Electric Vehicles [BEVs] [FinallyADedicatedThread]

[em2nought]

There's been some covert footage released of Tesla's affordable $26,000 model.

[Formix]

Yeah don't forget the fact I have NEVER waited fueling my BEV up. Literally zero time waiting. Balance that against the odd get out and walk around during a road trip and it shouldn't seem that bad. My wife has to make sure she leaves time to get gas before some event. How about you take my car honey?

Bonus, I have very close to never touched a fueling device handle that someone else has used in the process of fueling my BEV.

THIS. I've traveled extensively in my Ioniq 6 and never had a problem. In fact, on a recent return trip from PA to NC, I had more charging options than I needed, looking at Electrify America charging stations alone. Most of them were located at Sheetz, so it's convenient to plug in, hit the bathroom, grab a drink, come back out, and you're good to go. Others are at Walmarts, so a little less convenient since they're typically further away in the parking lot, but when you're on a long trip, a little stretching of the legs is not a bad thing.

I think a lot of these charging time numbers are derived by charging to 100%, which adds to the time, and is not the recommended thing to do. I almost always charge to 80% and I'm on my way in minutes.

[Montag]

Look if you guys can celebrate how easy it is to plan your trips to not waste time at charging stations, then I would hope you would have had the ability to plan your day to day activities to get gas efficiently at a cost of no more than 5 minutes. I can find 5 minutes out of every two weeks just fine.

I am not poo pooing on EVs, let's just keep things balanced.

My medium turn plans may be taking over my in laws house and throwing up solar for a future EV for myself.

[stessier]

Yeah don't forget the fact I have NEVER waited fueling my BEV up. Literally zero time waiting. Balance that against the odd get out and walk around during a road trip and it shouldn't seem that bad. My wife has to make sure she leaves time to get gas before some event. How about you take my car honey?

Bonus, I have very close to never touched a fueling device handle that someone else has used in the process of fueling my BEV.

THIS. I've traveled extensively in my Ioniq 6 and never had a problem. In fact, on a recent return trip from PA to NC, I had more charging options than I needed, looking at Electrify America charging stations alone. Most of them were located at Sheetz, so it's convenient to plug in, hit the bathroom, grab a drink, come back out, and you're good to go. Others are at Walmarts, so a little less convenient since they're typically further away in the parking lot, but when you're on a long trip, a little stretching of the legs is not a bad thing.

I think a lot of these charging time numbers are derived by charging to 100%, which adds to the time, and is not the recommended thing to do. I almost always charge to 80% and I'm on my way in minutes.

The Ioniq 5 & 6 charge at the fastest rates in the fleet. So no, the others really do take that long to go from 10 to 80%. How often people actually wait for ~10% and truly go all the way to 80%, though, is up for debate.

[stessier]

Look if you guys can celebrate how easy it is to plan your trips to not waste time at charging stations, then I would hope you would have had the ability to plan your day to day activities to get gas efficiently at a cost of no more than 5 minutes. I can find 5 minutes out of every two weeks just fine.

I am not poo pooing on EVs, let's just keep things balanced.

My medium turn plans may be taking over my in laws house and throwing up solar for a future EV for myself.

If you only need to fill up every two weeks, an EV is definitely for you!

[Zaxxon]

Look if you guys can celebrate how easy it is to plan your trips to not waste time at charging stations, then I would hope you would have had the ability to plan your day to day activities to get gas efficiently at a cost of no more than 5 minutes. I can find 5 minutes out of every two weeks just fine.

I am not poo pooing on EVs, let's just keep things balanced.

My medium turn plans may be taking over my in laws house and throwing up solar for a future EV for myself.

If you only need to fill up every two weeks, an EV is definitely for you!

Montag, the zest with which we discuss charging speed is directly proportional to the amount of bullshit we have to hear and respond to when talking about these cars to the vox populi. Believe me, I'd rather everyone just understood that it's in general a net gain rather than some massive problem intrinsic to electric vehicles so we could stop talking about it.

[Isgrimnur]

There's been some covert footage released of Tesla's affordable $26,000 model.

I'd probably spring for the deluxe package

[GreenGoo]

Asked google what makes Teslas better than other EVs.

Range. Ok, fair.
Better driver assist. I mean...I guess.
HEPA filtration. Er...ok.
Charger network. Uh...ok.
better touch screen. Perhaps.
video games/streaming. Huh?
Karaoke. What?!
Powered by green(ish) power such as wind and sun. Wait a min....

I gave up after that.

I'm not paying a premium of 10's of thousands for karaoke. I'm sure they are great cars, but it's hard to justify the price difference.

[Zaxxon]

What BEV are you considering that is $10k-$20k less than the equivalent Tesla?

[GreenGoo]

Any. Last time I looked (August maybe) Tesla was about 10k base more expensive, then upgrades.

I did see that they had a sale going into the fall due to slowing sales. Not sure where they are at the moment.

Separately, Kia corporate is begging dealers not to add too much of a premium above MSRP for the new EV9. Good luck with that.

This is all in Canada.

[Zaxxon]

Any. Last time I looked Tesla was about 10k base more expensive, then upgrades.

Interesting. That is... not the case in the US in general.

[GreenGoo]

Any. Last time I looked Tesla was about 10k base more expensive, then upgrades.

Interesting. That is... not the case in the US in general.

Looking now Mach-e base and model Y are within $2k of each other.

edit: Same with EV6 and model Y.

It's possible I wasn't comparing apples to apples. I don't really have an explanation for the discrepancy between reality and my head. Mental illness?

[Zaxxon]

No, I think you're just operating on some outdated info. Back in mid-2022, Tesla's prices were considerably higher than they are now.

[stessier]

No, I think you're just operating on some outdated info. Back in mid-2022, Tesla's prices were considerably higher than they are now.

Which is why competition is good.

[Zaxxon]

No, I think you're just operating on some outdated info. Back in mid-2022, Tesla's prices were considerably higher than they are now.

Which is why competition is good.

Indeed. I eagerly await the day when it finally arrives (in volume that actually competes). Remember that 20+ Model Y are produced for each Mach-e, for one example.

The macro environment is IMO the far bigger influence on recent pricing. Auto loan rates are not what they used to be. Every automaker is feeling it.

[Exodor]

Asked google what makes Teslas better than other EVs.

Range. Ok, fair.

I mean, maybe?

The lawsuit alleges Tesla violated state consumer fraud statutes when it falsely advertised the range of its electric vehicles. Lawyers representing the owners said that Tesla “grossly overvalued” the range — which is the estimated distance a vehicle can travel on a single battery charge — when selling the vehicles to consumers.

Last week, Reuters reported that Tesla had inflated its range estimates, prompting owners to flood its service center over concerns that their vehicles needed service. The investigation, citing anonymous sources and industry experts, found that the directive to use algorithms to give rosier range numbers came from CEO Elon Musk.

As sales exploded, service requests also grew. To thwart the influx of requests and help keep costs in check, Tesla created a special “diversion team” dedicated to handle so-called “range cases” — meaning owners complaining of lower ranges than expected, according to the Reuters report. Diversion team members were trained to tell owners that the EPA-approved range estimates were just a prediction. They would also provide tips to customers on how to extend range. The team’s goal was to cancel as many of those appointments as possible, saving Tesla as much as $1,000 a visit, the Reuters investigation found.

I guess Ford and Hyundai haven't staffed up their "avoid addressing customer range rage" diversion teams yet.

[GreenGoo]

Presumably independent reviewers and testers would verify these numbers just as they do with any other car, EV or ICE.

If that never happened, well, so much for consumer protections and media.

Or they were bought. In which case, hopefully the truth comes out with the lawsuit.

I had heard about the class action suit prior to this post, but wasn't following it closely and was waiting on the results, essentially.

[Zaxxon]

Solid thread on the recent glut of negative articles regarding BEV sales from a Princeton prof:

[malchior]

It's almost like there is a herding factor where some publication floats out an idea, starts getting clicks for some reason, and everyone mindlessly competes for the clicks with similar stories regardless of the underlying truth.

As an aside, I did find it interesting that earlier this year there was a lot of wondering if Musk was having an impact on demand. Now that demand has fallen that storyline is curiously absent. It's all about EVs as a category. That story is probably more about interests and less about Musk but I haven't put my finger on why that he isn't in the story at all but it stands out to me.

[Carpet_pissr]

Does anyone know if it's true that the very much touted EV tax credits are not so easy to come by? I recently saw something on Slickdeals talking about the re-introduced $7500 tax credit for Tesla, but in order to actually get that amount, would you have to have $7,500 in tax liability?

If you always get a refund, would this program yield any savings at all? I just seem to remember something like that as I did research a few years ago, not sure if it still applies.

My brain is thinking:
If you have a $2500 tax liability in the year that you buy an EV, even though you qualify for a tax credit UP TO $7,500, because you "only" owe $2,500, that's what you get. Maybe they rollover though, so you can get the remainder the following year(s)?

Edit: I see this is a BEV thread only?! Is there also a PHEV and HEV thread?

[Zaxxon]

Does anyone know if it's true that the very much touted EV tax credits are not so easy to come by? I recently saw something on Slickdeals talking about the re-introduced $7500 tax credit for Tesla, but in order to actually get that amount, would you have to have $7,500 in tax liability?

If you always get a refund, would this program yield any savings at all? I just seem to remember something like that as I did research a few years ago, not sure if it still applies.

Yes, you have to have $7,500 in tax liability. But this is entirely separate from whether you get a refund (ie, whether you overpaid your liability over the course of the year). You just need to have had $7,500 in liability in order to receive the full credit.

[Zaxxon]

Also of note: starting 1/1/24, the federal credit is able to be obtained at the point of sale, by signing it over to the dealer/manufacturer and confirming that you qualify for the full credit. Assuming that the dealer/manufacturer you're buying from has signed up for this capability (the process for which just opened in recent weeks).

[stessier]

Does anyone know if it's true that the very much touted EV tax credits are not so easy to come by? I recently saw something on Slickdeals talking about the re-introduced $7500 tax credit for Tesla, but in order to actually get that amount, would you have to have $7,500 in tax liability?

If you always get a refund, would this program yield any savings at all? I just seem to remember something like that as I did research a few years ago, not sure if it still applies.

My brain is thinking:
If you have a $2500 tax liability in the year that you buy an EV, even though you qualify for a tax credit UP TO $7,500, because you "only" owe $2,500, that's what you get. Maybe they rollover though, so you can get the remainder the following year(s)?

Edit: I see this is a BEV thread only?! Is there also a PHEV and HEV thread?

I think you might be conflating a refund and tax liability (but maybe not).

The credit has always been for tax liability. If you owed 10k in taxes (tax liability), and paid 12,500 - you would normally get a $2,500 return. Claiming the EV credit would reduce the 10,000 by 7,500 - so your new tax bill would be $2,500 of which you had already paid in through the year 12,500 - so you would be due a return of $10,000.

So it is true, if your tax liability was $2,500 and you paid $3,500 during the year, you would normally get a $1,000 refund. Claiming the EV credit would reduce your liability to $0 - but you still paid $3,500 so you would get a refund of $3,500.

The credit does not carry from year to year if you do not use it all. You can only get a maximum of what you owe in the year it is claimed.

[Carpet_pissr]

Does anyone know if it's true that the very much touted EV tax credits are not so easy to come by? I recently saw something on Slickdeals talking about the re-introduced $7500 tax credit for Tesla, but in order to actually get that amount, would you have to have $7,500 in tax liability?

If you always get a refund, would this program yield any savings at all? I just seem to remember something like that as I did research a few years ago, not sure if it still applies.

Yes, you have to have $7,500 in tax liability. But this is entirely separate from whether you get a refund (ie, whether you overpaid your liability over the course of the year). You just need to have had $7,500 in liability in order to receive the full credit.

Ohhhhhh, OK. That is massively different.

Back on board the EV train!

[Carpet_pissr]

Does anyone know if it's true that the very much touted EV tax credits are not so easy to come by? I recently saw something on Slickdeals talking about the re-introduced $7500 tax credit for Tesla, but in order to actually get that amount, would you have to have $7,500 in tax liability?

If you always get a refund, would this program yield any savings at all? I just seem to remember something like that as I did research a few years ago, not sure if it still applies.

My brain is thinking:
If you have a $2500 tax liability in the year that you buy an EV, even though you qualify for a tax credit UP TO $7,500, because you "only" owe $2,500, that's what you get. Maybe they rollover though, so you can get the remainder the following year(s)?

Edit: I see this is a BEV thread only?! Is there also a PHEV and HEV thread?

I think you might be conflating a refund and tax liability (but maybe not).

I absolutely was, thanks for clarifying.

[Zaxxon]

Back on board the EV train!

[em2nought]

I heard somebody mention that he has enough items in his life that require charging, and he doesn't want to add another big one to the list. You guys are smart enough and not too lazy to get charging figured out, but I'm thinking your average joe isn't going to be so lucky or inclined. I mean I thought having the internet with information available at the drop of a hat was going to make people seem smarter, but it's not seeming like that's happening. If anything people seem to know how to do less than before, changing a tire for instance.

Some people still haven't even figured out how to put gasoline in a car.

[stessier]

I think people who haven't lived with an EV make entirely too big a deal of routine charging. Assuming you install a charger at your home, it's brain dead simple. Most people in most cases will be able to get by with charging 2x/week. So make it a routine to charge daily and if you forget - no biggie, you still have 2 more days of range at a minimum. I don't think people understand what it means to have the ability to wake up to the equivalent of a full tank of gas every morning.

[Zaxxon]

I don't think people understand what it means to have the ability to wake up to the equivalent of a full tank of gas every morning.

+1.

That's not to say that it's dead-simple for everyone, in every use case. But for most people, it's just not a big deal. There's still a lot of work to be done in adding charging options at apartment complexes and street parking.

[Hrothgar]

As a counter point, a teacher who is friends with my wife called her the other day asking for a ride because she forgot to charge her Tesla. This lady is an intelligent woman, but changing habits is hard. We all may love technology. We're not necessarily a representative group.

[stessier]

As a counter point, a teacher who is friends with my wife called her the other day asking for a ride because she forgot to charge her Tesla. This lady is an intelligent woman, but changing habits is hard. We all may love technology. We're not necessarily a representative group.

There are also people who run out of gas which has always confounded me as well. I just don't get how you don't glance at your car's state when you stop the car.

[Zaxxon]

As a counter point, a teacher who is friends with my wife called her the other day asking for a ride because she forgot to charge her Tesla. This lady is an intelligent woman, but changing habits is hard. We all may love technology. We're not necessarily a representative group.

There are also people who run out of gas which has always confounded me as well. I just don't get how you don't glance at your car's state when you stop the car.

Especially in a car that will literally send you a warning if you park with a low state of charge.

That said, fully agreed that OOers are not necessarily representative of the public.

[GreenGoo]

As a counter point, a teacher who is friends with my wife called her the other day asking for a ride because she forgot to charge her Tesla. This lady is an intelligent woman, but changing habits is hard. We all may love technology. We're not necessarily a representative group.

Can you imagine how difficult it was to change from horse and buggy to automobiles? The country's entire road and highway infrastructure didn't exist yet, and let's not even discuss the hunt for fossil fuels convertible to gasoline. EVs only require some new power hookups to an electrical grid that already exists. That's it. No thousands and thousands of miles of newly paved road, no transporting and refining fuel, etc etc.

If people can't plug in their car, that's on them. Because, and I say this as gently as possible, they are idiots. To be fair, people forget things. That's not the EV's fault. Geezus.

[stessier]

As a counter point, a teacher who is friends with my wife called her the other day asking for a ride because she forgot to charge her Tesla. This lady is an intelligent woman, but changing habits is hard. We all may love technology. We're not necessarily a representative group.

There are also people who run out of gas which has always confounded me as well. I just don't get how you don't glance at your car's state when you stop the car.

Especially in a car that will literally send you a warning if you park with a low state of charge.

That said, fully agreed that OOers are not necessarily representative of the public.

People also ignore the Check Engine Light and don't change their oil - so it's not crazy they would ignore the "Plug In" warning...I'm just not sure that should be representative of anything.

[Zaxxon]

Yeah, but one of these things is not like the other. 'Check engine' and oil changes are things that typically can be put off with little to no immediate ill effect. If you ain't got the electrons or the dino juice, that's immediately a problem.

But I subscribe to GreenGoo's philosophy on both of these.

[Isgrimnur]

A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it.

[GreenGoo]

As a counter point, a teacher who is friends with my wife called her the other day asking for a ride because she forgot to charge her Tesla. This lady is an intelligent woman, but changing habits is hard. We all may love technology. We're not necessarily a representative group.

unrelated article but with stats for out of gas calls to AAA.

To get a better picture of what's really happening here, I reached out to the roadside service provider. According to AAA Public Relations Manager Andrew Gross, the organization responded to precisely 194,317 out-of-gas calls from January to April (representing 1.8 percent of all roadside assistance calls during that period). Within the same four months in 2021, AAA received 153,668 out-of-gas calls. A 26 percent year-over-year jump and surely a result of the recent skyrocket in fuel prices, right?

A reasonable conclusion if not for the fact that AAA responded to 205,549 out-of-gas calls over the same four months in 2019—pre-Ukraine war, pre-inflation, pre-COVID, pre-$5-a-gallon gas.

I see your anecdotal evidence of a single instance and raise you nearly 200 hundred thousand counter anecdotes of people running out of gas over a 4 month period of a single year. And these are only the ones who called triple A.

I think we can all agree that people are forgetful, sometimes negligent animals that often never learn from their mistakes. But sometimes they do.

Please get back to us when the Teacher friend forgets to charge again. That would be hilarious.

[Pyperkub]

I think people who haven't lived with an EV make entirely too big a deal of routine charging. Assuming you install a charger at your home, it's brain dead simple. Most people in most cases will be able to get by with charging 2x/week. So make it a routine to charge daily and if you forget - no biggie, you still have 2 more days of range at a minimum. I don't think people understand what it means to have the ability to wake up to the equivalent of a full tank of gas every morning.

And the teenagers don't have to fill the tank!

[Carpet_pissr]

Yeah, but one of these things is not like the other. 'Check engine' and oil changes are things that typically can be put off with little to no immediate ill effect. If you ain't got the electrons or the dino juice, that's immediately a problem.

If you get a Check Engine light due to oil? Your engine is likely already toast.

I'm not talking about the more modern "service engine soon" lights that remind you about upcoming oil changes due, but any kind of light coming on, due to an oil issue...very likely toast.

[Zaxxon]

Sure, but that's not what was said. The quote was 'people also ignore the check engine light and don't change their oil.' A check engine light coming on, in my 2 decades of experience with gas cars, almost always meant something minor like the gas cap not being properly sealed. Not changing your oil for longer than the manufacturer's recommendation will also typically result in no noticeable issues for quite some time.

The fact that both will eventually catch up to you is kind of the point. They will, but not in the same timeframe as letting your vehicle run out of fuel, no matter which fuel it prefers.