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NY vs. Trump - Hush Money Trial
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- Grifman
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Re: NY vs. Trump - Hush Money Trial
And after his contempt hearing yesterday, Trump promptly violates his gag order again this morning;
Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions. – G.K. Chesterton
- Smoove_B
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Re: NY vs. Trump - Hush Money Trial
I genuinely don't know anymore if he's incapable of keeping his mouth shut, if he truly believes he's untouchable or if he's intentionally doing all this because he knows that being thrown in a jail cell will boost his likelihood of being elected again.
Maybe next year, maybe no go
- TheMix
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Re: NY vs. Trump - Hush Money Trial
My gut says the first.
I don't believe that he ever learned any kind of self-control. Though he also likely believes he's untouchable. I'm just not sure he's aware enough to even understand that what he is doing would require him to be "untouchable".
I don't believe that he ever learned any kind of self-control. Though he also likely believes he's untouchable. I'm just not sure he's aware enough to even understand that what he is doing would require him to be "untouchable".
Black Lives Matter
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- LawBeefaroni
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Re: NY vs. Trump - Hush Money Trial
If past results are any indication, he's right. He has seved no jail time for a career built on breaking the law and violating every ethical standard that exists. He was elected president of the United States for fuck's sake. He was vested $1B in a scam company yesterday.
You can blame him for a lot but it's hard to blame him for thinking that he's untouchable when it's been proven time and again. His only punishment has been made to sit in boring courtrooms without fast food. Which he hates so he probably thinks it is total persecution.
You can blame him for a lot but it's hard to blame him for thinking that he's untouchable when it's been proven time and again. His only punishment has been made to sit in boring courtrooms without fast food. Which he hates so he probably thinks it is total persecution.
" Hey OP, listen to my advice alright." -Tha General
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MYT
"No scientific discovery is named after its original discoverer." -Stigler's Law of Eponymy, discovered by Robert K. Merton
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- Kraken
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Re: NY vs. Trump - Hush Money Trial
Futhermore, if he testifies he is certain to perjure himself. Truth is whatever he believes at a given moment.
- Kurth
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Re: NY vs. Trump - Hush Money Trial
Wasn't that segment taped before his contempt hearing yesterday?
Also, while those statements about Cohen certainly seem to fall within the gag order, it's troubling to me that any defendant would be precluded from defending himself in public statements. When Merchan expanded the gag order earlier this month, he said he was doing it to protect witnesses and those participating in the trial from Trump's attacks. But these statements Trump made about Cohen are facts. He is a convicted felon. He is an admitted liar. Feels wrong to me that Trump can't say so in his defense.
Obviously, Trump has a long and tortured relationship with the truth. I don't think he should be able to spew his false bullshit all around Truth Social or to whatever cable news lackey wants to give him air time. And people who have nothing to do with the charges against him - family members of the court or the lawyers or witnesses - should be off limits.
But if Trump wants to attack Michael Cohen by pointing out repeatedly that he's a convicted felon and a liar, that seems like it should be fair game.
All that said, I hope he really does violate the order in some spectacular way that results in him being jailed. That would be outstanding!
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- GreenGoo
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Re: NY vs. Trump - Hush Money Trial
It's possible to defend yourself in public without making comments on witnesses, court proceedings, or judges' daughters. If you're not an idiot.
- Zarathud
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Re: NY vs. Trump - Hush Money Trial
Trump can say those things IN COURT. Not in the newspapers and on TV where he can prejudice the jury and inflame the public before testimony is given.
"If the facts don't fit the theory, change the facts." - Albert Einstein
"I don't stand by anything." - Trump
“Bad men need nothing more to compass their ends, than that good men should look on and do nothing.” - John Stuart Mill, Inaugural Address Delivered to the University of St Andrews, 2/1/1867
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"I don't stand by anything." - Trump
“Bad men need nothing more to compass their ends, than that good men should look on and do nothing.” - John Stuart Mill, Inaugural Address Delivered to the University of St Andrews, 2/1/1867
“It is the impractical things in this tumultuous hell-scape of a world that matter most. A book, a name, chicken soup. They help us remember that, even in our darkest hour, life is still to be savored.” - Poe, Altered Carbon
- Pyperkub
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Re: NY vs. Trump - Hush Money Trial
He blurted out National Security secrets and burned intelligence assets as President. It's definitely the first.
Black Lives definitely Matter Lorini!
Also: There are three ways to not tell the truth: lies, damned lies, and statistics.
Also: There are three ways to not tell the truth: lies, damned lies, and statistics.
- LordMortis
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Re: NY vs. Trump - Hush Money Trial
He was such a daily fuck up as president with so many things vying for attention, I'd totally forgotten those things. It's such a waterfall of how bad he was and how much damage he's done that it's impossible to keep straight unless you have an exceptional memory or are a biographer. "On this day in 2017, 2018, 2019, and 2020..." to say nothing of 2016. Ugh. I'm getting triggered. They must love owning me.
- LawBeefaroni
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Re: NY vs. Trump - Hush Money Trial
Relive those halcyon days in real time:LordMortis wrote: ↑Wed Apr 24, 2024 2:51 pm He was such a daily fuck up as president with so many things vying for attention, I'd totally forgotten those things. It's such a waterfall of how bad he was and how much damage he's done that it's impossible to keep straight unless you have an exceptional memory or are a biographer. "On this day in 2017, 2018, 2019, and 2020..." to say nothing of 2016. Ugh. I'm getting triggered. They must love owning me.
https://octopusoverlords.com/forum/view ... 1#p2438101
" Hey OP, listen to my advice alright." -Tha General
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MYT
"No scientific discovery is named after its original discoverer." -Stigler's Law of Eponymy, discovered by Robert K. Merton
MYT
- Smoove_B
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Re: NY vs. Trump - Hush Money Trial
It was 4 years ago this week that he was advising us to consider drinking or injecting bleach. And now he's falling asleep in court. Those wheels of justice turn slow...
Maybe next year, maybe no go
- Holman
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Re: NY vs. Trump - Hush Money Trial
It's remarkable how correctly prescient it was possible to be even in the first days of that wretched administration.LawBeefaroni wrote: ↑Wed Apr 24, 2024 3:04 pmRelive those halcyon days in real time:LordMortis wrote: ↑Wed Apr 24, 2024 2:51 pm He was such a daily fuck up as president with so many things vying for attention, I'd totally forgotten those things. It's such a waterfall of how bad he was and how much damage he's done that it's impossible to keep straight unless you have an exceptional memory or are a biographer. "On this day in 2017, 2018, 2019, and 2020..." to say nothing of 2016. Ugh. I'm getting triggered. They must love owning me.
https://octopusoverlords.com/forum/view ... 1#p2438101
And then there's Rip.
Much prefer my Nazis Nuremberged.
- waitingtoconnect
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Re: NY vs. Trump - Hush Money Trial
Exactly he and his businesses have had over 1000 cases brought against them and they usually win. He’s teflon Don.LawBeefaroni wrote: ↑Wed Apr 24, 2024 10:20 am If past results are any indication, he's right. He has seved no jail time for a career built on breaking the law and violating every ethical standard that exists. He was elected president of the United States for fuck's sake. He was vested $1B in a scam company yesterday.
You can blame him for a lot but it's hard to blame him for thinking that he's untouchable when it's been proven time and again. His only punishment has been made to sit in boring courtrooms without fast food. Which he hates so he probably thinks it is total persecution.
I fully expect there is a trump loyalist on the jury and it will be deadlocked.
That or when the jury retires their names will be leaked and they will in fear refuse to convict. Or the judge will have to call a mistrial to protect them.
- LordMortis
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Re: NY vs. Trump - Hush Money Trial
I can't see how there won't be.waitingtoconnect wrote: ↑Wed Apr 24, 2024 5:26 pm I fully expect there is a trump loyalist on the jury and it will be deadlocked.
- Kurth
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Re: NY vs. Trump - Hush Money Trial
+1LordMortis wrote: ↑Wed Apr 24, 2024 5:39 pmI can't see how there won't be.waitingtoconnect wrote: ↑Wed Apr 24, 2024 5:26 pm I fully expect there is a trump loyalist on the jury and it will be deadlocked.
Just 'cause you feel it, doesn't mean it's there -- Radiohead
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- Kraken
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Re: NY vs. Trump - Hush Money Trial
+2. I just assume that the fix is in, because it always is. The best we're going to get is the thousand cuts he's taking while the trial goes on.Kurth wrote: ↑Wed Apr 24, 2024 7:25 pm+1LordMortis wrote: ↑Wed Apr 24, 2024 5:39 pmI can't see how there won't be.waitingtoconnect wrote: ↑Wed Apr 24, 2024 5:26 pm I fully expect there is a trump loyalist on the jury and it will be deadlocked.
It looks like SCOTUS is going to slow-walk the spurious immunity decision long enough to ensure that the most important case can't go forward before the election.
- Kurth
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Re: NY vs. Trump - Hush Money Trial
Just to be clear, that’s not “the fix.”Kraken wrote: ↑Wed Apr 24, 2024 9:52 pm+2. I just assume that the fix is in, because it always is. The best we're going to get is the thousand cuts he's taking while the trial goes on.Kurth wrote: ↑Wed Apr 24, 2024 7:25 pm+1LordMortis wrote: ↑Wed Apr 24, 2024 5:39 pmI can't see how there won't be.waitingtoconnect wrote: ↑Wed Apr 24, 2024 5:26 pm I fully expect there is a trump loyalist on the jury and it will be deadlocked.
It’s the system. Feature, not a bug.
Just cause the outcome may not (will likely not) be what we want, it doesn’t mean the justice system has malfunctioned or is rigged.
Just 'cause you feel it, doesn't mean it's there -- Radiohead
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- Kraken
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Re: NY vs. Trump - Hush Money Trial
Fair enough. Having been through it multiple times myself, I do respect the integrity of the jury selection process. Otherwise I stand by what I wrote: the jury will not convict, but the trial itself will ding trump's support.Kurth wrote: ↑Wed Apr 24, 2024 11:29 pmJust to be clear, that’s not “the fix.”Kraken wrote: ↑Wed Apr 24, 2024 9:52 pm+2. I just assume that the fix is in, because it always is. The best we're going to get is the thousand cuts he's taking while the trial goes on.Kurth wrote: ↑Wed Apr 24, 2024 7:25 pm+1LordMortis wrote: ↑Wed Apr 24, 2024 5:39 pmI can't see how there won't be.waitingtoconnect wrote: ↑Wed Apr 24, 2024 5:26 pm I fully expect there is a trump loyalist on the jury and it will be deadlocked.
It’s the system. Feature, not a bug.
Just cause the outcome may not (will likely not) be what we want, it doesn’t mean the justice system has malfunctioned or is rigged.
- Blackhawk
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Re: NY vs. Trump - Hush Money Trial
Something can be a feature, but not a bug, and still be a flaw.
(˙pǝsɹǝʌǝɹ uǝǝq sɐɥ ʎʇıʌɐɹƃ ʃɐuosɹǝd ʎW)
- LordMortis
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Re: NY vs. Trump - Hush Money Trial
+1 again. For good or ill. 100 guilty men go free and all that...Kurth wrote: ↑Wed Apr 24, 2024 11:29 pmJust to be clear, that’s not “the fix.”Kraken wrote: ↑Wed Apr 24, 2024 9:52 pm+2. I just assume that the fix is in, because it always is. The best we're going to get is the thousand cuts he's taking while the trial goes on.Kurth wrote: ↑Wed Apr 24, 2024 7:25 pm+1LordMortis wrote: ↑Wed Apr 24, 2024 5:39 pmI can't see how there won't be.waitingtoconnect wrote: ↑Wed Apr 24, 2024 5:26 pm I fully expect there is a trump loyalist on the jury and it will be deadlocked.
It’s the system. Feature, not a bug.
Just cause the outcome may not (will likely not) be what we want, it doesn’t mean the justice system has malfunctioned or is rigged.
- GreenGoo
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Re: NY vs. Trump - Hush Money Trial
Bad design is bad design. Especially obvious if the outcome is accurate to the design, but the design was intended to produce something else. We all know why the electoral college exists. And it might have even made sense at the time of creation. Is it creating reasonable outcomes today? If we assume the purpose was equal representation, I'd say it does not produce reasonable outcomes, despite working as designed.
Yes, looking at a different, but similar, philosophically, situation.
However, I'm with LM with regard to erring on the side of caution when it comes to government punishment of civilians. At the same time, a single corrupt individual shouldn't result in a complete miscarriage of justice. Do I have a solution? No. This is not my field of study.
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Re: NY vs. Trump - Hush Money Trial
Why would a single juror refusing to find Trump guilty beyond a reasonable doubt be “corrupt,” or am I misunderstanding your post?GreenGoo wrote: ↑Thu Apr 25, 2024 9:13 amBad design is bad design. Especially obvious if the outcome is accurate to the design, but the design was intended to produce something else. We all know why the electoral college exists. And it might have even made sense at the time of creation. Is it creating reasonable outcomes today? If we assume the purpose was equal representation, I'd say it does not produce reasonable outcomes, despite working as designed.
Yes, looking at a different, but similar, philosophically, situation.
However, I'm with LM with regard to erring on the side of caution when it comes to government punishment of civilians. At the same time, a single corrupt individual shouldn't result in a complete miscarriage of justice. Do I have a solution? No. This is not my field of study.
Just 'cause you feel it, doesn't mean it's there -- Radiohead
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- Unagi
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Re: NY vs. Trump - Hush Money Trial
I believe they are speaking to the idea that a juror goes in, unwilling to hear the evidence and is only there to corrupt the process - not participate in it honestly.
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Re: NY vs. Trump - Hush Money Trial
Fair enough. And that’s always a possibility, although the jury selection process is designed to mitigate that risk.
But even in that instance, I’d lean away from calling the justice system rigged or fixed.
Just 'cause you feel it, doesn't mean it's there -- Radiohead
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- Unagi
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Re: NY vs. Trump - Hush Money Trial
I agree. It's a weakness, not a rigging or fixing.
I don't know if the mitigation is enough, and so - it may be accurate to say "the fix is in". alas.
- Jaymon
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Re: NY vs. Trump - Hush Money Trial
The ability to find 18 people in New York, or anywhere in the USA who are impartial and have no preexisting bias about Trump seems ...slim.
Bunnies like beer because its made from hops.
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Re: NY vs. Trump - Hush Money Trial
But, courts deal with this concept/issue all the time... and they instruct jurors very clearly that broadly speaking; they don't have to have "no pre-existing views" - they need to be able to weigh the evidence in this case and feel like they can weigh it on its merits.
- GreenGoo
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Re: NY vs. Trump - Hush Money Trial
In the context of this discussion where a MAGA member has managed to make it onto the jury and refused the reality presented to him.
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Re: NY vs. Trump - Hush Money Trial
That is what I was referring to, the ability of a single individual to sideline the entire system for personal motives. And yeah, while that's a flaw in the system (despite my not knowing the solution), I wouldn't call that rigged. It's not a plan, it's an outside manipulation. The flaw is the system not having a counter for it.
(˙pǝsɹǝʌǝɹ uǝǝq sɐɥ ʎʇıʌɐɹƃ ʃɐuosɹǝd ʎW)
- YellowKing
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Re: NY vs. Trump - Hush Money Trial
The worst thing Trump ever did to this country was to demonstrate that the assumptions society runs on (that people are generally moral and follow the rules) is a house of cards that is easily toppled.
- Carpet_pissr
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Re: NY vs. Trump - Hush Money Trial
Best, or worst? Better to continue living in the Matrix?YellowKing wrote: ↑Thu Apr 25, 2024 4:45 pm The worst thing Trump ever did to this country was to demonstrate that the assumptions society runs on (that people are generally moral and follow the rules) is a house of cards that is easily toppled.
- YellowKing
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Re: NY vs. Trump - Hush Money Trial
Considering I don't think this can be fixed in my lifetime, I'd have rather continued living in the Matrix.
- Blackhawk
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Re: NY vs. Trump - Hush Money Trial
The first step to fixing something is to recognize it. If we ever do manage to fix things, it'll be because Trump showed us what was broken.
If we can't fix things, it doesn't matter.
If he'd never exposed the flaws, they might have gone much further before we saw the problem.
If we can't fix things, it doesn't matter.
If he'd never exposed the flaws, they might have gone much further before we saw the problem.
(˙pǝsɹǝʌǝɹ uǝǝq sɐɥ ʎʇıʌɐɹƃ ʃɐuosɹǝd ʎW)
- Alefroth
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Re: NY vs. Trump - Hush Money Trial
Thanks Trump!
- Blackhawk
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Re: NY vs. Trump - Hush Money Trial
Terrible people doing terrible things is often a prerequisite for both recognizing how terrible the thing is, and deciding to stop it from happening again.
(˙pǝsɹǝʌǝɹ uǝǝq sɐɥ ʎʇıʌɐɹƃ ʃɐuosɹǝd ʎW)
- Carpet_pissr
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Re: NY vs. Trump - Hush Money Trial
Yeah, I should have added that it was a serious, non-snarky question.YellowKing wrote: ↑Sat Apr 27, 2024 2:32 pm Considering I don't think this can be fixed in my lifetime, I'd have rather continued living in the Matrix.
Happy and clueless or miserable and informed? Choose!
- YellowKing
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Re: NY vs. Trump - Hush Money Trial
I know it's a problem that needed to be exposed in order to be fixed, but the fact remains that government still functioned somewhat with the house of cards in place. As long as politicians believed that they would be held accountable for their actions, there was some semblance of order. When Trump demonstrated that they, in fact, could get away with anything with his popularity as the umbrella, it all went to hell.
I kind of equate it to shoplifting. One shoplifter knows there are cameras, security guards, etc. so they refrain from stealing most of the time. Trump came along and introduced the flash mob smash and grab technique, and now all of a sudden all those shoplifters that were scared individually have safety in numbers to take whatever they want.
My only glimmer of optimism is that it's entirely possible that this scheme falls apart without Trump. I'm not certain the party gets to enjoy those protections from their voters without someone at the head that has such a devoted cult-like following.
I kind of equate it to shoplifting. One shoplifter knows there are cameras, security guards, etc. so they refrain from stealing most of the time. Trump came along and introduced the flash mob smash and grab technique, and now all of a sudden all those shoplifters that were scared individually have safety in numbers to take whatever they want.
My only glimmer of optimism is that it's entirely possible that this scheme falls apart without Trump. I'm not certain the party gets to enjoy those protections from their voters without someone at the head that has such a devoted cult-like following.
- Carpet_pissr
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Re: NY vs. Trump - Hush Money Trial
I doubt the behavior learned from Trump will go away with him. He showed them a wildly successful model. I doubt people will just ignore that if he were suddenly Thanos snapped out of existence todayYellowKing wrote: ↑Sun Apr 28, 2024 9:56 am I know it's a problem that needed to be exposed in order to be fixed, but the fact remains that government still functioned somewhat with the house of cards in place. As long as politicians believed that they would be held accountable for their actions, there was some semblance of order. When Trump demonstrated that they, in fact, could get away with anything with his popularity as the umbrella, it all went to hell.
I kind of equate it to shoplifting. One shoplifter knows there are cameras, security guards, etc. so they refrain from stealing most of the time. Trump came along and introduced the flash mob smash and grab technique, and now all of a sudden all those shoplifters that were scared individually have safety in numbers to take whatever they want.
My only glimmer of optimism is that it's entirely possible that this scheme falls apart without Trump. I'm not certain the party gets to enjoy those protections from their voters without someone at the head that has such a devoted cult-like following.