Octopus Overlords

And so it begins:

https://themessenger.com/news/its-offic ... dent-biden

He promised to put it to a House vote but apparently didn’t have the votes, so he just announced it anyway. This is purely political, the Republicans gave been looking at this for months and have found nothing. I don’t expect anything to change.

Guess we're doing this. McCarthy pretty much signed up for this so I'm not going to say I'm too surprised.

At this point does it really matter? It's not going to sway voters one way or the other.

Probably no effect. It likely has a chance of hurting them as much as it helps them. It's just more chaos being spun into the mix. But there is already a lot of chaos so who knows what effect it will or won't have.

Will the House have enough votes to pass articles of impeachment?

I mean, assuming there's nothing of substance, I have to imagine that the ~15 Republican Representatives that won in Biden districts have to be unenthusiastic about this, since it probably hurts their chances of reelection.

It's too hard to game out...yet. However, traditional analysis suggests they don't have the votes because there are moderates afraid to lose their seats in swing districts or ... perhaps still have principles. Ok probably not the latter! You could imagine that power brokers could undermine them anyway by threatening fence sitters via primaries. This is a possibility since there are some hints of sharp knives in the GOP tent at the moment. Maybe they'll come out for a big prize like this.

Defiant wrote: ↑Tue Sep 12, 2023 12:55 pm Will the House have enough votes to pass articles of impeachment?

I mean, assuming there's nothing of substance, I have to imagine that the ~15 Republican Representatives that won in Biden districts have to be unenthusiastic about this, since it probably hurts their chances of reelection.

It probably won't come to that vote. But now they have an excuse to hold infinite hearings and to subpoena everyone, Biden included.

It's just counter-programming to the Trump trials.

Holman wrote: ↑Tue Sep 12, 2023 1:00 pm

Defiant wrote: ↑Tue Sep 12, 2023 12:55 pm Will the House have enough votes to pass articles of impeachment?

I mean, assuming there's nothing of substance, I have to imagine that the ~15 Republican Representatives that won in Biden districts have to be unenthusiastic about this, since it probably hurts their chances of reelection.

It probably won't come to that vote. But now they have an excuse to hold infinite hearings and to subpoena everyone, Biden included.

It's just counter-programming to the Trump trials.

This is a good point too. It probably is theater but it's the type of theater where they are shooting off fireworks in aisles.

malchior wrote: ↑Tue Sep 12, 2023 12:52 pm Probably no effect. It likely has a chance of hurting them as much as it helps them. It's just more chaos being spun into the mix. But there is already a lot of chaos so who knows what effect it will or won't have.

Part of the steady erosion of U.S. politics, though probably a small part. Trumpists sell a vision of the world in which everyone is corrupt, so that corruption just becomes another partisan issue where it's essentially ok to be corrupt as long as you're also owning the libs. The core advantage becomes that they can tell low-information right-leaning voters that Trump's crimes are no big deal because Biden was also impeached.

stessier wrote: ↑Tue Sep 12, 2023 12:52 pm

Re: El Guapo’s post (because replying/quoting on mobile with this forum software/my tiny phone is awful):

This is absolutely true in terms of the messaging being broadcast to the right:
social experiment: if you have access to a right-winger (MAGAT, better, but both should work), bring up how corrupt Trump and his admin were.

Guaranteed response saying Biden is just as bad, if not worse. It’s been drilled into their brains.

And if you DON’T have access to your own personal right winger, I hate you, you suck.

It's the last refuge for objectively indefensible conduct. "Everyone does it / it's how things work." That, and it's also part of Trump's typical methodology of flooding the zone with bullshit to make it harder to easily ferret out the truth.

wait. did I read this right?

if you are the child of a president, and you use your family name to enrich yourself personally, then your parent is is corrupt and should be impeached?

just clarifying

Jaymon wrote: ↑Tue Sep 12, 2023 1:20 pm wait. did I read this right?

if you are the child of a president, and you use your family name to enrich yourself personally, then your parent is is corrupt and should be impeached?

just clarifying

For the most part the reason doesn't matter. Biden is a lib and is bad, and he's opposed to Trump. Also Trump was unfairly impeached, so this is only fair.

But also in MAGA world President Biden is brazenly corrupt himself. There's a quote from one of Hunter Biden's e-mails where he references something like "10% for the big guy" and it is axiomatic in MAGA world that that means that Biden himself was / is getting 10% of the payoff that they imagine in their heads.

Good to see the House is focusing on the most important issues right now.

Kinda figured they'd impeach in 2024 - as a lead up to the election. Not sure they can edge the GOP for over a year at this point, but maybe I'm wrong.

Grifman wrote: ↑Tue Sep 12, 2023 12:33 pm And so it begins:

https://themessenger.com/news/its-offic ... dent-biden

He promised to put it to a House vote but apparently didn’t have the votes, so he just announced it anyway. This is purely political, the Republicans gave been looking at this for months and have found nothing. I don’t expect anything to change.

He promised?! Who? LOL

As if any of these asshats care about promises.

Carpet_pissr wrote: ↑Tue Sep 12, 2023 1:46 pm He promised?! Who? LOL

Didn't he also promise to read the Constitution on the House floor as soon as they started their new session?

Enjoy your circus GOP clowns.

They're going to pour a ton of taxpayer of resources into this theater.

Never pegged McCarthy for a supporter of public funding of the arts.

...and we've entered a phase in which every President will have impeachment hearings, justifiable or not. Is it a slippery slope that I can foresee a time where, if they had enough control in congress, any political rivals would simply be voted out until they got one that they wanted? Presidents, obstructive members of Congress, Justices?

I trust the Democrats will not engage in frivolous impeachments.

Alefroth wrote: ↑Tue Sep 12, 2023 3:32 pm I trust the Democrats will not engage in frivolous impeachments.

This.

There are few adults left in the room, but I believe most of them are in leadership positions on the dem side of things. I can't imagine they'll impeach just because.

Now if Drumpf is back in office....

Yeah, that came across less one-sided than I intended. I was speaking mostly of Republicans.

Alefroth wrote: ↑Tue Sep 12, 2023 3:32 pm I trust the Democrats will not engage in frivolous impeachments.

Which is why they will continue to lose ground. As long as the rules allow this it will be an effective, if disgusting, tactic.

El Guapo wrote: ↑Tue Sep 12, 2023 1:05 pm Part of the steady erosion of U.S. politics, though probably a small part. Trumpists sell a vision of the world in which everyone is corrupt, so that corruption just becomes another partisan issue where it's essentially ok to be corrupt as long as you're also owning the libs. The core advantage becomes that they can tell low-information right-leaning voters that Trump's crimes are no big deal because Biden was also impeached.

And this is where the GOP finds itself sliding into a natural alliance with Putin and other authoritarians.

Putin and his ilk rule through open corruption on the foundational claim that "all politics is rigged, so what you really need is a ruthless Strongman who's on *your* side."

The GOP has slithered towards that same argument by claiming that "[regulatory] government is the problem" for the past 40 years, but now they're nearly on board with the version above. You know that people like Tucker and Matt Gaetz are already fully there.

“Eight months of abject failure” used to describe prior Republican House probe:

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/202 ... ure-report

The bad part though is that 62% of Americans believe Biden was involved in Hunter’s dealings and 42% believe the president did nothing illegal. This isn’t going to help those numbers.

Well. Maybe this means the Freedom Caucus will allow a continuing resolution now. McCarthy probably figures that a dead-end impeachment inquiry is less likely to blow up in their faces than a shutdown would do.

Rep. Buck is in the Freedom Caucus and strongly opposes impeachment. He's also on the judiciary committee, so if McCarthy goes through there for impeachment, he can only lose one other vote.

LawBeefaroni wrote: ↑Tue Sep 12, 2023 2:53 pm
Never pegged McCarthy for a supporter of public funding of the arts.

It’s terrible because it’s like a South American banana republic where when one party gets controll off the house it keeps impeaching the president.

We saw this in Wisconsin where 58% of the populace elected a Supreme Court state justice and now republicans in the Wisconsin house are going to impeach her because she won.

Or worse demands their resignation. I hear some Maga/Q Anon types saying the house republicans should refuse to fund the government/military until Biden and Harris resign so McCarthy can be president; appoint Trump as his VP and then resign in favour of him - this reinstalling trump as the forever president.

Carpet_pissr wrote: ↑Tue Sep 12, 2023 1:14 pm Re: El Guapo’s post (because replying/quoting on mobile with this forum software/my tiny phone is awful):

This is absolutely true in terms of the messaging being broadcast to the right:
social experiment: if you have access to a right-winger (MAGAT, better, but both should work), bring up how corrupt Trump and his admin were.

Guaranteed response saying Biden is just as bad, if not worse. It’s been drilled into their brains.

And if you DON’T have access to your own personal right winger, I hate you, you suck.

Yep, I agree. One of my Dad's sisters is a hardcore right-winger and trying to discuss things like this is like trying to talk to an ostrich with their head in the sand. And I think we brought up that very same topic with them one time and oof, we got much of the same response, and it was shocking just how casual they were about it. We no longer try talking to them.

And they feel exactly the same way about talking to us.

Both sides firmly believe that they are in the right, and that the other side is willfully terrible. That is not an easy situation to get out of, and there are so, so many ways it can become far worse

Blackhawk wrote: ↑Wed Sep 13, 2023 12:50 am And they feel exactly the same way about talking to us.

Both sides firmly believe that they are in the right, and that the other side is willfully terrible. That is not an easy situation to get out of, and there are so, so many ways it can become far worse

But in this specific example, only one side believes that the entire system is so corrupt, that obvious corruption on their side is not a big deal.

In fact, that may be helpful to those of us who still occasionally try to talk sense into right wing acquaintances: calling out the MAGA grift is not The Way, they will just shrug and say ‘so what, all politicians do it.’ Must use a different approach.

Blackhawk wrote: ↑Wed Sep 13, 2023 12:50 am so, so many ways it can become far worse

(Narrator: It did.)

have access to your own personal right winger

I had one until I wished it into a cornfield.

Blackhawk wrote: ↑Wed Sep 13, 2023 12:50 am And they feel exactly the same way about talking to us.

Both sides firmly believe that they are in the right, and that the other side is willfully terrible. That is not an easy situation to get out of, and there are so, so many ways it can become far worse

Indeed. And there is no practical example of a rift like this ending peacefully. I was hanging this weekend with a Brit who lives in the UK but works almost exclusively with Americans. I saw her up in Boston this weekend. I had an hours long conversation about the issues she is seeing and her extreme worry about what is happening here.

It is obvious to outsiders that we are hurtling into something bad. She was telling us how bad it is getting in the UK too -- check out their concrete crisis right now to get a sense of it -- and it was not comforting to her a Brit telling me she has an escape plan to Spain or Portugal right now. It feels like we're on the edge of something big here. Maybe nothing happens but this has to be some echo of what it felt like in the 30s.

I am for the first time considering retiring elsewhere because Canada is too close to the US and is likely to experience significant fall out during the continued descent.

Worse, possibly, your brand of crazy is starting to infect the right wing people up here. Trans issues, for example. I never in my life expected to hear a significant number of Canadians insist on taking away someone's human rights. But here we are.

So yes, it is terrifying to outsiders.

There is nowhere safe if the USA falls.

Actually, McCarthy CANNOT initiate an impeachment by himself. This was a rule started in the Trump administration. (really!)

Zarathud wrote: ↑Wed Sep 13, 2023 7:51 am There is nowhere safe if the USA falls.

Lol. That's ridiculous even by American standards. And yes, I am aware of America's place in the world economy.

First, I meant their right wing authoritarianism, not economically. Second, my only real concern after moving and securing a piece of property and a roof, is food. I can live without avocados. I can live on potato or cabbage soup if necessary.

You don't think you could go back to Germany and be alright?

GreenGoo wrote: ↑Wed Sep 13, 2023 9:11 am

Zarathud wrote: ↑Wed Sep 13, 2023 7:51 am There is nowhere safe if the USA falls.

Lol. That's ridiculous even by American standards. And yes, I am aware of America's place in the world economy.

First, I meant their right wing authoritarianism, not economically. Second, my only real concern after moving and securing a piece of property and a roof, is food. I can live without avocados. I can live on potato or cabbage soup if necessary.

You don't think you could go back to Germany and be alright?

I think the point is that if America (with its overwhelming cultural, economic, and political weight) falls to Authoritarianism, everywhere else will too.

Nearly every country in Europe has a far-right party waiting in the wings, and some of them already hold significant positions in government. If the USA falls, all of those sinister forces will be turbocharged by media, money, political support, corrupt dealings, etc.

Even Switzerland won't get to ride it out this time.