Now Wisconsin

[msduncan]

Day of Rage spreads to WISCONSIN!!!!!!!

Link!

[Mr. Fed]

Hooray! A march where the privileged and entitled can threaten to shut the system down if regular working citizens don't continue to pay whatever they demand for their benefits!

[Enough]

Hooray! A march where the privileged and entitled can threaten to shut the system down if regular working citizens don't continue to pay whatever they demand for their benefits!

Tell us how you really feel!

[Mr. Fed]

Hooray! A march where the privileged and entitled can threaten to shut the system down if regular working citizens don't continue to pay whatever they demand for their benefits!

Tell us how you really feel!

I think that public employee unions are generally a strong force for social evil, in case that wasn't clear.

Don't get me started on how prison guard unions have warped California's criminal justice system to make money, for instance.

[Rip]

Hooray! A march where the privileged and entitled can threaten to shut the system down if regular working citizens don't continue to pay whatever they demand for their benefits!

The worst part is I have heard that certain political "organizers" are encouraging other to go on the pretense it is some kind of freedom march. I fully expected certain political interests in Egypt to capitalize on the unrest mania. I didn't really expect our own political forces to exploit it. Particularly not under the ridiculous premise that WE are somehow oppressed.

I think they may be treading into dangerous territory that may cause the day of rage to be the next election day.

Rip

[Exodor]

Now the Democrats have left the building

And the state:

So now we have at least one report from local TV in Wisconsin that the state's Democratic senators have left the state entirely, putting them out of the reach of the state police who have been ordered to round them up so that Republicans have a quorum and can take up Gov. Walker's union-busting budget bill.

[Pyperkub]

Hooray! A march where the privileged and entitled can threaten to shut the system down if regular working citizens don't continue to pay whatever they demand for their benefits!

The worst part is I have heard that certain political "organizers" are encouraging other to go on the pretense it is some kind of freedom march. I fully expected certain political interests in Egypt to capitalize on the unrest mania. I didn't really expect our own political forces to exploit it. Particularly not under the ridiculous premise that WE are somehow oppressed.

I think they may be treading into dangerous territory that may cause the day of rage to be the next election day.

Rip

Would that be worse than manufacturing the budget crisis in order to make this kind of move? Because that is what's being alleged in one of the Madison papers:

the nonpartisan Legislative Fiscal Bureau recently released a memo detailing how the state will end the 2009-2011 budget biennium with a budget surplus.

In its Jan. 31 memo to legislators on the condition of the state’s budget, the Fiscal Bureau determined that the state will end the year with a balance of $121.4 million.

To the extent that there is an imbalance -- Walker claims there is a $137 million deficit -- it is not because of a drop in revenues or increases in the cost of state employee contracts, benefits or pensions. It is because Walker and his allies pushed through $140 million in new spending for special-interest groups in January. If the Legislature were simply to rescind Walker’s new spending schemes -- or delay their implementation until they are offset by fresh revenues -- the “crisis” would not exist.

I wouldn't have a problem with a national campaign to stop that kind of chicanery whatsoever. I don't think you would either if the gov were democratic and the special-interest group spending were for Union benefits.

[Rip]

Hooray! A march where the privileged and entitled can threaten to shut the system down if regular working citizens don't continue to pay whatever they demand for their benefits!

The worst part is I have heard that certain political "organizers" are encouraging other to go on the pretense it is some kind of freedom march. I fully expected certain political interests in Egypt to capitalize on the unrest mania. I didn't really expect our own political forces to exploit it. Particularly not under the ridiculous premise that WE are somehow oppressed.

I think they may be treading into dangerous territory that may cause the day of rage to be the next election day.

Rip

Would that be worse than manufacturing the budget crisis in order to make this kind of move? Because that is what's being alleged in one of the Madison papers:

the nonpartisan Legislative Fiscal Bureau recently released a memo detailing how the state will end the 2009-2011 budget biennium with a budget surplus.

In its Jan. 31 memo to legislators on the condition of the state’s budget, the Fiscal Bureau determined that the state will end the year with a balance of $121.4 million.

To the extent that there is an imbalance -- Walker claims there is a $137 million deficit -- it is not because of a drop in revenues or increases in the cost of state employee contracts, benefits or pensions. It is because Walker and his allies pushed through $140 million in new spending for special-interest groups in January. If the Legislature were simply to rescind Walker’s new spending schemes -- or delay their implementation until they are offset by fresh revenues -- the “crisis” would not exist.

I wouldn't have a problem with a national campaign to stop that kind of chicanery whatsoever. I don't think you would either if the gov were democratic and the special-interest group spending were for Union benefits.

I would be all for the legislature doing whatever they desire when they were elected to do so. If they pass legislation that the voters don't like, they pay at the polls like everyone else. I don't think it is proper for powers outside the state to assist in circumventing the execution of the powers of a properly elected state legislature.

Campaigning is one thing but playing outside the rules when it suits you is insulting to the voters of the state and thus to the voters of every state. I didn't care for it when the Texas Republicans did it and I like it even less this time.

[Enough]

Some points to consider... (and I know there are plenty of nasty examples of organized labor behaving badly, don't get me wrong)

Most public sector jobs actually pay less wages than similar private sector jobs, so in a sense those nice benefits you are paying for could just as well be wages we would have to pay to attract the talent we need. Or should we expect that people who want to give their professional lives to public service should not only make less money than private sector equivalents, but their benefits should suck ass too?

And this is really a union-busting bill more than a budget fixing bill, let's be honest. Private sector employees will have more collective bargaining rights than state employees if this goes through. And since they will no longer have full collective bargaining rights, it seems WI might not be able to receive federal funding for mass transit. Hmm, maybe this will lead WI to have to privatize buses, etc. And then when we hear how the budget crisis is in ways a manufactured one (see Pyperkub's post), it becomes obvious that this is honed more to bust up unions than it is to solve a fiscal crisis. There are budget saving measures in the bill, but those could be done without destroying collective bargaining.

Oh and I didn't realize how incestuous state gov't is in WI until I saw it on TPM but,

The Senate majority leader, Scott Fitzgerald, who is ordering the state police to track down the wayward Democratic senators is the son of the head of the state police, Steve Fitzgerald, who in turn was appointed to the top spot by Walker. Steve Fitzgerald is also the father of the state's speaker of the House, Jeff Fitzgerald.

Talk about your powerful families, dang.

[Mookee]

Hooray! A march where the privileged and entitled can threaten to shut the system down if regular working citizens don't continue to pay whatever they demand for their benefits!

And as a regular Wisconsin citizen paying for them: yay! I hope they shut it down and if it does pass they should all walk out and shut down the state. Walker is horrible and it is a mess here right now. (hint: it's not about the benefits)

[Grundbegriff]

"We'll try to stay serene and calm...
When Alabama gets the bomb!"

[RunningMn9]

Most public sector jobs actually pay less wages than similar private sector jobs, so in a sense those nice benefits you are paying for could just as well be wages we would have to pay to attract the talent we need. Or should we expect that people who want to give their professional lives to public service should not only make less money than private sector equivalents, but their benefits should suck ass too?

Without getting into the specifics of WI, since I don't really know them, we live in a for-profit world, and public sector employees generate no profit for their employers. Not directly anyway. When I was in that world, my job helped generate millions of dollars for my employers. Their incentive to offer competitive compensation is much higher.

This isn't to say that public sector employees are any more or less important. But they represent a pure financial drain to their employers, and their compensation suffers as a result. But I don't want to hear too much belly-aching. The two female gym teachers at my old high school are both making almost $100k, with a retarded benefits package.

That's complete insanity. And I won't feel bad if Gov. Christie here can break the system that allowed it to happen.

[LordMortis]

This isn't to say that public sector employees are any more or less important. But they represent a pure financial drain to their employers, and their compensation suffers as a result. But I don't want to hear too much belly-aching. The two female gym teachers at my old high school are both making almost $100k, with a retarded benefits package.

That's complete insanity. And I won't feel bad if Gov. Christie here can break the system that allowed it to happen.

And historically they've had better job security and insulation from economic turmoil and have not had their Value Added performance tied to the VA/VE of the company.

Now I don't know what's going on in Wisconsin but in Michigan I'd love to see many of the state unions broken and the insanity of state sponsored employment reeled in. I'd like to start actually with state contractors, and oddly enough this is something Snyder would actually be doing right but he's found out that he can't control nor even influence state contractors at this point. They can't be outed for a few more years and then he can only influence the influencers. Shit's gotta change.

This does not mean full time state workers fulfilling important functions should not get a livable wage. But as your example states, there are too many examples WTF? Reeling and totally destroying are two different things... In Michigan, I fear our current governor is going to to go way too far, while concurrently taxing retirees and businesses right out of the state, where the exit sign is already too plainly seen on the wall.

http://www.lansingstatejournal.com/arti ... Business|s" target="_blank

Edit: Why is it always about cutting or maintaining crazy levels of increase? Why isn't it ever about freezing things for an extended period?

[RunningMn9]

Why isn't it ever about freezing things for an extended period?

Because, politically-speaking, those are called "cuts" (you are "cutting" future expected increases).

These two gym teachers got raises and got to keep their jobs, while I made my employer money - and still had to eat a 10% pay cut and eventually lost my job anyway. You can't have that going on, and then have the teachers cry "woe is me". I'm not at all sympathetic at the moment.

[Exodor]

It all makes sense now

Glenn Beck told viewers of his Fox News program today that the U.N., unions and the Muslim Brotherhood were all just working towards a New World Order and that protesters in Wisconsin were "looking to create chaos on the backs of the worker when the world's focus is on Egypt."

I'm sure the Nazis are involved somehow too.

[Enough]

Why isn't it ever about freezing things for an extended period?

Because, politically-speaking, those are called "cuts" (you are "cutting" future expected increases).

These two gym teachers got raises and got to keep their jobs, while I made my employer money - and still had to eat a 10% pay cut and eventually lost my job anyway. You can't have that going on, and then have the teachers cry "woe is me". I'm not at all sympathetic at the moment.

I keep forgetting you live in NJ. Here in CO we have the CSAP return to basics testing going on paired with SB-191 so if teachers don't get enough students to get a passing score they will now be fired, tenure or no (if you are in a progressive district they have some flexibility to use other measures in addition to CSAP, but most look likely to use the standardized testing as the baseline). This in theory seems like a sound plan, but what if you are a teacher like my sister who specializes in at risk and developmentally disabled kids? Surely they would have something to account for that? Nope, no guarantee. So when this goes into effect over the coming years we are going to lose a lot of excellent teachers (I don't think my sister with her double masters makes more than 40-50K). I pray my sister isn't one of them. And then if you teach older kids, you had better hope you don't have a class of trolls that would bomb the test just to get you in trouble.

So, does this sound like a fun, rewarding and secure field to go into? How about going for being a teacher in free and reduced lunch schools commonly being labeled as "failing" under CSAP? I get there are situations like you describe in NJ that are squarely on the teachers and unions, but blaming teachers for all of the systemic problems--both in our society and in our education system is the height of the modern American predilection for not wanting to take responsibility. We all bear some burden of responsibility.

[hepcat]

It all makes sense now

Glenn Beck told viewers of his Fox News program today that the U.N., unions and the Muslim Brotherhood were all just working towards a New World Order and that protesters in Wisconsin were "looking to create chaos on the backs of the worker when the world's focus is on Egypt."

I'm sure the Nazis are involved somehow too.

wow...the level of tin foil hat craziness in that assertion boggles the mind. that anyone would buy into it even more so.

[Smoove_B]

Most public sector jobs actually pay less wages than similar private sector jobs, so in a sense those nice benefits you are paying for could just as well be wages we would have to pay to attract the talent we need. Or should we expect that people who want to give their professional lives to public service should not only make less money than private sector equivalents, but their benefits should suck ass too?

I can only speak for what I see in NJ, and for the longest time I believed these lies - that our salaries were way lower than the private sector and the real draw was the excellent benefits - benefits that for the most part took 20+ years to pay out. For a long time - probably the 1970s and early 1980s, that was definitely the case. But now salaries and benefits are on par and probably better than the private sector in most cases and it doesn't take a lifetime of service to start seeing them.

I can also see the same exact thing that's going on in WI right now happening in NJ. Our Governor is positioning to dismantle the Teacher's Union and I'm sure everyone involved is watching how it all unfolds in WI very carefully. As a former employee of the public sector and now someone that's part of a teacher's union I cannot believe the kinds of things our union leaders are demanding with a straight face. It's beyond unreasonable and completely insane.

[malchior]

I'm not all that sympathetic to the unions being a New Jersey-an as well, but I don't think busting unions is the way to combat the problem. Plans like this are treating a symptom.

The problem IMO is the pols who agreed to these ridiculous contracts in the first place, then proceeded to not fund them, plan for the repercussions, have any semblance of fiduciary common sense, or clearly have policies in place for the well-connected to game them.

For instance, the pension system in NJ is infuriating. Upon retirement, a calculation is performed to figure out the pension: take the years of service and divide it by 55 then multiply that by your average salary over the last three years worked. For the common worker, this isn't a whole lot of money. However if you are any which way politically connected, you will have 2 or 3 jobs with jacked salaries upon retirement. Those 2 or 3 jobs will all count towards both the salary average and the years of service. Oh, and lifetime health benefits cost-free.

If you're a professional police officer or fire fighter, you only have to work 25 years to get 65% salary. Hurray! They partially phased that out. Now, if you started after 1999, then you have to work until you are 55 (oh the horror!) and then you'll get between 65% and 70%.

Oh, and the best part -- the whole system is basically unfunded, so it's going to collapse. There is a reason why the tax rate (income and property taxes) pretty much halves the second you cross the Delaware River.

[RunningMn9]

I get there are situations like you describe in NJ that are squarely on the teachers and unions, but blaming teachers for all of the systemic problems--both in our society and in our education system is the height of the modern American predilection for not wanting to take responsibility. We all bear some burden of responsibility.

All I know about is the interaction between the NJEA and the State, and the State has been repeatedly boned by the union.

When your employer can't afford to keep paying you, something has to give. Whether you are in the public or private sector. You hope that it's the shitty employees that have to give - but the union (at least here in NJ) ensures that the exact opposite happens.

[malchior]

I can only speak for what I see in NJ, and for the longest time I believed these lies - that our salaries were way lower than the private sector and the real draw was the excellent benefits - benefits that for the most part took 20+ years to pay out. For a long time - probably the 1970s and early 1980s, that was definitely the case. But now salaries and benefits are on par and probably better than the private sector in most cases and it doesn't take a lifetime of service to start seeing them.

I think it all depends on the job type and institution. When I worked for the state in IT, I found that we were all generally far underpaid compared to the private market. Many of us ejected out for that very reason. I walked out to a 20% increase and am up something like 35% in only 4 years. I should have left far earlier.

As a former employee of the public sector and now someone that's part of a teacher's union I cannot believe the kinds of things our union leaders are demanding with a straight face. It's beyond unreasonable and completely insane.

I totally agree. I don't know if it is a bubble effect, but the demands they are/were making while mass layoffs were occurring to their neighbors was unconscionable. They were perfectly happy to sacrifice kids who made 30% of their salaries to layoffs to protect their precious raises. I personally know ~10 kids who were cut out at the beginning of their careers because people wouldn't take freezes.

Still I don't advocate busting the unions. IMO, they have little support anyway and it's a distraction to keep our focus off the real issues.

[Smoove_B]

I think it all depends on the job type and institution. When I worked for the state in IT, I found that we were all generally far underpaid compared to the private market. Many of us ejected out for that very reason. I walked out to a 20% increase and am up something like 35% in only 4 years. I should have left far earlier.

"It depends" is definitely the core of the argument. At my last public sector job, I worked with IT staff that were definitely making less than their counterparts in the private sector. However, they had full coverage for medical/dental/eyeglasses, a $5 co-pay and exactly $0 (that's zero) taken out of their paychecks for medical benefits. I doubt they've lost positions over the last 6 years and I'm pretty sure their benefits are the same. I'd rather take those odds than working in IT for the private sector. When I left I think it was quoted as a medical benefit package worth ~$24,000 a year.

Still I don't advocate busting the unions. IMO, they have little support anyway and it's a distraction to keep our focus off the real issues.

They had huge support until last year in NJ. But a few vocal lunatics ruined that rather quick. While it may be a smokescreen in WI, I can't see how any type of budgetary issue can be addressed until all of the public sector unions are evaluated. The Teachers might be the softest target right now but I don't believe for a second they're the only ones that will come under fire in the coming year.

[malchior]

However, they had full coverage for medical/dental/eyeglasses, a $5 co-pay and exactly $0 (that's zero) taken out of their paychecks for medical benefits. I doubt they've lost positions over the last 6 years and I'm pretty sure their benefits are the same. I'd rather take those odds than working in IT for the private sector. When I left I think it was quoted as a medical benefit package worth ~$24,000 a year.

I thought they did away with the free medical? I was paying 1.5% and was amused when I get out of there that I paid less for coverage in the private world, and still do at company number 2 since leaving the sanctum.

[stessier]

I'm not all that sympathetic to the unions being a New Jersey-an as well, but I don't think busting unions is the way to combat the problem.

I wouldn't really term it busting the unions. Permission to organize was granted by a statue. This would change the statue. The effect is the same, but saying "busting" seems to indicate they've always the right.

Apparently the Dems are holed up in Chicago and Rockford. The article I read was careful to mention the Assemblyman they interviewed was using his own money for his hotel room. All I could think was if any one of those guys uses a public dime for their room, they'll like be drawn and quartered during the next election.

[hepcat]

Apparently the Dems are holed up in Chicago and Rockford .

ah man, leave 'em alone then. they're already suffering...

[malchior]

I can only imagine that they looked at Minnesota and Iowa and realized they'd be deported. Canada is too cold even for them, and the Upper Peninsula is a dangerous untamed wasteland. The choice was clear. They needed to hide amongst the company of people who really know their finances.

[stessier]

I'm betting it was for far more practical reasons. There's a lot of "red" state between Madison and MN. I bet they thought they'd never make it alive.

[RunningMn9]

I thought they did away with the free medical? I was paying 1.5% and was amused when I get out of there that I paid less for coverage in the private world, and still do at company number 2 since leaving the sanctum.

I'm paying about 32% of the cost of my premium, for mediocre coverage.

[malchior]

I'm paying about 32% of the cost of my premium, for mediocre coverage.

That was 1.5% of my annual salary for a single guy. The same 1.5% being paid by the guy in the office who sat next to me with 4 kids.

Still, it was slightly more than I pay now, but I am in a "growth" sector now, so the benefits definitely are top-notch. When I get married later this year it'll approximately double which seems fair. She works for a company with no coverage at all, so she buys her own. It's practically criminal how much they are charging her for shitty, shitty coverage.

[iloveplywood]

Why in God's name do state workers need unions? What's the concept behind this? It's crazy how much influence unions have over the public sector when compared to the private sector.

Interesting factoids: Wisconsin teachers average $46,0000 a year. Their benefit package is better than just about any private sector company could afford to pay and they get summers off. The very nature of their jobs makes saves them tons of daycare costs if they have kids (after school and summer). If I got to do it all over again I'd become a teacher and marry one -- and then I'd march and call people Nazi's whenever they try to hurt the children by reducing the rate of my pay increases.

Of course I don't blame the teachers for wanting to make as much as they can (though their rhetoric is crazy and it's sort of ironic that these same people probably lambast the anger of tea party members) but it always amazes me how non-teachers fall for their schtick.

[Scuzz]

Unions + Idiotic Policy Makers = Unfunded Pensions and Promises... that are sinking states, counties and cities all across America.

[Pyperkub]

Unions + Idiotic Policy Makers = Unfunded Pensions and Promises... that are sinking states, counties and cities all across America.

Especially those with Budget Surpluses, like Wisconsin had 6 weeks ago, until it was turned into a Budget Shortfall by almost $300 million in unpaid-for tax cuts.

It's kind of like saying you won't pay your mortgage because you just bought a ferrari for you and your wife, and you can't afford that mortgage anymore.

[Pyperkub]

And let's not forget, this is only about union-busting. It's serious hardball on union busting and cutting off organized labor at the knees (and will go nationwide in the Red States if successful, hence the national fight), but it has nothing to do with a Governor trying to balance a budget (because that budget was already balanced).

You have to give Gov. Walker and his wealthy patrons credit. Here we have a situation where Wall Street fat cats wrecked the economy - people like Richard Fuld, Robert Rubin, and Angelo Mozilo - and they've somehow managed to blame schoolteachers and the highway patrol. ...

...Now we have a situation where the villains are sitting on their hundreds of millions of dollars, while tough guys like Gov. Walker are beating up school teachers to take away their $2,000 a month pension. ...

...The reality that no honest person can dispute is that state budget crises are almost entirely due to the economic downturn, not out of control spending. This in turn was the result of Wall Street fraud and greed and the incredible incompetence of people like Alan Greenspan and Ben Bernanke, who failed to rein in the housing bubble before it grew to such dangerous levels.

However, politicians like Gov. Walker have managed to instead focus public anger on public sector employees who have the audacity to want to maintain a middle class life style.

[Fireball]

I wouldn't really term it busting the unions. Permission to organize was granted by a statue. This would change the statue. The effect is the same, but saying "busting" seems to indicate they've always the right.

They should have a right. Workers everywhere should have that right. Why should all the power in a negotiation between an employer and an average employee be on the side of the employer? Why shouldn't a group of employees be allowed to stand together to improve their position?

[RunningMn9]

They should have a right. Workers everywhere should have that right. Why should all the power in a negotiation between an employer and an average employee be on the side of the employer? Why shouldn't a group of employees be allowed to stand together to improve their position?

They should have a right. But they shouldn't have the right to exclusivity that they seem to get, when a place goes union, and all employees (present and future) are forced into it.

If I am not mistaken, private schools in NJ aren't union, and they still seem to find good teachers for less than the nonsense that goes on in our public schools.

[Isgrimnur]

But they shouldn't have the right to exclusivity that they seem to get, when a place goes union, and all employees (present and future) are forced into it.

There are 23 states where that's not the case.

[Zarathud]

If I am not mistaken, private schools in NJ aren't union, and they still seem to find good teachers for less than the nonsense that goes on in our public schools.

Schools need to stop insisting that they're looking for the "best and the brightest." I don't need a smart teacher to teach my kids -- I want an effective teacher to teach my kids. They just need to be smart and experienced enough to teach children less than half their age.

Once we get away from the hysteria of "it's for the children" and "budget crisis", both sides can negotiate reasonably. Wisconsin is advancing a political agenda, so I see no reason why the Democrats shouldn't make that as politically difficult as possible. In the mid-term, the public sector is going to get paid less and the private sector will bounce back and get paid more.

[Fireball]

If I am not mistaken, private schools in NJ aren't union, and they still seem to find good teachers for less than the nonsense that goes on in our public schools.

It is virtually impossible to compare public and private schools. Until private schools are required to accept not the 500 on best kids they can find, or the 500 best heeled kids they can find, but the 500 first kids to apply, or the 500 kids who live closest to the school, then the selection bias regarding their student population will render meaningless any attempt to analyze the relative effectiveness of the two types of schools. If public schools could kick out anyone with low grades, only take kids who were of certain religious or socio-economic backgrounds, and the like, then they could be more effective for fewer dollars, too.

[RunningMn9]

There are 23 states where that's not the case.

There are 27 states where that is the case. Including the only one that I actually care about.

It is virtually impossible to compare public and private schools. Until private schools are required to accept not the 500 on best kids they can find, or the 500 best heeled kids they can find, but the 500 first kids to apply, or the 500 kids who live closest to the school, then the selection bias regarding their student population will render meaningless any attempt to analyze the relative effectiveness of the two types of schools. If public schools could kick out anyone with low grades, only take kids who were of certain religious or socio-economic backgrounds, and the like, then they could be more effective for fewer dollars, too.

So because of this reason, it makes sense that a girl's high school gym teacher in a public school is pulling in $100K with gold-plated benefits? My point wasn't the performance of the students, it was the availability of teachers, at much more affordable wage/benefits scales (from the perspective of their employer anyway). Do my high school gym teachers really need $100K per year and gold-plated benefits to endure the lack of selection bias in the student population?

[GreenGoo]

I think what he was saying was that there is no point in using private schools as an example as to why the public system is broken, because while on the surface they may provide the same services, the reality is quite a bit different.

I don't think he tried to justify the salary of a teacher he's not familiar with. That would be somewhat foolish, I think.