Octopus Overlords

Donald trump’s rise to power generated a flood of media coverage and academic research on authoritarianism—or at least the kind of authoritarianism that exists on the political right. Over the past several years, some researchers have theorized that Trump couldn’t have won in 2016 without support from Americans who deplore political compromise and want leaders to rule with a strong hand. Although right-wing authoritarianism is well documented, social psychologists do not all agree that a leftist version even exists. In February 2020, the Society for Personality and Social Psychology held a symposium called “Is Left-Wing Authoritarianism Real? Evidence on Both Sides of the Debate.”

An ambitious new study on the subject by the Emory University researcher Thomas H. Costello and five colleagues should settle the question. It proposes a rigorous new measure of antidemocratic attitudes on the left. And, by drawing on a survey of 7,258 adults, Costello’s team firmly establishes that such attitudes exist on both sides of the American electorate. (One co-author on the paper, I should note, was Costello’s adviser, the late Scott Lilienfeld—with whom I wrote a 2013 book and numerous articles.) Intriguingly, the researchers found some common traits between left-wing and right-wing authoritarians, including a “preference for social uniformity, prejudice towards different others, willingness to wield group authority to coerce behavior, cognitive rigidity, aggression and punitiveness towards perceived enemies, outsized concern for hierarchy, and moral absolutism.”

Published last month in the Journal of Personality and Social Psychology, the Costello team’s paper is persuasive, to the point that you have to wonder: How could past researchers have overlooked left-wing authoritarianism for so long? “For 70 years, the lore in the social sciences has been that authoritarianism was to be found exclusively on the political right,” the Rutgers University social psychologist Lee Jussim, who wasn’t involved in the new study, told me in an email. In the 1950 book The Authoritarian Personality, an inquiry into the psychological makeup of people strongly drawn to autocratic rule and repressive politics, the German-born scholar Theodor W. Adorno and three other psychologists measured people along dimensions such as conformity to societal norms, rigid thinking, and sexual repression. And they concluded that “the authoritarian type of human”— the kind of person whose enthusiastic support allows someone like Hitler to exercise power—was found only among conservatives. In the mid-1990s, the influential Canadian psychologist Bob Altemeyer described left-wing authoritarianism as “the Loch Ness Monster of political psychology—an occasional shadow, but no monster. ” Subsequently, other psychologists reached the same conclusion.

malchior wrote:So these geniuses proved the Soviet Union existed? Or that the Cultural Revolution happened?

dbt1949 wrote: ↑Sat Sep 25, 2021 3:09 pm I think it's called Stalinism.

gbasden wrote: ↑Sat Sep 25, 2021 2:51 pm Yeah. Humans can all be shitty. The difference is that right now there is a very strong authoritarian push on the right and nothing on the left in this country. The risk at this moment is quite low for a dictatorial left.

Kraken wrote: ↑Sat Sep 25, 2021 3:52 pm

gbasden wrote: ↑Sat Sep 25, 2021 2:51 pm Yeah. Humans can all be shitty. The difference is that right now there is a very strong authoritarian push on the right and nothing on the left in this country. The risk at this moment is quite low for a dictatorial left.

Conservatives consider mandatory public health measures, especially mask and vaccine mandates, to be authoritarian.

malchior wrote: ↑Sat Sep 25, 2021 1:45 pm So these geniuses proved the Soviet Union existed? Or that the Cultural Revolution happened? Both saw sexual, social, and economic repression.

In the 1950 book The Authoritarian Personality, an inquiry into the psychological makeup of people strongly drawn to autocratic rule and repressive politics, the German-born scholar Theodor W. Adorno and three other psychologists measured people along dimensions such as conformity to societal norms, rigid thinking, and sexual repression. And they concluded that “the authoritarian type of human”— the kind of person whose enthusiastic support allows someone like Hitler to exercise power—was found only among conservatives. In the mid-1990s, the influential Canadian psychologist Bob Altemeyer described left-wing authoritarianism as “the Loch Ness Monster of political psychology—an occasional shadow, but no monster. ” Subsequently, other psychologists reached the same conclusion.

gbasden wrote: ↑Sat Sep 25, 2021 2:51 pm Yeah. Humans can all be shitty. The difference is that right now there is a very strong authoritarian push on the right and nothing on the left in this country. The risk at this moment is quite low for a dictatorial left.

Little Raven wrote: ↑Sat Sep 25, 2021 6:10 pm

malchior wrote: ↑Sat Sep 25, 2021 1:45 pm So these geniuses proved the Soviet Union existed? Or that the Cultural Revolution happened? Both saw sexual, social, and economic repression.

We are talking about the premier minds in our premier universities. I'm sure they know basic history. Nobody would doubt that the Soviet Union was authoritarian, but I personally know a great many on the left who would passionately argue that it was NOT left-wing, particularly once Stalin got involved. They would say that the Soviet Union was just another right-wing dictatorship, albeit one that cloaked itself in leftist ideology.

malchior wrote: ↑Sat Sep 25, 2021 6:38 pmI can't help but think that the academic community attitude is changing upon realizing that the illiberal left has now taken to storming their ivory towers with regularity now.

Kraken wrote: ↑Sat Sep 25, 2021 3:52 pm

gbasden wrote: ↑Sat Sep 25, 2021 2:51 pm Yeah. Humans can all be shitty. The difference is that right now there is a very strong authoritarian push on the right and nothing on the left in this country. The risk at this moment is quite low for a dictatorial left.

Conservatives consider mandatory public health measures, especially mask and vaccine mandates, to be authoritarian.

Blackhawk wrote: ↑Sat Sep 25, 2021 5:11 pm Imagine if these drive-by, passive-aggressive posts actually included commentary beyond a smiley. Something that the posters would have to commit to and defend.

Little Raven wrote: ↑Sat Sep 25, 2021 6:10 pm Which leads back to the long-standing assumption in academia that left-wing people are not authoritarian...indeed...that their basic mental makeup means they are literally incapable of it. Only conservatives, it was believed, possessed the basic drive to brutally police others and rigidly enforce hierarchies.

Little Raven wrote: ↑Sat Sep 25, 2021 6:10 pm

malchior wrote: ↑Sat Sep 25, 2021 1:45 pm So these geniuses proved the Soviet Union existed? Or that the Cultural Revolution happened? Both saw sexual, social, and economic repression.

We are talking about the premier minds in our premier universities. I'm sure they know basic history. Nobody would doubt that the Soviet Union was authoritarian, but I personally know a great many on the left who would passionately argue that it was NOT left-wing, particularly once Stalin got involved. They would say that the Soviet Union was just another right-wing dictatorship, albeit one that cloaked itself in leftist ideology.

Which leads back to the long-standing assumption in academia that left-wing people are not authoritarian...indeed...that their basic mental makeup means they are literally incapable of it. Only conservatives, it was believed, possessed the basic drive to brutally police others and rigidly enforce hierarchies.

In the 1950 book The Authoritarian Personality, an inquiry into the psychological makeup of people strongly drawn to autocratic rule and repressive politics, the German-born scholar Theodor W. Adorno and three other psychologists measured people along dimensions such as conformity to societal norms, rigid thinking, and sexual repression. And they concluded that “the authoritarian type of human”— the kind of person whose enthusiastic support allows someone like Hitler to exercise power—was found only among conservatives. In the mid-1990s, the influential Canadian psychologist Bob Altemeyer described left-wing authoritarianism as “the Loch Ness Monster of political psychology—an occasional shadow, but no monster. ” Subsequently, other psychologists reached the same conclusion.

To be fair, I do suspect that this is a view that existed mostly inside the ivory tower. I doubt the idea that only conservatives were capable of being power hungry dicks ever held much sway among ordinary people.

Kraken wrote: ↑Sat Sep 25, 2021 3:52 pm

gbasden wrote: ↑Sat Sep 25, 2021 2:51 pm Yeah. Humans can all be shitty. The difference is that right now there is a very strong authoritarian push on the right and nothing on the left in this country. The risk at this moment is quite low for a dictatorial left.

Conservatives consider mandatory public health measures, especially mask and vaccine mandates, to be authoritarian.

Grifman wrote: ↑Mon Sep 27, 2021 9:00 pm I've always wondered what would be the response here at OO to a liberal Trump-like candidate. Someone who gave the left everything they wanted (abortion, Supreme Court judges, global warming initiatives, gun control, social spending, etc), but used hateful Trump like rhetoric about gun owners, Christians, cultural conservatives, business owners, who drew back from US international commitments (NATO for example) so defense spending could be cut and social welfare spending increased, and who sought press restrictions on FOX News and other conservative outlets, who also talked like Trump about autocratic power, who had adult children he gave govt posts to, who made decisions that benefited his own businesses, and made accusations about the Republicans like Trump does of the Democrats. How much Trumpism would people be willing to accept to get their dream programs?

El Guapo wrote: ↑Tue Sep 28, 2021 12:25 pm

Grifman wrote: ↑Mon Sep 27, 2021 9:00 pm I've always wondered what would be the response here at OO to a liberal Trump-like candidate. Someone who gave the left everything they wanted (abortion, Supreme Court judges, global warming initiatives, gun control, social spending, etc), but used hateful Trump like rhetoric about gun owners, Christians, cultural conservatives, business owners, who drew back from US international commitments (NATO for example) so defense spending could be cut and social welfare spending increased, and who sought press restrictions on FOX News and other conservative outlets, who also talked like Trump about autocratic power, who had adult children he gave govt posts to, who made decisions that benefited his own businesses, and made accusations about the Republicans like Trump does of the Democrats. How much Trumpism would people be willing to accept to get their dream programs?

I'm sure the candidate would get a decent amount of criticism here, but the real question is whether people here would be willing to vote for a GOP candidate over the Bizarro Lefty Trump. And on that, it would matter who the GOP candidate was - if it was Bizarro Lefty Trump vs. Actual Trump (Trump Prime?), then I'm sure Bizarro Lefty Trump would clean up here.

But suppose it was Bizarro Lefty Trump vs. George W. Bush, say.

El Guapo wrote: ↑Tue Sep 28, 2021 12:25 pm

Grifman wrote: ↑Mon Sep 27, 2021 9:00 pm I've always wondered what would be the response here at OO to a liberal Trump-like candidate. Someone who gave the left everything they wanted (abortion, Supreme Court judges, global warming initiatives, gun control, social spending, etc), but used hateful Trump like rhetoric about gun owners, Christians, cultural conservatives, business owners, who drew back from US international commitments (NATO for example) so defense spending could be cut and social welfare spending increased, and who sought press restrictions on FOX News and other conservative outlets, who also talked like Trump about autocratic power, who had adult children he gave govt posts to, who made decisions that benefited his own businesses, and made accusations about the Republicans like Trump does of the Democrats. How much Trumpism would people be willing to accept to get their dream programs?

I'm sure the candidate would get a decent amount of criticism here, but the real question is whether people here would be willing to vote for a GOP candidate over the Bizarro Lefty Trump. And on that, it would matter who the GOP candidate was - if it was Bizarro Lefty Trump vs. Actual Trump (Trump Prime?), then I'm sure Bizarro Lefty Trump would clean up here.

But suppose it was Bizarro Lefty Trump vs. George W. Bush, say.

Jaymann wrote: ↑Tue Sep 28, 2021 12:32 pm

El Guapo wrote: ↑Tue Sep 28, 2021 12:25 pm

Grifman wrote: ↑Mon Sep 27, 2021 9:00 pm I've always wondered what would be the response here at OO to a liberal Trump-like candidate. Someone who gave the left everything they wanted (abortion, Supreme Court judges, global warming initiatives, gun control, social spending, etc), but used hateful Trump like rhetoric about gun owners, Christians, cultural conservatives, business owners, who drew back from US international commitments (NATO for example) so defense spending could be cut and social welfare spending increased, and who sought press restrictions on FOX News and other conservative outlets, who also talked like Trump about autocratic power, who had adult children he gave govt posts to, who made decisions that benefited his own businesses, and made accusations about the Republicans like Trump does of the Democrats. How much Trumpism would people be willing to accept to get their dream programs?

I'm sure the candidate would get a decent amount of criticism here, but the real question is whether people here would be willing to vote for a GOP candidate over the Bizarro Lefty Trump. And on that, it would matter who the GOP candidate was - if it was Bizarro Lefty Trump vs. Actual Trump (Trump Prime?), then I'm sure Bizarro Lefty Trump would clean up here.

But suppose it was Bizarro Lefty Trump vs. George W. Bush, say.

Definitely Bizarro Lefty. The Repugnicans, even as the Say-Puff Marshmallow Man, are now unmitigated democracy destroyers.

Drazzil wrote: ↑Sat Oct 23, 2021 8:22 pm Especially if he manages to pwn the R's. The lower he can drag em the better. Turn the carceral state on them for a change.

Blackhawk wrote: ↑Sat Oct 23, 2021 8:37 pm

Drazzil wrote: ↑Sat Oct 23, 2021 8:22 pm Especially if he manages to pwn the R's. The lower he can drag em the better. Turn the carceral state on them for a change.

You do realize that this attitude is exactly what fucked us in the first place, right? It's just maintaining the nightmare instead of solving anything. Going back to mutually assured destruction is that appealing?

Drazzil wrote: ↑Sat Oct 23, 2021 8:40 pm

Blackhawk wrote: ↑Sat Oct 23, 2021 8:37 pm

Drazzil wrote: ↑Sat Oct 23, 2021 8:22 pm Especially if he manages to pwn the R's. The lower he can drag em the better. Turn the carceral state on them for a change.

You do realize that this attitude is exactly what fucked us in the first place, right? It's just maintaining the nightmare instead of solving anything. Going back to mutually assured destruction is that appealing?

I believe that the lack of turning the carceral state on the 1% is exactly why we are here in the first place. Not to use it to kick the shit out of em will just ensure more of this sort of thing happens in the future.

Drazzil wrote: ↑Sat Oct 23, 2021 8:50 pm 1%ers may (arguably) be responsible for a continuing holocaust against people who work for a living. And before you say that's stupid, really think about the idea.