Trump 2024

[Zaxxon]

Most people are NOT political junkies. They are not nearly aware of things as the people posting on this forum.

We're not talking about political junkies. We're talking about even the slightest, wisp-thin capability to follow current events.

I agree with you that there's a plethora of reasons that people voted for Trump. I disagree that continuing to support him and the MAGA movement in general in mid-2023 is as excusable as you convey it to be.

I never said it was excusable. I said voting for Trump didn’t mean that those voters were “bad” people. I can understand why someone makes a bad decision, and I can say that it is poor thinking on their part, and I can strongly disagree with that decision without condemning them.

Then you are, in fact, saying it's excusable. Perhaps that's our difference here. In 2016 I would have agreed with you. In 2023 I do not.

[Carpet_pissr]

I look at the Maga crowd like the Nazi party. A Trump flag is a Nazi flag as far as I'm concerned. I promise you most or the people flying that flag would not bat an eye if Dems were rounded up and thrown in camps. Hell Trump said he would that with homeless people and nobody batted an eye.

I do think there is a difference between the MAGA crowd and the rest of Trump/Republican voters. MAGA is the closest thing to a political cult I have seen.

Yes, I think this is important, and even thought it's been mentioned twice now, I'll chime in and agree.

Again, my father. Never seen him wear a MAGA hat (and don't THINK he owns one), he's never actively brought up Trump, doesn't have flags etc. BUT I've seen the evidence, and I've had enough unfortunate exchanges (usually ending in yelling on both sides) with him to know that he voted Trump. I do not know how he feels about 1/6 however. Might have even been a turning point for him (I wonder if that was the case for many in his camp...OK, yeah, we vote for you, support you, etc maybe even throw a few dollars your way, but the 1/6 shenanigans were too far). He's been AWFULLY quiet about anything political since then.

In any case, I absolutely do not excuse his voting for him, his support for him, and even his buying into everything that Fox News sold him. But the CONTINUED rally goers, Trump flag fliers, basically those that have doubled down on Trump after all this has come out? I would absolutely shun them, and have (thankfully I didn't know but one person that would come close to that description).

I honestly don't know how I would handle having a close family member being a schwag-wearing, flag-flying Trump supporter.

[Grifman]

Most people are NOT political junkies. They are not nearly aware of things as the people posting on this forum.

We're not talking about political junkies. We're talking about even the slightest, wisp-thin capability to follow current events.

I agree with you that there's a plethora of reasons that people voted for Trump. I disagree that continuing to support him and the MAGA movement in general in mid-2023 is as excusable as you convey it to be.

I never said it was excusable. I said voting for Trump didn’t mean that those voters were “bad” people. I can understand why someone makes a bad decision, and I can say that it is poor thinking on their part, and I can strongly disagree with that decision without condemning them.

Then you are, in fact, saying it's excusable. Perhaps that's our difference here. In 2016 I would have agreed with you. In 2023 I do not.

You're not making any sense from a logic standpoint. Saying something is inexcusable is not the same as saying that the same people that did something inexcusable are "bad" people. The latter does not logically or necessarily follow from the former. I'm know all sorts of people who have done "inexcusable" things - including myself (things which I am quite ashamed of) - but that doesn't mean we're are bad people. Do what you want but I'm not going to measure people solely by whether they voted for Trump or not - and I'm as much as a Never Trumper as anyone on this forum, or in my life that I know of for that matter.

[Kraken]

Most people are NOT political junkies. They are not nearly aware of things as the people posting on this forum.

Does one need to be political to realize that trump is racist, misogynist, and fascist? I mean, his own actions and statements are right out there in everyone's faces. His supporters either ARE racist, misogynist, and/or fascist, or none of that's a deal-breaker for them. They would have to be completely delusional to believe that none of these accusations are true.

I'm prepared to believe that some subset of them inhabit such a warped unreality that they ARE that delusional. They simply refuse to believe anything negative about trump or can rationalize it away (e.g., "grab 'em by the pussy" is just locker-room talk; only an authoritarian can defeat the communist deep state; immigrants are going to replace us and take all our stuff).

I'll skirt the question of good and bad because they're slippery and loaded terms, except to note that history is replete with bad guys who thought they were the good guys. MAGAts are that.

[Unagi]

If you can do that, then enjoy your luxury of never having to deal with people you don't agree with.

That's a bit of a hyperbolic leap right there.
I disagree with people that 'vote Democrat' all the time, just not about things like women's reproductive rights and my transgender child's right to exist.

[Blackhawk]

I don't think people realize what 'clueless' really is. I've had relatives who never would have gone near Trump. I've had relatives who would kneel down and let him use them as a footstool.

But I've also had relatives who had zero understanding of politics, and never watched any news beyond the local weather. They voted Republican because they people they knew always voted Republican. They couldn't have told you who the VP was, how many people were on the Supreme Court (or even one of their names), who their Senator was, what a Primary is, or what the Electoral College was.

And then there is another swathe. There are those who don't rationalize Trump because they don't need to. They have a single source of information that they trust (usually Fox) that tells them why Trump is awesome. Where, exactly, do they hear the terrible things that they need to rationalize in order to vote for Trump? All they've ever heard is the good. They fully believe that they're making a good, conscientious choice, as much as we do when we vote against Trump.

These were not 'bad' people, and they wouldn't be choosing to 'do bad things.'

OO is full of smart, rational, thinking people. That sort of people have a hard time imagining just what 'clueless' actually looks like, but I can promise you: it's far more common than you realize.

(Note: I used past tense quite a bit. That's because most of the people I was talking about aren't around anymore.)

[waitingtoconnect]

And then there is another swathe. There are those who don't rationalize Trump because they don't need to. They have a single source of information that they trust (usually Fox) that tells them why Trump is awesome. Where, exactly, do they hear the terrible things that they need to rationalize in order to vote for Trump? All they've ever heard is the good. They fully believe that they're making a good, conscientious choice, as much as we do when we vote against Trump.

These were not 'bad' people, and they wouldn't be choosing to 'do bad things.'

OO is full of smart, rational, thinking people. That sort of people have a hard time imagining just what 'clueless' actually looks like, but I can promise you: it's far more common than you realize.

(Note: I used past tense quite a bit. That's because most of the people I was talking about aren't around anymore.)

This is right. You see it everywhere from people who don’t really understand or care about the system. They don’t even care what the system is.

Arguably this was the downfall of the first Roman Republic. The plebs weren’t capable of understanding the system and it was corrupted by rich families and elites with the end result the rise of Caesar.

I have family members and friends who swear by Fox - nice people but they believe Biden is the root of all evil - it’s an utterly different world. Like the partner who believes you are cheating on them when you aren’t or the teenager who thinks she’s fat when she isn’t it’s complete indoctrination either by self or by fear or by media.

I had a builder who was a really nice guy but was completely indoctrinated by Fox. He believed what Tucker Carlson would say.

[LawBeefaroni]

Ignoring the good/bad person distinction, people who are led by propaganda, who vote strict party lines despite candidate policy, and who support discriminatory, hateful, or anti-truth laws are bad voters. Ignorant decisions can have outcomes indistinguishable from bad ones. They are the reason democracy fails and why our republic is teetering on the edge of the abyss.

They may be otherwise great and noble people but they are horrible voters and are surely as dangerous a threat to the Constitution as the nation has ever faced. They support a man who constantly seeks to subvert the Constitution and who attempted to overthrow a Constitutionally elected administration.

We had a Civil War that pitted a lot of good people against each other. They willingly killed each other. Those are the potentual stakes here if these bad voters continue to support bad people.

And to be clear, they are bad voters not because they don't vote the way I, or anyone else, wants. They are bad voters because the only argument that keeps them from being bad people is that they are misled or suffer from cognitive dissonance or are uninformed.

[YellowKing]

Good people, bad people, whatever. My only original point was that I've got to let go of the anger and resentment and frustration towards people that vote differently *whether that anger and resentment is deserved or not.* Because that anger and resentment doesn't change their vote, it just brings negativity into my life.

I've got many, many friends, family members, and co-workers that I know will vote for Trump in 2024 if he's the candidate. I have the choice to let that eat me up inside and impact the 99.9% of the time I spend with them where politics is not in the picture, or....not. Doesn't mean I support their decision, doesn't mean I excuse their decision.

My mother-in-law has been voting Republican for the past 60+ years. My brother-in-law is a die-hard progressive, and I've watched them get in knock-down drag out fights over politics. For what? At the end of the day, she's still voting the way she's going to vote. The only thing that's changed is that he has a horrible relationship with his mother to the point they barely speak to each other anymore. I don't want to go down that road with people I care about.

[Unagi]

First, I understand what you are saying YK.
Also, I think think the whole 'good/bad' label seems to be getting in the way of this conversation (unfortunately, as I don't think it needed to be a distraction) - as there are a lot of ways to hear/define those words - and people mean different things when they say them - I suppose it was inevitable. I only mean to imply their behavior/belief/convictions will lead to the ruin of our country and actual physical attacks on vulnerable innocent people... that's what I mean by a bad person.

You are lucky YK. You are lucky in the sense that you don't really have to come to terms with your avoidance of negativity. You can just stop being a 'liberal' in front of your 'conservative' folks - and then the negativity just goes away. I don't have that option at all... I have a 16-year-old, transgender child that has grown up with Trump as their example of leadership - and one can't simply be respectful/silent to the conservative movement and not be met with a great deal of negativity (massive fear and anxiety that is entirely justified) from my young transgender child. And they are absolutely right to not "let me" just ignore it. This is really serious stuff happening. Honestly, no drama, we are approaching a truly Nazi level of prejudice and potential horror. So, you will please forgive me if I want to change those people's votes - very very urgently.

If we don't talk to the people we care about (i.e. The only people we are close enough to, to even have a chance at making any true impact) and let them know how we feel they are 'going astray', what point is there in trying to better the world at all? Honestly? Who else is ever going to change the hearts and minds of your mother-in-law, if not your brother-in-law? More power to him. And I'm sure he doesn't like the situation that life has apparently thrust him into one bit, but I honestly appreciate his attempt to educate his mother. People actually can change, if they respect and love people that hold opinions that can be championed by them in the right way. Or perhaps at the very least, they can be left unenthusiastic about their original point of view and stop contributing their vote for Hate, that's all we really need.

The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to avoid negativity in their life.

[Zaxxon]

Well said, Unagi. And apologies for bringing the 'bad' label into it.

[Unagi]

And then there is another swathe. There are those who don't rationalize Trump because they don't need to. They have a single source of information that they trust (usually Fox) that tells them why Trump is awesome. Where, exactly, do they hear the terrible things that they need to rationalize in order to vote for Trump? All they've ever heard is the good. They fully believe that they're making a good, conscientious choice, as much as we do when we vote against Trump.

These were not 'bad' people, and they wouldn't be choosing to 'do bad things.'

OO is full of smart, rational, thinking people. That sort of people have a hard time imagining just what 'clueless' actually looks like, but I can promise you: it's far more common than you realize.

(Note: I used past tense quite a bit. That's because most of the people I was talking about aren't around anymore.)

This is right. You see it everywhere from people who don’t really understand or care about the system. They don’t even care what the system is.

Arguably this was the downfall of the first Roman Republic. The plebs weren’t capable of understanding the system and it was corrupted by rich families and elites with the end result the rise of Caesar.

I have family members and friends who swear by Fox - nice people but they believe Biden is the root of all evil - it’s an utterly different world. Like the partner who believes you are cheating on them when you aren’t or the teenager who thinks she’s fat when she isn’t it’s complete indoctrination either by self or by fear or by media.

I had a builder who was a really nice guy but was completely indoctrinated by Fox. He believed what Tucker Carlson would say.

I also want to say that I understand that these people exist in great numbers and that, otherwise*, these would not be people I would ever classify as 'bad people'.

* But to LB's point - they are bad voters. They are uninformed and totally uninterested. They are the exact people that should not vote - but they vote. Their vote has consequences, and if those consequences are truly horrific - it's hard for me to dismiss their responsibility/contribution to it all. It's almost like drunk driving. I realize the guy was just trying to have fun and get drunk and then get themselves home - and as long as nothing ever happens - it seems innocuous enough... but if our reality is that drunk drivers regularly kill other people, they can't hide behind "well, no ill-will was intended" as a defense. Stupid analogy... I just mean to say that the "story behind the person" whose vote contributes to a Trump election doesn't change the results... Trump and the whole world will see those numbers as "full-on supporters", not just a bunch of willfully ignorant, uninterested lottery players...

[Unagi]

And apologies for bringing the 'bad' label into it.

I thought I started that. In any case, I think the label fits because I don't look at people as being stuck with the label - more as a label of shame that they would want to shed. I'm not saying all of their souls are doomed to eternal damnation. I'm saying they are seriously hurting people (whether they know it or not) and they have the option not to.

I realize that some Trump voters tutor children, volunteer at the children's hospital, donate food and clothes to the poor, and do any number of truly good things. I think those people are the most ripe to understand that what they are doing with their vote leads to bad - because it sounds like they are truly thoughtful, selfless, and giving people - and honestly: that is the quality their vote is against.

They are 'bad people' in the same way that someone could be a 'bad driver' or 'bad husband'. It's about what your actions are doing to others.

[Blackhawk]

Ignoring the good/bad person distinction, people who are led by propaganda, who vote strict party lines despite candidate policy, and who support discriminatory, hateful, or anti-truth laws are bad voters. Ignorant decisions can have outcomes indistinguishable from bad ones. They are the reason democracy fails and why our republic is teetering on the edge of the abyss.

They may be otherwise great and noble people but they are horrible voters and are surely as dangerous a threat to the Constitution as the nation has ever faced. They support a man who constantly seeks to subvert the Constitution and who attempted to overthrow a Constitutionally elected administration.

We had a Civil War that pitted a lot of good people against each other. They willingly killed each other. Those are the potentual stakes here if these bad voters continue to support bad people.

And to be clear, they are bad voters not because they don't vote the way I, or anyone else, wants. They are bad voters because the only argument that keeps them from being bad people is that they are misled or suffer from cognitive dissonance or are uninformed.

I don't disagree with that. People who make any important decision without information are deciding badly (regardless of the outcome.)

But then again, Fox News voters aren't deciding without information. They're deciding with what they believe to be good, solid information. I mean, look at it this way: I don't believe what I read about Biden on Fox News, because I've read the other viewpoints that tell me, in advance, that it's bullshit. Fox News readers don't believe what they read on BBC or WaPo about Trump because they've read other viewpoints that tell them, in advance, that it's bullshit. Some people, probably a lot of people, who are Fox voters do so knowingly and willfully. But many are closer to being the victims of a scam who have been manipulated to believe that the choice they're making is actually is actually the better choice.

I just think that we've gone way too far down the voted for red = terrible human being rabbit hole.

[Blackhawk]

I'm saying they are seriously hurting people (whether they know it or not) and they have the option not to.

If they don't know it, why would they take the option to change it?

[Unagi]

I'm saying they are seriously hurting people (whether they know it or not) and they have the option not to.

If they don't know it, why would they take the option to change it?

They wouldn't.
Which is why it is critical for friends and family to inform them.
Right?

[Blackhawk]

I'm saying they are seriously hurting people (whether they know it or not) and they have the option not to.

If they don't know it, why would they take the option to change it?

They wouldn't.
Which is why it is critical for friends and family to inform them.
Right?

Sure. But inform them of what? The truth? Because that brings us back to my last post:

I mean, look at it this way: I don't believe what I read about Biden on Fox News, because I've read the other viewpoints that tell me, in advance, that it's bullshit. Fox News readers don't believe what they read on BBC or WaPo about Trump because they've read other viewpoints that tell them, in advance, that it's bullshit.

If you come at them with the objective truth, you're going to find that they've been prepped for that.

As I've said before, it's easy to counter the truth, because you can prepare for the truth in advance. It's harder to prepare for a lie, as you don't know what the lie is until it happens. The people behind the lies know what the counters to what they're saying are going to be (because they know the truth), and have laid the groundwork for their viewers to discount those things in advance. As a result, Fox voters also believe that they should be informing their own friends and family that they're being misled.

So, what's the answer? Send grandma to a deprogrammer?

[Unagi]

Conversation? Heartfelt, relentless, earnest conversation.

Are you suggesting that just giving Grandma a pat on the head is indeed the best course of action? (Aside: And does that apply to Uncle Joe and Aunt Karen, or just poor tired Grandma?)

I don't think the situation you describe that we are all in is some suit of armor that keeps everyone from actually hearing the actual merits of the actual problem, etc.
I still believe in the existence of absolute truths. Not everything has 'alternate truths' that can survive the light of day. And if we are talking about the people that attend a Trump rally and scoff at reality/logic and enthusiastically support Trump with relish, well then yeah - it would seem those people would never listen to what we are asking them to listen to - and I highly doubt they are spending any time in any soup kitchens.

[Kurth]

I still believe in the existence of absolute truths.

So much easier to figure out who’s good and who’s bad when you believe in the existence of absolute truths coupled with confidence in your ability to correctly discern those truths.

[Unagi]

I still believe in the existence of absolute truths.

So much easier to figure out who’s good and who’s bad when you believe in the existence of absolute truths coupled with confidence in your ability to correctly discern those truths.

Yeah, thanks.

[Kurth]

It's easier to step back and resist the urge to call a spade a spade when you're not close to folks in the demographic groups being actively harmed by MAGA.

Just a friendly PSA: You might want to retire the emphasized idiom in that quote. While it’s origins are pure, it’s one of those idioms that has become racialized over time.

Of course, you could stand your ground and try to reclaim it, but some people might mistake you for a bad person for your continued usage.

The choice is yours!

[Unagi]

It's easier to step back and resist the urge to call a spade a spade when you're not close to folks in the demographic groups being actively harmed by MAGA.

Just a friendly PSA: You might want to retire the emphasized idiom in that quote. While it’s origins are pure, it’s one of those idioms that has become racialized over time.

Of course, you could stand your ground and try to reclaim it, but some people might mistake you for a bad person for your continued usage.

The choice is yours!

I find your replies to be flippant and kinda disingenuous.
Do you not believe in the judicial systems ability to reveal a truth?

The things I’m talking about are not like being mistakenly judged a racist.


(Btw, we’ve discussed the spade a spade here a number of times in OO.)

[Kurth]

I still believe in the existence of absolute truths.

So much easier to figure out who’s good and who’s bad when you believe in the existence of absolute truths coupled with confidence in your ability to correctly discern those truths.

Yeah, thanks.

That wasn’t really meant to be snarky or flippant (well, maybe a little, and for that I apologize).

If I had a transgender child who was being targeted by the anti-trans hate we’re seeing from the MAGA crowd and the right-wing FOX propaganda machine, I think I’d probably be hard pressed to not see some absolute truths about the situation.

And, to be clear, I agree that there are absolute truths. I just try to resist believing in my ability to know their contours.

[Zaxxon]

It's easier to step back and resist the urge to call a spade a spade when you're not close to folks in the demographic groups being actively harmed by MAGA.

Just a friendly PSA: You might want to retire the emphasized idiom in that quote. While it’s origins are pure, it’s one of those idioms that has become racialized over time.

Of course, you could stand your ground and try to reclaim it, but some people might mistake you for a bad person for your continued usage.

The choice is yours!

Didn't know that history of the phrase. Thanks.

As to the rest of your last two posts, man, not sure what to say other than you're smarter than that. You seem to be injecting nuance where there is none for sake of argument. If it's really your position that it is not an objective truth that Trump's a garbage human, or that voting for him is objectively bad for the country, or that anyone who's listened to anything he's said in the past several years should know better, then I've misjudged you.

It's really not that complicated. Even Blackhawk's continued reiteration of the bubbled nature of the rural Midwest is tiring. It's no excuse anymore. We're not talking about high-minded disagreement about complex policy, or the history of a particular idiom, where it could be reasonable for folks to not know better. We're talking about on-the-surface, immediately obvious horribleness. Especially to a mass of humans purporting to follow the teachings of Jesus.

And YK, what a wonderful freedom you have, to not have those close to you be harmed by the GOP's policies and goals, such that you can choose to go with the flow with a clear conscience. I say this genuinely, as I can't imagine being in that position.

[Blackhawk]

Are you suggesting that just giving Grandma a pat on the head is indeed the best course of action? (Aside: And does that apply to Uncle Joe and Aunt Karen, or just poor tired Grandma?)

I don't believe that I suggested any course of action. I don't know the course of action. In fact, I'd be willing to bet that the best course of action is going to be different with every family. What might save the day for one family will be hot air for another, and will tear another family apart permanently.

It's really not that complicated. Even Blackhawk's continued reiteration of the bubbled nature of the rural Midwest is tiring. It's no excuse anymore.

I didn't say it was an excuse. I said that the issue is more complex and more about human nature and how easily persuaded and misled we are than the black-and-white, good-and-evil that people want to make it. I said that Grandma had been manipulated and used as opposed to Grandma being a willful Nazi.

We're talking about on-the-surface, immediately obvious horribleness.

And again, if someone's only source of information spins all of the events into the opposite light, is it really on-the-surface and obvious to those people? They'd been taught to discount the objective truth before they ever heard it, and them dismissing it is, from their view, no different from us dismissing what we read on Fox News.

If you want to look for something to blame, look at a society that doesn't encourage or teach people to discriminate information. One that has them memorizing facts, but never teaches them how to distinguish fact from fancy. That never teaches people to distinguish what's real from what we want to be real. We, as a society, have raised ourselves for exactly the kind of manipulation that we're seeing now.

It isn't an excuse that people don't know about what's being done under their vote. It's reality. And people can hate them for that. But I won't. If I hate and blame every one of them, then they (the people responsible) really have achieved what they wanted - a society of us-vs-them that they can then use to their own advantage.

They can hate us collectively if they want to. I will hold my blame for individuals, not entire swathes of the population.

[Unagi]

And, to be clear, I agree that there are absolute truths. I just try to resist believing in my ability to know their contours.

Do you not hear how this statement implies that I don't carefully weigh my ability to know their contours?

I don't think everything I believe strongly in is an automatic/absolute truth. I understand complexities, contexts, cultures, and more - can render a number of things I want to happen, to be still "up for debate".
I understand that I am talking about moral truths here too... not scientific truths. And any of those truths are all still approximations of The Truth.

Still, there are some things that I think are, for social matters, truths. If it helps the philosopher, we can describe them as core beliefs that deserve to be championed versus their opposite. Something like "it's better to help someone or even let them be, compared to actively hurting them"... or "We should try to pick the path of minimal suffering when that is available". And to put it back to the contours, the path isn't totally obvious most of the time... and there could be a few answers, etc. I understand all of that. But there are some clearly wrong answers too, and we need to be able to call those out.

If I had a transgender child who was being targeted by the anti-trans hate we’re seeing from the MAGA crowd and the right-wing FOX propaganda machine, I think I’d probably be hard pressed to not see some absolute truths about the situation.

Okay, and so... how do you feel about that exact same thing when you just know that one of these transgender children simply exists, but isn't yours? I don't understand the qualifier.

[Unagi]

If you want to look for something to blame, look at a society that doesn't encourage or teach people to discriminate information.

We are society. How do you expect anyone to encourage or teach people to discriminate information if we can't talk to people we care about, about the things that need to be talked about? Tears? Sign-language? Broken noses? I'm literally saying we need to talk to the people we know. There should be no pushback.

[Kurth]

If I had a transgender child who was being targeted by the anti-trans hate we’re seeing from the MAGA crowd and the right-wing FOX propaganda machine, I think I’d probably be hard pressed to not see some absolute truths about the situation.

Okay, and so... how do you feel about that exact same thing when you just know that one of these transgender children simply exists, but isn't yours? I don't understand the qualifier.

I don't understand how you don't understand the qualifier. Personal experience matters. A lot. Thinking about a transgender child in the abstract is not the same thing as thinking about a specific transgender child that you know, and it's a world apart from thinking about your own transgender child.

I don't have a transgender kid myself. I can and do empathize with them (and their parents), but I don't think for a second that I'm going to experience the same overwhelming feelings I imagine I would for my own child. Without the personal experience, I can look at questions regarding trans-rights and protections and policies from a distance and more objectively. I think when we talk about issues that impact our children directly (and negatively), objectivity understandably goes out the window.

[Kurth]

It's easier to step back and resist the urge to call a spade a spade when you're not close to folks in the demographic groups being actively harmed by MAGA.

Just a friendly PSA: You might want to retire the emphasized idiom in that quote. While it’s origins are pure, it’s one of those idioms that has become racialized over time.

Of course, you could stand your ground and try to reclaim it, but some people might mistake you for a bad person for your continued usage.

The choice is yours!

Didn't know that history of the phrase. Thanks.

As to the rest of your last two posts, man, not sure what to say other than you're smarter than that. You seem to be injecting nuance where there is none for sake of argument. If it's really your position that it is not an objective truth that Trump's a garbage human, or that voting for him is objectively bad for the country, or that anyone who's listened to anything he's said in the past several years should know better, then I've misjudged you.

It's really not that complicated. Even Blackhawk's continued reiteration of the bubbled nature of the rural Midwest is tiring. It's no excuse anymore. We're not talking about high-minded disagreement about complex policy, or the history of a particular idiom, where it could be reasonable for folks to not know better. We're talking about on-the-surface, immediately obvious horribleness. Especially to a mass of humans purporting to follow the teachings of Jesus.

And YK, what a wonderful freedom you have, to not have those close to you be harmed by the GOP's policies and goals, such that you can choose to go with the flow with a clear conscience. I say this genuinely, as I can't imagine being in that position.

You may well have over estimated my intelligence, but setting that aside, I think we have a fundamental disagreement here. I agree whole-heartedly that Trump is a garbage person and that voting for him is objectively bad for the country, and I don't see much nuance there. But when we turn to the question of why people support him and what that says about them, I think there's an incredible amount of nuance and, yes, complexity.

I don't believe "absolute truths" offer much guidance in figuring out what to make of the mass of humans that support Trump.

[Edited to add: I also don't believe this is a useful or productive conversation. As I've stated many times before, there's nothing more important to this country right now than ensuring that Trump is not elected. Nothing. When those on the left start spinning up about how awful the "garbage people" are who support Trump, I think it's counterproductive.]

[Unagi]

If I had a transgender child who was being targeted by the anti-trans hate we’re seeing from the MAGA crowd and the right-wing FOX propaganda machine, I think I’d probably be hard pressed to not see some absolute truths about the situation.

Okay, and so... how do you feel about that exact same thing when you just know that one of these transgender children simply exists, but isn't yours? I don't understand the qualifier.

I don't understand how you don't understand the qualifier. Personal experience matters. A lot. Thinking about a transgender child in the abstract is not the same thing as thinking about a specific transgender child that you know, and it's a world apart from thinking about your own transgender child.

I don't have a transgender kid myself. I can and do empathize with them (and their parents), but I don't think for a second that I'm going to experience the same overwhelming feelings I imagine I would for my own child. Without the personal experience, I can look at questions regarding trans-rights and protections and policies from a distance and more objectively. I think when we talk about issues that impact our children directly (and negatively), objectivity understandably goes out the window.

I, obviously, understand that you aren't in my shoes and that we will have some different opinions on things.

And it's certainly fair and honest to express "Without the personal experience, I can look at questions regarding trans-rights and protections and policies from a distance and more objectively."

So, objectively speaking, when you see the anti-trans hate we’re seeing from the MAGA crowd and the right-wing FOX propaganda machine, do you see any absolute truths about the situation?

Assuming you have some hypothetical list of truths about the situation, do you think any of them would overlap with the ones that I would list? Because I'm not asking anyone to adopt my specific list - I am asking them to have their own and to share them with others.

So if someone felt the anti-trans hate we're seeing from the MAGA crowd and the right-wing FOX propaganda machine (i.e. the GOP) has it's merits - well I guess I'm not asking that person to do much at all...
But if you find some of it undebatably 'bad' (is it ok if I say that word?) - I am simply asking that people make those arguments, that they already harbor, with the people they can most influence, tailored to their situation.

[Carpet_pissr]

Possibly the most important thread in the history of OO. This really gets to the heart of the probable existential crisis our country is facing right now - it affects most if not all of us personally, and our children. Literally the future of the country.

I'll chime in to heartily support BH's thinking on this, and reiterate that "these people" - the "others (to many of us)", "the bad people", the "good people doing bad things", whatever you want to call them: I can assure you that MANY, MANY of this group of people, are not going to change their minds because of a conversation. As BH said, because of their particular media diet, they are the "good" people - why would they want to switch to what they perceive as the morally "bad" side? They feel JUST as morally right about things as we on here feel about our positions. They are being fed a steady, carefully curated diet of information as BH mentions...like a top class sales seminar...they get bombarded with hours, days of confirmation that 1. they are in the right and 2. here's what you might hear "out there" when talking to other people and 3. Here's what to think and how to deal with those "wrong" ideas. And for the ones that are not well-versed, well-indoctrinated in the Truth of Fox News, see below:

Somewhat related, I think I've mentioned it before, but I highly recommend anyone in here to check out "Hidden Brain" podcasts about this very subject. They go into WHY people can't simply be talked out of what are obviously bad or self-destructive, or whatever behaviors with reason or logic or even compassion. They believe stupid/bad/horrible things to be true in a large part because they WANT them to be true. They NEED them to be true (for a number of different reasons). Hidden Brain uses a couple of amazing examples of how smart, well-educated people can fall into these mental traps as well. It's way beyond "they are stupid, so they will fall for anything". Much more an emotional response than an intellectual one.

[Blackhawk]

If you want to look for something to blame, look at a society that doesn't encourage or teach people to discriminate information.

We are society. How do you expect anyone to encourage or teach people to discriminate information if we can't talk to people we care about, about the things that need to be talked about? Tears? Sign-language? Broken noses? I'm literally saying we need to talk to the people we know. There should be no pushback.

Did I argue with that? I was talking about what I see as part of the nature of the problem. I was talking about the underlying philosophy of blame that both sides now seem to be embracing. I wasn't suggesting or denying any particular approach to solving the problem.

Understanding the nature of a problem (both 'theirs' and 'ours') is the precursor to addressing the problem, and that's the only angle I was working.

[YellowKing]

I sort of resent being told that somehow I'm sitting in some ivory tower untouched by GOP policies, so I have some sort of luxury to ignore those who are voting for Trump. I have friends that are transgender, I have friends in the LGBTQ community, I have a daughter that goes to school and gets 3-4 shooting threats a year, the same daughter that will be impacted by abortion policy, and I have a son who I don't want told what books he can and can't read. And as I've pointed out before, of some on the GOP side had their way my wife and kids wouldn't even be here right now, because they would have outlawed the abortion of her ectopic pregnancy.

Now granted, I'm a hell of a lot less impacted than a lot of people, but I think it's completely asinine to destroy relationships with people that I'm not going to change in order to attempt some fool's errand of magically changing their mind through "conversation." You're living in a fantasy land if you think you can sit down and convince an 82 year old woman to change the way she's voted for the last 60+ years. And do it in such a way that she's still going to talk to you and come over for Thanksgiving dinner.

It's also completely ignoring the much more realistic methods of producing positive change - getting out the vote, supporting candidates whose policies you agree with, leading by example, etc. Removing negativity from my life does not mean I can't produce positive change, and yes even have conversations with people in a civilized manner.

At any rate, I'm kind of done with this particular conversation. All it's doing is producing the exact kind of negativity I've been trying to avoid, and among friends no less. We're all on the same side here.

[Blackhawk]

I think it's also very presumptive to assume that you know how each person is impacted based purely on their online presence.

[YellowKing]

I realize my previous post comes off sounding a bit angry and directed, but no offense meant to anyone. It's just frustration with the predicament we all find ourselves in these days. This is one of the few "safe spaces" I can release that frustration and talk to like-minded people that understand it.

[malchior]

[Edited to add: I also don't believe this is a useful or productive conversation. As I've stated many times before, there's nothing more important to this country right now than ensuring that Trump is not elected. Nothing. When those on the left start spinning up about how awful the "garbage people" are who support Trump, I think it's counterproductive.]

FWIW I don't see how you can separate the many garbage people from their garbage lord. He has gotten to where he was because this country had a long festering deep well of darkness and lots of institutional and societal rot that enabled him. If it wasn't him I don't have any reasonable expectation it wouldn't have been some other piece of shit. Our country was sick before Trump. If he dropped dead it will continue to be sick.

[Blackhawk]

[Edited to add: I also don't believe this is a useful or productive conversation. As I've stated many times before, there's nothing more important to this country right now than ensuring that Trump is not elected. Nothing. When those on the left start spinning up about how awful the "garbage people" are who support Trump, I think it's counterproductive.]

FWIW I don't see how you can separate the many garbage people from their garbage lord. He has gotten to where he was because this country had a long festering deep well of darkness and lots of institutional and societal rot that enabled him. If it wasn't him I don't have any reasonable expectation it wouldn't have been some other piece of shit. Our country was sick before Trump. If he dropped dead it will continue to be sick.

The problem is with lumping the ignorant in with the wilful before declaring them all 'garbage.' The ignorant can learn, change, and grow. It's not guaranteed, and it's not easy, but it's not impossible.

Unless someone declares them the enemy, of course.

[Blackhawk]

On your other point, though, I agree. Humans have a nasty streak. We look for excuses to exercise it. Far too often when that happens people blame the excuses, not the underlying nature (I see this a lot with atheists and religion.) If you get rid of the excuse, people will just find new excuses. It's futile to try and get past the issues that way.

[waitingtoconnect]

I still believe in the existence of absolute truths.

So much easier to figure out who’s good and who’s bad when you believe in the existence of absolute truths coupled with confidence in your ability to correctly discern those truths.

Yeah, thanks.

That wasn’t really meant to be snarky or flippant (well, maybe a little, and for that I apologize).

If I had a transgender child who was being targeted by the anti-trans hate we’re seeing from the MAGA crowd and the right-wing FOX propaganda machine, I think I’d probably be hard pressed to not see some absolute truths about the situation.

And, to be clear, I agree that there are absolute truths. I just try to resist believing in my ability to know their contours.

It’s not just transgender children. It’s against women, people of colour, interracial marriage, voting rights, etc achieved through gerrymandered districts where democracy exists only in name. In many nominally purple states like Wisconsin this is already done.

Their electoral success comes from as with Brexit creating a referendum on the past and a distorted electoral system that can be gamed.

[Unagi]

Now granted, I'm a hell of a lot less impacted than a lot of people, but I think it's completely asinine to destroy relationships with people that I'm not going to change in order to attempt some fool's errand of magically changing their mind through "conversation." You're living in a fantasy land if you think you can sit down and convince an 82-year-old woman to change the way she's voted for the last 60+ years. And do it in such a way that she's still going to talk to you and come over for Thanksgiving dinner.

I sincerely and honestly respect and most genuinely like you YK. I've shared as much with you in the past. And I'm upset with myself if I've upset you.

But, I think the truth of it is that you are indeed a hell of a lot less impacted than me: I couldn't possibly have Grandma over for Thanksgiving dinner if she supports/would again vote for Donald Trump - not even remotely.

And I also think you would agree with my choice to support my child over my beloved mother's politics - if that were to be your situation as well.

I don't want to piss you off and get into the weeds on this. But I will only push back on that "if you don't think you can convince a person to change lanes" is there a shot at asking them to simply "pull over" and maybe let the next generation of voters set the stage for their own futures? I think appealing to older people's mortal resolve can sometimes prove to be an effective tool NOT to have them give up, but to actually maybe even re-think their own philosophy. Do they really need to dictate the future of the generation that's 3 generations below them?