dbt1949 wrote: ↑Fri May 12, 2023 4:56 pm
You know, I don't think I ever discussed politics with my parents.
My dad had strong opinions and so did I, when I got old enough to form some, but I was so naive that he demolished me every time. He didn't change my mind, but he made me stop arguing when he backed me into supporting Castro. The old man loved to argue and I was an unworthy teenage opponent.
I often wonder what he'd make of today's political landscape. I like to think we'd have some common ground. I was glad that he didn't live to see Abu Ghraib because that violated everything he believed about America as a WW2 vet. But he did become reactionary in his last few years, as we so often do.
Politics weren't part of my mom's world at all. She voted as she was told and never talked about it.
At what age. My father, in his 80s, is not so politically shrewd any more but boy he loves to talk about ways he thinks are wrong and ignore everything anyone says, repeating himself over and over and over and over, like a certain political party.
I suppose it's another thing I will need to guard against becoming.
dbt1949 wrote: ↑Fri May 12, 2023 4:56 pm
You know, I don't think I ever discussed politics with my parents.
My dad had strong opinions and so did I, when I got old enough to form some, but I was so naive that he demolished me every time. He didn't change my mind, but he made me stop arguing when he backed me into supporting Castro. The old man loved to argue and I was an unworthy teenage opponent.
I often wonder what he'd make of today's political landscape. I like to think we'd have some common ground. I was glad that he didn't live to see Abu Ghraib because that violated everything he believed about America as a WW2 vet. But he did become reactionary in his last few years, as we so often do.
Politics weren't part of my mom's world at all. She voted as she was told and never talked about it.
At what age. My father, in his 80s, is not so politically shrewd any more but boy he loves to talk about ways he thinks are wrong and ignore everything anyone says, repeating himself over and over and over and over, like a certain political party.
I suppose it's another thing I will need to guard against becoming.
My dad died in his mid-60s. He had been in declining health for years and grew increasingly embittered as his world shrank and he lost agency. He was never liberal, but had been more open-minded when he was still the captain of his own life. If he'd lived long enough to see the country splinter the way it has...I really don't know which side he'd have landed on. He would not have fallen for trump, I'm pretty sure.
I don't think I'll end up like that because I'm getting woker with age.
Re: Are you woke?
Posted: Sat May 13, 2023 11:42 am
by Jaymann
I don't know who decides thee things, but why isn't it the grammatically correct: Are you Awake?
Re: Are you woke?
Posted: Sat May 13, 2023 11:50 am
by coopasonic
Jaymann wrote: ↑Sat May 13, 2023 11:42 am
I don't know who decides thee things, but why isn't it the grammatically correct: Are you Awake?
Because that already has a common meaning and use and making it mean something else would be confusing?
Re: Are you woke?
Posted: Sat May 13, 2023 1:30 pm
by Jaymann
I would submit that "woke" already has a common meaning: He woke to the sound of his alarm. To say "he is woke" sounds illiterate af.
Re: Are you woke?
Posted: Sat May 13, 2023 1:33 pm
by stessier
Jaymann wrote: ↑Sat May 13, 2023 1:30 pm
I would submit that "woke" already has a common meaning: He woke to the sound of his alarm. To say "he is woke" sounds illiterate af.
That argument rubs me the wrong way. That's so cool. They're hot. That's rad. It's slang - you're old.
Re: Are you woke?
Posted: Sat May 13, 2023 2:44 pm
by hitbyambulance
Jaymann wrote: ↑Sat May 13, 2023 1:30 pm
I would submit that "woke" already has a common meaning: He woke to the sound of his alarm. To say "he is woke" sounds illiterate af.
The first thing that happened to “woke” was that it was borrowed from Black slang. It first appeared in neither a BuzzFeed article nor a rap but a jolly piece on Black vernacular expressions in 1962 in this newspaper called “If You’re Woke, You Dig It.” Many will be surprised that “salty,” as in “irritable,” another Black expression that white people have taken on of late, also occurs in this piece.
By the time something hits the page, we can be sure it had been around long before, and it’s a good guess that Black people had been using “woke” for at least a couple of decades before this. Lead Belly gives us a look at its likely origins when he urges people to “stay woke” in an afterpiece remark on a 1938 recording. He is referring to Black people being alert to actual physical danger; it would have been a natural evolution to start using “stay woke” to refer to more, as we say, systemic matters.
It was after 2010 that “woke” jumped the fence into mainstream parlance. Erykah Badu’s “Master Teacher” seems to have at least planted a seed, and then those “stay woke” salutes on Twitter in 2012 were in the wake of the Trayvon Martin killing, upon which the expression was truly set in stone.
There are those who will see the story of “woke,” therefore, as one of cultural appropriation. But that’s a narrow take. To refer to its uptake by whites as a kind of theft is one way to see it. But another way is to marvel at how bizarre it would have been as recently as the 1980s for white progressives to warmly embrace a term from the Black street as a sign of empathy with Black America’s problems — and as for the theft, Black English is mighty enough that legions of its slang words and expressions stay quite unappropriated, thank you very much. Clearly we can spare one or two now and then? In the meantime, while racism’s persistence is clear, people who like and at least halfway understand one another will talk like one another.
The browning of American culture since the 1990s — chronicled in Leon Wynter’s grievously underconsulted book “American Skin: Pop Culture, Big Business and the End of White America” — has meant not just that a lot of white kids like them some Jay-Z but also that a generation of white kids sound a little Blacker in casual speech than their parents did. To be someone who teaches college now after having gone to college with those parents is to see and hear this quite clearly. “Stay woke” on white people’s T-shirts is a sign of coming together. Symbolic? Sure, but last time I checked, symbols matter.
Re: Are you woke?
Posted: Sat May 13, 2023 2:45 pm
by Alefroth
Jaymann wrote: ↑Sat May 13, 2023 1:30 pm
I would submit that "woke" already has a common meaning: He woke to the sound of his alarm. To say "he is woke" sounds illiterate af.
I hope you never come across swole.
Re: Are you woke?
Posted: Sat May 13, 2023 3:33 pm
by Rumpy
Oh man, the first time I heard that, just a few weeks ago, it left me feeling like I had whiplash from wondering what the heck it meant. I've been seeing it used in the media in headlines as if it were commonplace, and it makes me feel old. My preference would be to not use slang in headlines.
Re: Are you woke?
Posted: Sat May 13, 2023 4:37 pm
by Jaymann
Rumpy wrote: ↑Sat May 13, 2023 3:33 pm
Oh man, the first time I heard that, just a few weeks ago, it left me feeling like I had whiplash from wondering what the heck it meant. I've been seeing it used in the media in headlines as if it were commonplace, and it makes me feel old. My preference would be to not use slang in headlines.
Re: Are you woke?
Posted: Sat May 13, 2023 8:44 pm
by Holman
If you're musing over the etymological difficulty of "woke" as "black dialect," take five minutes and read James Baldwin's essay "If Black English Isn't a Language, Then Tell Me, What Is?"
The last four or five short paragraphs are shattering.
Re: Are you woke?
Posted: Sun May 14, 2023 9:57 am
by Skinypupy
Holman wrote: ↑Sat May 13, 2023 8:44 pm
If you're musing over the etymological difficulty of "woke" as "black dialect," take five minutes and read James Baldwin's essay "If Black English Isn't a Language, Then Tell Me, What Is?"
The last four or five short paragraphs are shattering.
I hadn’t read that before. Thanks for posting it.
Came across this on Twitter this morning. Thought it was an apt summary.
“Woke" is Republican-speak for anyone who gives a damn about other human beings or the planet.
It is a dog-whistle slur against expressions of humanity that spread resources, opportunity, power, and a voice to more people.
Re: Are you woke?
Posted: Sun May 14, 2023 7:01 pm
by Rumpy
Ideally, it shouldn't be a politically aligned statement. I guess that's where we're at now though.
Re: Are you woke?
Posted: Mon May 15, 2023 12:28 am
by Pyperkub
Rumpy wrote:Ideally, it shouldn't be a politically aligned statement. I guess that's where we're at now though.
It's essentially the war on civil rights still- discrimination and being a dick is the generally rallying cry of the anti-"woke" crowd. Hate and fear are necessary to keep the populace fighting amongst themselves.
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Re: Are you woke?
Posted: Mon May 15, 2023 9:26 am
by Unagi
Skinypupy wrote: ↑Sun May 14, 2023 9:57 am
Came across this on Twitter this morning. Thought it was an apt summary.
“Woke" is Republican-speak for anyone who gives a damn about other human beings or the planet.
It is a dog-whistle slur against expressions of humanity that spread resources, opportunity, power, and a voice to more people.
Yeah, that's about right.
Re: Are you woke?
Posted: Mon May 15, 2023 1:35 pm
by Apollo
I would define "Woke" differently. From an OP/ED by Bret Stephens in The New York Times:
What’s wrong with a movement that, on its narrowest terms, aims to make Americans more aware of racial injustices, past and present? Nothing. In cases like those of Eric Garner, George Floyd and Ahmaud Arbery, non-Black America has had a long-overdue education about the fact that Black lives can still be subject to the same casual cruelties of a century ago.
But, like many movements that overspill their initial causes of action, Wokeness now connotes much more than an effort to reform the police or denounce racial injustice when it occurs. It is, instead, an allegation that racism is a defining feature, not a flaw, of nearly every aspect of American life, from its inception to its present, in the books we read, the language we speak, the heroes we venerate, the roads we drive, the way we do business, the way we select for merit and so on.
And it is a prescription, not for genuine dialogue and reform, but for indoctrination and extirpation, based on a relentless form of race consciousness that defies the modern American creed of judging people by the content of their character, not the color of their skin.
It is starting to occur to me that many political movements nowadays, like the Civil RIghts or Anti-Abortion movements for two examples, have too much money, power, and influence to just go away. They simply morph their message with changing times and demand things that were beyond the pale in the past, like banning abortion even in cases of rape or incest and even when the health of the mother is at stake, or pressuring institutions like the Academy Awards into taking account factors that have nothing to do with the merits of a movie when deciding award winners. I could go on and on, but to pretend that complaints about "wokeness" only extend to the far-right, white supremacists, etc. just makes the Left look even more out of touch with the values of the average person in this country.
Re: Are you woke?
Posted: Mon May 15, 2023 3:11 pm
by Alefroth
So how would you define it?
Re: Are you woke?
Posted: Mon May 15, 2023 4:14 pm
by ImLawBoy
Bret Stephens wrote:
Wokeness . . . is, instead, an allegation that racism is a defining feature, not a flaw, of nearly every aspect of American life, from its inception to its present, in the books we read, the language we speak, the heroes we venerate, the roads we drive, the way we do business, the way we select for merit and so on.
I mean, yeah? Just because it can make folks uncomfortable and it kind of sucks that a lot of our "American Idealism" omitted a lot of bad stuff, that doesn't mean that racism didn't, in fact, lay the foundation for and doesn't continue to permeate a ton of aspects of American life.
Bret Stephens wrote:And it is a prescription, not for genuine dialogue and reform, but for indoctrination and extirpation, based on a relentless form of race consciousness that defies the modern American creed of judging people by the content of their character, not the color of their skin.
No, it's not a prescription for indoctrination and extirpation - at least, not if you're open minded about the reality of racism in America. If you're open to that reality, then you can have the dialogue and reform that Stephens seems to want while at the same time seeming to deny its need. (And major eyeroll to his attempt to cite MLK as a reason to ignore racism.)
Re: Are you woke?
Posted: Mon May 15, 2023 9:42 pm
by hepcat
Victoria Raverna wrote: ↑Wed Apr 26, 2023 9:05 pm
About diversity, what are your opinion about the black Cleopatra from the new Netflix documentary?
I supported black actress being casted as Little Mermaid. I'll also support black actress being casted as Cleopatra in a fictional historical movie, but I have problem with a black Cleopatra in a documentary.
The question of historical accuracy in her racial depiction aside, the show is kind of…ridiculous. I tried watching a bit of it, but when I quickly realized that they were going to be portraying her as Xena the Warrior Princess first, and a ruler lastly, I checked out. What is wrong with just having a strong female leader who is clever enough to stand toe to toe with everyone else? Does she have to also be shown hurling a Dodge Challenger at male opponents in a gladiatorial fight to the death too? Christ, enough already.
There is very little historical accuracy in this “historically accurate” docudrama, from what I can tell.
Victoria Raverna wrote: ↑Wed Apr 26, 2023 9:05 pm
About diversity, what are your opinion about the black Cleopatra from the new Netflix documentary?
I supported black actress being casted as Little Mermaid. I'll also support black actress being casted as Cleopatra in a fictional historical movie, but I have problem with a black Cleopatra in a documentary.
The question of historical accuracy in her racial depiction aside, the show is kind of…ridiculous. I tried watching a bit of it, but when I quickly realized that they were going to be portraying her as Xena the Warrior Princess first...
That makes me want to watch it for the mockery value. 11% on Rotten Tomatoes be damned.
Bret Stephens wrote:
Wokeness . . . is, instead, an allegation that racism is a defining feature, not a flaw, of nearly every aspect of American life, from its inception to its present, in the books we read, the language we speak, the heroes we venerate, the roads we drive, the way we do business, the way we select for merit and so on.
I mean, yeah? Just because it can make folks uncomfortable and it kind of sucks that a lot of our "American Idealism" omitted a lot of bad stuff, that doesn't mean that racism didn't, in fact, lay the foundation for and doesn't continue to permeate a ton of aspects of American life.
Except that a lot of our “American Idealism” rested on a foundation that consisted of many other things besides racism. Rugged individualism. Liberty from tyranny. Freedom of expression. Hutzpah (importing that one, but I think it counts) . . .
I think this goes to the point Apollo was trying to make: You don’t have to throw out the baby with the bath water. It’s entirely consistent to agree that the story we’ve told ourselves about who we are and what our country is about “omitted a lot of bad stuff” and this is something sorely in need of correction. We should be aware that racism played (and continues to play) a terribly negative role in American life, and we can be committed to working against that without adopting the view that racism is, in fact, THE cornerstone of America.
Re: Are you woke?
Posted: Tue May 16, 2023 11:47 am
by GreenGoo
Wait. Woke is only associated with racism? So woke doesn't concern itself with any other forms of discrimination?
Because "woke" today is almost entirely about lgbtq2s+ rights. Bud Light isn't a pariah amongst the anti-woke because of it's anti-racism.
Bret Stephens wrote:
Wokeness . . . is, instead, an allegation that racism is a defining feature, not a flaw, of nearly every aspect of American life, from its inception to its present, in the books we read, the language we speak, the heroes we venerate, the roads we drive, the way we do business, the way we select for merit and so on.
I mean, yeah? Just because it can make folks uncomfortable and it kind of sucks that a lot of our "American Idealism" omitted a lot of bad stuff, that doesn't mean that racism didn't, in fact, lay the foundation for and doesn't continue to permeate a ton of aspects of American life.
Except that a lot of our “American Idealism” rested on a foundation that consisted of many other things besides racism. Rugged individualism. Liberty from tyranny. Freedom of expression. Hutzpah (importing that one, but I think it counts) . . .
I think this goes to the point Apollo was trying to make: You don’t have to throw out the baby with the bath water. It’s entirely consistent to agree that the story we’ve told ourselves about who we are and what our country is about “omitted a lot of bad stuff” and this is something sorely in need of correction. We should be aware that racism played (and continues to play) a terribly negative role in American life, and we can be committed to working against that without adopting the view that racism is, in fact, THE cornerstone of America.
I don't think most of us who are professing to be woke in this thread are throwing out the baby with the bathwater. Sure, there are some folks in society who might think that way, but it's a straw man to say that being woke means that you hate America and that it has no good stuff in its history. Stephens in those quotes is making that straw man argument.
But this goes back to how effective the right has been at demonizing the term "woke" and making it out to be some horrible extremism instead of people being aware of history and how it impacts today.
GreenGoo wrote: ↑Tue May 16, 2023 11:47 am
Wait. Woke is only associated with racism? So woke doesn't concern itself with any other forms of discrimination?
Because "woke" today is almost entirely about lgbtq2s+ rights. Bud Light isn't a pariah amongst the anti-woke because of it's anti-racism.
I think woke started out in the context of racism, but has certainly expanded to cover anything the left likes.
Re: Are you woke?
Posted: Tue May 16, 2023 12:46 pm
by GreenGoo
Sure, I totally agree, but this quote defining wokism as solely about racism confused me.
Bret Stephens wrote:
Wokeness . . . is, instead, an allegation that racism is a defining feature, not a flaw, of nearly every aspect of American life, from its inception to its present, in the books we read, the language we speak, the heroes we venerate, the roads we drive, the way we do business, the way we select for merit and so on.
Re: Are you woke?
Posted: Tue May 16, 2023 12:53 pm
by hepcat
I think Stephens greatest problem is that he sees the condemnation of institutionalized racism that critical race theory and other so called "woke ideologies" as the end goal.
It's not.
The end goal is to make people aware of it so they can fix it. So that they can better themselves. A goal we should all aspire to in any civil discourse.
None of this is a gun intended to kill everyone who doesn't agree with the wielder (in spite of the cancel culture uprising that has always existed from the moment a townsman found a torch and a reason to be angry at their neighbor, and is a natural offshoot of any endeavor like this in a post social media aware world). It's a magnifying glass to help us find the problem spots so we can grow as human beings.
Re: Are you woke?
Posted: Tue May 16, 2023 1:29 pm
by Zarathud
The anti-woke WANT to be racist. They want their myths that America is great by definition, without question or nuance. They want to continue bad behavior and selfishness because it’s how they’re supposed to benefit and be entitled to their denied “American dream.”
No blacks, no Mexicans, no Jews, and no gays was a time when they think poor America thrived. Even though it was a temporary post-war situation, they want it back for economic reasons, at their best. Or because they’re racists and deplorable, at worst.
Re: Are you woke?
Posted: Tue May 16, 2023 1:31 pm
by Rumpy
GreenGoo wrote: ↑Tue May 16, 2023 11:47 am
Wait. Woke is only associated with racism? So woke doesn't concern itself with any other forms of discrimination?
The way I've understood it is that it refers to any form of injustices committed in the past that have come to light, and of wanting to account for them. An example would be the indigenous treatment and graves found in Residential schools in Canada, and of wanting to strike a better term with indigenous people overall, which has been a pretty big theme here.
In other words, it's like being blinded and seeing the light, and wanting to atone for past mistakes. Basically keeping an open mind and eyes open.
One thing I've been seeing a lot locally over the last 5-10 years, is more of an embracing of indigenous culture, and it's been quite fascinating. I've sat through multiple lectures on indigenous language and culture, over the last several years, and I can tell you that they love telling their story, their history, and they love that we're listening, and I've been personally told that they're very appreciative that others are wanting to learn, and that it's in turn creating a much better collaborative feeling. They feel that there's been a sea-change happening.
This is what I feel is part of that 'Woke' mentality. I really don't like the term itself because of its negative associations, but I feel I can identify with the general sentiment.
Unfortunately, I've read about groups that want to curtail all this enlightenment, even going so far as to reverse track, as if it's imposing on them.
Re: Are you woke?
Posted: Tue May 16, 2023 2:02 pm
by ImLawBoy
GreenGoo wrote: ↑Tue May 16, 2023 12:46 pm
Sure, I totally agree, but this quote defining wokism as solely about racism confused me.
Bret Stephens wrote:
Wokeness . . . is, instead, an allegation that racism is a defining feature, not a flaw, of nearly every aspect of American life, from its inception to its present, in the books we read, the language we speak, the heroes we venerate, the roads we drive, the way we do business, the way we select for merit and so on.
Well, it's Bret Stephens, so don't labor under the assumption that he actually knows what he's talking about.
Re: Are you woke?
Posted: Tue May 16, 2023 4:10 pm
by Pyperkub
Heh
Sent from my SM-S908U1 using Tapatalk
Re: Are you woke?
Posted: Tue May 16, 2023 5:01 pm
by Rumpy
Someone tell him he is scared of snakes.
Re: Are you woke?
Posted: Tue May 16, 2023 5:23 pm
by ImLawBoy
Rumpy wrote: ↑Tue May 16, 2023 5:01 pm
Someone tell him he is scared of snakes.
[Ranier Wolfcastle]That's the joke.[/Ranier Wolfcastle]
Re: Are you woke?
Posted: Tue May 16, 2023 7:24 pm
by Unagi
Rumpy wrote: ↑Tue May 16, 2023 5:01 pm
Someone tell him he is scared of snakes.
Wow.
Re: Are you woke?
Posted: Tue May 16, 2023 8:26 pm
by Rumpy
Wouldn't be the first time a joke zoomed right over my head...
Re: Are you woke?
Posted: Tue May 16, 2023 8:48 pm
by Unagi
Rumpy wrote: ↑Tue May 16, 2023 8:26 pm
Wouldn't be the first time a joke zoomed right over my head...
(I say this with great love and no ill will)
I mean, it was also filled with anti-Nazi propaganda and had a feisty woman who can outdrink men twice
-- You just had to realize it was a list of things already done in RotLA -- and was the entire crutch of the joke. I'm thinking you just didn't really bother with more than the last line.
Re: Are you woke?
Posted: Tue May 16, 2023 11:57 pm
by Rumpy
Nah, I just don't generally do all that well with humor. After I looked at it more closely, then yes, I realized they were already things in the movie. And I was like, Doh!
Thankfully Molson Coors is reacting with a little more courage than Anheuser-Busch and refusing to pander to bigots.
“People can take issue with our ads or our brands, but we won’t stand by as people personally attack our employees – especially given that these are company decisions, and are never made by one single person,” Adam Collins, Molson Coors’ chief communications and corporate affairs officer, told Newsweek on Tuesday. Which is precisely what the people at Bud Light should have said. Indeed, if Anheuser-Busch had reacted with a little more guts, then conservatives might not have felt so emboldened to start attacking executives at Molson Coors.
Re: Are you woke?
Posted: Thu May 18, 2023 12:33 pm
by Rumpy
Wow, I wonder how'd they'd react to European commercials, which are known to be far more provocative. Kind of amusing how a little thing such as this can bend people so out of shape. Third-world problem...
Can't be good for blood pressure either. People need to learn to live and to let go.
Re: Are you woke?
Posted: Thu May 18, 2023 12:48 pm
by YellowKing
Yeah I tell my parents that all the time - being angry and afraid about petty shit all the time is just driving you to an early grave. Stress takes a very real toll on the body, and you do have a good deal of control about how you react to things. My dad's upset about transgender high schoolers excelling in sports?? I mean really? He's 70 years old, WTF does he care about high school sports? You're shortening your life by getting upset over that?
Re: Are you woke?
Posted: Thu May 18, 2023 1:26 pm
by Sudy
They have a point about those kids who identify as chinchillas being given dust to bathe in in elementary school washrooms however.
Re: Are you woke?
Posted: Thu May 18, 2023 4:26 pm
by Rumpy
YellowKing wrote: ↑Thu May 18, 2023 12:48 pm
Yeah I tell my parents that all the time - being angry and afraid about petty shit all the time is just driving you to an early grave. Stress takes a very real toll on the body, and you do have a good deal of control about how you react to things. My dad's upset about transgender high schoolers excelling in sports?? I mean really? He's 70 years old, WTF does he care about high school sports? You're shortening your life by getting upset over that?
Yeah, it's as if everything is taken as a personal affront. What's wrong with just letting anyone live their lives the way they see fit? Nobody pee'd in their cheerios or shot their dogs, yet small things like this raise their hackles. Being progressive is allowing for the fact that some people have different dispositions and orientations. Some people can't seem to abide a changing world, cursing the clouds all the time. Some need to open their eyes and learn it's not about 'them' all the time.
I mean, it was also filled with anti-Nazi propaganda and had a feisty woman who can outdrink men twice