Octopus Overlords

My kids have their PCs in their bedroom, connected via 2.4 GHz wireless. The router (a good, high-quality model) is in the living room. The physical distance is probably only 30 feet, but there is a thick, heavy plaster and/or brick wall in between us that has a strong negative impact on the signal. They're stuck with slow downloads, inconsistent latency (lag spikes) and occasional dropped connections.

I've looked at powerline adapters, and everything I've seen suggests that while they'd be more consistent, they'd also probably be slower, especially given my antiquated wiring (plus they apparently take up a ton of outlet space and don't work on extension cords - that's a deal breaker, as we only have a couple of outlets available in there.)

The modem/router can't be moved closer. The physical route from the modem to the bedroom along the walls is probably 60+ feet, so running physical wires probably wouldn't be practical.

What are some options for improving their connection speeds without having to pay a contractor to rebuild the house to do it?

I was able to survive for 10+ years with a powerline adapter and I still use it now sometimes. But you're right, needing a dedicated wall outlet is a pain (no power strips).

Have you looked into something like this?

TP-Link Range Extender

That's an older model, but maybe someone else can suggest something better? It does require a plug, but the idea would be that you'd slap it somewhere between the router and their PCs (like a hallway) and it would help bounce/boost the signal to them.

I will look at that option. I do wish I knew how the signal was getting in there - bouncing between walls around the corner? Going through the window, outside, and into their window? Going straight through the wall? That would affect if one of those might help.

I'm honest just considering getting a massive length of ethernet cable, running it from my modem, along the bottom edge of the wall all the way to the corner, around the corner, then doing a butcher's job of drilling a hole in the wall and pushing the damned thing through, maybe with a switch or cheaper router on the outer side.

We have a number of extenders throughout the house (old house with thick walls). My ISP actually gave them to us (wanna guess who my ISP is?) after the app to check the home wifi suggested that we had spots with poor reception. While they need an outlet, they're corded and just take up the one slot leaving the other available. It might be worth checking with your ISP to see if they'll comp you an extender like that.

I'm honest just considering getting a massive length of ethernet cable, running it from my modem, along the bottom edge of the wall all the way to the corner, around the corner, then doing a butcher's job of drilling a hole in the wall and pushing the damned thing through, maybe with a switch or cheaper router on the outer side.

That's what I ended up doing ~17 years ago when I was living in a townhouse and couldn't get a reliable signal from my basement to where the router was on the 2nd floor. My buddy came over and we were able to snake CAT5 cable through the HVAC ductwork (somehow) and I had a hardline connection.

And about 3 hours after he left, my wife's water broke and less than 24 hours later I was a dad....which is why I'll never forget that day.

Smoove_B wrote: ↑Wed Apr 26, 2023 1:43 pm

I'm honest just considering getting a massive length of ethernet cable, running it from my modem, along the bottom edge of the wall all the way to the corner, around the corner, then doing a butcher's job of drilling a hole in the wall and pushing the damned thing through, maybe with a switch or cheaper router on the outer side.

That's what I ended up doing ~17 years ago when I was living in a townhouse and couldn't get a reliable signal from my basement to where the router was on the 2nd floor. My buddy came over and we were able to snake CAT5 cable through the HVAC ductwork (somehow) and I had a hardline connection.

And about 3 hours after he left, my wife's water broke and less than 24 hours later I was a dad....which is why I'll never forget that day.

That HVAC duct would actually work - ours were added on at some point in the past (we basically have metal Gordon Freeman ducts across our entire house, just painted to match the walls.) But I have zero idea how I'd ever pull that off. I mean, I guess I could use a remote control car with a string tied to it if I had a way to actually see where it was going.

Ours was a vertical challenge and my buddy used some kind of wire snake to push some string through the main HVAC trunk and I just had to grab it. After that it was just a matter of tying the CAT5 to the string at his end and me pulling it though. For a horizontal run...I'd probably do something similar and try to "leapfrog" string to various registers using something like a metal measuring tape (assuming it was long enough) by extending it out with the string taped to the edge. I'm sure there are better ways that don't involve a big expense.

I may have a spare wifi mesh set (can't remember if it's 2 or 3 nodes). I'll have to dig in the closet to see if I still have it, but if I do, you are welcome to it. I had to replace it because it wasn't compatible with my work VPN.

I've used a TP-Link extender for a number of years now - I think I'm on my 2nd or 3rd one. It does need to be rebooted periodically, I just unplug it for a few seconds and plug it back in and let it reconnect. The modem and the router are on the opposite end of the house from my office, and the wi-fi signal is too weak for me to work reliably. There's also a TV with a Roku box in that part of the house, that also doesn't work very well with the "original" wi-fi, but it's also been disconnecting from the extender more often in the last few weeks, not sure why (trying it on the 2.4G channel now to see if it would be more stable than 5G).

coopasonic wrote: ↑Wed Apr 26, 2023 2:09 pm I may have a spare wifi mesh set (can't remember if it's 2 or 3 nodes). I'll have to dig in the closet to see if I still have it, but if I do, you are welcome to it. I had to replace it because it wasn't compatible with my work VPN.

I looked at those, and they were obscenely expensive. They aren't something I would want people just giving me if I could find a more practical way around it.

At this point, I'm actually considering trying to run the wire. It would give considerably better results. It would be a huge hassle, and I'm not sure how to even go about getting a serviceable hole in the wall with the tools I have, let alone knowing how to avoid any wiring already inside the wall (everything electrical in the house seems to be along the floorboard, so I'd probably be OK if I went higher than that.) But the result would be much better than any other option (and probably cost less - assuming I don't drill into an EPS conduit or something.)

Here's the basic layout of the house (approximate - the proportions are about right, but it isn't measured, and ignore the built-in dimension markings.) The circle is the modem/route and the wall it the wiring comes in through from outside. The two triangles are where the two bedroom PCs are.

If there's an outlet in the hallway close to the bedroom door, that's where I would plug in a wifi extender.

There isn't. There is nothing at all in the hallway.

Blackhawk wrote: ↑Wed Apr 26, 2023 2:24 pm At this point, I'm actually considering trying to run the wire. It would give considerably better results. It would be a huge hassle, and I'm not sure how to even go about getting a serviceable hole in the wall with the tools I have, let alone knowing how to avoid any wiring already inside the wall (everything electrical in the house seems to be along the floorboard, so I'd probably be OK if I went higher than that.) But the result would be much better than any other option (and probably cost less - assuming I don't drill into an EPS conduit or something.)

If you'd prefer to avoid running ethernet cable through your walls, an easier method to hide away your ethernet cables could be to run cable raceways along your baseboards and/or D Line cable covers around doors. It would add additional cost, but it may be a whole lot simpler and more convenient than running ethernet cables through walls if you lack sufficient tools to do so.

Mine drops from the room its in way down. I just put up with it. I can see where you cant . Funny I can pick up my neighbors wifi's when I use a scanner...like 5 or 6...and Im only close to one so how I pick up so many is weird. I mean they are across the road or up the hill lol. Wish mine was that good.

Also have you got your router on the higher ghz setting? Its stronger not only more speed. It will go through more wall.

Lastly if you're wanting to look at the signal strength and test it in different locations and rooms try Wifi Analyzer.

If you're neighbor has more signal and no security theres your answer... Hahha Im kidding!

Blackhawk wrote: ↑Wed Apr 26, 2023 2:35 pm There isn't. There is nothing at all in the hallway.

I guess in theory you could just use an extension cord (not a power strip, just a single-plug cord), plug it into the nearest outlet, and then just plop the wifi extender on the floor or tape it to the wall...

Or try the outlets that do exist, it's not an exact science - you never know how the signal is bouncing and it might work where you don't expect it to.

Daehawk wrote: ↑Wed Apr 26, 2023 2:58 pm Also have you got your router on the higher ghz setting? Its stronger not only more speed. It will go through more wall.

Do you mean 5GHz? My router has two 2.4GHz and one 5GHz bands. You're wrong on one count, though - 5GHz is typically faster and less congested, but it has less range and doesn't pass through walls nearly as well as 2.4GHz. With my walls, 5GHz is almost useless outside of the living room where the router is.

Daehawk wrote: ↑Wed Apr 26, 2023 2:58 pm Lastly if you're wanting to look at the signal strength and test it in different locations and rooms try Wifi Analyzer.

If that's the app I think it is, it's another one of those apps that needs to die in a fire. It used to be good, but it's gotten extremely questionable. It now likes to feed fullscreen ads that are designed to trick you into false Android system updates. I switched to WiFiman.

Part of the problem I'm starting to have is throwing lots of money at solutions that are likely to offer only marginal benefits.

Powerline adds stability and improves latency (usually - depending on wire quality), but decreases speed.

Mesh is good, but it is spending a great deal of money to extend the signal - he'd get a better signal, yes, but it would still be a wifi signal, and for the money and space (including outlets) to set it up, I'm not sure it's worth the gains.

Digging into some research, I'm not sure that a repeater/extender/booster is a good solution - they provide wider coverage (great for browsing in the bedroom where you couldn't before), but they add another step in the route, which tends to slow the signal down and adds considerable latency (terrible for gaming, which is most of what one of them does with his connection.)

But then again, I traced the route I'd be following/

Anonymous Bosch wrote: ↑Wed Apr 26, 2023 2:52 pm If you'd prefer to avoid running ethernet cable through your walls, an easier method to hide away your ethernet cables could be to run cable raceways along your baseboards and/or D Line cable covers around doors. It would add additional cost, but it may be a whole lot simpler and more convenient than running ethernet cables through walls if you lack sufficient tools to do so.

They were never going through the walls except where they need to get from the living room (L-shaped room in the plan above) to the bedroom, ie, I need to dig a tunnel. The external walls are, as far as we can tell, a layer of plaster over a layer of wood directly against eight inches of solid brick. There is no hollow in our external walls (they were all built in the 19th century.)

The covers are actually not a terrible idea (I toyed with running the physical line around, rather than through the walls), but the distance would increase considerably, and those raceways wouldn't really work with my walls. The baseboards themselves used to have outlets in them. At some point those were disconnected and new outlets were strung in front of all of the baseboards. Given the hassles of running lines through century-old plaster walls, whoever installed them just ran lengths of conduit all the way around the baseboards (and no, I can't get the conduits open - they're sealed and have been painted over who knows how many times.) Between two sets out outlets and the conduit, the baseboard surface is pretty well packed. And all of those windows? Baseboard to about a foot from the ceiling. I'd either have to jump in and out of the covers all over the place, or run them all of the way around each window (probably 15' around each, so another 45' of cable.)

My best bet for that (if I take the wired approach) is still to run the cable in the corner between the baseboard and the carpet. It'll be visible, but is really the only practical answer to moving it around the house. The one complication was when I just traced the route an realized that I'd made a mistake in the plan. There is actually a closet along the entire wall between the bedroom and the living room. That means that I'd have to empty the closet, drill a hole and run the line into the closet, then drill a hole on the opposite side to run it into the bedroom.

Yay.

Cat5 cable 100%.

Best pipe, most reliable, and cheapest. Ugly? Yes. Who cares when ping is king?

I'm having a surprisingly difficult time finding a drill bit that is long enough (12", probably), wide enough, and doesn't require a hammer drill. Which I don't have (and please don't say rent - I'm still in the middle of nowhere.)

LawBeefaroni wrote: ↑Wed Apr 26, 2023 4:14 pm Cat5 cable 100%.

Best pipe, most reliable, and cheapest. Ugly? Yes. Who cares when ping is king?

Probably 6 or shielded 6a. If I'm going to go to the hassle, I'd might as well get the more future-proof option (and it isn't that much more.)

Blackhawk wrote: ↑Wed Apr 26, 2023 5:31 pm I'm having a surprisingly difficult time finding a drill bit that is long enough (12", probably), wide enough, and doesn't require a hammer drill. Which I don't have (and please don't say rent - I'm still in the middle of nowhere.)

Drill 6' on one side of the wall. Then get a hanger, straighten it and poke it through the drilled hole until you hit the wall on the other side, ideally hard enough that it pokes through or makes a blemish you can see. Then use the 6" bit to drill at that point, hopefully connecting with the 6" tunnel on the other side.

Smoove_B wrote: ↑Wed Apr 26, 2023 6:24 pm

Blackhawk wrote: ↑Wed Apr 26, 2023 5:31 pm I'm having a surprisingly difficult time finding a drill bit that is long enough (12", probably), wide enough, and doesn't require a hammer drill. Which I don't have (and please don't say rent - I'm still in the middle of nowhere.)

Drill 6' on one side of the wall. Then get a hanger, straighten it and poke it through the drilled hole until you hit the wall on the other side, ideally hard enough that it pokes through or makes a blemish you can see. Then use the 6" bit to drill at that point, hopefully connecting with the 6" tunnel on the other side.

I would need one hell of a hanger to poke through wooden lathe and plaster!

My walls are something like this:



With 130 years of curing behind it.

I was figuring there would be enough of a gap in the lathing + ancient plaster on the inside that it just might work...

It's a possibility, if I sharpened the clothes hanger, but based on my experience with our walls, it would likely just bend (our plaster can bend nails.) Maybe if I was able to see in and find a gap, then twist it back and forth. Pushing it through, I'm afraid, would leave a huge divet on the other side.

If I actually had the tools, I'd drill a larger hole (like 1"), put in an appropriate length of 1" PVC pipe to make a neat, flush tube through the wall, and put 'grommet' caps on both ends.

Sounds like you really need to relocate the router to the middle of the house. And there's nothing that says you cannot use another router on top of whatever your ISP gave you.

You can leave your modem where it is, run an ethernet cable. Use the cable runner along the bottom of wall, follow the door frame up to go around it. I'd install a small bookshelf or floating shelf and such in that corner next to the entry way, and put the router there.

Still wont get a signal through that wall though.

Unless that wall has metal shielding in it it should work. One can always get a "test unit" from Amazon and return it if it won't.

If that really won't work, drilling a hole through the door frame should be a lot easier than through the wall, if it's that tough.

Blackhawk wrote: ↑Wed Apr 26, 2023 4:06 pm Powerline adds stability and improves latency (usually - depending on wire quality), but decreases speed.

they also throw out tons of spurious RF noise - as an amateur radio operator, i hates em.

and the big drawback to wifi bridges is they will halve your bandwidth.

i did run 60' of CAT5 in a house along the corners of the wall/floor, wall/doors and wall/ceiling once. it was ... kinda fun. what wasn't fun was running 120' at my last work place (had to wire up an internet-enabled lab instrument on its own non-wireless quarantine network) with very high ceilings - that was utterly exhausting.

Kasey Chang wrote: ↑Fri Apr 28, 2023 5:39 pm Unless that wall has metal shielding in it it should work. One can always get a "test unit" from Amazon and return it if it won't.

If that really won't work, drilling a hole through the door frame should be a lot easier than through the wall, if it's that tough.

I was hoping that one of the various plug-and-play options out there was enough to solve it simply, but it isn't. As such, it's now a question of cost + effort vs impact. I could run the cord just as far in order to put the router in the corner, which might or might not give them a slight performance boost - maybe 30%, maybe a little more, and maybe more stability. But at that point, simply drilling the hole through the wall will improve their performance by ~1500%.

I just need to figure out how.

Isgrimnur wrote: ↑Fri Apr 28, 2023 8:31 pm How to Safely Drill in Old Plaster Walls

I'd already seen that one (See? I really do do my own research.) #1 and 2 aren't really possible, and the rest is for making a small hole for a screw - not digging a much larger tunnel all the way through. I keep having problems finding how-tos for this that explain functional methods as opposed to 'best' methods aimed at people with fully stocked workshops (apparently the 'best' way to do it involves special drill bits and a hammer drill, which I don't have, not to mention a knowledge of where the studs are in the walls, which I can't get*. And no, nobody around here rents them.)

*I have tried every trick in the book over the years, including multiple types of stud finders. Most don't register anything through the plaster. Those strong enough to register anything register that every wall consists entirely of stud (I set it up for you...) And since the outlets aren't actually in the wall, and since the walls were built prior to modern building standards that specify distance between studs - well, it isn't happening.

StudPoP?

Door frame it is, then.

Blackhawk wrote: ↑Fri Apr 28, 2023 8:38 pm *I have tried every trick in the book over the years, including multiple types of stud finders. Most don't register anything through the plaster. Those strong enough to register anything register that every wall consists entirely of stud (I set it up for you...) And since the outlets aren't actually in the wall, and since the walls were built prior to modern building standards that specify distance between studs - well, it isn't happening.

The magnet method can often be a more useful technique for locating studs in plaster walls. So if you've not tried this, here's a video that clearly explains the process and demonstrates how it works:



BTW, if you own any old spinner hard drives, they typically provide remarkably powerful rare earth neodymium magnets. So I'd suggest disassembling an old spinner hard drive to harvest the magnets contained therein. When attached to a piece of string, you'll then have a very clear visual aid you can use as shown in the video.

I have tried variations on the magnet trick (and I have plenty of rare earth magnets.)

So, the last bits I need to run the line should be in later today. Once I get the line in there, it'll go directly to Caiden's PC (a desktop), but I'd like to see about adding a wireless connection within the room to give a better connection for Ian (on a laptop.) What's the best way to do that? If it was two PCs getting hard wires, I'd add a simple network switch inside the room. Do I just add a full router and set up a different wireless network on it?

Blackhawk wrote: ↑Mon May 15, 2023 10:42 am So, the last bits I need to run the line should be in later today. Once I get the line in there, it'll go directly to Caiden's PC (a desktop), but I'd like to see about adding a wireless connection within the room to give a better connection for Ian (on a laptop.) What's the best way to do that? If it was two PCs getting hard wires, I'd add a simple network switch inside the room. Do I just add a full router and set up a different wireless network on it?

A 5 Port Ethernet Switch + a USB C to Ethernet Adapter for the laptop should do the trick for minimal outlay. Because you might as well allow both systems to enjoy the superior performance and reliability of the wired connection now it's there.

Anonymous Bosch wrote: ↑Mon May 15, 2023 11:11 am

Blackhawk wrote: ↑Mon May 15, 2023 10:42 am So, the last bits I need to run the line should be in later today. Once I get the line in there, it'll go directly to Caiden's PC (a desktop), but I'd like to see about adding a wireless connection within the room to give a better connection for Ian (on a laptop.) What's the best way to do that? If it was two PCs getting hard wires, I'd add a simple network switch inside the room. Do I just add a full router and set up a different wireless network on it?

A 5 Port Ethernet Switch + a USB C to Ethernet Adapter for the laptop should do the trick for minimal outlay. Because you might as well allow both systems to enjoy the superior performance and reliability of the wired connection now it's there.

The laptop already has an ethernet port, a hard wire won't work due to where/how it's used (the wire would be laying right across the middle of the room.) That's why I was asking about adding wireless access to the end of the line.

Add another router and put it in bridge mode, so you don't have to create a 2nd wireless network.

Blackhawk wrote: ↑Mon May 15, 2023 11:20 am a hard wire won't work due to where/how it's used (the wire would be laying right across the middle of the room.) That's why I was asking about adding wireless access to the end of the line.

As I said, run the wire EXTRA LONG, along the wall, around the door frame, come back down, and it'll reach the other PC.