Israel–United States relations and associated politics

[Zarathud]

A non-US view is fine. Mindlessly serving up an algorithm stream of propaganda isn’t.

I don’t demand you believe me because I’ve found something on the internet. There are plenty of reasons to think Netanyahu, Israeli’s right wing, Israel and the IDF are being counterproductive and wrong. They’re on a collision course with disaster. There will be consequences, and I fully expect them to be imposed by other Jews.

But if you understand the history and context, you’ll hopefully understand that “divestment” or “UN disapproval” or “college protests” will never change their mind. For them, the lesson is literally “do unto others before they can kill you again.”

That’s the other part of my fundamental disagreement — knowing there are things you cannot control and will not change. Blaming Biden or the U.S. is futile and faulty logic. This is a return of a shitty situation that’s existed for decades. If you follow what I’ve been saying, those are my narrow points.

Another junk article isn’t likely to be relevant, especially when it’s not thought through. Ever. If there was something that applied, I’d love to have it explained. Or discuss it. But a constant appeal to online authority isn’t going to measure up—it’s faulty logic. And after awhile, I lost my patience.

[Kurth]

A non-US view is fine. Mindlessly serving up an algorithm stream of propaganda isn’t.

I don’t demand you believe me because I’ve found something on the internet. There are plenty of reasons to think Netanyahu, Israeli’s right wing, Israel and the IDF are being counterproductive and wrong. They’re on a collision course with disaster. There will be consequences, and I fully expect them to be imposed by other Jews.

But if you understand the history and context, you’ll hopefully understand that “divestment” or “UN disapproval” or “college protests” will never change their mind. For them, the lesson is literally “do unto others before they can kill you again.”

That’s the other part of my fundamental disagreement — knowing there are things you cannot control and will not change. Blaming Biden or the U.S. is futile and faulty logic. This is a return of a shitty situation that’s existed for decades. If you follow what I’ve been saying, those are my narrow points.

Another junk article isn’t likely to be relevant, especially when it’s not thought through. Ever. If there was something that applied, I’d love to have it explained. Or discuss it. But a constant appeal to online authority isn’t going to measure up—it’s faulty logic. And after awhile, I lost my patience.

I have nothing to add to this but a +1.

[Victoria Raverna]

I'm more-or-less in line with VR's position on a lot of this.
And I don't "not like" him/her, and I've often been happy to read their posts in the past.

Personally, I am willing to write and read about these topics (from VR's to Zarathud's), but that's different from just labelling a 10-minute YouTube video with "He's right" , and if ya watch it, then you will know my position.

And that's not a problem, in-and-of-itself... It's just that VR had started and continued to occasionally post 2, 3, 4, or even 6 videos - all in a row.
The commentary added, often were just things like "Biden is wrong" or "I guess America isn't so great after all".
And this, even after being almost begged to stop doing it...

I think I'm frustrated because I don't want your posts/YouTubeVideo Links to be the thing that makes people stop listening. And it's happening.
Do you hear what I am saying, VR?


Totally aside from that is the nature of the message; the source - and its intended audience.

I seriously appreciate a point of view from outside the USA. Historically, over the years, I've enjoyed a great number of VR's posts.

On this topic, on which we are apparently mostly in agreement, as an American who (still) likes to think we are a country whose citizens can control its direction and future, I find it greatly frustrating to hear from Jakarta that Biden isn't doing enough. It's as if I could have done (or in the next few months do ) something other than to vote for Biden - if my goal is to help some random 500 Palestinian kids not be killed.

So, yeah. I'm sorry if I came across rude in my 'for fuck sakes' post. And I appreciate everyone (VR & Zarathud included) that have tried to make some good of it.

I understand, but the thing is I posted the videos because they can communicate my thought better than if I tried to write them using my own words. So when I posted a picture say something that I agree with that. That is just that. Or if I say something like Biden is wrong then post a video of Biden speech, that means I disagree with Biden. Now if anyone is interested in discussing that, I am going to respond to that.

I think maybe another problem with this is that I'm now used to getting my news in video form instead of articles. I read my news from thing like google news but a lot of the news source are now paywalled. So it is much easier for me to get the news from youtube than that.

Maybe posters here are not used to using youtube as news source. Now in youtube there are a lot of fake news. A lot of opinion videos. Not all of them are good but some are. I'm now used to go through BS videos to find one good one (good one according to me) so I have no problem with people posting videos here with short or no comment.

I also sometime don't know the person that give the opinion. Maybe that person is very controversial person, but I don't know that. So I can sometime post an opinion video from someone that has bad reputation here. The reason I post it is because I maybe agree with the opinion or I think it is worth discussing.

[LordMortis]

Personally, I am willing to write and read about these topics (from VR's to Zarathud's), but that's different from just labelling a 10-minute YouTube video with "He's right" , and if ya watch it, then you will know my position.

And that's not a problem, in-and-of-itself... It's just...

post 2, 3, 4, or even 6 videos - all in a row.

+1. I tend to gloss over links to videos or articles without accompanying explanation as to why I should head that way and the more of them I see the stronger the tendency becomes.

Everyone does their own thing but my own thing is to tune out links without no meaningful related caption.

I think maybe another problem with this is that I'm now used to getting my news in video form instead of articles. I read my news from thing like google news but a lot of the news source are now paywalled. So it is much easier for me to get the news from youtube than that.

I get that. Paywalling is one the reasons I gloss over links without notes but there is also just a large volume of things competing for my attention and asking me to sit through even 2 two minutes of something without knowing what I'm getting in to first is two minutes you won't get from me, to say nothing of who is aggregating data on my click through and why.

You do you, but I'm not the audience for links with no thoughts/quotes, etc...

[Blackhawk]

If you're just wanting to discuss your opinion, you don't need a video (or a picture, or a link, or a quote) to do it. Sometimes if you're making a point and something helps illustrate that point, it can be useful. But it would be in support of what you're saying, rather than a substitute for saying it.

[Grifman]

Still too many but I don’t have any answers.

[Blackhawk]

Maybe. It needs better analysis and sources, though. Everything I've seen points back to the FDD, which isn't the most unbiased or reliable source.

[Victoria Raverna]

Maybe I need to call that propaganda?

Here is another source that showed it more clearly:

https://www.jpost.com/israel-hamas-war/article-800772

May 6th:


May 8th:


I think it was a misunderstanding of the numbers, intentional or not.

The one from May 6th was the estimate. So > 9500 women and > 14500 children out of 34735.

The one from May 8th was identified death. So 4959 women and 7797 children out of 24686.

But to be fair the percentage is lower so if we assume the proportion stay the same if we apply it to the total estimate instead of identified,. we can say they lowered the estimate of proportion of women/children killed. From around 27% to 20% and from around 42% to 32%. But not halfed.

The identified ones also split out the elderly so depend on the percentage of female vs male elderly there, the actual women numbers can be actually higher than 20% if we added the elderly women to it but still not likely to reach 27%. The range is between 20% - 27.8% (from 0 female elderly to 100% all elderly are female).

[Blackhawk]

Maybe I need to call that propaganda?

I have no idea. I've never used the word in this thread, or in reference to it. I find it's too broad a term most of the time. It's the same as with what I've said before: If there's a claim, I look at the source. If the source is questionable, I look for other sources to back it up. In this case, all of the other references I found called back to the same source, which isn't a reliable one.

I don't doubt that there is some truth in here, and that the numbers have changed. How, why, and what that means is going to have to wait for some proper investigation and journalism.

FWIW, I ignore or call out bad sources even when they support my own personal views.

[Victoria Raverna]

Maybe I need to call that propaganda?

I have no idea. I've never used the word in this thread, or in reference to it. I find it's too broad a term most of the time. It's the same as with what I've said before: If there's a claim, I look at the source. If the source is questionable, I look for other sources to back it up. In this case, all of the other references I found called back to the same source, which isn't a reliable one.

I don't doubt that there is some truth in here, and that the numbers have changed. How, why, and what that means is going to have to wait for some proper investigation and journalism.

FWIW, I ignore or call out bad sources even when they support my own personal views.

You don't need to doubt if there is some truth in there. You can read my explanation above.

It was actually two different things. Estimated numbers vs identified numbers. Also different grouping has effect on the numbers too. The estimated one split to 3 groups, male, female and children. The identified ones split into male, female, children and elderly.

Here let me add some more quote from my post you quoted:

I think it was a misunderstanding of the numbers, intentional or not.

The one from May 6th was the estimate. So > 9500 women and > 14500 children out of 34735.

The one from May 8th was identified death. So 4959 women and 7797 children out of 24686.

But to be fair the percentage is lower so if we assume the proportion stay the same if we apply it to the total estimate instead of identified,. we can say they lowered the estimate of proportion of women/children killed. From around 27% to 20% and from around 42% to 32%. But not halfed.

The identified ones also split out the elderly so depend on the percentage of female vs male elderly there, the actual women numbers can be actually higher than 20% if we added the elderly women to it but still not likely to reach 27%. The range is between 20% - 27.8% (from 0 female elderly to 100% all elderly are female).

I think you can agree that was a very non biased explanation.

[Blackhawk]

You don't need to doubt if there is some truth in there.

As a skeptic, this is completely contrary to my thought process. I doubt absolutely everything. Anything real can stand up to inquiry.

[Victoria Raverna]

You don't need to doubt if there is some truth in there.

As a skeptic, this is completely contrary to my thought process. I doubt absolutely everything. Anything real can stand up to inquiry.

UN did change some numbers but FDD was not honest about it.

[Zarathud]

The numbers on deaths are so preliminary given that Gaza is a shambles, the parties have incentives to misreport, and there are no doubt a lot of missing who are actuallytty refugees. Trying to get into the details is inherently going to be based on bad data.

[El Guapo]

The numbers on deaths are so preliminary given that Gaza is a shambles, the parties have incentives to misreport, and there are no doubt a lot of missing who are actuallytty refugees. Trying to get into the details is inherently going to be based on bad data.

The sense I have from what I have read is that the Gaza Health Ministry is viewed as fairly reliable in terms of the number of casualties. But that they are not viewed as reliable in terms of the breakdown (e.g., combatants vs. civilians; adults vs. children, etc.). Which makes sense both in terms of data challenges and in terms of Hamas's reporting incentives.

[Victoria Raverna]

First UN international staff killed in Gaza. While there have been over 100 UN staffs killed since October 7th in Gaza, this was the first international staff member killed.

https://news.un.org/en/story/2024/05/1149676

A staff member of the UN Department of Safety and Security (DSS) died and another was injured when their UN vehicle was struck as they travelled to the European Hospital in Rafah, Gaza, on Monday.

Condemning all attacks on UN personnel, Secretary-General António Guterres called for a full investigation, his deputy spokesperson, Farhan Haq, told journalists in New York.

“With the conflict in Gaza continuing to take a heavy toll – not only on civilians, but also on humanitarian workers – the Secretary-General reiterates his urgent appeal for an immediate humanitarian ceasefire and for the release of all hostages,” he said.

Questioned by journalists, Mr. Haq said that the UN was still gathering information on the incident. He later confirmed that the security personnel killed was an international staff member, marking the first such UN death in the Gaza conflict.

Separately, UN Palestine refugee agency UNRWA reported that another of its staff members had been killed in the war, bringing the total number to 188.

The 53-year-old senior projects officer was believed to have died on Sunday in an Israeli strike in the central town of Deir Al Balah, after leaving Rafah.

[El Guapo]

FWIW I still think that Israel's action against Al Jazeera is wrong and unjustified, but if the translation and characterization of this guy as their "main Gaza war analyst" is accurate then....not great.

[Victoria Raverna]

FWIW I still think that Israel's action against Al Jazeera is wrong and unjustified, but if the translation and characterization of this guy as their "main Gaza war analyst" is accurate then....not great.

That Fayez Al-Dwairi guy is a joke. His analyst is almost always Hamas is kicking IDF's ass.

I don't know if he is supposed to be their "main Gaza war analyst" or just a "celebrity ex-general" that they hired to give his opinion.

[Victoria Raverna]

You don't need to doubt if there is some truth in there.

As a skeptic, this is completely contrary to my thought process. I doubt absolutely everything. Anything real can stand up to inquiry.

Here is a fact check video on that:



The explanation is exactly the same as what I wrote.

[hepcat]

https://www.jpost.com/diaspora/antisemi ... cle-801165

Oof. Maybe don’t deface a Holocaust memorial if you don’t want to come across as antisemitic.

[Victoria Raverna]

Another staff resigned because of the war:

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/art ... signs-gaza

An interior department staffer on Wednesday became the first Jewish political appointee to publicly resign in protest of US support for Israel’s war in Gaza.

Lily Greenberg Call, a special assistant to the chief of staff in the interior department, accused Joe Biden of using Jewish people to justify US policy in the conflict.

Call had worked for the presidential campaigns of both Biden and Kamala Harris, and was a longtime activist and advocate for Israel in Washington and elsewhere before joining the government.

She is at least the fifth mid- or senior-level administration staffer to make public their resignation in protest of the Biden administration’s military and diplomatic support of the now seven-month Israeli war against Hamas.

She is the second political appointee to do so, after an education department official of Palestinian heritage resigned in January.

Her resignation letter described her excitement at joining an administration that she believed shared much of her vision for the country. “However, I can no longer in good conscience continue to represent this administration,” she wrote.

In an interview with the Associated Press, Call pointed to comments by Biden, including at a White House Hanukkah event where he said “Were there no Israel, there wouldn’t be a Jew in the world who was safe” and at an event at Washington’s Holocaust Memorial last week in which he said the 7 October Hamas-led attacks that triggered the war were driven by an “ancient desire to wipe out the Jewish people”.

“He is making Jews the face of the American war machine. And that is so deeply wrong,” she said, noting that ancestors of hers were killed by “state-sponsored violence”.

The Hamas-led attacks on 7 October killed about 1,200 people in Israel. Israel’s military campaign against Hamas in Gaza has killed more than 35,000 Palestinians.

The Biden administration has pointed to its repeated calls to Benjamin Netanyahu’s government for more precise targeting of Hamas so as to spare more civilians. It recently paused a shipment of bombs to Israel, saying it wanted to prevent Israeli forces from dropping them on the crowded southern Gaza city of Rafah.

“I think the president has to know that there are people in his administration who think this is disastrous,” Call said of the war overall and US support for it. “Not just for Palestinians, for Israelis, for Jews, for Americans, for his election prospects.”

[hepcat]

They recovered three more bodies of hostages from the Hamas massacre.

The Israeli military announced Friday that it has recovered the bodies of three hostages from a tunnel in the Gaza Strip.

The hostages were identified as Shani Louk, Amit Bouskila, and Itshak Gelernter, IDF spokesperson Rear Admiral Daniel Hagari said in a press conference in Tel Aviv. All three were killed while escaping the Nova music festival and their bodies taken into Gaza, he said.

“They were celebrating life in the Nova music festival and they were murdered by Hamas,” he said.

The bodies were identified by authorities and the families have been informed, Hagari said.

The bodies were transferred to medical professionals for forensic examination. The families were then notified, he added.

Shani Louk was already presumed dead after videos surfaced shortly after 10/7 with her semi nude body splayed across the back of a truck driven by Hamas fighters while crowds of people cheered them on.

[LawBeefaroni]

Shani Louk was already presumed dead after videos surfaced shortly after 10/7 with her semi nude body splayed across the back of a truck driving by Hamas while crowds of people cheered them on.

She was officially pronounced dead back in December October after they found a fragment from her skull at the concert site. It was determined that it was from an unsurvivable injury.

EDIT: misremembered the date.

[hepcat]

That's just horrible.

[Unagi]

Cooler heads.

Israel War Cabinet Member Sets Ultimatum and Threatens to Quit Government
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/is ... e921&ei=20


“If you choose to follow the path of zealots and lead the entire nation towards an abyss, we will be forced to leave the government,” Gantz said in comments directed towards Netanyahu. “The moment of truth has arrived.”


next leader of Isreal?

[El Guapo]

Cooler heads.

Israel War Cabinet Member Sets Ultimatum and Threatens to Quit Government
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/is ... e921&ei=20


“If you choose to follow the path of zealots and lead the entire nation towards an abyss, we will be forced to leave the government,” Gantz said in comments directed towards Netanyahu. “The moment of truth has arrived.”


next leader of Isreal?

I think Gantz is the most likely next prime minister.

[Kurth]

Cooler heads.

Israel War Cabinet Member Sets Ultimatum and Threatens to Quit Government
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/is ... e921&ei=20


“If you choose to follow the path of zealots and lead the entire nation towards an abyss, we will be forced to leave the government,” Gantz said in comments directed towards Netanyahu. “The moment of truth has arrived.”


next leader of Isreal?

I think Gantz is the most likely next prime minister.

That would be fucking awesome.

[Alefroth]

Yeah, but how soon will that happen?

[em2nought]

What's with all the angry females supporting HAMAS? I think they're all mad because passport bros have turned their backs to them. I bet they're livid over what the Chief's kicker just had to say.

[hepcat]

I had to look up passport bros. You could have just said Incels.

[Kurth]

If you have some time (it’s long and in depth, in three parts), read The Unpunished: How Right Wing Extremists Took Over Israel.

It makes a compelling argument that Israel is under an existential threat from its own right-wing extremists, and the failure of Israel to confront and stop those right wingers has emboldened them. Looking at the history of Smotrich and Ben-Givr, it’s hard to argue against this take.

Scary stuff if you care about the state of Israel.

[Holman]

If you have some time (it’s long and in depth, in three parts), read The Unpunished: How Right Wing Extremists Took Over Israel.

It makes a compelling argument that Israel is under an existential threat from its own right-wing extremists, and the failure of Israel to confront and stop those right wingers has emboldened them. Looking at the history of Smotrich and Ben-Givr, it’s hard to argue against this take.

Scary stuff if you care about the state of Israel.

I came in to post this.

[El Guapo]

Yeah, but how soon will that happen?

That is an important question. I think it's likely that some Israeli party / faction is going to force elections sometime this summer. Once that is triggered, I believe that Israeli law requires 3 months for an election. As a rough guess maybe elections happen October / November-ish. Then some amount of time (depending on the results) for haggling over the formation of a government.

Of course unless his polls improve, Netanyahu has a lot of incentive to try to push out the elections as long as possible.

[Holman]

I had to look up passport bros. You could have just said Incels.

No need to look it up. Saying "females" makes it obvious.

[Dogstar]

https://www.yahoo.com/news/icc-prosecut ... 56483.html

The chief prosecutor of the International Criminal Court said Monday he is seeking arrest warrants for Israeli and Hamas leaders, including Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, in connection with their actions during the seven-month war between Israel and Hamas.

Karim Khan said that he believes Netanyahu, his defense minister Yoav Gallant and three Hamas leaders — Yehia Sinwar, Mohammed Deif and Ismail Haniyeh — are responsible for war crimes and crimes against humanity in the Gaza Strip and Israel.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[hepcat]

Well, at least they've decided to include Hamas leadership. It would have looked very one sided had they not.

[El Guapo]

Well, at least they've decided to include Hamas leadership. It would have looked very one sided had they not.

I wonder what enforcement would look like for them. Will this make it harder for Qatar to continue to shield them?

Including Gallant seems a little bonkers to me. I get that he's the defense minister, but he's also been a major thorn in Netanyahu's side - lately he's been going to the mat to try to get to Netanyahu to commit to Palestinian governance of Gaza post-war. This doesn't seem particularly helpful.

[Victoria Raverna]

Anti-Israel propaganda by BBC?

[Victoria Raverna]

[Victoria Raverna]

And two more European countries recognized the State of Palestine:



Israel's responses to Oct 7th caused Palestinians to win support from 3 European countries?

[hepcat]

Hamas is reportedly gloating over this. Now they see no downside to murdering innocent men, women and children.