Israel–United States relations and associated politics

[malchior]

malchior's posting style is what it is at this point, and it's already been discussed plenty. Personally I like to imagine him as a southern gentleman whose honor has been besmirched, which helps for me at least.

I'm not so much besmirched as at a level of disgust with the discourse here. People who point out that Israel is committing atrocities are belittled, yelled at, told they are silly, incessantly questioned as propagandists, and generally treated like crap. And then you folks have the nerve to complain about tone and posting styles?

[El Guapo]

malchior's posting style is what it is at this point, and it's already been discussed plenty. Personally I like to imagine him as a southern gentleman whose honor has been besmirched, which helps for me at least.

I'm not so much besmirched as at a level of disgust with the discourse here. People who point out that Israel is committing atrocities are belittled, yelled at, told they are silly, incessantly questioned as propagandists, and generally treated like crap. And then you folks have the nerve to complain about tone and posting styles?

I know, and people who question some of the posts are sociopathic racist war crime apologists. It's all deeply unfair. Who knew that a discussion about Israel could go off the tracks? But like I said...at this point tone discussions are just spinning our wheels, so we'll leave it at that.

Just know that you're on my list!

[Kurth]

Sir, I have been besmirched!



That works for me. Definitely softens the tone.

[malchior]

malchior's posting style is what it is at this point, and it's already been discussed plenty. Personally I like to imagine him as a southern gentleman whose honor has been besmirched, which helps for me at least.

I'm not so much besmirched as at a level of disgust with the discourse here. People who point out that Israel is committing atrocities are belittled, yelled at, told they are silly, incessantly questioned as propagandists, and generally treated like crap. And then you folks have the nerve to complain about tone and posting styles?

I know, and people who question some of the posts are sociopathic racist war crime apologists. It's all deeply unfair. Who knew that a discussion about Israel could go off the tracks? But like I said...at this point tone discussions are just spinning our wheels, so we'll leave it at that.

Just know that you're on my list!

So I point out that people are being shitty, and your response is to model the shitty behavior with grade-school level antics? Weird flex.

[Zarathud]

Posting is hell, too.

Foghorn Leghorn: For-I say fortunately I always carry a spare set of feathers.
Foghorn Leghorn: That dog’s like taxes, he just don’t know when to stop.

[Dogstar]

malchior's posting style is what it is at this point, and it's already been discussed plenty. Personally I like to imagine him as a southern gentleman whose honor has been besmirched, which helps for me at least.

I'm not so much besmirched as at a level of disgust with the discourse here. People who point out that Israel is committing atrocities are belittled, yelled at, told they are silly, incessantly questioned as propagandists, and generally treated like crap. And then you folks have the nerve to complain about tone and posting styles?

I know, and people who question some of the posts are sociopathic racist war crime apologists. It's all deeply unfair. Who knew that a discussion about Israel could go off the tracks? But like I said...at this point tone discussions are just spinning our wheels, so we'll leave it at that.

Just know that you're on my list!

So I point out that people are being shitty, and your response is to model the shitty behavior with grade-school level antics? Weird flex.

Or maybe recognize that this is an Internet forum, that none of us are under any obligation to conform to others’ morality or philosophy no matter how frustrating some might find that, that we may have different posting styles and tones, and that extending grace towards others, whether it be their attempts to to ease tension or to converse on complex issues, may not be a bad thing?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[El Guapo]

malchior's posting style is what it is at this point, and it's already been discussed plenty. Personally I like to imagine him as a southern gentleman whose honor has been besmirched, which helps for me at least.

I'm not so much besmirched as at a level of disgust with the discourse here. People who point out that Israel is committing atrocities are belittled, yelled at, told they are silly, incessantly questioned as propagandists, and generally treated like crap. And then you folks have the nerve to complain about tone and posting styles?

I know, and people who question some of the posts are sociopathic racist war crime apologists. It's all deeply unfair. Who knew that a discussion about Israel could go off the tracks? But like I said...at this point tone discussions are just spinning our wheels, so we'll leave it at that.

Just know that you're on my list!

So I point out that people are being shitty, and your response is to model the shitty behavior with grade-school level antics? Weird flex.

I mean, kind of. My natural instinct when I encounter overly dramatic self-serious language is to attempt to deflate it with humor. For better or worse, I suppose.

Sent from my Pixel 7 Pro using Tapatalk

[malchior]

malchior's posting style is what it is at this point, and it's already been discussed plenty. Personally I like to imagine him as a southern gentleman whose honor has been besmirched, which helps for me at least.

I'm not so much besmirched as at a level of disgust with the discourse here. People who point out that Israel is committing atrocities are belittled, yelled at, told they are silly, incessantly questioned as propagandists, and generally treated like crap. And then you folks have the nerve to complain about tone and posting styles?

I know, and people who question some of the posts are sociopathic racist war crime apologists. It's all deeply unfair. Who knew that a discussion about Israel could go off the tracks? But like I said...at this point tone discussions are just spinning our wheels, so we'll leave it at that.

Just know that you're on my list!

So I point out that people are being shitty, and your response is to model the shitty behavior with grade-school level antics? Weird flex.

I mean, kind of.

There is no kind of here.

My natural instinct when I encounter overly dramatic self-serious language is to attempt to deflate it with humor.

How is the above "funny"? The problem here isn't whatever you think is self-serious language. It is how you and others aren't treating some of us with basic respect. As demonstrated here. Getting snippy at times is definitely straying into some of same waters but this is pretty far out into total lack of respect. Like making me feel unwelcome here levels of disrespect. But that's probably just me being too sensitive.

[Victoria Raverna]

malchior's posting style is what it is at this point, and it's already been discussed plenty. Personally I like to imagine him as a southern gentleman whose honor has been besmirched, which helps for me at least.

I'm not so much besmirched as at a level of disgust with the discourse here. People who point out that Israel is committing atrocities are belittled, yelled at, told they are silly, incessantly questioned as propagandists, and generally treated like crap. And then you folks have the nerve to complain about tone and posting styles?

I know, and people who question some of the posts are sociopathic racist war crime apologists. It's all deeply unfair. Who knew that a discussion about Israel could go off the tracks? But like I said...at this point tone discussions are just spinning our wheels, so we'll leave it at that.

Just know that you're on my list!

So I point out that people are being shitty, and your response is to model the shitty behavior with grade-school level antics? Weird flex.

I mean, kind of. My natural instinct when I encounter overly dramatic self-serious language is to attempt to deflate it with humor. For better or worse, I suppose.

Sent from my Pixel 7 Pro using Tapatalk

I think by piling on Malchior, this is no longer humor but more like bullying.

Maybe you don't realize that. If it is just you posting that, it can be seen as humor. With people piling on Malchior one after another, it is no longer funny.

[malchior]

I'm good for a pile on if it's warranted. In this case? All I'm seeing is abusive behaviors. It's kind of surprising how openly abusive it is to be honest. I just don't get how laughing it off as humor after another paragraph of abuse can be seen a different way. Anyway, these are the times we live in I suppose.

[El Guapo]

I'm good for a pile on if it's warranted. In this case? All I'm seeing is abusive behaviors. It's kind of surprising how openly abusive it is to be honest. I just don't get how laughing it off as humor after another paragraph of abuse can be seen a different way. Anyway, these are the times we live in I suppose.

I guess we'll never know why you've received similar feedback from multiple people in this thread.

[Zarathud]

You weren’t openly accused of being an apologist for genocide, a racist, or other serious accusations of being a vile person, so please forgive me if I call out the hypocrisy of your position demanding respect from other posters. Or your views being disrespected.

(BTW, I’m acknowledging in advance that I’m not going to be forgiven by Melchior or VR, and that I’m being a dick posting this observation)

Edit - to be clear who I’m referencing.

[El Guapo]

malchior's posting style is what it is at this point, and it's already been discussed plenty. Personally I like to imagine him as a southern gentleman whose honor has been besmirched, which helps for me at least.

I'm not so much besmirched as at a level of disgust with the discourse here. People who point out that Israel is committing atrocities are belittled, yelled at, told they are silly, incessantly questioned as propagandists, and generally treated like crap. And then you folks have the nerve to complain about tone and posting styles?

I know, and people who question some of the posts are sociopathic racist war crime apologists. It's all deeply unfair. Who knew that a discussion about Israel could go off the tracks? But like I said...at this point tone discussions are just spinning our wheels, so we'll leave it at that.

Just know that you're on my list!

So I point out that people are being shitty, and your response is to model the shitty behavior with grade-school level antics? Weird flex.

I mean, kind of. My natural instinct when I encounter overly dramatic self-serious language is to attempt to deflate it with humor. For better or worse, I suppose.

Sent from my Pixel 7 Pro using Tapatalk

I think by piling on Malchior, this is no longer humor but more like bullying.

Maybe you don't realize that. If it is just you posting that, it can be seen as humor. With people piling on Malchior one after another, it is no longer funny.

I know, but I'm just posting for myself, I don't intend to start a pile on. But I also acknowledge that I'm in something of an unhealthy relationship with this thread, where I keep trying to quit it but keep relapsing. But I think I'm finally done. The snark is more symptomatic of being unable to find a way to have a productive discussion here. The snark's cathartic but ultimately not especially helpful.

"I'll add you to my list" still kills me, though.

[malchior]

I'm good for a pile on if it's warranted. In this case? All I'm seeing is abusive behaviors. It's kind of surprising how openly abusive it is to be honest. I just don't get how laughing it off as humor after another paragraph of abuse can be seen a different way. Anyway, these are the times we live in I suppose.

I guess we'll never know why you've received similar feedback from multiple people in this thread.

What you mean is the same small group of people have been abusive. I'm going to keep using that word because that what I consider it now. I've been here many years and never have made a complaint like this. At this point I don't know what to do other than walk away.

At any point you could have let up. Instead you have taken every opportunity to keep heaping on the abuse. You've misconstrued my words. You've put words in my mouth. You've tone policed me. You've mocked me. You just keep piling on. I haven't seen legit bullying in years but I can't think of another word for. Heck at any point you could have just stopped doing it silently.

[malchior]

"I'll add you to my list" still kills me, though.

Mostly because like many other things you ascribed to me it is because you are misconstruing it. It was a "list" of people acting shitty. You've definitely set me straight on that one.

[El Guapo]

I'm good for a pile on if it's warranted. In this case? All I'm seeing is abusive behaviors. It's kind of surprising how openly abusive it is to be honest. I just don't get how laughing it off as humor after another paragraph of abuse can be seen a different way. Anyway, these are the times we live in I suppose.

I guess we'll never know why you've received similar feedback from multiple people in this thread.

What you mean is the same small group of people have been abusive. I'm going to keep using that word because that what I consider it now. I've been here many years and never have made a complaint like this. At this point I don't know what to do other than walk away.

At any point you could have let up. Instead you have taken every opportunity to keep heaping on the abuse. You've misconstrued my words. You've put words in my mouth. You've tone policed me. You've mocked me. You just keep piling on. I haven't seen legit bullying in years but I can't think of another word for. Heck at any point you could have just stopped doing it silently.

Look, I am genuinely sorry for my role in this mess. And I probably have miscontinued posts along the way. I would just leave you with the thought that perhaps you have also misconstrued posts and also contributed to the deterioration of this discussion.

[Kraken]

I know, but I'm just posting for myself, I don't intend to start a pile on. But I also acknowledge that I'm in something of an unhealthy relationship with this thread, where I keep trying to quit it but keep relapsing. But I think I'm finally done. The snark is more symptomatic of being unable to find a way to have a productive discussion here. The snark's cathartic but ultimately not especially helpful.

"I'll add you to my list" still kills me, though.

Some of us did the Homer-backing-into-the-bushes thing many pages ago. I haven't followed who said what to whom, but there's plenty of toxicity to go around.

[Victoria Raverna]

I'm sure IDF will claim that some Hamas fighters were in the building:

[Blackhawk]

I'm certain of the following:

1. We can't be certain of the exact numbers or exact details
2. We don't need the exact numbers or exact details to have enough evidence to know that both Hamas and Israel crossed the line
3. Collateral damage and civilian deaths are an absolute in war. They will happen.
4. There are things that can be done to mitigate #3, and those things are required by international law
5. Israel seems to be ignoring #4 because they don't wanna do that. Because.

This is two piles of shit slinging shit at each other, and we have people arguing about which one smells the best.

[Victoria Raverna]

So I guess Israel = Hamas?

Both are terrorists except one is supported by US/Biden?

[Blackhawk]

So I guess Israel = Hamas?

Both are terrorists except one is supported by US/Biden?

That isn't even remotely what anyone said.

Your witch hunt has gotten out of hand. You've completely abandoned reason. Have a beer. Have a Snickers. Do something.

[Victoria Raverna]

So I guess Israel = Hamas?

Both are terrorists except one is supported by US/Biden?

That isn't even remotely what anyone said.

Your witch hunt has gotten out of hand. You've completely abandoned reason. Have a beer. Have a Snickers. Do something.

Then maybe I misunderstood what "you're certain of" speech.

I thought you claimed that both sides are as bad as each other.

[Victoria Raverna]

You know what is funny to me with all this "Hamas is bad" defense?

It seems like now it is acceptable to some people to defend bad action of a country they like by comparing it to action of a terrorist group then say "look it is not that bad, terrorist is worse".

[YellowKing]

It doesn't matter who you have in the White House - Democrat, Republican, Biden, Trump, Obama, the lunch lady from the White House cafeteria. They're going to support Israel. Israel has been a staunch US ally for decades.

The idea that Biden is going to somehow reverse decades of US policy towards an ally essentially overnight, is pure fantasyland. Even if that ally is acting atrociously. This is a new situation, and they're walking one hell of a diplomatic tightrope. And yet a bunch of nerds on a message board are at each others throats because they're not fixing it in a week.

[Victoria Raverna]

It doesn't matter who you have in the White House - Democrat, Republican, Biden, Trump, Obama, the lunch lady from the White House cafeteria. They're going to support Israel. Israel has been a staunch US ally for decades.

The idea that Biden is going to somehow reverse decades of US policy towards an ally essentially overnight, is pure fantasyland. Even if that ally is acting atrociously. This is a new situation, and they're walking one hell of a diplomatic tightrope. And yet a bunch of nerds on a message board are at each others throats because they're not fixing it in a week.

Is it so hard for US to put condition on military aids to Israel? I don't think people expect US to stop supporting Israel or not be an ally to Israel. I think it is reasonable to expect US to put condition on their support if they really want Israel to stop acting atrociously.

Also it is not in a week. Israel had been acting this way since October. I think it is unreasonable to expect US to try to pressure Israel by stopping aids or put condition at October. Maybe not that reasonable to expect it at November. Now it is almost at the end of January.

Do you think the response here will be different if it is Trump that is the president right now?

[Blackhawk]

All I said was that both sides are bad. Not the same, not equally bad, not identically motivated, just that both sides are in the wrong. Over and over again, your preconceptions in this seem to be skewing what you take away from every conversation toward the argument you expect people to be making rather then the argument that they actually are.

You know what is funny to me with all this "Hamas is bad" defense?

It seems like now it is acceptable to some people to defend bad action of a country they like by comparing it to action of a terrorist group then say "look it is not that bad, terrorist is worse".

What you don't seem to get is that almost nobody here is making that excuse, yet you seem to be trying to convince every person here that they're wrong - about a point that they're not even making.

[YellowKing]

Trump would be pouring gasoline on this dumpster fire and handing out matches.

[Victoria Raverna]

All I said was that both sides are bad. Not the same, not equally bad, not identically motivated, just that both sides are in the wrong. Over and over again, your preconceptions in this seem to be skewing what you take away from every conversation toward the argument you expect people to be making rather then the argument that they actually are.

You know what is funny to me with all this "Hamas is bad" defense?

It seems like now it is acceptable to some people to defend bad action of a country they like by comparing it to action of a terrorist group then say "look it is not that bad, terrorist is worse".

What you don't seem to get is that almost nobody here is making that excuse, yet you seem to be trying to convince every person here that they're wrong - about a point that they're not even making.

Maybe not you but I have seen a lot of pro Israel people making the comparison. I think I remember some posts here doing just that.

[YellowKing]

For the record, I'm pro-people not killing each other over religious bullshit.

[Zarathud]

Maybe not you but I have seen a lot of pro Israel people making the comparison. I think I remember some posts here doing just that.

Your memory is wrong. The only posts doing that were yours trying to put words and arguments into other people's mouths, including mine. Repeatedly.

[Victoria Raverna]

Then maybe I didn't remember correctly. It is also possible I misunderstood. It is easy to forget that just because someone bring up bad deeds of Hamas when we're discussing bad deeds of Israel doesn't mean they want to compare them, right?

[Zarathud]

Repeatedly.

[Blackhawk]

Then maybe I didn't remember correctly. It is also possible I misunderstood. It is easy to forget that just because someone bring up bad deeds of Hamas when we're discussing bad deeds of Israel doesn't mean they want to compare them, right?

Comparing two things isn't the same as equating two things.

[Victoria Raverna]

Then maybe I didn't remember correctly. It is also possible I misunderstood. It is easy to forget that just because someone bring up bad deeds of Hamas when we're discussing bad deeds of Israel doesn't mean they want to compare them, right?

Comparing two things isn't the same as equating two things.

To me to compare a country and a supposedly good country to terrorist organization is not a good look for that country.

[Blackhawk]

Can I compare North Korea with South Korea?

In any case, you're still reading way too much into things. You're adding all sorts of intent and subtext to what people are saying that wasn't actually there.

[Kurth]

So I guess Israel = Hamas?

Both are terrorists except one is supported by US/Biden?

That isn't even remotely what anyone said.

Your witch hunt has gotten out of hand. You've completely abandoned reason. Have a beer. Have a Snickers. Do something.

Then maybe I misunderstood what "you're certain of" speech.

I thought you claimed that both sides are as bad as each other.

In a crazy turn of events, I'm kind of with VR here. Blackhawk, maybe it's not how you intended to come off, but when you say:

I'm certain of the following:

This is two piles of shit slinging shit at each other, and we have people arguing about which one smells the best.

I don't think it's surprising that VR took that to mean you were equating Hamas and Israel and their respective actions. This comment clearly reads to me that you don't see much difference between the two.

[Zarathud]

Blackhawk hasn’t equated the two — and forcing others into making that argument is a necessary part of VR and makichor’s tactics, because it makes IDF terrorists.

The US and UN established the fundamental principle of international law that the aggressors who attack another nation have declared war, and the defender is entitled to respond militarily. And that terrorists who cross borders and try to shelter in another nation are subject to attack.

While there are principles about the conduct of war, the first principle is military aggression from a state or terrorist organization makes them a valid target. Hamas and Gaza are both. There are reasonable arguments that Israel violated several principles or their actions caused undue suffering, but calling it genocide or war crimes has a specific meaning. Death tolls and examples of deaths DO NOT establish sufficient proof, it only illustrates the suffering and consequences of the war. It demands an emotional response, not a logical one.

VR and malichor make very serious charges which require evidence they haven’t provided, and try to make it stick by delegitimizing the other side, or twisting their points into something more convenient to their narrative. Pointing out Israel has any justification for engaging in military operations challenges their demand for a unilateral cease-fire or pressure on Israel. The position that it’s a mess with no clear answers also challenges their repeated calls to action against Israel and war. Never-mind that it’s factually accurate.

[Dogstar]

Blackhawk hasn’t equated the two — and forcing others into making that argument is a necessary part of VR and makichor’s tactics, because it makes IDF terrorists.

The US and UN established the fundamental principle of international law that the aggressors who attack another nation have declared war, and the defender is entitled to respond militarily. And that terrorists who cross borders and try to shelter in another nation are subject to attack.

While there are principles about the conduct of war, the first principle is military aggression from a state or terrorist organization makes them a valid target. Hamas and Gaza are both. There are reasonable arguments that Israel violated several principles or their actions caused undue suffering, but calling it genocide or war crimes has a specific meaning. Death tolls and examples of deaths DO NOT establish sufficient proof, it only illustrates the suffering and consequences of the war. It demands an emotional response, not a logical one.

VR and malichor make very serious charges which require evidence they haven’t provided, and try to make it stick by delegitimizing the other side, or twisting their points into something more convenient to their narrative. Pointing out Israel has any justification for engaging in military operations challenges their demand for a unilateral cease-fire or pressure on Israel. The position that it’s a mess with no clear answers also challenges their repeated calls to action against Israel and war. Never-mind that it’s factually accurate.

For what it's worth, I would have read Blackhawk's statement that way too. I said upthread that there are no clean hands at this point. While I think Israel was justified in responding to Oct. 7 and moving to reduce Hamas and minimize a security threat, I think some of their methods of doing so have been problematic at best and reprehensible at worst, and I definitely do not embrace Netanyahu's vision of the future where Palestinians never have autonomy over their own lives and the lands they've lived on.

You're legally correct in your explanation in terms of how the US and UN view aggression. However, there isn't carte blanche do whatever countries want in terms of responding to that aggression or in terms of occupation of captured land. Hence the Security Council resolutions calling for a ceasefire and the case for war crimes presented at The Hague. And it was not exactly helpful to Israel's case for Netanyahu to say (paraphrasing): "The Hague won't stop us."

Moreover, absent their boots being on the ground as part of a forensic investigative team in Gaza, it's not up to VR and Malchior to prove each item to your satisfaction, or to the standards in a court of law. It doesn't make them automatically right, but it doesn't make them automatically wrong either unless there's definitive evidence either way. I'd note that it has been difficult to accurately gather information for multiple reasons. It's for people reading to draw their own conclusions from their own sources they trust, whether that be you, random Twitter account, or the BBC.

Your explanation is one reason people are not always fond of lawyers, and I work in the legal field. For international Kissinger realpolitik, you're on safe ground. But many people don't need the law to determine the value of other human beings, or whether actions are right or wrong. If someone reads a story about Israel advocating that the refugees go to a certain region, or follow a certain path, to clear out of the way of harm, and then Israel bombs that same region, it's not simply emotional to say that's questionable at best and bad at worst. That's moral. You seem to have a hard time understanding that moral reactions, while sometimes intertwined with emotional, are valid. VR, Blackhawk, Malchior, YellowKing, myself and possibly others have offered reactions/judgments based on our morals. Just because they don't match up with your legal definition or standards of proof doesn't render those invalid. They might be unpersuasive to you, and they might be antithetical to the way you look at or approach the world, but they're not invalid.

[Exodor]

I'm not so much besmirched as at a level of disgust with the discourse here. People who point out that Israel is committing atrocities are belittled, yelled at, told they are silly, incessantly questioned as propagandists, and generally treated like crap. And then you folks have the nerve to complain about tone and posting styles?

I admit I never thought I'd see some posters on OO handwave away war crimes using the same "ends justify the means" logic Hamas used on Oct. 7 but here we are.

It's pretty disgusting.

[Holman]

I've lost track--whose war crimes are we condemning?

IMHO, both Hamas and the IDF have behaved monstrously. Both deserve condemnation, and neither is excused by the other.