All Things DeSantis

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malchior
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Re: All Things DeSantis

Post by malchior »

Unagi wrote: Sat Mar 04, 2023 11:52 am Is there any chance that Disney just packs up? Or are they too committed?
Zero chance. Billions of dollars in infrastructure are in place. I'm also pretty sure Disney's lawyers can stomp these fascist fuckers in court if they actually need to.
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Re: All Things DeSantis

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Although he has been on many, many ballots, this could end up being the first time that Mickey Mouse actually wins an election.
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Re: All Things DeSantis

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Blackhawk wrote: Sat Mar 04, 2023 12:06 pm Although he has been on many, many ballots, this could end up being the first time that Mickey Mouse actually wins an election.
:clap:
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Re: All Things DeSantis

Post by GreenGoo »

malchior wrote: Sat Mar 04, 2023 12:05 pm
Unagi wrote: Sat Mar 04, 2023 11:52 am Is there any chance that Disney just packs up? Or are they too committed?
Zero chance. Billions of dollars in infrastructure are in place. I'm also pretty sure Disney's lawyers can stomp these fascist fuckers in court if they actually need to.
Expect record contributions to DeSantis' opponents in the coming years. Both above and below board.
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Re: All Things DeSantis

Post by Smoove_B »

GreenGoo wrote: Sat Mar 04, 2023 12:40 pm Expect record contributions to DeSantis' opponents in the coming years. Both above and below board.
As a reminder from 2022:
Disney donated some $4.8 million to Florida candidates in the 2020 election cycle, campaign finance reports show. Disney during the 2020 election cycle donated $913,000 to the Republican Party of Florida and another $586,000 to GOP Senate campaigns, records show. The company also donated $313,000 to the Florida Democratic Party and $50,000 directly to DeSantis.

But donations like these, at least for the time being, are expected to come to a halt.
I'd love to know if that last sentence held true and if it in any way is influencing what's happening now.
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Re: All Things DeSantis

Post by malchior »

If you have access to the Washington Post - the underlying piece by Sargent does a great job pointing out what is happening. These are FASCIST book bans that are about creating others out of gay and trans people to justify authoritarian action. This is how fascism was implemented in the late 20s, 30s, and 40s. And I'm not even talking figuratively. This is how it happened. It is here and "we" need to stop pretending this is a normal process.

I'm honestly confused how we haven't seen a raft of lawsuits to try to block these activities. I've said it in the past - we're sleepwalking into authoritarianism and I don't get how people don't see it. Where is the ACLU? Where is DOJ? Where are concerned parents? No one seems to be reacting appropriately to this clear attack on our society.

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Re: All Things DeSantis

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I think the lawsuits are coming, FWIW. Unfortunately DeSantis has some evil but smart people working for him, so the lawsuits are challenging - they write laws that are intentionally vague but with harsh penalties, so that when a district gets knocked for going too far, they can say "that's not what we meant, that district is applying the law wrong". One can sue the district, but that (probably) leaves the law in place. You sue the state officials, and they argue that they aren't responsible for the specific things that you are suing about.

Anyway, I can't say I know what the ACLU is planning, but it's challenging enough that they need to do their homework before rushing into a lawsuit.
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malchior
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Re: All Things DeSantis

Post by malchior »

Yeah I appreciate those issues but I can't help but note that ACLU Florida signaled their intention to fight the AP African American history curricula issues contemporaneous with the news reports. They have otherwise been unusually quiet as a huge attack on civil liberties is playing out. I'm not getting it. Lawsuits aren't the only tools in the toolbox. As far as I know the White House has been silent on this as well.

I guess folks are waiting for enough evidence to pile up which would be a reasonable approach if we had time for it. It however seems like the attack on our democracy is at least 5 steps ahead of the defenses at all times. I guess what I'm wondering is whether we'll be able to mount any sort of timely defense to all this if there is no line to how far they'll go.
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Re: All Things DeSantis

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malchior wrote: Fri Mar 10, 2023 12:48 pm Yeah I appreciate those issues but I can't help but note that ACLU Florida signaled their intention to fight the AP African American history curricula issues contemporaneous with the news reports. They have otherwise been unusually quiet as a huge attack on civil liberties is playing out. I'm not getting it. Lawsuits aren't the only tools in the toolbox. As far as I know the White House has been silent on this as well.

I guess folks are waiting for enough evidence to pile up which would be a reasonable approach if we had time for it. It however seems like the attack on our democracy is at least 5 steps ahead of the defenses at all times. I guess what I'm wondering is whether we'll be able to mount any sort of timely defense to all this if there is no line to how far they'll go.
I'm not asking to be snarky, and maybe it's a dumb question, but what would the basis of the lawsuit be? Aren't the content of public school curriculum and the inventory of public libraries generally governed by local community standards? My understanding is that these laws are being used by local communities and implemented widely to remove any material the community (meaning whoever they elected to represent them) feel is age inappropriate. How should the ACLU be getting after this?

I just pulled up a list of books removed by a random school district and randomly picked one of the books I had never heard of before: All American Boys, by Bendan Reynolds and Jason Kiely. Here's the synopsis from Amazon:
A 2016 Coretta Scott King Author Honor book, and recipient of the Walter Dean Myers Award for Outstanding Children’s Literature.

In this Coretta Scott King Honor Award–winning novel, two teens—one black, one white—grapple with the repercussions of a single violent act that leaves their school, their community, and, ultimately, the country bitterly divided by racial tension.

A bag of chips. That’s all sixteen-year-old Rashad is looking for at the corner bodega. What he finds instead is a fist-happy cop, Paul Galluzzo, who mistakes Rashad for a shoplifter, mistakes Rashad’s pleadings that he’s stolen nothing for belligerence, mistakes Rashad’s resistance to leave the bodega as resisting arrest, mistakes Rashad’s every flinch at every punch the cop throws as further resistance and refusal to STAY STILL as ordered. But how can you stay still when someone is pounding your face into the concrete pavement?

There were witnesses: Quinn Collins—a varsity basketball player and Rashad’s classmate who has been raised by Paul since his own father died in Afghanistan—and a video camera. Soon the beating is all over the news and Paul is getting threatened with accusations of prejudice and racial brutality. Quinn refuses to believe that the man who has basically been his savior could possibly be guilty. But then Rashad is absent. And absent again. And again. And the basketball team—half of whom are Rashad’s best friends—start to take sides. As does the school. And the town. Simmering tensions threaten to explode as Rashad and Quinn are forced to face decisions and consequences they had never considered before.

Written in tandem by two award-winning authors, this four-starred reviews tour de force shares the alternating perspectives of Rashad and Quinn as the complications from that single violent moment, the type taken from the headlines, unfold and reverberate to highlight an unwelcome truth.
It gets 4.5 stars out of 5 based on nearly 5K reviews. 80% 5 stars; 12% 4 stars; 4% 3 stars; 1% 2 stars; and 2% 1 star. Here are a sampling of the 1 star reviews:
Bought this book to read as our school is requiring 9th grade students to read it. This book encourages drugs, violence, racism and profound hatred of law enforcement. Currently being challenged. Parents please pay attention to what your children read in school. This is fictitious c**p that does not teach our children ANYTHING! Only promotes the awful happenings of our world today. Schools are for enrichment. Book offers no resolution to current problems nor does it correct anything wrong in the story.
I must say this review is not about the content of the book but rather a warning about its language. I clearly should have read the reviews that said that this book is for OLDER teenagers. It said it was awarded a “Children’s Literature” award, so I figured I could get it for my mature 11 year old who reads advanced books. Well....no...even if I were comfortable with discussing the subject of the book with him, I couldn’t believe the amount of bad language. I don’t need to hear about “they hear it at school anyway”, I have two older high schoolers as well, but there is absolutely no need to include so many cuss words in a book for youth.
This book is a horrendous piece of propaganda. There is no nuance. None.

I tried to use this bok for teaching inferencing to a high school class. There is almost nothing to infer because the authors think the audience is too ignorant for that. This is all telling and no showing. SKIP!
This book is a circle jerk of the social justice community. The Plot is nonexistent and the characters are dull and the writing is terrible with how the grown men try to sound like kids when they write but the fail miserably. Ill go to craigslist next because they have fire kindling for cheaper there.
Trys to Indoctrinate younger children. The fact that it won't award makes me sick. Has really bad language
What exactly is the ACLU supposed to do if a community has decided (even if it's a vocal minority in the community) that it doesn't want a book like this in its local public library or taught in its schools? We can disagree with that all we want - it's fucking ignorant - but isn't that their right? And if you don't like it, isn't your only real option to lobby for change within the community or move?
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Re: All Things DeSantis

Post by malchior »

FWIW I'm only pointing at the ACLU because I just expect them to have a strong opinion on the issues here. They've been strangely silent on several authoritarian adjacent issues and instead they've been waging general culture war stuff that feels like a distraction from the real danger. At least that's what I see.

Anyway, I'd begin by pointing at the case law around previous book bans that were rooted in 1st Amendment jurisprudence. This issue has been tread before from several angles. For example we have, Board of Education, Island Trees Union Free School District v. Pico, 457 U.S. 853 (1982). It is probably guiding to some extent.

One theory I can think of off the top of my head is that the vague and overbroad definitions enable activity contrary to the spirit of the 1st Amendment. That may be one of the law's weakness. It certainly appears that the law allows for widespread abuses that run counter to the established jurisprudence. But then again SCOTUS is off the rails too and might allow it. One can't be sure.

It also might be a stretch to describe these as community standards. As described in the Washington Post piece, the 20 books removed from one system that were written by Jodi Picoult were banned stemming from a SINGLE PARENT'S complaint about them. Call me crazy but that is not "a community" by any means. It's also fairly specific to the author's entire catalogue which raises additional suspicions to me. If there was a specific book with specific objectional content maybe they could defend it on some narrow read. The sweep of it makes it stand out to me that it is indiscriminate. That's the trouble with these new attacks on our society. They are intentionally designed to create leverage for authoritarian action meant to push for sweeping reactionary changes.

Edit: And they are succeeding for now. This is red alarm time IMO but I'm sure it'll be normalized away. I have little doubt people are going to be looking back at us and wondering how we let all this happen in broad daylight.
Relying on cases such as West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette (1943) and Tinker v. Des Moines Independent Community School District (1969), Justice Brennan’s opinion reaffirmed that though “local school boards have broad discretion in the management of school affairs,” that discretion “must be exercised in a manner that comports with the transcendent imperatives of the First Amendment.”

Justices said school boards could not remove books to suppress ideas
On the principle that “the Constitution protects the right to receive information and ideas,” he concluded that the removal of books from the shelves of a school library implicates students’ First Amendment rights in part because of “the special characteristics of the school library.” Justice Brennan then concluded that school officials may not exercise their discretion to remove books from a school library based on “narrowly partisan or political” grounds, because doing so would amount to an “official suppression of ideas.”

In a concurrence, Justice Blackmun rejected the notion that a school library was distinct from the school itself and also disagreed with the notion that students had a First Amendment “right to receive” in the context of a public school. He agreed, however, that school officials’ removal of books “for the purpose of restricting access to the political ideas, or social perspectives discussed in them, when that action is motivated simply by the officials’ disapproval of the ideas involved” was a violation of the First Amendment.
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Re: All Things DeSantis

Post by LawBeefaroni »

Don't know if this belongs here or in Civil War II.


Desantis' Army
As lawmakers in Tallahassee consider Gov. Ron DeSantis’ budget proposal this session, they will be also be deciding whether to approve a steep funding increase establishing Florida’s own branch of the military.

DeSantis announced the revival of the Florida State Guard last June.

The state guard was dismantled at the end of World War II.

“The Florida State Guard will be comprised of Floridians, and it will be assigned to assist and help only Floridians,” DeSantis said in a news conference last June. “It will not be subject to be mobilized by the federal government, and the federal government cannot impose policies or penalties on the Florida State Guard.

DeSantis claimed the Florida National Guard, which is governed by the federal government and was credited for helping rescue people after hurricanes Ian and Nicole last year, was not providing enough resources to the state.
Would it be too much to hope that they don't wear brown shirts?
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malchior
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Re: All Things DeSantis

Post by malchior »

LawBeefaroni wrote: Fri Mar 10, 2023 5:47 pm Don't know if this belongs here or in Civil War II.
This feels like the right spot. This is about him cosplaying a strong man versus actually being one to bolster 2024/2028 chances.
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Re: All Things DeSantis

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Image
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Re: All Things DeSantis

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and it will be assigned to assist and help only Floridians,
Up next: legally defining how someone is designated a Floridian.
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Re: All Things DeSantis

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Easy! They live in Florida and look like God-King DeSantis.
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Re: All Things DeSantis

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And I just learned that "Let Us Alone" is not a typo and was an mid-19th century pro slavery state motto in Florida. Cool.
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Re: All Things DeSantis

Post by LordMortis »

malchior wrote: Fri Mar 10, 2023 6:21 pm And I just learned that "Let Us Alone" is not a typo and was an mid-19th century pro slavery state motto in Florida. Cool.
I had to look it up too TIL the same.
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Re: All Things DeSantis

Post by malchior »

I should just assume it is coded white supremacy. It often is. But then again I'm told we're not a white supremacist society...you know despite all the results.
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Re: All Things DeSantis

Post by Kurth »

malchior wrote: Fri Mar 10, 2023 4:43 pm FWIW I'm only pointing at the ACLU because I just expect them to have a strong opinion on the issues here. They've been strangely silent on several authoritarian adjacent issues and instead they've been waging general culture war stuff that feels like a distraction from the real danger. At least that's what I see.

Anyway, I'd begin by pointing at the case law around previous book bans that were rooted in 1st Amendment jurisprudence. This issue has been tread before from several angles. For example we have, Board of Education, Island Trees Union Free School District v. Pico, 457 U.S. 853 (1982). It is probably guiding to some extent.

One theory I can think of off the top of my head is that the vague and overbroad definitions enable activity contrary to the spirit of the 1st Amendment. That may be one of the law's weakness. It certainly appears that the law allows for widespread abuses that run counter to the established jurisprudence. But then again SCOTUS is off the rails too and might allow it. One can't be sure.

It also might be a stretch to describe these as community standards. As described in the Washington Post piece, the 20 books removed from one system that were written by Jodi Picoult were banned stemming from a SINGLE PARENT'S complaint about them. Call me crazy but that is not "a community" by any means. It's also fairly specific to the author's entire catalogue which raises additional suspicions to me. If there was a specific book with specific objectional content maybe they could defend it on some narrow read. The sweep of it makes it stand out to me that it is indiscriminate. That's the trouble with these new attacks on our society. They are intentionally designed to create leverage for authoritarian action meant to push for sweeping reactionary changes.

Edit: And they are succeeding for now. This is red alarm time IMO but I'm sure it'll be normalized away. I have little doubt people are going to be looking back at us and wondering how we let all this happen in broad daylight.
Relying on cases such as West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette (1943) and Tinker v. Des Moines Independent Community School District (1969), Justice Brennan’s opinion reaffirmed that though “local school boards have broad discretion in the management of school affairs,” that discretion “must be exercised in a manner that comports with the transcendent imperatives of the First Amendment.”

Justices said school boards could not remove books to suppress ideas
On the principle that “the Constitution protects the right to receive information and ideas,” he concluded that the removal of books from the shelves of a school library implicates students’ First Amendment rights in part because of “the special characteristics of the school library.” Justice Brennan then concluded that school officials may not exercise their discretion to remove books from a school library based on “narrowly partisan or political” grounds, because doing so would amount to an “official suppression of ideas.”

In a concurrence, Justice Blackmun rejected the notion that a school library was distinct from the school itself and also disagreed with the notion that students had a First Amendment “right to receive” in the context of a public school. He agreed, however, that school officials’ removal of books “for the purpose of restricting access to the political ideas, or social perspectives discussed in them, when that action is motivated simply by the officials’ disapproval of the ideas involved” was a violation of the First Amendment.
I'd be hesitant to put much faith in Pico. I wasn't familiar with the case before, but reading it now (as well as the analysis in your link above) makes me doubt it stands as much of a First Amendment bulwark against DeSantis and his book-banning minions.

The actual holding of that case is largely procedural. The trial court (EDNY) dismissed the case on summary judgment on the basis that the First Amendment was not implicated in the complaint against the school board (located in the middle of Long Island). The Supreme Court opinion summarized the procedural history:
"[According to the District Court] the board acted not on religious principles but on its conservative educational philosophy, and on its belief that the nine books removed from the school library and curriculum were irrelevant, vulgar, immoral, and in bad taste, making them educationally unsuitable for the district's junior and senior high school students."

With this factual premise as its background, the court rejected respondents' contention that their First Amendment rights had been infringed by the Board's actions. Noting that statutes, history, and precedent had vested local school boards with a broad discretion to formulate educational policy,[13] the court concluded that it should not intervene in " `the daily operations of school systems' " unless " `basic constitutional values' " were " `sharply implicate[d],' "[14] and determined *860 that the conditions for such intervention did not exist in the present case. Acknowledging that the "removal [of the books] . . . clearly was content-based," the court nevertheless found no constitutional violation of the requisite magnitude:

"The board has restricted access only to certain books which the board believed to be, in essence, vulgar. While removal of such books from a school library may. . . reflect a misguided educational philosophy, it does not constitute a sharp and direct infringement of any first amendment right." Id., at 397.
The court of appeals (2nd Circuit) reversed:
A three-judge panel of the United States Court of Appeals for the Second Circuit reversed the judgment of the District Court, and remanded the action for a trial on respondents' allegations. 638 F. 2d 404 (1980). Each judge on the panel filed a separate opinion. Delivering the judgment of the court, Judge Sifton treated the case as involving "an unusual and irregular intervention in the school libraries' operations by persons not routinely concerned with such matters," and concluded that petitioners were obliged to demonstrate a reasonable basis for interfering with respondents' First Amendment rights. Id., at 414-415. He then determined that, at least at the summary judgment stage, petitioners had not offered sufficient justification for their action,[15] and concluded that respondents "should have . . . been offered an opportunity to persuade a finder of fact that the ostensible justifications for [petitioners'] actions . . . were simply pretexts for the suppression of free speech." Id., at 417.[16] Judge Newman *861 concurred in the result. Id., at 432-438. He viewed the case as turning on the contested factual issue of whether petitioners' removal decision was motivated by a justifiable desire to remove books containing vulgarities and sexual explicitness, or rather by an impermissible desire to suppress ideas. Id., at 436-437.[17] We granted certiorari, 454 U. S. 891 (1981).
But it's important to note, this wasn't a slam dunk from any perspective. You've got a 3 judge panel where none of the judges agreed with the others sufficiently to sign on to their opinion, instead, each choosing to file their own separate opinion.

It didn't get any more clear cut when the case got to the Supreme Court, either, as spelled out by the analysis you linked to:
On the basis of the factual disputes in the record about whether the school board members had removed the books because of their vulgarity or to suppress the books’ ideas, Brennan, Marshall, Stevens, and Blackmun voted to affirm the appellate court’s decision to reverse the district court’s grant of summary judgment.

The fifth vote to affirm the court of appeals was provided by Justice Byron R. White, who concurred in the judgment but expressly disavowed stating any views on the First Amendment question. Because of this unusual breakdown in the votes of the justices, the legal holding of Pico consists simply of Justice White’s very limited opinion.
And limited is an appropriate way to characterize what Justice White had to say:
The District Court found that the books were removed from the school library because the school board believed them "to be, in essence, vulgar." 474 F. Supp. 387, 397 (EDNY 1979). Both Court of Appeals judges in the majority concluded, however, that there was a material issue of fact that precluded summary judgment sought by petitioners. The unresolved factual issue, as I understand it, is the reason or reasons underlying the school board's removal of the books. I am not inclined to disagree with the Court of Appeals on such a fact-bound issue and hence concur in the judgment of affirmance. Presumably this will result in a trial and the making of a full record and findings on the critical issues.

The plurality seems compelled to go further and issue a dissertation on the extent to which the First Amendment limits the discretion of the school board to remove books from the school library. I see no necessity for doing so at this point. When findings of fact and conclusions of law are made by the District Court, that may end the case. If, for example, the District Court concludes after a trial that the books were removed for their vulgarity, there may be no appeal. In any event, if there is an appeal, if there is dissatisfaction with the subsequent Court of Appeals' judgment, and if certiorari is sought and granted, there will be time enough to address the First Amendment issues that may then be presented.
So, only 4 of 9 Supreme Court justices on the liberal Burger court joined the plurality decision in Pico that suggests DeSantis and the school boards operating on the basis of his stupid FL book banning laws are running afoul of the Constitution. 1 of those justices (White) joined the plurality, but only on the result and explicitly rejected the First Amendment analysis, and the other 4 justices dissented:
All four dissenting justices wrote opinions attacking Justice Brennan’s views. The dissents argued that removing the books from the school libraries did not implicate any First Amendment rights because the books were available elsewhere; the “right to receive information” does not apply in the context of a school; and federal courts should leave educational policy decisions to local government officials subject to democratic accountability.
Given the makeup of the current court, does this seem like a Supreme Court that is going to go further than the Burger court was willing to go in defense of the First Amendment?
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Re: All Things DeSantis

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Isgrimnur wrote: Fri Mar 10, 2023 6:13 pm Image
Florida Man going to have to watch out for those long knives at Malargo.
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Re: All Things DeSantis

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Now all he needs is a natural (or unnatural) disaster.
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Re: All Things DeSantis

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Train derailments are so hot right now.
It's almost as if people are the problem.
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Re: All Things DeSantis

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Isgrimnur wrote: Fri Mar 10, 2023 6:13 pm Image
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You can stay there and I'm sure you will find
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Re: All Things DeSantis

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In case anyone is wondering how UK press is framing this:
Given all of this, it’s a scary thought that he’s just getting started.

That’s why it’s appalling to see the media lavish him with so much fawning coverage. Fox News has put its calamitous love affair with Donald Trump on ice while it swoons over his younger rival.

DeSantis enjoys glowing treatment from the mainstream press, too. All too predictably, many of the headlines from his recent State of the State speech not only centered on presidential politics but also magnified his boasts. Here’s a skepticism-free example from CNBC:

“‘You ain’t seen nothing yet’: Florida Governor Ron DeSantis touts state record and fuels 2024 speculation.”

The media should be delving into the substance of that record, including the kitchen-table economic issues that have nothing to do with performative anti-woke nonsense. Instead of letting DeSantis play at will on his favorite field of divisive social issues, reporters should dig into his war on teachers’ unions, like trying to limit how they can collect dues and where they conduct union business. Reporters might even point out that this runs counter to Republican claims that they are now the workers’ party.
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One of the smartest things I read last week was a journalism manifesto in six words from NYU professor Jay Rosen: Not the odds, but the stakes. This sums up the organizing principle he recommends the media adopt for the political cycle ahead; such coverage would emphasize not the horserace but the consequences for our democracy.

With DeSantis, as with Trump, those stakes are incredibly high. Especially if his threat is true and we ain’t seen nothing yet.
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Re: All Things DeSantis

Post by Carpet_pissr »

Smoove_B wrote: Fri Mar 10, 2023 6:16 pm
and it will be assigned to assist and help only Floridians,
Up next: legally defining how someone is designated a Floridian.
Aww, that's cute! Still pretending about some semblance of rule of law, are we? :P

I would bet a lot of money it will be "solely at the discretion of the Governor" or something very similar.

If this were some unknown state senator bringing up a bill to vote on this in say...North Dakota, I wouldn't bat an eye....but if this actually passes...that is not a great omen IMO. I would amost say "And so it begins" :(
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Re: All Things DeSantis

Post by malchior »

Smoove_B wrote: Sat Mar 11, 2023 1:55 pm In case anyone is wondering how UK press is framing this:
Given all of this, it’s a scary thought that he’s just getting started.

That’s why it’s appalling to see the media lavish him with so much fawning coverage. Fox News has put its calamitous love affair with Donald Trump on ice while it swoons over his younger rival.

DeSantis enjoys glowing treatment from the mainstream press, too. All too predictably, many of the headlines from his recent State of the State speech not only centered on presidential politics but also magnified his boasts. Here’s a skepticism-free example from CNBC:

“‘You ain’t seen nothing yet’: Florida Governor Ron DeSantis touts state record and fuels 2024 speculation.”

The media should be delving into the substance of that record, including the kitchen-table economic issues that have nothing to do with performative anti-woke nonsense. Instead of letting DeSantis play at will on his favorite field of divisive social issues, reporters should dig into his war on teachers’ unions, like trying to limit how they can collect dues and where they conduct union business. Reporters might even point out that this runs counter to Republican claims that they are now the workers’ party.
Closing observation:
One of the smartest things I read last week was a journalism manifesto in six words from NYU professor Jay Rosen: Not the odds, but the stakes. This sums up the organizing principle he recommends the media adopt for the political cycle ahead; such coverage would emphasize not the horserace but the consequences for our democracy.

With DeSantis, as with Trump, those stakes are incredibly high. Especially if his threat is true and we ain’t seen nothing yet.
FWIW that is published in the UK but it's at its core pure Margaret Sullivan. She is one of the most ethical American journalist's of the modern era. A good piece and it's unfortunate there aren't more Margaret Sullivan's instead of quasi-unethical access journalists like Maggie Haberman.
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Kurth
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Re: All Things DeSantis

Post by Kurth »

Well, leave it to Gail Collins and Brett Stephens to engage in this inanity:
Bret: The stronger case is the one in Georgia. Then again, is a jury in Georgia going to vote unanimously to convict the former president? Color me skeptical. At this point, the most realistic way for the country to be done with Trump is if Ron DeSantis or some other Republican defeats him, fair and square, in the race for the G.O.P. nomination. Which is why you’re strongly rooting for DeSantis to jump in the race, am I right?

Gail: Oh, Bret, it’s so hard to admit I’d rather see Trump as the nominee than DeSantis, but it’s true. I would. Rather have a terrible Republican with no real fundamental values than one who has strong but terrible commitments and is a genuine obsessive on social issues like abortion rights.

Bret: That sound you just heard was my jaw hitting the floor. But I’m giving you full points for total honesty.

Gail: Plus, if we have to live through two years of presidential politics featuring Joe Biden on one side, I’d rather have the awful, wrong-thinking Republican who isn’t also incredibly boring. Is that shallow?

Bret: Other than for the entertainment value, do you prefer to have Trump as the nominee because you think he has no chance of winning the election? You could very well be right. Then again, I remember how that worked out in 2016.
WTF is wrong with Gail Collins? :x

Cue malchior with “blah, blah, blah, serious people, blah, blah, blah.” :D
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Re: All Things DeSantis

Post by malchior »

Kurth wrote: Mon Mar 13, 2023 12:03 pmCue malchior with “blah, blah, blah, serious people, blah, blah, blah.” :D
I mean if the shoe fits. :)

Still their weekly chats are eyeroll inducing. Stephens is a lightweight and it's weird how Collins indulges his bullshit on a regular basis. In the end Collins (and Stephens) is weighing what ultimately is an academic exercise in terrible choices. I don't particularly care which one anyone picks since there are serious real downsides on either side. Or frankly any Republican. We're at the point where each successive Republican administration will probably push us closer to whatever the end state of this system is.
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Re: All Things DeSantis

Post by YellowKing »

Yeah a buddy of mine continues to give money to the Lincoln Project. He' s laying out a laundry list of reasons why voting for *those* Republicans is different because they're not #MAGA, they denounced Jan 6, etc. I'm like dude, why are you bending over backwards to not vote Democrat by trying to cherry pick these GOP candidates that don't have a chance in hell?

The party's gone. It's done. It's not coming back. But he's so set in his ways that "you can't vote for liberals" that he's twisting himself into knots to avoid voting for the people HE ACTUALLY AGREES WITH.
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Re: All Things DeSantis

Post by El Guapo »

YellowKing wrote: Mon Mar 13, 2023 1:20 pm Yeah a buddy of mine continues to give money to the Lincoln Project. He' s laying out a laundry list of reasons why voting for *those* Republicans is different because they're not #MAGA, they denounced Jan 6, etc. I'm like dude, why are you bending over backwards to not vote Democrat by trying to cherry pick these GOP candidates that don't have a chance in hell?

The party's gone. It's done. It's not coming back. But he's so set in his ways that "you can't vote for liberals" that he's twisting himself into knots to avoid voting for the people HE ACTUALLY AGREES WITH.
Which Republicans would he be voting for? I don't even know who would qualify - almost all the non-MAGAs have been driven out already.
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Re: All Things DeSantis

Post by YellowKing »

Yeah, that's what I asked. He's still under the delusion that somehow the #NeverTrumpers are going to make a comeback given enough grass roots fundraising.
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Re: All Things DeSantis

Post by malchior »

"breaks with Republicans".

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Re: All Things DeSantis

Post by LordMortis »

malchior wrote: Mon Mar 13, 2023 11:48 pm "breaks with Republicans". Appeals to MAGAts while allowing for speculation that pro Russian Floridan money launderers and organized crime can be appeased.
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Re: All Things DeSantis

Post by YellowKing »

I used to roll my eyes when people would say "this is the most important election of our lifetime" but in this case...
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Re: All Things DeSantis

Post by malchior »

It's like Office Space now. "So this election is the worst one of your life? Man that is so messed up". It is the basis of my belief the political situation has been escalating. We're now in a period where even policy positions that would have been recognizably crazy 5 years ago are mainstream ideas in one of our two political parties.
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Re: All Things DeSantis

Post by El Guapo »

YellowKing wrote: Tue Mar 14, 2023 8:35 am I used to roll my eyes when people would say "this is the most important election of our lifetime" but in this case...
What's depressing is that since we have major party that's fairly openly authoritarian / Orbanist in character, every election is going to be extremely high stakes. And realistically, while the GOP is paying an electoral price for their extremism, it's not enough to realistically keep them out of the presidency for all that long, even assuming no election stealing shenanigans. I doubt that we can keep the GOP out of the presidency for more than 1, *maybe* 2 more presidential elections.

We can hope that the GOP becomes more sane by the time that happens...but I'm not optimistic.
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Re: All Things DeSantis

Post by Isgrimnur »

YellowKing wrote: Tue Mar 14, 2023 8:35 am I used to roll my eyes when people would say "this is the most important election of our lifetime" but in this case...
It's almost as if people are the problem.
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Re: All Things DeSantis

Post by Smoove_B »

malchior wrote: Mon Mar 13, 2023 11:48 pm "breaks with Republicans".
Hey man, his opinion is just evolving.

Just so I'm clear, the members of the GOP that are currently voting to support Ukraine and/or not actively trying to stop funding that is going to Ukraine are RINOs now? That's the DeSantis position in 2023?
Maybe next year, maybe no go
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Re: All Things DeSantis

Post by Blackhawk »

Smoove_B wrote: Tue Mar 14, 2023 10:46 am
malchior wrote: Mon Mar 13, 2023 11:48 pm "breaks with Republicans".
Hey man, his opinion is just evolving.

Just so I'm clear, the members of the GOP that are currently voting to support Ukraine and/or not actively trying to stop funding that is going to Ukraine are RINOs now? That's the DeSantis position in 2023?
The terrifying thing is that it isn't impossible that the clueless masses will latch on to his narrative and put pressure on the rest of the GOP. It isn't terribly likely yet - he isn't Trump - but we've seen similar things happen because an extreme candidate took and absurd stance.
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Re: All Things DeSantis

Post by LawBeefaroni »

'Territorial dispute?"
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