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Re: Electric Vehicles [BEVs] [FinallyADedicatedThread]

Posted: Thu Jan 06, 2022 6:57 pm
by Zaxxon
It's not the case. AAA has mobile charging options, and any vehicle with a 240V outlet (eg F150) can charge an EV.

Also, an EV can sit in traffic with the heat on for a *long* time. Many, many hours. Traffic jams on highways actually improve range because the cabin load is lighter than the wind resistance at highway speeds. Obviously if you're stuck for days that advantage is wiped out, but the idea that EVs are gimped by traffic is fundamentally unsound. Gas cars burn a lot of gas when stuck in traffic for a long time, too.

Re: Electric Vehicles [BEVs] [FinallyADedicatedThread]

Posted: Fri Jan 07, 2022 12:19 am
by malchior
Yeah I saw this as pure FUD - this is pure back of the envelope math here but a Model Y with heat pump uses something like 800Wh in freezing conditions to maintain 70 degrees. Worst case let's say 1 KWh for math ease. Even if the battery on a typical Y was 50% discharged they'd have 40-ish hours of charge if it ran constantly. In comparison, a typical engine idles at 1/3 to 1/2 gallon of gas per hour. Obviously in both cases you can stretch it by turning off engine/climate control but you probably run out of gas well before the Tesla runs out of charge.

Re: Electric Vehicles [BEVs] [FinallyADedicatedThread]

Posted: Fri Jan 07, 2022 12:29 am
by Zaxxon
Put it this way--people aren't using camp mode overnight while unplugged because the car strands them the next morning. Like, keeping the HVAC and entertainment running for several hours at a time while the car is stopped is a feature of the frickin' car.

Re: Electric Vehicles [BEVs] [FinallyADedicatedThread]

Posted: Fri Jan 07, 2022 12:42 pm
by Zaxxon
Some dude did a test based on that article, using a resistive-heater X and a heat pump Y.

tl;dr - in ~15F ambient using the less-efficient X set to 70F, expect more than 24 hours. In the Y that's 36 hours, and in more representative conditions (eg setting the temp lower than 70F as one would if they really were worried about being stuck for a long time) that jumps to ~60 hours.


Re: Electric Vehicles [BEVs] [FinallyADedicatedThread]

Posted: Fri Jan 07, 2022 1:44 pm
by LordMortis
I'm not engineer enough to know but I'd assume that a BEV would be way more efficient than an ICE engine at keeping you warm. A BEV would direct all its energy to keeping you warm and it has specific designs to keep warm during cold weather. An ICE engine give off heat as a byproduct and then captures that heat while also venting it to the outside. It gives you heat because it's trying to go somewhere and you won't let it.

Gas might very well be more efficient at providing heat than electricity but it would be in the design and purpose, wouldn't it?

Re: Electric Vehicles [BEVs] [FinallyADedicatedThread]

Posted: Fri Jan 07, 2022 3:35 pm
by malchior
0
Zaxxon wrote: Fri Jan 07, 2022 12:42 pm Some dude did a test based on that article, using a resistive-heater X and a heat pump Y.

tl;dr - in ~15F ambient using the less-efficient X set to 70F, expect more than 24 hours. In the Y that's 36 hours, and in more representative conditions (eg setting the temp lower than 70F as one would if they really were worried about being stuck for a long time) that jumps to ~60 hours.
One interesting note is he is right below the -10C mark which is the point where the Model Y won't use the heat pump any longer (sorta - as it still is involved but they use it in a mode where it doesn't try to grab heat from the atmosphere anymore). I'd be surprised if it had much impact at all. Even then the Y is slightly more efficient but at 20-25F degrees you'd potentially see a big difference in efficiency.

Re: Electric Vehicles [BEVs] [FinallyADedicatedThread]

Posted: Fri Jan 07, 2022 4:02 pm
by malchior
LordMortis wrote: Fri Jan 07, 2022 1:44 pm I'm not engineer enough to know but I'd assume that a BEV would be way more efficient than an ICE engine at keeping you warm. A BEV would direct all its energy to keeping you warm and it has specific designs to keep warm during cold weather. An ICE engine give off heat as a byproduct and then captures that heat while also venting it to the outside. It gives you heat because it's trying to go somewhere and you won't let it.

Gas might very well be more efficient at providing heat than electricity but it would be in the design and purpose, wouldn't it?
It's not even a fair comparison energy wise. A gallon of gas has about 33.7KWh of energy in it. So you idle at say 1/3 gallon per hour - that's ~10KWh. The Tesla is using 10% energy comparably to provide the same level of heating potentially depending on the temperature setting.

Where the ICE vehicle has an advantage is that the temperature setting doesn't matter much in this scenario. Want to run it full blast at the highest setting? It likely has almost no influence on the consumption. That comes with a downside in that you can't dial the consumption down. Whereas in the Tesla you can set temperature lower and buy time. You can simulate this in the ICE vehicle to an extent through some on/off cycles though.

Re: Electric Vehicles [BEVs] [FinallyADedicatedThread]

Posted: Fri Jan 07, 2022 4:12 pm
by stessier
malchior wrote: Fri Jan 07, 2022 4:02 pm It's not even a fair comparison energy wise. A gallon of gas has about 33.7KWh of energy in it. So you idle at say 1/3 gallon per hour - that's ~10KWh. The Tesla is using 10% energy comparably to provide the same level of heating potentially depending on the temperature setting.
Yeah, my Bolt, fully charged, is just under 2 gallons of gas equivalent (66KWh).

Re: Electric Vehicles [BEVs] [FinallyADedicatedThread]

Posted: Fri Jan 07, 2022 4:22 pm
by Zaxxon
Y'all beat me to the energy comparison. Bottom line is BEVs are just far more efficient at turning stored energy into movement. An ICE engine is lucky to be 30% efficient.

Re: Electric Vehicles [BEVs] [FinallyADedicatedThread]

Posted: Fri Jan 07, 2022 11:53 pm
by Hrothgar
Ok, lets' assume you're Sen Kaine. You've left home with your model 3 charged to 80% expecting your normal two hour drive. Half way there you get stuck in the weather for 24 hours at 15F. He keeps the temp at 70. How much power does he have left when he starts moving again? How far until empty?

What infrastructure improvements should we plan to make to improve this scenario as more BEVs are on the road?

Re: Electric Vehicles [BEVs] [FinallyADedicatedThread]

Posted: Sat Jan 08, 2022 12:57 am
by malchior
Hrothgar wrote: Fri Jan 07, 2022 11:53 pm Ok, lets' assume you're Sen Kaine. You've left home with your model 3 charged to 80% expecting your normal two hour drive. Half way there you get stuck in the weather for 24 hours at 15F. He keeps the temp at 70. How much power does he have left when he starts moving again? How far until empty?

What infrastructure improvements should we plan to make to improve this scenario as more BEVs are on the road?
This is pretty hard to calculate out (for one you probably wouldn't start out a trip from Richmond to DC at 80% - I'd personally aim for 90%). Still I plugged in an ideal trip in A Better Route Planner for the generic Richmond -> DC, if it was 80% and he had a clean run, he'd get to DC running about 30%...maybe. It's variable. That's why I'd expect to start at 90% to have some buffer. But anyway 30% buffer would give him about 24 hours of senseless 70 degree heating :D. He might be able to limp into DC between 1-5%. I wouldn't bet on it though. In reality there are 2 Supercharger choices only miles from where he was stuck. It'd end up not being too different from what most of these folks in ICE vehicles probably did which was find the first gas station they could.

But to tackle the hypothetical about what you need to support more BEVs. It's pretty simple -- more chargers. And more chargers are being stood up all the time. There is money to be made there so supply/demand still likely continues to cause the infrastructure build out to occur. We will also get some help from the infrastructure bill that Congress passed. That should get more built so there will be some rapid growth potentially.

Re: Electric Vehicles [BEVs] [FinallyADedicatedThread]

Posted: Sat Jan 08, 2022 11:20 pm
by Kasey Chang
Hrothgar wrote: Fri Jan 07, 2022 11:53 pm Ok, lets' assume you're Sen Kaine. You've left home with your model 3 charged to 80% expecting your normal two hour drive. Half way there you get stuck in the weather for 24 hours at 15F. He keeps the temp at 70. How much power does he have left when he starts moving again? How far until empty?

What infrastructure improvements should we plan to make to improve this scenario as more BEVs are on the road?
Personally? A range extender in the trunk. Not that Tesla would ever offer one.

Re: Electric Vehicles [BEVs] [FinallyADedicatedThread]

Posted: Sun Jan 09, 2022 1:33 am
by Hrothgar
Is that crazy? I'm thinking of an industry standard hot swappable emergency battery that could get you to the next charger. I'm sure there are technical problems I can't even foresee, but it seems like a worthy goal to strive towards.

Re: Electric Vehicles [BEVs] [FinallyADedicatedThread]

Posted: Sun Jan 09, 2022 4:51 am
by stessier
Hrothgar wrote: Sun Jan 09, 2022 1:33 am Is that crazy? I'm thinking of an industry standard hot swappable emergency battery that could get you to the next charger. I'm sure there are technical problems I can't even foresee, but it seems like a worthy goal to strive towards.
How is that different than having AAA come out and charge you up (which is available now)?

Re: Electric Vehicles [BEVs] [FinallyADedicatedThread]

Posted: Mon Jan 10, 2022 2:10 am
by Hrothgar
Well, your emergency vehicle could have five or ten batteries charged when they leave. Swap time would be very short compared to charging. The vehicle could then even charge the discharged emergency batteries while going from vehicle to vehicle. In short, more vehicles serviced faster. It's not as cool as say inductive charging in the roadway that could be turned on in emergencies, but it might be more practical. I'm just brainstorming the proposed problem here.

Re: Electric Vehicles [BEVs] [FinallyADedicatedThread]

Posted: Mon Jan 10, 2022 6:06 am
by Formix
Hrothgar wrote: Sun Jan 09, 2022 1:33 am Is that crazy? I'm thinking of an industry standard hot swappable emergency battery that could get you to the next charger. I'm sure there are technical problems I can't even foresee, but it seems like a worthy goal to strive towards.
There was an Israeli company called betterplace that was talking about this about a decade or more ago. Although not for emergency use, it was more, drive your BEV into a swapping station, and it would automatically swap out your battery for a charged one.

Re: Electric Vehicles [BEVs] [FinallyADedicatedThread]

Posted: Mon Jan 10, 2022 12:07 pm
by Zaxxon
I think the issue with this line of thought is that it's by necessity extremely complex (some easy niggles: each OEM must agree to a standard design of an emergency battery and interface, as well as its battery management system, either the OEM or owners must agree to terms for actually swapping possession and ownership of the batteries, etc) with very little practical benefit vs an emergency vehicle simply showing up with a J1772 plug and adding 5-20 miles of range via an already-existing protocol and already-existing-on-many-rescue-vehicles electrical system.

Re: Electric Vehicles [BEVs] [FinallyADedicatedThread]

Posted: Mon Jan 10, 2022 12:19 pm
by stessier
Yeah - the entire floor of my car is a battery. All the cells work in unison to get me my power. Just swapping out some wouldn't work (uneven charge distribution can lead to fires!). Even if you redesigned it so that you could hot swap some and only run off the higher charged cells, you'd need to change a bunch of them to get the power/range required. Better to keep the current AAA option and spend money upgrading infrastructure to make sure you are never more than 20 miles from a charger.

Re: Electric Vehicles [BEVs] [FinallyADedicatedThread]

Posted: Mon Jan 10, 2022 12:24 pm
by Zaxxon
stessier wrote: Mon Jan 10, 2022 12:19 pm Yeah - the entire floor of my car is a battery. All the cells work in unison to get me my power. Just swapping out some wouldn't work (uneven charge distribution can lead to fires!). Even if you redesigned it so that you could hot swap some and only run off the higher charged cells, you'd need to change a bunch of them to get the power/range required. Better to keep the current AAA option and spend money upgrading infrastructure to make sure you are never more than 20 miles from a charger.
Yeah, to be clear I'm talking about a separate emergency battery. Touching the main pack in any way is a complete non-starter.

Re: Electric Vehicles [BEVs] [FinallyADedicatedThread]

Posted: Mon Jan 10, 2022 12:26 pm
by malchior
Zaxxon wrote: Mon Jan 10, 2022 12:24 pmYeah, to be clear I'm talking about a separate emergency battery. Touching the main pack in any way is a complete non-starter.
Yeah why not propose swapping out an ICE engine? I mean people would totally take a rando-engine without any maintenance history, etc. "We swapped it out for a battery back that's 3 years old and was exclusively super charged. That sound good?"

Re: Electric Vehicles [BEVs] [FinallyADedicatedThread]

Posted: Fri Feb 18, 2022 10:46 am
by Zaxxon

Re: Electric Vehicles [BEVs] [FinallyADedicatedThread]

Posted: Fri Feb 18, 2022 11:41 am
by Isgrimnur
Image

Are we sure they aren't supervillains?

Re: Electric Vehicles [BEVs] [FinallyADedicatedThread]

Posted: Fri Feb 18, 2022 1:24 pm
by Kasey Chang
Formix wrote: Mon Jan 10, 2022 6:06 am There was an Israeli company called betterplace that was talking about this about a decade or more ago. Although not for emergency use, it was more, drive your BEV into a swapping station, and it would automatically swap out your battery for a charged one.
They do that in China already.

Re: Electric Vehicles [BEVs] [FinallyADedicatedThread]

Posted: Mon Feb 28, 2022 2:36 pm
by Zaxxon
Sandy Munro checks out the Lucid Air:


Re: Electric Vehicles [BEVs] [FinallyADedicatedThread]

Posted: Wed Mar 02, 2022 10:54 am
by LawBeefaroni
Ford has officially announced plans to separate their EV and ICE businesses. Ford Model E and Ford Blue respectively.

This should improve both sides of the business as they can maximize profits with Blue and discard ICE trappings with Model E.

Re: Electric Vehicles [BEVs] [FinallyADedicatedThread]

Posted: Thu Mar 17, 2022 5:19 am
by stessier
Zaxxon wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 12:00 pm
Zaxxon wrote: Tue Sep 28, 2021 12:24 pm
Zaxxon wrote: Tue Sep 28, 2021 11:52 am
Zaxxon wrote: Tue Sep 28, 2021 11:16 am
Electrek also loves it.
The Verge also has a write-up.
Why not Ars, too?
MKBHD also likes it!

I haven't watched it all yet, but they will get to spend a week with it.


Re: Electric Vehicles [BEVs] [FinallyADedicatedThread]

Posted: Thu Mar 17, 2022 8:37 am
by Carpet_pissr
I'm invested in Rivian, so obviously am cheering for them to do well, but I wonder if they have plans to make an ACTUAL work truck that people who use trucks would buy? This model's bed is so small and short as to be almost useless.

Not saying there's anything wrong with a "lifestyle" truck, if you will, but an EV truck with real utility and a full sized bed (or at least close to full sized) would be amazing.

Re: Electric Vehicles [BEVs] [FinallyADedicatedThread]

Posted: Thu Mar 17, 2022 9:50 am
by malchior
Carpet_pissr wrote: Thu Mar 17, 2022 8:37 am I'm invested in Rivian, so obviously am cheering for them to do well, but I wonder if they have plans to make an ACTUAL work truck that people who use trucks would buy? This model's bed is so small and short as to be almost useless.

Not saying there's anything wrong with a "lifestyle" truck, if you will, but an EV truck with real utility and a full sized bed (or at least close to full sized) would be amazing.
Yeah this is the problem with a start up car maker, they have to find/create a unique niche and exploit it to survive through scale up. I imagine they realized that going up against Ford competing for that market space wasn't worth it at the moment.

Re: Electric Vehicles [BEVs] [FinallyADedicatedThread]

Posted: Wed Apr 27, 2022 2:47 pm
by coopasonic
I've been checking out KIA EV6. I saw one on a walk in my neighborhood and thought it looked nice. I wish it was possible to drive one. The price is higher than I was expecting.

I am mostly just excited that there are more and more options that I could actually see myself driving, not just whether I want a Leaf, Volt or Prius.

Re: Electric Vehicles [BEVs] [FinallyADedicatedThread]

Posted: Thu Apr 28, 2022 10:46 am
by Zaxxon
coopasonic wrote: Wed Apr 27, 2022 2:47 pmI am mostly just excited that there are more and more options that I could actually see myself driving, not just whether I want a Leaf, Volt or Prius.
Same.

Re: Electric Vehicles [BEVs] [FinallyADedicatedThread]

Posted: Sat May 14, 2022 4:42 am
by stessier
A little angsty in the middle, but I still like the explanations.




And here was a fun road race in 2 parts.




Re: Electric Vehicles [BEVs] [FinallyADedicatedThread]

Posted: Mon May 30, 2022 8:53 am
by Daehawk
The new Delorean is shown ...its electric.

DeLorean EV Revealed – and It's a 4-Seater

Surprise! The all-electric reimagining of Back to the Future's 4-wheeled costar resurrects an old DMC plan.

Enlarge Image
The DeLorean EV is targeting a 100kWh battery pack that should provide north of 300 miles of range and power a dual-motor, all-wheel-drive setup. It will accelerate from 0-60mph in 2.99 seconds, and 0-88mph (you know why!) in 4.35 seconds. The top speed is projected to be 155mph. Pricing is expected to be in the $175,000 range, with production expected to begin at DMC's new San Antonio, TX facility in the next couple of years. Note that these specs are listed for the "Base Performance Model" of the Alpha5, which is seemingly the model name of this new DeLorean.
More pics at the site. One inside

Re: Electric Vehicles [BEVs] [FinallyADedicatedThread]

Posted: Wed Jun 01, 2022 4:57 pm
by LordMortis
Not a BEV but plug in hybrid [PHEV] which is all I can reasonably think about in my current situation... So I'm thinking I may need to buy another car sooner than later and so I see you can get a plug in hybrid IONIQ starting around $26,000 still with a $5,000 tax credit but they aren't available in Michigan. *Harumph* No explanation only "Currently, 2022 IONIQ Plug-in Hybrid is only sold in CA, CO, CT, ME, MA, MD, NJ, NY, OR, RI, & VT."

Maybe I'll have to look at a Prius or Niro. After that they really move out of my price range. Even these two are something I'd have to evaluate my living circumstance to purchase.

I have no idea how to care for an electrified vehicle. That's something I'ma need to learn.

Re: Electric Vehicles [BEVs] [FinallyADedicatedThread]

Posted: Wed Jun 01, 2022 6:56 pm
by Zaxxon
Maybe look at the Prius Prime? Also a PHEV, and I believe Toyota sells them everywhere now.

Re: Electric Vehicles [BEVs] [FinallyADedicatedThread]

Posted: Wed Jun 01, 2022 8:15 pm
by Zaxxon
Also, as much as it might pain LM to own a Chevy...


Re: Electric Vehicles [BEVs] [FinallyADedicatedThread]

Posted: Thu Jun 02, 2022 4:04 am
by stessier
I think LM said he only has 100amp service. Something to verify before getting a Bolt.

Re: Electric Vehicles [BEVs] [FinallyADedicatedThread]

Posted: Thu Jun 02, 2022 5:03 am
by Formix
Would going to NY to buy the Ioniq be an option? I hear they're really nice.

In other news, things are moving along for my SEV. I'm still hopeful I'll have it around Christmas, then it's practically goodbye charging forever.

https://youtu.be/ErUsBBxubwg

Re: Electric Vehicles [BEVs] [FinallyADedicatedThread]

Posted: Thu Jun 02, 2022 7:39 am
by LordMortis
stessier wrote: Thu Jun 02, 2022 4:04 am I think LM said he only has 100amp service. Something to verify before getting a Bolt.
Yeah, a full BEV simply isn't realistic for me but if I can get a PHEV that does 110 with a reasonable draw and get the first 25-30 miles on a battery, I'll be in good shape. Most of my driving is less than 30 miles on on most days and a typical day of much driving is still only 50-60 miles. But I still need affordability. I was hoping to make it 23 or 24 before buying another car, also hoping the supply chain and pent up demand would ease by then but that's looking less and less likely. So now is the time to start my diligence before the need goes from likely to dire.

At first sweep, I was really liking the IONIQ.

I'd consider a Chevy if the right one came along. The Bolt is not the right one. I simply don't have the outlay for a full BEV and the change of infrastructure to my home to support one at this point. My sister picked up Mach E without doing the changes for her house. She takes 96 hours to charge her car and still doesn't have a plan in place to bring her house up to code, upgrade her grid connection, and put in home charging station. Her place is better than mine. We live in very old neighborhoods... Ironically, built by the auto sector in the 50s.

Re: Electric Vehicles [BEVs] [FinallyADedicatedThread]

Posted: Thu Jun 02, 2022 9:42 am
by ImLawBoy
LordMortis wrote: Thu Jun 02, 2022 7:39 am
stessier wrote: Thu Jun 02, 2022 4:04 am I think LM said he only has 100amp service. Something to verify before getting a Bolt.
Yeah, a full BEV simply isn't realistic for me but if I can get a PHEV that does 110 with a reasonable draw and get the first 25-30 miles on a battery, I'll be in good shape. Most of my driving is less than 30 miles on on most days and a typical day of much driving is still only 50-60 miles.
That's how I drive and a PHEV has been great for me. I asked the dealer about installing a better charger and he said he didn't think it was worth the expense/hassle, particularly given how I drive. I just plug it into the regular outlet in the garage when I get home and it works great.
LordMortis wrote: But I still need affordability.
Aye, there's the rub. I went with a fancy Vovlo, which doesn't score so well on the affordability scale (unless you're comparing it to Audi or something).

Re: Electric Vehicles [BEVs] [FinallyADedicatedThread]

Posted: Thu Jun 02, 2022 8:36 pm
by Isgrimnur
Road and Track
The Ford brand will transition to exclusively online, fixed-price, delivered-to-your-door sales for EVs, CEO Jim Farley said, according to USA Today.

"We've got to go to non-negotiated price. We've got to go 100 percent online. There's no inventory (at dealerships), it goes directly to the customer. And 100 percent remote pick up and delivery," he said during Bernstein's Annual Strategic Decisions Conference, per USA Today.