Period.

And Hamas, we know what they did - and what they openly say they want to do, etc, etc. They have no leg to stand on here, save 'being Palestinian'.

[Dogstar]

Netanyahu has to be committed to "winning" the war by "defeating" Hamas. In trying to score a cheap point, VR, you're demonstrating an inability to understand the political dynamics that limit him.

One might offer that in some of his methods to "defeat" Hamas, Netanyahu is creating generations of individuals who will fear, distrust, judge, and/or possibly even hate Israel, both within Gaza and elsewhere, which seems counterproductive.

It's ridiculous to claim payment of "your tax dollars" creates moral authority. We don't set national security policy and our alliances based on the beliefs of Americans who pay the most taxes. That argument would officially give the 5% control because they pay 60% of all federal income taxes (the top 1% alone pay 40% of all federal income taxes). While its conclusions on tax policy are questionable, see the heritage foundation.

You really can't see past the logic side of things, can you? People form moral judgments all the time and act, speak or believe accordingly. How much power their judgment has depends on a multitude of factors, not least of which is how many other people share it. In this instance, if enough people paying tax dollars protest, or threaten not to vote for the politician supporting the policy/ally, then that policy will likely start to shift (Vietnam, Iraq, Ukraine, and so on). I'm pretty sure that no one here is arguing that they have the moral authority to rewrite US policy individually. It's an Internet forum; we're expressing our displeasure due to our own moral codes over something that is happening, occasionally seeking consensus, information or debate — that's a fair chunk of P&R. As for myself, and myself only, I'm offering that the notion that "only God can judge me" doesn't function well on an individual, societal, or international level; actions often come with judgment and potentially consequences.

[Victoria Raverna]

Apparently some of the story about the brutality of Hamas on October 7th are not true. Hamas was brutal on October 7th but apparently some things that they were accused of doing were not true.

Honestly don't care. I'm sure it's 100% accurate that some of the things they were accused of doing were not true. I don't need to have that proven to me with a wall of text, and it doesn't move the bar for them one inch.

Other than forcing the world's eye, not a single thing about October 7th helped the Palestinian people, and Hamas in every way has 'not helped the Palestinian people' live in peace with Israel.

Hamas are horrible terrorists. That they didn't rape Jane but they did rape Jenny, Jill, and their mother doesn't make a bit of difference.

I don't see what point you hope to make with this.

I suppose it's this: " Israel is doing horrible horrible things, so horrible that it may feel the need to justify it with examples of equal brutality - but they have to make it up. "

Fine. That's a point, but I also don't think it matters. It also makes it sound a little like what Hamas actually certainly did do, isn't "bad enough"...

I have (as many people here do) a very good idea about what it is that Israel is doing that is quite horrible - they have crossed the line, Period.

And Hamas, we know what they did - and what they openly say they want to do, etc, etc. They have no leg to stand on here, save 'being Palestinian'.

You don't care about the truth?

Claim: 40 beheaded babies (Biden also claimed this) Fact: no baby killed in that location. Youngest person killed was a 14 years old.

Claim: 8 kids/babies in a children's nursery killed. Fact: No kids/babies were killed in that nursery. There was a baby killed but not in any nursery and he was killed with his father.

Claim: Holocaust survivor killed. Fact: No holocaust survivor were killed on October 7th.

As my point? I think truth matters. When Israel or Trump or Biden claim something, it is important that there is a fact check to see if it is truth or not.

[Victoria Raverna]

A clown:

[Zarathud]

One might offer that in some of his methods to "defeat" Hamas, Netanyahu is creating generations of individuals who will fear, distrust, judge, and/or possibly even hate Israel, both within Gaza and elsewhere, which seems counterproductive.

Ultimately, I agree Israel’s conduct is going to judged by its consequences. From the start, I supported President Biden’s warning to Israel on their tactics. I still don’t dispute it, but the arguments aren’t about the “best” strategy — it’s about morality.

You really can't see past the logic side of things, can you? People form moral judgments all the time and act, speak or believe accordingly.

Sure, vote your conscience and change policy. But that’s not was argued — demanding others ignore their morality or a US ally, especially those in a war, because a poster doesn’t want to have their tax dollars “used for genocide.” I argue these terms not because I want to, but because it’s the basis of the pro-Palestinian argument and propaganda.

The morality in this situation is in the context of a very complex historical, political and legal situation as well as supporting a strategic ally during war. And I have never been a fan of bleeding heart liberal progressivism. I was once a Bush Sr. Republican until Clinton and Obama showed a better way and I saw early on the insanity that eventually led to the current GOP. Lord Mortis could also point out that I’ve been a Biden supporter even during the Obama years, as I know he’s thinking it. It’s not that I can’t see morality, it’s that I disagree.

Even as a tax lawyer, it doesn’t bother me when people think I’m a bad guy. Hazard of the job.

[Zarathud]

VR, you are now actively defending actions of Hamas. Shame on you.

If you cared about the truth, you wouldn’t post propaganda. Or fact-check your own side, too.

[LawBeefaroni]

So you're saying that the Israelis have a different moral code than I and possibly some others do? I can understand that. They can operate on that basis; there's little I or anyone else can reasonably do about that. However, they shouldn't mistake that their actions don't come without responsibility, that there's a price for committing amoral acts (as perceived by others). If others perceive their actions as wrong, that can take the form of simple critiques from forum members, the conditioning of US tax dollars if so determined, judgments from The Hague, UN sanctions, and so on and so forth.

Welcome to the latest proxy war. This is now US/allies vs. Iran/allies.

Even China is telling Iran to chill.

[Victoria Raverna]

Very fast response, so it is very easy to stop sending aids, don't need weeks or months to do it:

[Victoria Raverna]

VR, you are now actively defending actions of Hamas. Shame on you.

If you cared about the truth, you wouldn’t post propaganda. Or fact-check your own side, too.

So wee are not allowed to fact check claims by IDF or Israel? To show that the claim is false = supporting Hamas?

If I posted something that is not true, then feel free to provide link to show that I'm wrong. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. I'm not going to accuse you of being racist or support genocide if you do that.

[Zarathud]

If you were fact checking, you would post proof or links. Even if you disputed individual deaths (holocaust survivor), you don’t get that nitpicking details of a surprise attack starting a war is going to justify a military response. And support from that nations allies.

Stop constantly posting propaganda, it’s fucking ridiculous.

[Victoria Raverna]

If you were fact checking, you would post proof or links. Even if you disputed individual deaths (holocaust survivor), you don’t get that nitpicking details of a surprise attack starting a war is going to justify a military response. And support from that nations allies.

Stop constantly posting propaganda, it’s fucking ridiculous.

Posting link to https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/202 ... 77f9b50000 is propaganda?

Posting link to https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/2 ... t-7-deaths is propaganda?

Haaretz and france24.com are spreading Palestinian propaganda or actively defending actions of Hamas?

It's ridiculous for you to claim every single article that go against Israel or Biden as propaganda. You're just like a MAGA Trumper but instead of supporting Trump, you blindly support Biden and Israel.

[Unagi]

You don't care about the truth?

Claim: 40 beheaded babies (Biden also claimed this) Fact: no baby killed in that location. Youngest person killed was a 14 years old.

Claim: 8 kids/babies in a children's nursery killed. Fact: No kids/babies were killed in that nursery. There was a baby killed but not in any nursery and he was killed with his father.

Claim: Holocaust survivor killed. Fact: No holocaust survivor were killed on October 7th.

As my point? I think truth matters. When Israel or Trump or Biden claim something, it is important that there is a fact check to see if it is truth or not.

I do care about the truth. I am saying these reported truths don't really change a thing.

Truth matters.

If someone says to me, "You know my problem with Hamas is that whole beheading babies thing". - I will be sure to let them know that the truth is no one under a certain age was beheaded.
If someone says to me, "You know my problem with Hamas is those 8 kids killed at the daycare center". - I will be sure to let them know the only baby killed was actually with its father.
If someone says to me, "You know my problem with Hamas is that one Holocaust survivor that was killed". - I will be sure to let them know Oct 7th claimed no Holocaust survivors.

And, if someone says to me, "You know my big beef with Israel is how it promoted all those exaggerated details regarding some of the Oct 7th attacks" - I will be sure to let them know Israel has also been bombing the shit out of civilians while blindly hunting for a handful of Hamas soldiers.

I am saying that the two sides are not being weighed against each other. And I'm saying that both sides have, IMO, crossed the line so far as to make the above points nearly pointless.

[Zarathud]

The news got stories wrong after a massacre? Unsurprising. Trying to make that an indictment of Israel is just pathetic. Defending Hamas is worse. “They killed the parents and kidnapped the child instead of beheading or raping” is a shit argument.

I’m not the one posting links to social media “news.” But the majority of what you post VR (multiple times daily) is clearly targeted towards emotional response or selective news/opinion showing one side. Anyone paying attention will see the propaganda.

I don’t criticize everything you post. That would be exhausting and pointless. And it’s not my goddamn job. Agitating against Israel appears to be yours lately.

[Blackhawk]

It still baffles me how anyone can support either side in this. That's not a refusal to try and see other peoples' points of view, it's confusion as to how anyone can look at what either side has done (going back decades) and say, "Yeah, I'm OK with that." Both sides were treated horribly by the other. Both sides felt backed into a corner. Both sides have been the victim, and both sides have been the aggressor at different times. Both sides responded in ways that are awful.

No, that does not mean that they're the same. They've done different wrongs to different degrees with different motivations against different targets. But neither side is in the right. And when that happens, you either decry both, or you support the (realistic) outcome that results in the least harm. You don't just choose your favorite bad guy to root for.

Or you do both - you speak up and decry both, but support the action that will bring about the best result.

[Dogstar]

Very much what Blackhawk said.


This is a good read (lifted from a similar thread over at QT3) about the ICJ ruling and the current situation.

8. The sickening logic of this war is that both sides want to see just how much killing and death they can get away with to further their ultimate goals, neither of which are particularly realistic in the final analysis. Israel’s wager is that they can such inflict a terrible price for October 7th that it will beat the Gazans finally into submission. Hamas’s gamble is that Israel, by overreaching, will harm itself more than it can harm Hamas, a proposition for which they are clearly willing to sacrifice tens of thousands of Palestinian children. Hamas found a fault-line in Israel’s diplomatic and military priorities, a chink in Israel’s armor—a contradiction, if you will—between Israel’s need for friends abroad and its doctrine of overwhelming force applied to its enemies. The only “realistic” conclusion to all this is that Palestinians and Israelis need to come to some modus vivendi and that neither side has the strength to impose dream-world “final solutions” of total destruction on the other party, the pursuit of which leave behind the realm of war and politics and unambiguously involve genocide.

[Blackhawk]

Hamas’s gamble is that Israel, by overreaching, will harm itself more than it can harm Hamas

They were right. "Hamas" isn't the fighters in Gaza. Hamas is the leadership, combined with the political manipulation and support of Israel's enemies, combined with a hatred of Israel. The fighters in Gaza are the tools to be manipulated to hurt Israel. If they use up those tools, they'll find more. Wipe every last one of the fighters in Gaza out, and Hamas will be stronger, because the leadership won't be affected, the support of Israel's enemies will remain and be validated, and the hatred of Israel among their neighbors will be stronger than ever. Even if the name "Hamas" disappears, the entity will remain.

And at the same time, Israel has always been surrounded by enemies, but bolstered by allies and international goodwill. They've lost much of that, and will likely lose more before this is over.

In other words, no matter how this turns out, Hamas has won.

[LawBeefaroni]

See my previous statement about Iran. Hamas leadership is sitting in palaces in Qatar and Iran with piles of money, the finest scotch, and yachts full of prostitutes. The fighters in Gaza are their tools, just as Hamas leaders are tools of Iran and Lebanon.

Incidentally, how does that 2023 World Cup look now?

[Kurth]

Very much what Blackhawk said.


This is a good read (lifted from a similar thread over at QT3) about the ICJ ruling and the current situation.

Israel’s wager is that they can such inflict a terrible price for October 7th that it will beat the Gazans finally into submission.

I’m not sure this really reflects Israel’s basic position. Israel’s actions in Gaza are not intended to send a message to the Gazans. Israel isn’t stupid or blind to the situation in Gaza. I think Israel’s leaders know that the Gazans have little to no ability to impact what Hamas does. That was true before 10/7 and it will be true after this war is over.

Israel is sending a message, certainly. But the audience for that message isn’t Gazans: It’s Hamas and Hezbollah and Iran and all the other groups and countries surrounding Israel that are sworn to its destruction.

Israel doesn’t believe the Gazans have power, so messaging them is pointless.

“Beating the Gazans into submission” makes no sense. In many respects, Hamas has already done that.

[Victoria Raverna]

CNN spreading Palestinian propaganda:

[Victoria Raverna]

I'm not going to link anything since I have already linked the news about US, UK and other countries cut off fund for UNRWA. The reason was an allegation from Israel Military Intelligence that 12 UNRWA staffs were involved in October 7th attacks on Israel. You can see how fast the response was. Israel made accusation and immediately less than 24 hours after that, US and others cut off total funding for UNRWA. The timing of this is suspicious. A few hours after ICJ's ruling that asked for more humanitarian aid for Gaza civilians, the fund for the organization that have been working in Gaza to provide humanitarian aid to Gaza is cut.

Now It is not surprising to me that some UNRWA staffs are members of Hamas or helping Hamas. There are around 13000 UNRWA staffs in Gaza and a lot of them are local Gaza Palestinians. It is reasonable to expect some of them to side with Hamas or members of Hamas. But to cut off total funding for UNRWA based on accusation that 12 out of 13000 UNRWA staffs when Gaza civilians need more humanitarian aids not less is very bad. 12 out of 13000 in Gaza. Or 12 out of over 30000 total staffs of UNRWA around the world.

It is like if there are an allegation that 12 staffs of United States Department of Health and Human Services got involved with a crime, then the funding for the whole United States Department of Health and Human Services is stopped.

Now compare that to IDF members killing hostages with white flag which was not just an allegation. Or the allegation that IDF or Israel is breaking laws. US didn't stop any aids to Israel. Bernie Sanders' proposal to ask State department to check and give report if IDF/Israel is breaking any law using aids from US was rejected. So not even want to look at if Israel is breaking any law.

So over 20000 killed in Gaza and that isn't enough to make US pay attention and check if Israel is doing something bad or not. But a single allegation from Israel that 12 UNRWA staffs were involved in October 7th attack and immediately US and other western countries responded by stopping all funding.

[Kurth]

Two points, somewhat contrary:

(1) The details are emerging about the UNRWA employees who took part in the October 7 Hamas attack against Israel, and they’re damning:

One is accused of kidnapping a woman. Another is said to have handed out ammunition. A third was described as taking part in the massacre at a kibbutz where 97 people died. And all were said to be employees of the United Nations aid agency that schools, shelters and feeds hundreds of thousands of Palestinians in the Gaza Strip.

The Israelis described 10 of the employees as members of Hamas, the militant group that controlled Gaza at the time of the Oct. 7 attack. Another was said to be affiliated with another militant group, Islamic Jihad.

The most detailed accusations in the dossier concerned a school counselor from Khan Younis, in southern Gaza, who is accused of working with his son to abduct a woman from Israel.

A social worker from Nuseirat, in central Gaza, is accused of helping to bring the body of a dead Israeli soldier to Gaza, as well as distributing ammunition and coordinating vehicles on the day of the attack.

To me, the worst part is that of the dozen UNRWA employees identified as being actively engaged in the Hamas October 7 attack, 10 of them were employed as teachers in UNRWA schools teaching Gazan middle and high school students. When asked by Unagi about why I thought barbarism and anti-semitism were so rampant in Gaza, I pointed to textbooks and the curriculum Hamas has foisted upon the Gazan youth. But here you have their teachers actually putting that to practice and butchering Israeli civilians. Shocking that so many kids in Gaza grow up to hate.

(2) As bad as the above is, we’re talking about a dozen UNRWA workers identified as having taken part in the October 7 Hamas attack. That’s out of like 13K UNRWA workers in Gaza. I know there have been persistent complaints about UNRWA, and I agree with many of them, including:

But to its critics, including many Israelis, the agency is an obstacle to resolving the conflict. Its very existence, they say, prevents Palestinian refugees from integrating into new communities and stokes their dreams of one day returning to what is now Israel — a goal that Israel says it will never allow. And in Gaza, Israel argues, UNRWA has fallen under the influence of Hamas, a claim the agency rejects.

But I question whether it makes sense to cut off UNRWA funding at this moment and as the Gazan population is so desperately in need of assistance. Cutting off aid due to the actions of a dozen out of 13K employees seems like this is being used more as an excuse than as a response to the actual wrong. Also, as the NYT article points out, this isn’t necessarily in Israel’s interests: Much of the humanitarian assistance mission that UNRWA currently takes up will fall to Israel if UNRWA funding runs out, and that’s not something Israel wants to take on.