Are you woke?

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Skinypupy
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Re: Are you woke?

Post by Skinypupy »

RunningMn9 wrote: Mon Apr 24, 2023 9:02 pm Forgetting the label for a moment, I think that there comes a time when you become aware that your experience is really just a collection of anecdotes, and not universal experience.

Some people respond to that by becoming defensive and thinking that their anecdotes are under attack.

Other people develop empathy for those that have a different set of anecdotes.

It’s seems obvious which one I should aspire to be.
I have lots of thoughts on Brene Brown, but I think she absolutely nails the essence of empathy with this quote:
We need to dispel the myth that empathy is walking in someone else's shoes. Rather than walking in your shoes, I need to learn how to listen to the story you tell about what it's like in your shoes and believe you even when it doesn't match my experiences.
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Re: Are you woke?

Post by Holman »

One thing that's clear is that anti-woke crusaders are involved in an incredible over-reaction against criticism of the (their) cherished narratives.

The paradigmatic case is the outright censorship of the 1619 Project. Several states have passed laws forbidding its inclusion in any state-supported school curriculum. (This has of course been extended to the entire panic over Critical Race Theory, the meaning of which has been stretched to include anything its opponents want it to mean.)

You would think that the 1619 Project must be a singularly dangerous text, something like a manual for bomb-making or generalized violence or at least an argument for it. Instead, it's simply an opinionated (though very measured and pedagogical) call for a reassessment of the role of slavery in the founding, formation, and development of the United States. It's historians and thinkers writing about these aspects of American history.

That's it. That's all it is. Even the most rabid opponents of CRT can't identify a passage in the text that would require censorship for the public good.

When I'm asked to condemn "woke" as extreme or inherently pernicious, I ask myself where the reaction is coming from.
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Re: Are you woke?

Post by RunningMn9 »

hepcat wrote:That's probably one of the best analogies I've read on the subject.

Is that something you learned from L. Ron Hubbard?
Not L. Ron, no. :)

It’s really been bothering me lately, and it’s something I think about a lot I guess. I sort of snapped when some woman was bitching that Nike had an ad that featured a trans woman, and was crying that Nike was trying to erase her (and “real” women).

Like, imagine you’ve lived your whole life with every single sports bra ad ever conceived targeted to you and representing you. This is how you react to ONE ad aimed at a different audience? ONE?!

Imagine if every ad for your entire life was targeting the thing that these asshole say you aren’t? It’s insane.

And then the idiots with the beer. Every single Bud Light ad ever has been directed right into your stupid, shit-beer drinking face. And one thing from Bud Light directed at someone else, and you goddamn melt.

I dislike it. But having spent many years in therapy, I do a lot of self reflection on how I’ve gotten from where I was to where I am, and understanding how I’ve become a more empathetic person required understanding why I wasn’t before.
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Re: Are you woke?

Post by Blackhawk »

RunningMn9 wrote: Tue Apr 25, 2023 7:57 pm And one thing from Bud Light directed at someone else, and you goddamn melt.
Almost like some sort of snowflake...
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Re: Are you woke?

Post by hitbyambulance »

RunningMn9 wrote: Tue Apr 25, 2023 7:57 pm
And then the idiots with the beer. Every single Bud Light ad ever has been directed right into your stupid, shit-beer drinking face. And one thing from Bud Light directed at someone else, and you goddamn melt.
the way this is phrased - even sadder are that people are ... validated... from being targeted by ads ?
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Re: Are you woke?

Post by Isgrimnur »

hitbyambulance wrote: Tue Apr 25, 2023 8:53 pm
RunningMn9 wrote: Tue Apr 25, 2023 7:57 pm
And then the idiots with the beer. Every single Bud Light ad ever has been directed right into your stupid, shit-beer drinking face. And one thing from Bud Light directed at someone else, and you goddamn melt.
the way this is phrased - even sadder are that people are ... validated... from being targeted by ads ?
As long as someone gives a shit about them.
It's almost as if people are the problem.
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Re: Are you woke?

Post by Holman »

RunningMn9 wrote: Mon Apr 24, 2023 9:02 pm Some people respond to that by becoming defensive and thinking that their anecdotes are under attack.
This is a good point.

My father (born 1939 in Mississippi) was (by the time I was born in 1968, also in the South) a Buckley conservative but never a hardline reactionary. I never heard him say the n-word even once, and he made sure that his kids knew that God and Jesus loved everyone of every skin color.

At the same time, I remember him two or three times relating an anecdote from the civil rights era that seemed to have stuck under his craw: he described black civil rights protesters in the late 60s pulling cops down from their horses during race riots.

I don't know if he saw footage of this on TV or if it was just something he read about in media. Whether it ever even happened or not (and under whatever circumstances), the anecdote served as a foundational linchpin for him. It allowed him to dismiss the civil rights issue as less morally compelling than it appeared to be, and it made it something suspicious that could be put aside in favor of clearer political goals such as lower taxes or smaller government.

I think the genius of Tucker Carlson and his ilk has been in creating and promoting exactly these kinds of distracting anecdotes.
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Re: Are you woke?

Post by waitingtoconnect »

Holman wrote: Tue Apr 25, 2023 9:04 pm
RunningMn9 wrote: Mon Apr 24, 2023 9:02 pm Some people respond to that by becoming defensive and thinking that their anecdotes are under attack.
This is a good point.

My father (born 1939 in Mississippi) was (by the time I was born in 1968, also in the South) a Buckley conservative but never a hardline reactionary. I never heard him say the n-word even once, and he made sure that his kids knew that God and Jesus loved everyone of every skin color.

At the same time, I remember him two or three times relating an anecdote from the civil rights era that seemed to have stuck under his craw: he described black civil rights protesters in the late 60s pulling cops down from their horses during race riots.

I don't know if he saw footage of this on TV or if it was just something he read about in media. Whether it ever even happened or not (and under whatever circumstances), the anecdote served as a foundational linchpin for him. It allowed him to dismiss the civil rights issue as less morally compelling than it appeared to be, and it made it something suspicious that could be put aside in favor of clearer political goals such as lower taxes or smaller government.

I think the genius of Tucker Carlson and his ilk has been in creating and promoting exactly these kinds of distracting anecdotes.
To be able to get people so worked up about trivial things when we have major societal and environmental issues is incredible.

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Re: Are you woke?

Post by YellowKing »

RunningMn9 wrote:Like, imagine you’ve lived your whole life with every single sports bra ad ever conceived targeted to you and representing you. This is how you react to ONE ad aimed at a different audience? ONE?!
A speaker at one of our health equity seminars showed this picture:

Image

That really struck a chord with me in its simplicity. Here I am going about life browsing Target aisles with my daughter, thinking "Oh there are black dolls and Latino dolls and everything is right in the world." And yet, the reality is there's 90% white dolls and then whatever scraps are left over for the minority kids. I didn't see it until it was spelled out for me.
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Re: Are you woke?

Post by geezer »

Grifman wrote: Mon Apr 24, 2023 7:09 pm
geezer wrote: Mon Apr 24, 2023 5:21 pm
Kurth wrote: Mon Apr 24, 2023 2:33 pm
Grifman wrote: Mon Apr 24, 2023 12:09 pm I am semi-woke. I think the two great original sins of America are the treatment of Native Americans and slavery. And I believe that systematic injustices still exist and still need to be fought against.

But I can’t stand performative wokeness - land statements, etc and most university/corporate DEI results in just big bloated bureaucracies that contribute little to real justice. And I despise the fragility of whites that can’t stand talk of injustice because it makes them feel bad the same as I do of college students who feel they are “harmed” by the slightest dissent from woke orthodoxy and seek to restrict speech they disagree with.
This is a great summation of exactly where I think I sit on the spectrum.
I would disagree with the statement that, "..university/corporate DEI results in just big bloated bureaucracies that contribute little to real justice..." at least insofar as the university and corporate DEI departments I'm personally familiar with are generally small and sparsely manned.. er.. "personed." ;) (I have direct associates that work nationally with corporations and universities on their DEI initiatives, so I have a bit of insight on the range of these departments)
My university, UNC Chapel Hill, has about a dozen people working in the DEI office, excluding “student ambassadors”. But that’s just getting started. The med school has another dozen, the School of Public Health has three, the School of Family Medicine - WITHIN the med school (which remember already has a dozen) has another four. Just go to any department and you’ll find one to four DEI staff, not just professors volunteering their time. All of this is from these organizations own websites. Maybe small schools have just just a “ manager and a lackey or two” but that does not seem to true of major state universities.
Fair enough. (And apologies for not acknowledging sooner - I honestly forgot I had posted this)
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Re: Are you woke?

Post by geezer »

YellowKing wrote: Wed Apr 26, 2023 8:23 am
RunningMn9 wrote:Like, imagine you’ve lived your whole life with every single sports bra ad ever conceived targeted to you and representing you. This is how you react to ONE ad aimed at a different audience? ONE?!
A speaker at one of our health equity seminars showed this picture:

Image

That really struck a chord with me in its simplicity. Here I am going about life browsing Target aisles with my daughter, thinking "Oh there are black dolls and Latino dolls and everything is right in the world." And yet, the reality is there's 90% white dolls and then whatever scraps are left over for the minority kids. I didn't see it until it was spelled out for me.
That’s absolutely striking.
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Re: Are you woke?

Post by ImLawBoy »

hitbyambulance wrote: Tue Apr 25, 2023 8:53 pm
RunningMn9 wrote: Tue Apr 25, 2023 7:57 pm
And then the idiots with the beer. Every single Bud Light ad ever has been directed right into your stupid, shit-beer drinking face. And one thing from Bud Light directed at someone else, and you goddamn melt.
the way this is phrased - even sadder are that people are ... validated... from being targeted by ads ?
Why is that sad? Advertising is a huge part of our culture, for better or for worse. To be consistently excluded from that part of the culture because you're an "other" can't be a great feeling. As a straight white male, it's not something I thought too much about until the last 13 years or so. Since my son with significant disabilities was born, however, I've tended to notice when advertising includes people with disabilities. This has been happening with greater frequency over the last 5+ years, and it's great. Even something as simple as a kid using wheelchair in a Target ad is a big deal to the disabled community - they're being seen in places where they never were seen before. I would imagine it's similar for those in the trans community - they're being seen as part of mainstream culture (until people overreact, of course).
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Re: Are you woke?

Post by Smoove_B »

Case in point:
Mattel added a new Barbie doll with Down syndrome to its Fashionista collection on Tuesday.

...

The new Barbie features a shorter frame and a longer torso, as well as facial features of a person with Down syndrome, including smaller ears and a flatter nasal bridge. She also has a line on her palm, which is characteristic of those with Down syndrome.
The idea that someone would rage against this - how seriously fragile do you need to be in order for that to happen?
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Re: Are you woke?

Post by Blackhawk »

ImLawBoy wrote: Wed Apr 26, 2023 9:35 am To be consistently excluded from that part of the culture because you're an "other" can't be a great feeling. As a straight white male, it's not something I thought too much about until the last 13 years or so.
Also a straight white male. And the things that 'other' me are things I can simply leave in my pocket and nobody will notice (like being an atheist in rural Indiana.) But I'm also autistic and have severe enough side effects from it that I'm legally disabled. I became aware a long time ago that most of society, the products, the advertising, the activities - even gaming - wasn't aimed at people like me. I was welcome to come along on an experience designed for someone else, but I'd have to pretend to be like them to do so. The assumption is always that anyone who wants to participate has exactly the same wants and needs as everyone else. If you don't have those needs? Fake it or don't bother.

But while it feels pretty bad sometimes to always be excluded, I've come to simply ignore it, and have learned that if I want to be happy, I have to make my own happy, even if it doesn't take the form I'd prefer.

As an odd aside, there is also a lot of societal exclusion that comes with being poor and rural. Putting the 'poor' part aside for now, there is so, so much that is popular, exciting, and advertised that has nothing to do with reality here. I haven't seen a concert in a quarter of a century (the last one was Joe Satriani in '96.) I've never seen a musical. "Coming to select theaters" means it's not coming. Practically every business or food option I ever see mentioned or advertised effectively doesn't exist. Hobbies or activities that aren't solitary (and aren't hunting, fishing, or mudding) don't exist.

It's an odd feeling, almost like society itself is just a TV show and not completely real. Going to Ikea, then grabbing lunch at (wherever) feels about the same as dropping by The Bronze to hang out with Buffy.

Of course, none of this is comparable to the issue so neatly addressed by the doll.
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Re: Are you woke?

Post by LordMortis »

YellowKing wrote: Wed Apr 26, 2023 8:23 am
RunningMn9 wrote:Like, imagine you’ve lived your whole life with every single sports bra ad ever conceived targeted to you and representing you. This is how you react to ONE ad aimed at a different audience? ONE?!
A speaker at one of our health equity seminars showed this picture:

Image

That really struck a chord with me in its simplicity. Here I am going about life browsing Target aisles with my daughter, thinking "Oh there are black dolls and Latino dolls and everything is right in the world." And yet, the reality is there's 90% white dolls and then whatever scraps are left over for the minority kids. I didn't see it until it was spelled out for me.
I was guided into my epiphany in the early 90s when I was going to school to become a teacher. I was asked to keep a log on the way people interacted with little girls and how they interacted with little boys. The treatments, even form the very progressive, was striking. Little girls were rarely pressed harder for doing well or incentivized for doing poorly or punished for doing wrong. They were more or less generally preserved as they are, whereas little boys were encouraged at all levels to achieve more and be better. Girls, inflated for their vanity. Boys, not all. Etc... etc... etc... The process of woking up has been happening ever since. 30 years later and I'm still a woke in progress.
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Re: Are you woke?

Post by Rumpy »

YellowKing wrote: Mon Apr 24, 2023 12:33 pm Just speaking total honesty here, I admit I still feel some tinges of anti-wokeness when I see, say, a fantasy show which has exactly one Asian character, one black character, one Latino character, and a lesbian couple
I agree with you. And I think that reaction comes about because most of the attempts don't come across as honest and genuine, and if it comes through the Hollywood lens, then it can come across as rather without feeling, and it always ends up feeling like it's because of trend. But at the very least, at least, it's giving those people good jobs.

But I always feel better about things when I see something is directed from any of those groups, as a way of possibly sharing their perspective. Two great movies that I think should be watched are The Grizzlies (which employed indigenous people in front and behind the camera, even going so far as to train them in using the EQ) and Indian Horse. Both movies were made to shed light on real issues that indigenous have had to deal with, and Indian Horse (the novel) was written by an Indigenous. Both are good examples of learning about injustices and how we can do better.
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Re: Are you woke?

Post by Alefroth »

YellowKing wrote: Mon Apr 24, 2023 12:33 pm I completely admit I'm constantly fighting being raised all my life in an environment where blacks were deemed inferior and being gay is a sin.
This is as good a definition of woke as any.
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Re: Are you woke?

Post by Pyperkub »

Alefroth wrote: Wed Apr 26, 2023 4:14 pm
YellowKing wrote: Mon Apr 24, 2023 12:33 pm I completely admit I'm constantly fighting being raised all my life in an environment where blacks were deemed inferior and being gay is a sin.
This is as good a definition of woke as any.
Being gay is THE sin. All others can be overlooked, but that one is worse than murder, theft, adultery, etc.
Black Lives definitely Matter Lorini!

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Re: Are you woke?

Post by Kurth »

Skinypupy wrote: Tue Apr 25, 2023 1:48 pm I have lots of thoughts on Brene Brown, but I think she absolutely nails the essence of empathy with this quote:
We need to dispel the myth that empathy is walking in someone else's shoes. Rather than walking in your shoes, I need to learn how to listen to the story you tell about what it's like in your shoes and believe you even when it doesn't match my experiences.
I understand the sentiment, but that doesn’t really seem like empathy to me. It’s more like showing faith or trust in someone else. Empathy absolutely requires listening to others and trying to understand how they feel, but I don’t think empathy has anything to do with believing someone else. That’s a different question and brings in many different variables.

I guess this definition of empathy seems off to me in the same way the whole “Believe Survivors” slogan bothers me.
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Re: Are you woke?

Post by Blackhawk »

YellowKing wrote: Wed Apr 26, 2023 8:23 am Image

That really struck a chord with me in its simplicity. Here I am going about life browsing Target aisles with my daughter, thinking "Oh there are black dolls and Latino dolls and everything is right in the world." And yet, the reality is there's 90% white dolls and then whatever scraps are left over for the minority kids. I didn't see it until it was spelled out for me.
Looking at that picture again, I can't help but think that if it were reversed - if it were a Black girl standing in front of a wall of white dolls - that it wouldn't even register to most people what they were seeing.
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Re: Are you woke?

Post by Unagi »

Blackhawk wrote: Wed Apr 26, 2023 7:01 pm
YellowKing wrote: Wed Apr 26, 2023 8:23 am Image

That really struck a chord with me in its simplicity. Here I am going about life browsing Target aisles with my daughter, thinking "Oh there are black dolls and Latino dolls and everything is right in the world." And yet, the reality is there's 90% white dolls and then whatever scraps are left over for the minority kids. I didn't see it until it was spelled out for me.
Looking at that picture again, I can't help but think that if it were reversed - if it were a Black girl standing in front of a wall of white dolls - that it wouldn't even register to most people what they were seeing.
(I love YK)

It struck me that YK shared it, and then also later shared that he finds it offputting when a show is just totally dominated with demonstrations of "not white straight male/female" without exception any exception to the point of absurdity. Which is 100% the message of that image.
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Re: Are you woke?

Post by Unagi »

AND - to be clear - I've also found it a little "much" when I have also seen some shows do that where it seems like massive overkill.... but it struck me - that's exactly what's so awesome about that picture...
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Re: Are you woke?

Post by Blackhawk »

That picture isn't designed to show an actual scene. It's meant to reverse an absurd and extreme reality to shine a light on it and convey (very effectively) a message.

It isn't really the same thing as what he said bothered him, the kind of unnatural, awkward, forced diversity where every character needs to be of a different ethnicity regardless of setting. Unless, of course, the whole point is satire and/or social commentary. We talked lots of Wheel of Time, but Supergirl (on the CW) was another extreme example of this, where the social points they were trying to make was done so awkwardly that it became unwatchable, completely negating any message.

Aside: As to the gay scene from Wheel of Time that a lot of people ranted about, spoiler from the books:
Spoiler:
I was wrong. Moiraine and Siuan Sanche were, actually, lovers.
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Re: Are you woke?

Post by Jaymann »

Blackhawk wrote: Wed Apr 26, 2023 7:38 pm That picture isn't designed to show an actual scene. It's meant to reverse an absurd and extreme reality to shine a light on it and convey (very effectively) a message.

It isn't really the same thing as what he said bothered him, the kind of unnatural, awkward, forced diversity where every character needs to be of a different ethnicity regardless of setting. Unless, of course, the whole point is satire and/or social commentary. We talked lots of Wheel of Time, but Supergirl (on the CW) was another extreme example of this, where the social points they were trying to make was done so awkwardly that it became unwatchable, completely negating any message.

Aside: As to the gay scene from Wheel of Time that a lot of people ranted about, spoiler from the books:
Spoiler:
I was wrong. Moiraine and Siuan Sanche were, actually, lovers.
Spoiler:
But did she do a dirty Sanche?
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Re: Are you woke?

Post by Blackhawk »

Jaymann wrote: Wed Apr 26, 2023 7:54 pm
Blackhawk wrote: Wed Apr 26, 2023 7:38 pm That picture isn't designed to show an actual scene. It's meant to reverse an absurd and extreme reality to shine a light on it and convey (very effectively) a message.

It isn't really the same thing as what he said bothered him, the kind of unnatural, awkward, forced diversity where every character needs to be of a different ethnicity regardless of setting. Unless, of course, the whole point is satire and/or social commentary. We talked lots of Wheel of Time, but Supergirl (on the CW) was another extreme example of this, where the social points they were trying to make was done so awkwardly that it became unwatchable, completely negating any message.

Aside: As to the gay scene from Wheel of Time that a lot of people ranted about, spoiler from the books:
Spoiler:
I was wrong. Moiraine and Siuan Sanche were, actually, lovers.
Spoiler:
But did she do a dirty Sanche?
Spoiler:
Neither was Brown Ajah.
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Re: Are you woke?

Post by YellowKing »

Yeah, what Blackhawk said. It's not the diversity that bothers me, it's the transparent attempt to force diversity. And it only really ever bothers me when it's forced into IPs where that diversity isn't reflected in the source material. I know it's necessary - we can't get to the point where diversity doesn't feel forced until we normalize it on screen.

That said, Unagi's observation is still valid to some degree, and was another point I was trying to make. I can look at the doll picture and applaud the message, and at the same time feel a little irked at diversity where I wasn't expecting it. I think that's the human struggle with innate bias/prejudice. I don't *want* to feel slightly irritated when they make my favorite comic book hero gay or black, when I grew up knowing him as white and straight. But sometimes I do.

I don't want to delude myself into believing I don't have innate prejudices. I do, however, want to live every day trying my damndest not to act on them.
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Re: Are you woke?

Post by Unagi »

When I see it, I honestly feel like this: "OMG, that is so stupid... and we so deserve it." So I swallow it, and I understand why it's bitter.
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Re: Are you woke?

Post by Unagi »

Kurth wrote: Wed Apr 26, 2023 4:24 pm
Skinypupy wrote: Tue Apr 25, 2023 1:48 pm I have lots of thoughts on Brene Brown, but I think she absolutely nails the essence of empathy with this quote:
We need to dispel the myth that empathy is walking in someone else's shoes. Rather than walking in your shoes, I need to learn how to listen to the story you tell about what it's like in your shoes and believe you even when it doesn't match my experiences.
I understand the sentiment, but that doesn’t really seem like empathy to me. It’s more like showing faith or trust in someone else. Empathy absolutely requires listening to others and trying to understand how they feel, but I don’t think empathy has anything to do with believing someone else. That’s a different question and brings in many different variables.

I guess this definition of empathy seems off to me in the same way the whole “Believe Survivors” slogan bothers me.
I learned it all this way:

Sympathy was the ability to hear someone's problems and to be nice and helpful to their predicament. That was just level 1 caring. Be kind. Maybe vote for their causes. But believe them. Foremost. But Sympathy keeps you a little removed from the whole thing. You feel bad for them. But you are also happy it isn't you. It's totally appropriate for distant problems or dealing with things you aren't expected to actually deal with (letting a distant friend know that you care about them after you hear their spouse died).

Empathy was the ability to actually take on (as your own) their frustration or needs as if they were your own (and they may be). Indeed, some people may require the word "empathy" to imply that you indeed have actually been in their exact position before and you know exactly how they feel. But at the very least, it's an offer to take on their misery/fear/concerns as your own.
It's about feeling it. Truly.
And yeah, that is going to mean you need to listen to the story someone else tells and actually believe them, without judgment. Believe them. That is NOT to say you shouldn't keep your normal guard for bullshit open, but that you are open to the idea that it's not bullshit.

What you describe there (Skinypupy) seems to be someone struggling to give other people credit for their own experiences, and telling people they really should believe other people. Almost like the distinction behind Sympathy (being generous and kind to the idea of the problem) and Empathy (actually adopting this problem as so real, you also share the pain)
Last edited by Unagi on Wed Apr 26, 2023 8:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Are you woke?

Post by Smoove_B »

That's kinda close to what I was taught (and I teach). Empathy comes from being able to relate to someone's experience. I would never say to someone that lost their house in a tornado, "I know exactly what you're going through" - because I don't. Instead, I'd want to express sympathy - making sure the person knows I hear them and I'm going to do what I can to help (if they ask). When you can offer empathy, it's a stronger emotion but only if it's genuine - that you really can identify with what the other person experienced based on your own experiences. Trying to offer empathy (through words or actions) when you can't relate can be damaging.
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Re: Are you woke?

Post by Unagi »

(heh, I was editing while you wrote that...) I added the bit about how sympathy has its totally legitimate place in social discord. :)
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Re: Are you woke?

Post by Unagi »

Also, I agree - as I mentioned - there is some thought that empathy needs to come from first-hand experience only, and I tend to agree... but I also think there is a meaning of 'empathy' that means to imply "This is a topic that is big in my mind and I can't begin to tell you how much I agree with what you just expressed... and indeed, I take your own first-hand experience and position to further imbed my own feelings about this."

In other words, I think that after time, people that truly sympathize with a problem can be brought to empathize with that problem even if they themselves have never actually gone through that problem... only because they are now also emotionally wrapped into it all. Still, there is probably a very good reason to still provide a word for "Oh no, I know what you mean - I have been/ am in your exact position" - and that probably is best held by "empathy/ empathize".

Perhaps I long for a 2nd tier 'Sympathy', where I want to express that I'm not just being reasonable and nice about it, but that I actually feel pissed off about it (like they may, etc).
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Re: Are you woke?

Post by Victoria Raverna »

About diversity, what are your opinion about the black Cleopatra from the new Netflix documentary?

I supported black actress being casted as Little Mermaid. I'll also support black actress being casted as Cleopatra in a fictional historical movie, but I have problem with a black Cleopatra in a documentary.
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Re: Are you woke?

Post by Unagi »

Victoria Raverna wrote: Wed Apr 26, 2023 9:05 pm but I have problem with a black Cleopatra in a documentary.
I mean, I suppose I get it. But - meh.
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Re: Are you woke?

Post by Blackhawk »

YellowKing wrote: Wed Apr 26, 2023 8:07 pm And it only really ever bothers me when it's forced into IPs where that diversity isn't reflected in the source material.
See, even that doesn't bother me. I don't care if they add diversity where it isn't in the source - I'm just bothered when they add it when it is contraindicated by the source, especially when there are other options for showing that diversity, or where it is diversity for diversity's sake (at which point it edges toward tokenism.) If they rebooted firefly and made the entire crew Hispanic, or Asian, that wouldn't bother me in the least.

At the same time, as was mentioned, when the main cast is blatantly composed of one Black person, one Asian person, one Indian person, one Hispanic person, and one white person, where each person also fills one social role (there's the one gay person, the one non-binary person, etc), it doesn't feel like representation. It feels like advertising.

I read something somewhere once that said that when it comes to diversity, the approach matters, that the diversity has to be authentic to be representation rather than tokenism. Often, the kind of diversity we're talking about isn't authentic. The diversity is there to show the audience that the show is diverse, nothing more. It's there to draw viewers, or show that the show is right-thinking, not because they're good choices for the parts, or because it is about what makes them unique. They're Asian because they want to show that they have someone Asian. They're gay so that they can show that they have someone gay. Or worse, they're Black and their only reason for being Black is so that the bad guy can establish his badness by targeting him for it. It's symbolic, not meaningful. Not authentic. It is the illusion of fairness.

Going back to Wheel of Time (because it is recent, and a good example), they gave Lan an Asian actor, but they also gave him a culture to go with it, a background, a story. He looks the way he does because it matters, and that's good representation. It's authentic, and his difference become meaningful. They then added in one Indigenous Australian, one Black woman, one Black man, and two white men as the main characters, all of whom came from the same small gene pool in the same small, isolated rural mountain town. They didn't have diverse backgrounds to go with it - they were all of the same generic western European background (I always thought Wales.) They look that way because... a wizard did it. They were (visually) diverse only to show that they were visually diverse, to check the boxes, and that isn't being respectful or thoughtful to anyone - it's using them for an agenda, and even if I agree with the agenda (which I do), that isn't positive diversity. To put it another way, it wasn't Black or Indigenous Australian characters - all of those characters were white, and all of them remained white with PoC playing those white roles written for white audiences by white writers who didn't acknowledge their diversity in any way.

Do you want to show diversity in Wheel of Time? Build the Shienarans off of Lan. Bring in Faile early, who is an excellent character and incredibly strong and effective (and Egwene's actress would have been a great choice for her.) Introduce Tuon early, who suffers from being a bit of a villain, but is undoubtedly strong. Make Lan a bigger, more central character (IE - have a non-white leading man.)

Great example of representation? Go watch Ms Marvel. She's Pakistani and it matters to the show, to her character, to her development, and to the story. She's neither a victim nor a stereotype. Her culture isn't portrayed as a sideshow. There isn't a white hero to save her. She's her, she's who she is, and that's that.
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Re: Are you woke?

Post by Jaymann »

Victoria Raverna wrote: Wed Apr 26, 2023 9:05 pm About diversity, what are your opinion about the black Cleopatra from the new Netflix documentary?

I supported black actress being casted as Little Mermaid. I'll also support black actress being casted as Cleopatra in a fictional historical movie, but I have problem with a black Cleopatra in a documentary.
Wait a minute, since when are Egyptians lily white?
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Re: Are you woke?

Post by Unagi »

Jaymann wrote: Wed Apr 26, 2023 9:17 pm
Victoria Raverna wrote: Wed Apr 26, 2023 9:05 pm About diversity, what are your opinion about the black Cleopatra from the new Netflix documentary?

I supported black actress being casted as Little Mermaid. I'll also support black actress being casted as Cleopatra in a fictional historical movie, but I have problem with a black Cleopatra in a documentary.
Wait a minute, since when are Egyptians lily white?
She was Greek. Not black nor lily white.
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Re: Are you woke?

Post by Blackhawk »

(I'm not disagreeing, just building off of your post.)
Smoove_B wrote: Wed Apr 26, 2023 8:51 pm That's kinda close to what I was taught (and I teach). Empathy comes from being able to relate to someone's experience. I would never say to someone that lost their house in a tornado, "I know exactly what you're going through" - because I don't. Instead, I'd want to express sympathy - making sure the person knows I hear them and I'm going to do what I can to help (if they ask). When you can offer empathy, it's a stronger emotion but only if it's genuine - that you really can identify with what the other person experienced based on your own experiences. Trying to offer empathy (through words or actions) when you can't relate can be damaging.
Sympathy is your brain. It is realizing that someone is feeling, even if you're not feeling it yourself, and feeling sorry for their situation. It can be dangerously close to pity, and tends to be shallow.

Empathy is your emotions. It is understanding and relating to what someone is feeling because you have felt it (or something like it), too.

The third step in the progression, however, is compassion. Compassion is like empathy, except instead just understanding and relating, you feel it along with them. You suffer when they suffer. And, unlike the other two, you are willing to take action.
I would never say to someone that lost their house in a tornado, "I know exactly what you're going through" - because I don't. Instead, I'd want to express sympathy
Which is right. You see suffering, and you feel bad that they're suffering. Sympathy is expressing that.

But maybe you'd lost your home in a fire, or you'd experienced other, similar, sudden loss, enough so that understand exactly how they're feeling and can relate. That's empathy (although you still wouldn't say, "I know exactly what you're going through.")

And if you see them suffering, and it causes you to suffer right along with them, and you respond by inviting them to stay at your home for a few weeks, or by donating, or by volunteering to rebuild, that's compassion.

It is my long-held belief that compassion is humanity's greatest gift, and our most powerful tool.
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Re: Are you woke?

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YellowKing wrote:
RunningMn9 wrote:Like, imagine you’ve lived your whole life with every single sports bra ad ever conceived targeted to you and representing you. This is how you react to ONE ad aimed at a different audience? ONE?!
A speaker at one of our health equity seminars showed this picture:

Image

That really struck a chord with me in its simplicity. Here I am going about life browsing Target aisles with my daughter, thinking "Oh there are black dolls and Latino dolls and everything is right in the world." And yet, the reality is there's 90% white dolls and then whatever scraps are left over for the minority kids. I didn't see it until it was spelled out for me.
I would say that’s a powerful picture, but too many people would see that, and think that’s what is happening to that poor little white girl because of the woke mind virus.
And in banks across the world
Christians, Moslems, Hindus, Jews
And every other race, creed, colour, tint or hue
Get down on their knees and pray
The raccoon and the groundhog neatly
Make up bags of change
But the monkey in the corner
Well he's slowly drifting out of range
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Re: Are you woke?

Post by Blackhawk »

Also: This has been a terrifying thread to post in.
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Re: Are you woke?

Post by Kraken »

Jaymann wrote: Wed Apr 26, 2023 9:17 pm
Victoria Raverna wrote: Wed Apr 26, 2023 9:05 pm About diversity, what are your opinion about the black Cleopatra from the new Netflix documentary?

I supported black actress being casted as Little Mermaid. I'll also support black actress being casted as Cleopatra in a fictional historical movie, but I have problem with a black Cleopatra in a documentary.
Wait a minute, since when are Egyptians lily white?
We don't know how much melanin Cleopatra's skin had. Wiki says "Scholars have generally identified Cleopatra as having been essentially of Greek ancestry with some Persian and Sogdian Iranian ancestry, based on the fact that her Macedonian Greek family (the Ptolemaic dynasty) had intermarried with the Seleucid dynasty." The idea that she was Black has been around since the 19th century but without convincing evidence.

I haven't seen the documentary, but IMO casting her as African would be as misleading as making her Elizabeth Taylor. Either one is fine for a work of fiction, not-so-fine in a doc, which by definition should strive for accuracy.
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