Crew member fatally shot on set of Alec Baldwin movie

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Re: Crew member fatally shot on set of Alec Baldwin movie

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Wait, what?
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Re: Crew member fatally shot on set of Alec Baldwin movie

Post by Jeff V »

It is immaterial whether or not the prop master was in a union - either he did his job, or did not. The news reported this morning it is a long standing policy to forbid live ammo on the set.

I bet from now on, such things will be added in post production via CGI or sound effects.

And yes, the people who were shot seem like an odd target for even a fake shooting. And how did he manage to hit 2 people?

I'm interested in seeing how this investigation pans out. I would hope there's an explanation that doesn't hold Baldwin culpable but if it was live ammo in a prop, then someone is criminally negligent at the very least.
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Re: Crew member fatally shot on set of Alec Baldwin movie

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dbt1949 wrote: Fri Oct 22, 2021 6:41 pm The end result of all this is there was no malfunction of the gun and Alec Baldwin should not have been pointing the gun at someone. He should be prosecuted.
Not necessarily. Actors are not expected to be marksmen, and while they don't point guns at people, it's part of their job to point guns near people. If he was 30 or 40 feet away and misaligned the barrel by just a hair, it would be enough to point it a little too close. And many scenes are going to result in crossing people with the barrel.
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Re: Crew member fatally shot on set of Alec Baldwin movie

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Jeff V wrote: Fri Oct 22, 2021 8:34 pm And how did he manage to hit 2 people?
He hit the person who died in soft tissue, and the bullet continued through to the person behind her. Bullets tend to do that. More than one person has died when a bullet went through a target, through a wall, and into another person that nobody knew was even there.
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Re: Crew member fatally shot on set of Alec Baldwin movie

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I mean, I don't know anything specific, but it seems pretty obvious that it's at least possible he was (as mentioned way above) shooting the gun "at the camera", and the DoP and Director may very well be right in line with that exact angle for obvious reasons.

I mean it could clearly have happened a great number of ways, but when I heard it was the DoP that was shot that's what I pictured.
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Re: Crew member fatally shot on set of Alec Baldwin movie

Post by Jeff V »

Unagi wrote: Fri Oct 22, 2021 8:56 pm I mean, I don't know anything specific, but it seems pretty obvious that it's at least possible he was (as mentioned way above) shooting the gun "at the camera", and the DoP and Director may very well be right in line with that exact angle for obvious reasons.

I mean it could clearly have happened a great number of ways, but when I heard it was the DoP that was shot that's what I pictured.
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Re: Crew member fatally shot on set of Alec Baldwin movie

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stimpy wrote: Fri Oct 22, 2021 12:27 pm How would you certify that a round is a blank, other than shooting it?
Unload it, then reload it.

Basic gun safety rules: always assume gun is loaded UNLESS you personally verified otherwise // never point the gun at anything UNLESS you mean to destroy it
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Re: Crew member fatally shot on set of Alec Baldwin movie

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Alefroth wrote: Fri Oct 22, 2021 4:10 pm
Octavious wrote: Fri Oct 22, 2021 4:07 pm I only know of a few examples of this happening so I can see why it hasn't been a major point of concern for them. Considering how many movies are made a year with guns all over the place it's a super isolated issue. I would expect changes though due to the people involved aka super famous people. ;)
How many of those are already being done by CGI?
I had the impression that most guns seen fired in TV and movies these days have had the muzzle flashes and sound implemented in post-production. I mean, sure, you'll have a sound while firing blanks, but in all cases, you still need to replace it during post-production, and there's a whole art to sound in TV & movies.
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Re: Crew member fatally shot on set of Alec Baldwin movie

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I assume the main draw to use real guns with blanks is the cost of cgi and then the gun provides the actor with a kick-back affect for each shot, not just click click click.
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Re: Crew member fatally shot on set of Alec Baldwin movie

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If the prop master is in charge of the guns and he didn't check the guns then at least he should be fired and banned from his profession.
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Re: Crew member fatally shot on set of Alec Baldwin movie

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It appears that Baldwin had no reason to believe that the weapon was even loaded when it was handed to him.

Alec Baldwin told gun was safe before fatal shooting - court records
The gun that actor Alec Baldwin fired on set, killing a woman, was handed to him by a director who told him it was safe, court records show.

Assistant director Dave Halls did not know the prop contained live ammunition and indicated it was unloaded by shouting "cold gun!", the records say.
Meanwhile, the BBC has obtained a document showing which crew members were listed as scheduled to be on set that day.

It names a head armourer, the crew member responsible for checking firearms. Hannah Gutierrez Reed is in her twenties and, according to the LA Times, had recently worked in this role for the first time.
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Re: Crew member fatally shot on set of Alec Baldwin movie

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FWIW, they do use CGI. A lot. And even when they use real guns, they sometimes use CGI to 'enhance' the shots with bigger, brighter muzzle flash and even smoke. And they use a lot of fake guns that, if you saw them up close, would look like toys. A lot. And they use dummy guns for hero props - purely non-firing replicas meant to be viewed up close. A lot. And they use dummy (non-firing) rounds in scenes that show ammo/loading. Pretty much always. And sometimes they use real guns with blanks.

It all depends on the shot and the setting (for instance, you're much more likely to see pure CGI when there is a lot of gunfire (too hard to keep it safe), or when they're indoors, as it is much, much easier to do with a green screen.) Different scenes require different tools.

Go watch some clips of John Wick without the CGI added. You'll see Keanu running around in a green room flailing his arms and pretending to fire a fake gun, throwing fake knives, and breaking fake glass.
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Re: Crew member fatally shot on set of Alec Baldwin movie

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Well when a movie goes full cgi, the gun effects are probably pretty simple to include. But then there are movies where it’s going to be just props and added SFX and muzzle flashes.
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Re: Crew member fatally shot on set of Alec Baldwin movie

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Unagi wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 8:42 am I assume the main draw to use real guns with blanks is the cost of cgi and then the gun provides the actor with a kick-back affect for each shot, not just click click click.
Blanks don't have nearly the same muzzle flash or recoil of real rounds. They STILL need to be post-roduction'ed to make them look right. May as well do it all in post and eliminate the threat altogether.

In fact, most non-shooters close their eyes when shooting a gun, blanks or not. It looks bad on camera.
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Re: Crew member fatally shot on set of Alec Baldwin movie

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Max Peck wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 9:34 am It appears that Baldwin had no reason to believe that the weapon was even loaded when it was handed to him.
I don't own or ever TOUCHED a firearm, yet I know the safety rules around them. I respect the danger of a firearm, no matter what.

The assistant director has no business yelling "cold gun" when he didn't check it himself. SOMEONE told him it's not loaded, when it was. He wasn't competent enough to check it. From what I can see, this seems to be a western, so we're talking revolvers, not automatics. Yet to check for rounds in a revolver is arguably easier, depending on the type. If it's the breakaway type, open it up and how many rounds are obvious. Else, use the ejector rod to remove all rounds one at a time, or pop the cylinder catch and swing out the cylinder, and you can see if there are rounds loaded. If you have no idea what I am talking about, you should not be holding a gun.

Clearly, the armorer will NEVER work in the industry again. I know it's a f***ing ranch, but what should have been in place was EVERY weapon and EVERY round of ammo, live or otherwise, goes through him/her. ANYONE caught with a round or weapon that didn't go through her (keeping DETAILED accounts of everything) gets fired IMMEDIATELY.

Now I'm guessing they don't even know WHERE did this live round come from, or why would anyone give a gun, capable of live fire, to an actor, unless he's trained / licensed shooter.

It's a total mess and the production company is at least partly to blame for such a leaky setup. I would not pin it on the armorer immediately, but there goes a large chunk of responsibility.

And in a very remote way, I don't know how the American culture now has little of any understanding of the gun, even as it suffers the most gun deaths of any first world nation.
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Re: Crew member fatally shot on set of Alec Baldwin movie

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Apparently he was not only an actor in the movie, but a producer. Having that happen on his watch is going to haunt him for the rest of his life. Willing to bet he won't want to film scenes with guns in them anymore.
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Re: Crew member fatally shot on set of Alec Baldwin movie

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They're now reporting that the armorer handed an unchecked improperly checked handgun to an 11-year old in her previous job as an armorer for a movie.

And there were TWO ACCIDENTAL DISCHARGES prior to the fatal one on the set. Just one should be enough to get the entire department canned, but apparently the directors didn't give a ****. And it seems Alec Baldwin may have to pay for this one, as it's his film.
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Re: Crew member fatally shot on set of Alec Baldwin movie

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What a shit show. How do you screw up that bad with guns?
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Re: Crew member fatally shot on set of Alec Baldwin movie

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Max Peck wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 9:34 amIt appears that Baldwin had no reason to believe that the weapon was even loaded when it was handed to him.
The very first rule I was given in using firearms is that any gun you see is loaded until you personally verify it's not. Every time a gun changes hands, the person now handling it should be checking it for bullets.
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Re: Crew member fatally shot on set of Alec Baldwin movie

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At some point, any number of people on this shoot should have called bullshit and pumped the brakes. Responsibility for negligence rarely rests on a single set of shoulders, and after the first accidental discharge the alarms should have gone off. After a second? Anybody and everybody with authority higher than hers should have benched her. Possibly including Baldwin (I don't know the chain of authority is on a movie set.)

And yeah, I wouldn't expect an actor to unload and reload every firearm to make sure that every round is a blank, but a 'cold gun' should be completely empty, and that's easy to check. A spin of the cylinder, a glance at a magazine, a cycling of the action. Most guns can be confirmed empty in a matter of seconds.

And if the gun was (theoretically) cold, they may very well have been using (or planning to use) CGI.
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Re: Crew member fatally shot on set of Alec Baldwin movie

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An 11-year old?? WTF? Surely this person shouldn't have had that job in the first place, if it wasn't the only incident.

Btw, in terms of other on-set accidents, there's one that happened locally:
It also is reminiscent of a similar incident that happened on a film set in Sudbury in 2016 that injured actor Brendan Fletcher.

On March 23, 2016, Fletcher was in Sudbury for the filming of the CTV series “Cardinal”.

According to a story in The Hollywood Reporter at the time, “the actor took a discharge to his throat from a firearm not fully emptied of blanks and suffered a serious flesh wound.”

CTV said Fletcher received treatment in hospital and was discharged.
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Re: Crew member fatally shot on set of Alec Baldwin movie

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Very bad safety problem:

https://www.thedailybeast.com/alec-bald ... s-shooting
Gutierrez-Reed was described as being “inexperienced and green” by a Rust production source, who told The Daily Beast there were at least two previous incidents of guns being accidentally discharged by other crew members before Thursday’s tragic incident.

According to the Actors’ Equity Association’s guidelines, guns should be test-fired off stage before each use. “All loading of firearms must be done by the property master, armorer or experienced persons working under their direct supervision,” the association advises.

Two Rust production sources, who have both worked in the industry for decades, claim that assistant director Dave Halls, who is named in the search warrant affidavit as the person who handed the gun to Baldwin and said it was safe, should have also checked the weapons.

“He’s supposed to be our last line of defense and he failed us,” the first source said. “He’s the last person that’s supposed to look at that firearm.”

According to the affidavit, Gutierrez-Reed had placed three prop guns on a cart outside where the scene was being filmed, before Halls grabbed a revolver from the cart and gave it to Baldwin. Halls called out “cold gun!” on set, according to the affidavit.

The second production source told The Daily Beast that the first assistant director should be personally verifying whether a weapon is “hot” or “cold.” (A “cold gun” indicates there are no cartridges—including blanks—inside the firearm. A “hot gun” indicates the weapon is loaded with cartridges, either live ammunition or blank rounds.) “This check alone should’ve prevented this incident,” the person said.

In a heartbreaking 911 call, script supervisor Mamie Mitchell also seemed to reference Halls as she urgently asked a dispatcher to send an ambulance to the set at Bonanza Creek Ranch, on the outskirts of Santa Fe.

Mitchell can be overheard telling someone nearby, “this fucking AD that yelled at me at lunch asking about revisions, this motherfucker. Did you see him lean over my desk and yell at me? He’s supposed to check the guns. He’s responsible for what happened.”

The allegations from Rust crew members appear to mirror allegations from two production sources who worked with Gutierrez-Reed on The Old Way, where she was hired as head armorer.

Gutierrez-Reed did not respond to The Daily Beast’s request for comment on Saturday. The Daily Beast also reached out to Rust Movie Productions LLC and Halls for comment. In a statement to The New York Times, the company said it had not been made aware of any “official complaints concerning weapon or prop safety on set,” noting it would be conducting an internal review and cooperating with law enforcement.

A relative newcomer to being an armorer, Gutierrez-Reed was trained by her father, the Hollywood veteran firearms consultant Thell Reed. The Old Way was the first time Gutierrez-Reed had worked as head armorer, admitting on the “Voices of the West” podcast that she nearly didn’t take the position because she wasn’t sure she was “ready” and she thought loading blank rounds into firearms was “the scariest thing.”

“But doing it, it went really smoothly,” she said.

However, that is not how production sources from The Old Way described their experience working with Gutierrez-Reed. “There were several concerns I brought to production’s attention,” one said. “I have been around firearms my entire life and noticed some things that were not okay even with loaded blank firearms.”

Another source said, compared to other sets they had been on, there was considerably less attention to gun safety under Gutierrez-Reed’s watch.

The most troubling incident occurred when Gutierrez-Reed allegedly loaded a gun on the ground where the area was filled with pebbles, then without properly checking the weapon, handed it to child actress Ryan Kiera Armstrong, both sources told The Daily Beast.

Concerned crew members intervened, demanding filming be stopped until Gutierrez-Reed had properly checked the firearm, the two sources said.

“She was reloading the gun on the ground, where there were pebbles and stuff. We didn’t see her check it, we didn’t know if something got in the barrel or not,” one source said, explaining the crew waited until she double checked the gun for barrel obstruction.
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Re: Crew member fatally shot on set of Alec Baldwin movie

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“A relative newcomer to being an armorer, Gutierrez-Reed was trained by her father, the Hollywood veteran firearms consultant Thell Reed.“

Willing to bet that’s how she got the job.
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Re: Crew member fatally shot on set of Alec Baldwin movie

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I haven't read the entire thread, so sorry if it was answered...

Why is there ever a reason to have a loaded gun with a real bullet on a movie set? Regardless who is at fault, why is that even a possibility?
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Re: Crew member fatally shot on set of Alec Baldwin movie

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naednek wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 12:34 pm I haven't read the entire thread, so sorry if it was answered...

Why is there ever a reason to have a loaded gun with a real bullet on a movie set? Regardless who is at fault, why is that even a possibility?
I've seen several professional armorers being quoted as saying there is no reason to have live ammunition on a filming location.

There is reporting today that the weapon in question was being used "off the clock" for target shooting with live ammuntion.

Rust shooting: Film crew ‘used Alec Baldwin’s gun for live target practice’
Members of the film crew working on the set where a cinematographer was shot dead by the actor Alec Baldwin are reported to have been using the gun involved for live target practice.

Sources involved in the production told the celebrity website TMZ that the gun was used for recreational purposes off set, with real ammunition that may have accidentally been left in the weapon when it was handed to Baldwin, 63, during a rehearsal.

Halyna Hutchins, 42, director of photography for the film Rust, died after Baldwin fired the weapon while rehearsing a scene on Thursday in New Mexico. The actor had been told by an assistant director, Dave Halls, that the gun was not loaded.
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Re: Crew member fatally shot on set of Alec Baldwin movie

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Someone is so fucked for this. Its Alec that will get sued and its Alec that will have to live with this death on his hands though in the end. Barring everything else a person lost their life and a family lost their loved one.
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Re: Crew member fatally shot on set of Alec Baldwin movie

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As I've seen observed by so many others (and it's not my intention to drag this into an R&P topic), but if America spent as much attention on kids getting shot in schools as they are on what happened with this Alec Baldwin movie, maybe we could actually get somewhere.

NOTE: Again, this isn't to minimize what happened here, I'm just astounded that universally people seem to be horrified about what happened here and want something done, but kids in schools? Gun violence? Third rail.
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Re: Crew member fatally shot on set of Alec Baldwin movie

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So, if I read this right, it sounds like they cheaped out and hired an inexperienced armorer, and they had other incidents before this one, which caused heavy concern on set, meanwhile the AD which is in charge of on-set security and is supposed to double-check the guns, didn't care so much about the incidents to stop the production then and there. So, it sounds to me like the AD is as much to blame for letting it happen and the hiring of the armorer.
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Re: Crew member fatally shot on set of Alec Baldwin movie

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Prop gun round chambers should be smaller than standard rounds. Onky blanks to be mfg to chamber size. Only prop guns should exist on set. Verify only prop guns are on set. Chance of accident vastly reduced.
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Re: Crew member fatally shot on set of Alec Baldwin movie

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The problem is that it's much cheaper to have regular standard guns with ammo to fit than make blank guns. Not to mention the guns looking more realistic than toy blank guns.
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Re: Crew member fatally shot on set of Alec Baldwin movie

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Especially when it comes to unusual or historical weapons. Most props aren't manufactured to the degree required for even blanks to be fired safely. A significant number of props aren't designed to outlast the filming.

In other words, prop guns capable of firing blanks would have to be manufactured specifically for that by a specialist. Standard models could be pumped out cheaply, but the variety required, especially for historical films, would be impractical. They'd have to be custom built, one by one, for each film. That would be hugely expensive and time consuming.

This was an accident that essentially never happens. It's incredibly rare. It doesn't need a solution of that magnitude.
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Re: Crew member fatally shot on set of Alec Baldwin movie

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Cheaper than killing people on the set. Let me make it easier, you can press fit an internal liner. That would not be expensive.
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Re: Crew member fatally shot on set of Alec Baldwin movie

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Montag wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 6:37 am Prop gun round chambers should be smaller than standard rounds. Onky blanks to be mfg to chamber size. Only prop guns should exist on set. Verify only prop guns are on set. Chance of accident vastly reduced.
I would agree with that. Although, I think the issue is more that proper checks weren't done and less about what kind of rounds were in the gun.
dbt1949 wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 7:27 am Not to mention the guns looking more realistic than toy blank guns.
Which is not really an issue if your camera is shooting at a distance. That's only a detail that would really matter closer in. As for kickback, it also depends on the gun, but propmasters often come up with ingenious ways to do things, heck just look at the Mythbusters and what they've done. There needs to be an industry innovation that would be able to add kickback to props, sort of like a version of haptic feedback, but much stronger, via small electronics on the gun that would trigger some sort of worn harness which would yank them back.
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Re: Crew member fatally shot on set of Alec Baldwin movie

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Smoove_B wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 1:29 pm As I've seen observed by so many others (and it's not my intention to drag this into an R&P topic), but if America spent as much attention on kids getting shot in schools as they are on what happened with this Alec Baldwin movie, maybe we could actually get somewhere.

NOTE: Again, this isn't to minimize what happened here, I'm just astounded that universally people seem to be horrified about what happened here and want something done, but kids in schools? Gun violence? Third rail.
I keep thinking about that too.
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Re: Crew member fatally shot on set of Alec Baldwin movie

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Archinerd wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 2:12 pm I keep thinking about that too.
Same here. Our countries moral compass is easily thrown off-kilter.
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Re: Crew member fatally shot on set of Alec Baldwin movie

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Ive seen semi auto bb guns that have the blowback and cycle in them using co2 carts. Look real. Course it doesn't kick back and up liek a real one but looks nice.
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Re: Crew member fatally shot on set of Alec Baldwin movie

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Jeff V wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 6:20 pm
Archinerd wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 2:12 pm I keep thinking about that too.
Same here. Our countries moral compass is easily thrown off-kilter.
Of course, both are horrible. But as someone in a country where school shootings don't quite happen as often due guns not being part of our culture, perspective is a bit different here, and it's a bit easier to be surprised and wanting to do something about on-set accidents.
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Daehawk
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Re: Crew member fatally shot on set of Alec Baldwin movie

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In China they prefer to stab kindergartners.
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Victoria Raverna
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Re: Crew member fatally shot on set of Alec Baldwin movie

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Montag wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 6:37 am Prop gun round chambers should be smaller than standard rounds. Onky blanks to be mfg to chamber size. Only prop guns should exist on set. Verify only prop guns are on set. Chance of accident vastly reduced.
If you can mix up real bullet and blank, you can also mix up prop gun with real gun. As for only prop guns are on the set. I think they also had rules about only blank bullets are on the set but still somehow they have real bullets in the gun.
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Re: Crew member fatally shot on set of Alec Baldwin movie

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Montag wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 1:18 pm Cheaper than killing people on the set. Let me make it easier, you can press fit an internal liner. That would not be expensive.
Again, this isn't really a thing. How often does this happen that we need to completely change the industry to solve it?

It's incredibly, incredibly rare. I can find two incident of actors dying from prop guns due to projectiles being left in them. (I'm not counting Hexum - a replica incapable of firing bullets would have had the same effect.) That's two in how many millions of man-hours of film and television where prop guns are involved? As much as they're used, and as rare as any real injuries or deaths are, they way things are set up seems to be working almost perfectly. In the same time period, I found three times as many deaths due to horses, and many, many times as many deaths from aircraft accidents.

It's a tragedy, but it's not something that needs to be 'fixed' beyond making an example out of the AD/armorer responsible.
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