Gaming existential crises, anyone? Anyone?

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Blackhawk
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Gaming existential crises, anyone? Anyone?

Post by Blackhawk »

Hey, if anyone cares to read and give me feedback it would be appreciated. This is, as with some of my other threads, a stream-of-consciousness attempt to grapple with something weighing on my mind. Since I'm a fairly solitary person in real life, my support network is rather... limited.
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Warning: This rant has been brought to you today by the state of Frustration, the number zero, and the letters F and U. Our special guest was Moment of Clarity, who may be wrong, but is a huge dick regardless.

Today has been one of those days. Taking my kid to school spontaneously jumped from a 20 minute drive to a two hour drive due to idiots. Two separate support sessions with Amazon. Out of nine items due to arrive today, only two have actually been shipped, and one of them arrived destroyed due to them saving money on packaging. That took another hour. I really needed to get the racks for my miniature paints primed today. I'd decided to use my airbrush because I am trying not to spend any more money on this than I already have. I figured I had barely enough time to get it done. Naturally, the brush clogged, badly, three times. This was largely my fault, as there is a piece that need cleaned periodically that I had never realized was removable, so it had several years of dried paint in it. But I didn't find that out until later. Each time it clogged required a complete or partial break down, cleaning, and reassembly. At one point I managed to pour an entire reservoir of black paint over my hand. I was running out of time. And I was running out of paint! I'd never airbrushed for coverage before, so six racks took way more than what I'd expected. I wouldn't be able to finish priming with what I have, and the only place I can get that primer is... Amazon.

So, there I was, I'd burned through my entire stock of black primer, my hand was covered in black paint, and the airbrush was full of paint - which I couldn't leave that way. And it was ten minutes past when I needed to leave. The project was going to hell, and I was already in a bad mood from that morning. One of my thoughts was, "I've been working on this studio redesign for two weeks, and if I ruin these racks I'll have wasted all that time, effort, and money just in order to paint." And it hit me like an avalanche: Paint?

When I paint?

...

I haven't painted in a year.

...

Holy shit, did I already waste all that time and money? And what about the other time, money, and space I've given in order to keep...

...

Damn.

There was the our special guest, giant dick that he is, Moment of Clarity. I still don't know what to do about what Moment said.

See, I have been playing tabletop games for 30+ years. I picked up D&D in 1989. I was 16. I picked up miniature painting within a few months so that I'd have cool stuff to play D&D with. I later expanded into other RPGs. Then came wargames (Battle Systems, Warhammer), and with that even more miniatures to paint, plus the wargames had expanded my crafting to terrain building. Warhammer inspired me, the books filled with pictures full of amazing scratch built terrain. I could do that! Years later I added two more miniatures to my life (homemade - Michelle and I made them with sex.) In order to bring them into the amazing world of gaming, I jumped head first into the world of modern board games. Hey, even more miniatures to paint! And I painted, and I crafted, and I painted, and I crafted. After all, these games were better with painted miniatures. And RPGs were better with crafted terrain and set pieces! Those games inspired me to be creative in order to support them.

So, a little over a year ago, I formally retired from GMing RPGs. It was a combination of burnout and a realization that I wasn't having fun doing it anymore even before the burnout. Almost exactly a year ago my D&D group impoloded due to the rather extreme views (and likely mental illness related issues) of one player. And over the past two years, my two kids have decided that board gaming isn't really their cup of tea. My eldest just doesn't like it, while my youngest, now 17, is in a different phase in his life (you known, friends his age.) I know pretty much every RPGer and board gamer in town (remember, I live in a town of less than 4,000 people where people still think D&D is about Satan.) So trust me when I say this: I will not be running, nor will I be player in, any in-person RPG for the foreseeable future. We're talking years here. And board games are down to what I can play solo. That effectively neutralizes about 3/4 of my collection. And truth be told, playing by myself means that I'm honestly unlikely to actually set up any of the huge, massive campaign games full of terrain and miniatures anyway. I'm more likely to play the lighter stuff that I can run through in an afternoon.

So, what's the point?

Physical, in-person RPGs are a dead hobby for me and will be staying that way for a long time. Wargames have been gone for years (it's been a decade.) And board games are on life support. I can still play a few solo games, but on the whole it isn't enough to call it a full hobby. It's a side thing. I honestly haven't taken any but a few of my board games off of the shelf in a year, and when I do I tend to play once and then put them back. For most of this, just for simplicity, I'm going to put that hobby over there <---- and focus on the rest of the issue.

And that brings us back to painting. Painting was something I did to feed into RPGs, wargames, and board games. It was part of the process, the prep, the inspiration. But now the focus of that activity is gone. When I start to paint, there is a corner of my mind that says, "Why? To what end?" Now, I have painted a few times when hentzau has his zoom get-togethers, but that has been about the hang out, not the painting. I have only finished a couple of miniatures during that time, mostly because I was only painting for that two hours ever few weeks during the hang outs. But when have I actually painted for any other reason? I honestly don't remember. It has been well over a year, and the thing is, I never realized that.

That's a pretty big deal. You see, I still thought of myself as an RPGer, as a GM, and as a painter, even though I wasn't doing any of them. Why? It's been the one constant my entire adult life. Since I was 16, those were the things I did. Those were the passions I pursued.

And then I stopped.

And I never realized I'd stopped, because I'm always those things. RPGing and painting are what I do. Except that I now see that I don't.

So why is that a problem? Because human brains are stupid, and autistic brains like to fall into patterns and then stay there.

I have spent the past year thinking as if I were an RPGer, a full-on board gamer, a GM, and a painter. I have spent that time constantly preparing for those activities, which I then never do, never quite realizing it. What does preparing look like? It looks like time spent following news, learning new techniques, studying, following. It looks like five floor-to-ceiling book shelves full of games and books, plus one whole wall of my room dedicated to painting, plus shelves of other supplies, all in a house where I barely have room to breathe and about which I've been bitching about storage for years. It looks like money spent on Kickstarters for games I won't play, accessories I won't use, and paints I won't put on a brush. It looks like remodeling a painting area when I don't paint, spending money on wood, tools, racks, and other sundries.

I'm devoting resources as if I were rabidly following a set of hobbies that I'm not actually involved in. I'm stunned at the amount of space, time, energy, and money I have devoted in the last two years to - literally - getting ready to not do something.

I'm ashamed.

And I also wonder: How much of the past few years before all of this was the same? Remember when I said that I hadn't had fun GMing for quite a while before I quit? Have I spent the past few years have following these activities purely out of habit and momentum, rather than the real sense of joy that originally brought me to them? Looking back, it seems like it.

As a teenager, I was deeply troubled. An autistic kid who essentially raised himself, I was lonely, terrified, majorly depressed, isolated. Teenage me was desperate to get away from the real world. Escapism was his opiate. So is this even me? Or is it teenage me's drives and needs that I have chased rather than taking the time to find adult me's own interests?

I have a lot to think about.
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Re: Gaming existential crises, anyone? Anyone?

Post by Blackhawk »

The hard part is that stopping means sacrificing everything I already have invested. It means that everyone who has supported me suddenly has their efforts wasted. People have given me miniatures, games, tools. Hell, two friends gave me an all-in Kickstarter pledge for a game for Christmas that hasn't even arrived yet, and now I'd be saying I don't need it?

But if I really am done with it, if it really isn't adult me's hobby, then the money, time, space, and energy is already wasted, and I'd be throwing good money (and time, etc) after bad, plus preventing myself from finding what I really love.
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Re: Gaming existential crises, anyone? Anyone?

Post by Anonymous Bosch »

Blackhawk wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 8:06 pm The hard part is that stopping means sacrificing everything I already have invested. It means that everyone who has supported me suddenly has their efforts wasted. People have given me miniatures, games, tools. Hell, two friends gave me an all-in Kickstarter pledge for a game for Christmas that hasn't even arrived yet, and now I'd be saying I don't need it?

But if I really am done with it, if it really isn't adult me's hobby, then the money, time, space, and energy is already wasted, and I'd be throwing good money (and time, etc) after bad, plus preventing myself from finding what I really love.
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Re: Gaming existential crises, anyone? Anyone?

Post by Blackhawk »

Exactly my point. I just can't figure out if it was a mistake - or if I'm completely off my rocker.
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Re: Gaming existential crises, anyone? Anyone?

Post by dfs »

Go easy on yourself. We change and don't even recognize it sometimes. It's tough to filter out the noise from what we actually want.

I've gone through ....well not this.....but something like this several times in my life and it's always a challenge.
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Re: Gaming existential crises, anyone? Anyone?

Post by Smoove_B »

Blackhawk wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 8:33 pm Exactly my point. I just can't figure out if it was a mistake - or if I'm completely off my rocker.
Why not both?

But seriously, figure out if painting minis means anything to you *now*. Not in the context of why you were doing it, but if you get genuine enjoyment from doing it completely removed from all the other noise that was associated with you painting. If painting minis brings you peace or you just like learning new skills or having something to show for time spent on something, there's value in that. I paint minis now for me - that's it.

I guess I'm saying it's entirely possible to enjoy something for different reasons than why you started.
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Re: Gaming existential crises, anyone? Anyone?

Post by Blackhawk »

Note: This wasn't about painting. It was about tabletop gaming as a cluster of hobbies as a whole. Painting, terrain crafting, board games as more than a diversion, RPGs, and an assortment of peripheral activities.

I've been trying to approach it from a 'sunk cost' perspective. When I think about the reasons I still pursue these hobbies, how many of those reasons are about now or the future, and how many are about the past?

None are about the future. Most from the present are... questionable reasons. But I'm getting an awful lot from the past. Mostly of the 'these are the kind of thing I like' (while thinking of my youth, not my adulthood) variety. More and more I'm seeing that the child I was (most of the way through my 20s :oops: ) needed escapism because the world was too much for him to handle. I'm not that person anymore, and more and more I'm finding that I don't need that degree of escapism. Have I spent the last decade doing what I liked as a teenager because I assumed I still enjoyed it, even if I didn't? That's a scary thought, and a confounding one.

I just don't want to decide to these things behind me and then find out it was just a rough patch, a bad morning, an undigested bit of beef, a blot of mustard, a crumb of cheese, a fragment of underdone potato. Although of all of the other things I've put behind me this way, I regretted none. Nostalgically reminisced about, yes, but not regretted.
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Re: Gaming existential crises, anyone? Anyone?

Post by Smoove_B »

Pick whatever you'd like - painting, board gaming, modeling - whatever. The reasons you enjoy them now might be totally disconnected from what you enjoyed them before - it needn't be a straight line from your childhood through today.

However, if doing [X] reminds you of bad times, bad memories or bad experiences, that's a whole different story. If you're doing those things as a way to "not deal" with other things, that might be a problem; it's not my place to say. I believe all adults engage in escapism to some degree - I think it's a human thing - we need to disconnect somehow, especially now in our hyper stimulated world. I don't think escapism is a bad thing, until it is.

I guess I'm just reiterating that it's possible to have a healthy relationship with your hobbies as an adult for reasons unconnected to why you might have started hobbying in the first place. If something is bringing you happiness (and you're not hurting yourself or others) do it; if not, adjust.

I hadn't played D&D for almost 30 years and after being pressured relentlessly by some friends (a few of whom hang out here), I relented and taught myself 5E and Fantasy Grounds during a goddamn pandemic. We're still playing ~2x a month and I discovered I still enjoy it. And I'm playing now for reasons arguably unrelated to why I picked up D&D as a ~9 or 10 year old.

I guess I'd be really reluctant to encourage someone to scrap everything related to a hobby unless they were entirely sure they were done with it. I can't say I know too many people that have abandoned hobbies, so I don't exactly know what that looks like either - just completely walking away from something you enjoy...or you thought you enjoyed or did enjoy.
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Re: Gaming existential crises, anyone? Anyone?

Post by Isgrimnur »

Blackhawk wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 9:57 pm Have I spent the last decade doing what I liked as a teenager because I assumed I still enjoyed it, even if I didn't? That's a scary thought, and a confounding one.
And a pointless one. There's nothing you can do about it in any event. You have the time and ability to view things as they are now and make decisions based on that and your desires for the present and future, which, of course, may shift down the line.
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Re: Gaming existential crises, anyone? Anyone?

Post by YellowKing »

I doubt you didn't enjoy your hobbies over the last 10 years at some level, because you did them. What made sense at the time may be hard to see with current eyes, and you may be retroactively trying to lay your current feelings on the past. The only reason this struck a chord with me is my mom went through some depression related to choices she made in the past, and she said the thing that really helped her in therapy was coming to terms with the fact that she made the choices she made at the time because they were the right choice for her in that moment. It's really easy to take information we have now that we didn't have then, and beat our past selves up over it.

I don't think there should be any guilt in realizing you no longer get enjoyment from something and wish to go in a different direction, though I definitely understand it. I used to have extreme "backlog" guilt over Steam games, Kindle books, board games, you name it. I'd go so far as to create spreadsheets to check things off. It was like a full-time job, and these things that were supposed to be fun turned into chores that I dreaded. At some point in my 40s I just hit a realization that I was never going to be able to play, read, or watch everything I wanted to, and that was OK. I've sort of learned to recognize that tipping point now where "fun" turns to "work" and I immediately switch gears and move on to something else.

And I certainly don't think you need to burn your hobby to the ground. The stuff will be there. Take a break, do something else. It's either going to call you back or not. If it does, no harm no foul. And if it doesn't, then you close that chapter and move on to the next adventure.
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Re: Gaming existential crises, anyone? Anyone?

Post by Blackhawk »

Smoove_B wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 10:07 pm Pick whatever you'd like - painting, board gaming, modeling - whatever. The reasons you enjoy them now might be totally disconnected from what you enjoyed them before - it needn't be a straight line from your childhood through today.

[...]

I guess I'm just reiterating that it's possible to have a healthy relationship with your hobbies as an adult for reasons unconnected to why you might have started hobbying in the first place.
I agree, but that's the issue. I don't think I am enjoying it, and I don't think I have for a number of years. I don't look forward to it anymore. When I engage in them, I don't get drawn in. When I did do those things - even several years ago - I was always more focused on the fun I had years before than I was on the fun I was having then.
I believe all adults engage in escapism to some degree - I think it's a human thing - we need to disconnect somehow, especially now in our hyper stimulated world. I don't think escapism is a bad thing, until it is.
That's why I said, " more and more I'm finding that I don't need that degree of escapism." I didn't say none. I'm saying that when these activities entered my life, they entered my life because I needed something that was a complete escape from reality. They let an isolated, neglected kid be somewhere that wasn't the world he didn't understand, let the kid who felt totally helpless feel some control (and on and on and on - I was hurting a lot when I was a teenager.) For me, escape was constant, not on weekends, constant. My mind was there every moment. At the time it was survival. I don't think I would have made it through those years without it, and I needed it until I developed the tools to cope. But I did, and I've been shedding the old coping mechanisms ever since. Another big one (and one that felt very similar to how this does now) was when I gave up religion. It was also an escape for me and a means of control that I outgrew years and years before I left it behind.
YellowKing wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 11:09 pm I doubt you didn't enjoy your hobbies over the last 10 years at some level, because you did them.
For most people I'd agree, but I'm not a normal person. An autistic person will absolutely continue to do something they no longer enjoy, and they'll do it for years. It isn't at all unusual. We thrive on routine, and sometimes that means continuing patterns and activities long after they've outlived their usefulness. It becomes about the routine rather than the activity. It's like getting a song stuck in your head, and it's really unpleasant to unstick yourself. I've had to do it before when I realized that something that I was doing had stopped having meaning long before. And I see the same signs here. Constantly drifting from one element of it to another, never quite satisfied. Or actively pursuing elements you know you don't want to pursue just because it's what you do.
I guess I'd be really reluctant to encourage someone to scrap everything related to a hobby unless they were entirely sure they were done with it. I can't say I know too many people that have abandoned hobbies, so I don't exactly know what that looks like either - just completely walking away from something you enjoy...or you thought you enjoyed or did enjoy.
It looks like moving it all to storage for a year or two and seeing if I hit a point at which I realize that I really do desire it in my life. If so, I can go and bring it back. And if not, it may not have been all that important to begin with.
Isgrimnur wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 10:50 pm
Blackhawk wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 9:57 pm Have I spent the last decade doing what I liked as a teenager because I assumed I still enjoyed it, even if I didn't? That's a scary thought, and a confounding one.
And a pointless one.
Never pointless! Blaming myself would be pointless, but the thought is invaluable. Confronting my own psychological quirks has been one of the best tools I've had when it came to pulling myself back together. Know thyself! It has been one of my biggest projects, and one that neither I nor anybody is likely to fully achieve, but it's worth the effort.

----------------------------------------

Anyway, I appreciate the feedback. I'm not ignoring any of it (although I don't agree with all of it.) I'm digesting and considering it as I collect my thoughts and build an understanding.

I had considered depression, by the way. I've dealt with a lot of it in my life, and I'm always watching for it. The thing that stands out is that when I am dealing with depression, I don't take joy in anything. Nothing is fun. That's not the case right now at all. I'm absolutely finding joy in other things right now. I have drive and enthusiasm. I am looking forward to other activities.
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Gaming existential crises, anyone? Anyone?

Post by Zarathud »

Is it something that makes you happy or will make you happy later? Activities can be recreational but non-productive.

I started D&D in 1980 and have fallen off and on the wagon due to changing demands of school, work, and friends. I have a big miniature collection and have been erratic painting the past few months. But it’s still something I want to do because it was denied to me as a kid. I get satisfaction from periodically doing something with my hands more than my brain, improving my tabletop-ready skill, and the possibility of using them.

Usefulness is not the purpose. It’s a distraction and something that I can do that I couldn’t before. That’s satisfying.

Also, I’m pretty sure your skills could turn painting from a hobby into extra income if you wanted. I know a few people who have been using online D&D DMing to help pay some of their bills in the pandemic.
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Re: Gaming existential crises, anyone? Anyone?

Post by raydude »

Just wanted to chime in and say I cared to read and that you should definitely feel free to post thoughts here if for nothing else than to keep them from rattling around in your mind with no outlet.

As for feedback:
Blackhawk wrote:It looks like moving it all to storage for a year or two and seeing if I hit a point at which I realize that I really do desire it in my life. If so, I can go and bring it back. And if not, it may not have been all that important to begin with.
That's not a half-bad idea as long as you don't let guilt hang over you while a hobby is in storage. I do something similar in that I rotate between my different gaming hobbies according to what I feel like doing. The difference is that I don't really think about why I'm doing it other than to say to myself "I don't feel like doing that right now." I can say that for me it's a pleasant surprise when a hobby I thought I couldn't go back to piques my interest again enough for me to start playing it.

As an example, I really didn't think I had the patience or mindset to go back to playing a rules heavy wargame like "Fields of Fire". But then discussion of the game in the solo boardgame forum re-kindled my interest. So I got the boardgame off the shelf, dusted it off (haven't played it in over 10 years), and explored it again. I downloaded the latest rulebook off the internet. Found an online "boot camp" with articles and resources for how to play, downloaded the Vassal module, and started playing it again.

Meanwhile, a game I was playing before this (Quantum Break) has gone back into the vault of "I'll pick it up again later" while I play through and enjoy my boardgame. Why did I stop playing QB when I was having so much fun and enjoying the story? Not sure. Maybe because my daughter is currently learning WW2 and I'm re-igniting my interest in it through her interest in it. In any case, I'm still having fun now, just with a different genre.

The point being - don't let the fact that a hobby is in storage make you feel guilt or worse, make you think you don't desire it anymore. Just let it be in storage. If it happens to come back to you after 10+ years (as in my case) then so much the better.
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Re: Gaming existential crises, anyone? Anyone?

Post by Blackhawk »

raydude wrote: Thu May 13, 2021 7:20 am Just wanted to chime in and say I cared to read and that you should definitely feel free to post thoughts here if for nothing else than to keep them from rattling around in your mind with no outlet.
I appreciate your (and everyone's) reading.

Many of these... odd posts I sometimes make are for that reason. Getting the thoughts sorted and offered for public consumption forces me to look at them differently than pondering them in my head or even writing them in a journal would. I've made a few realizations simply from noticing what makes me uncomfortable or what I'm trying to avoid talking about. And the feedback always helps. The posts themselves don't always convey the nuance that is my screwball mind, so sometimes it will seem like I'm ignoring or arguing a point that will seem like the obvious solution to others, when in fact it isn't a solution at all for reasons that might not make sense to others. I always feel awkward when that happens, as I don't want people to think their efforts aren't appreciated.

What I can be certain of at this point:
  • I haven't pursued physical RPG play in over a year, and will not for some years to come. And I'm not sure I was really enjoying them during the last few years I was playing them. I was enjoying the idea of them, and I was enjoying the people I played with, but not the games themselves.
  • I haven't been a 'board gamer' in the hobby sense in at least a year. I've been a collector with the 'this will be the kind of game I'll like when I finally settle down and start playing' mentality. That's not a healthy mentality, especially when it involves limited resources. What's changed is that I've realized that the 'when I finally' isn't something that I'm certain is going to happen.
  • I haven't painted a miniature, save for a few during chats, in over a year. I haven't painted a miniature because I wanted to in a number of years. Mostly I was painted what I had to have done for the next RPG session, and I was forcing myself to do that.
  • I have discovered other things that I actually enjoy doing in that time (for example, I'm really enjoying working out as bizarre as that sounds to my own ears.) I am also full of drive and enthusiasm to create... something. I have that creative urge that I need an outlet for and am foaming at the bit to start. And yet, at the same time, the idea of mini painting doesn't speak to that desire at all.
  • This is a 30-year hobby. It may have simply run its course, and it may not have. I'm not burning bridges, I'm not selling my stuff on ebay, I'm just thinking of retiring it for an extended period - as in completely out of the house - to see if that's so. After all, I've already taken a one-year break from it, and the urge hasn't been there. The habit has been there, but not the urge.
  • Autistic minds are different. Sometimes we have to manipulate ourselves differently from the way other people do to make our minds behave.
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Re: Gaming existential crises, anyone? Anyone?

Post by baelthazar »

So, to a certain extent, I see where you are coming from. I am a collector - I seem to derive as much pleasure from getting board games, looking at the pieces, playing with the minis, displaying the minis, and preserving the games as I do playing them (well, not totally true, I love playing games). I also "mentally" play games - getting a lot of joy from reading strategies, reading about builds/moves/exploits, watching playthroughs and reviews, and thinking about how I might apply these when I play them. I rarely get to play tabletop games that are not solo these days, and I get my D&D fix from a semi-weekly Zoom D&D session with work friends (which needs none of the physical materials and we play semi-loose with the rules). I have TONS of RPG rule books for games I will never play (Cypher, City of Mist, Paladin, etc.). I also own HUNDREDS of dollars of Warhammer 40K minis, but have never played a single game.

I began to realize, particularly with video games, that I own so many of them that I could play each one from start to finish and likely never finish them. I also tend to go back to endless video games, like Stellaris, which prevents playing story games to conclusion. That led me to be much more selective about the games I have been buying.

Lastly, I have extreme FOMO. I tend to get sucked into Kickstarters where the game is not going to retail because I don't want to miss exclusive content. Mixing that with my love of collecting and you get a completionist mindest that gets preyed upon by Kickstarter.

Now - to your point - the pandemic F'ed me up pretty bad. Not being able to do in person gaming was a huge hit (my work colleagues played Magic at lunch). My wife also got a bit messed up by the pandemic and rarely plays games with me (she occasionally will play Wingspan or something like that). Add to this the fact that my daughter is now five and time is pretty tight. If I play a solo game, I either do it in spurts as a break working from home or late in the evening after everyone else goes to bed. I have to be pretty strategic and make decisions with my time.

So, what have I learned that may apply to your case:
  • It is ok to let go of things. I looked over my collection and said, if I haven't played this since I got it, then it's time to let go. I sold off a ton of stuff on eBay, making quite a bit of money. I regretted some of my sales, but I focused more on the things I did want to keep.
  • I made goals based on my collection - saying that I would play (solo or otherwise) a certain number of games a certain number of times in the year. Right now it is 10 games x10 plays list, but that may be a bit ambitious. This led me to discover that I was often resistant not to playing a game, but to setting it up and learning it. The exhaustion of life made me reticent to try something new, because I didn't want to invest my limited time in it. But once I got over that hurdle, I found great joy - for example, getting over the learning curve for Anachrony made it jump to one of my favorite games.
  • Similarly, I faced some "fears" I had and invested time in things I wanted to do otherwise. I always wanted to learn how to make cheese, make pasta, make yogurt, and bake bread. So I got over myself and started to get into it. Cheese making was a flop, but the others were great. My latest acquisition of an airbrush was another example - I always wanted to do this, but was too afraid. My next thing is to get into writing fiction.
  • As others said, the way we feel changes, and that is ok. I still love gaming, but I am becoming content in what I am doing. If baking a good loaf of cinnamon break prevents me from playing a game, I am happy having the loaf. I don't kick myself for not always getting to my collection.
  • I have great hopes for my daughter. She LOVES gaming already and some of my games are going to sit until she is old enough to play them. If she isn't interested, they get sold. But I am okay with waiting.
So I am not sure that rant is germane to what you are saying, other than to in some ways commiserate and say how I have dealt with the changing nature of my own approach to my hobbies. I am trying to get more discerning (the pandemic did not help with that, as it triggered my collecting impulse) and be ok with letting things go. Like others said, enjoy what you are doing now and - should something change - you can always go back to your old haunts.
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Re: Gaming existential crises, anyone? Anyone?

Post by gilraen »

Blackhawk wrote: Thu May 13, 2021 9:31 am [*]I have discovered other things that I actually enjoy doing in that time (for example, I'm really enjoying working out as bizarre as that sounds to my own ears.) I am also full of drive and enthusiasm to create... something. I have that creative urge that I need an outlet for and am foaming at the bit to start. And yet, at the same time, the idea of mini painting doesn't speak to that desire at all.
Not everything you do has to be "enjoyable". You could literally make a not-inconsiderable side income painting miniatures for sale, since you already have the skill for it (and quite a bit of painting supplies already on hand, from the sound of it).
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Re: Gaming existential crises, anyone? Anyone?

Post by gbasden »

One thing that struck me is that a large part of the circumstances you mentioned involves other people. It's perfectly fine to change your hobbies, but I do wonder if the larger part of the problem is that you don't enjoy the hobbies, or that you don't have the right people there to share them with. I ask only because I dropped out of boardgaming for about a decade before I made a new set of friends where we play a few times a week now.

I have the opposite problem of getting deeply and expensively enmeshed in a hobby, then getting distracted by something else and wandering away. I think your introspection is awesome, and something I need to do more of. I would concur that you should think about putting anything that isn't making you actively happy into storage and then see how you feel in a year or two. I wouldn't worry about gifts - if someone gave you something it was because they wanted to make you happy. If you decide to store it or even sell it and use the money to get something that now makes you happy, that's perfectly fine.

I admire the insights you've been sharing with us recently - I wish I had the time, or brain space, or clearness of thought to have the epiphanies you've been seeing.
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Re: Gaming existential crises, anyone? Anyone?

Post by gbasden »

gilraen wrote: Thu May 13, 2021 5:26 pm
Blackhawk wrote: Thu May 13, 2021 9:31 am [*]I have discovered other things that I actually enjoy doing in that time (for example, I'm really enjoying working out as bizarre as that sounds to my own ears.) I am also full of drive and enthusiasm to create... something. I have that creative urge that I need an outlet for and am foaming at the bit to start. And yet, at the same time, the idea of mini painting doesn't speak to that desire at all.
Not everything you do has to be "enjoyable". You could literally make a not-inconsiderable side income painting miniatures for sale, since you already have the skill for it (and quite a bit of painting supplies already on hand, from the sound of it).
Also yes - I have a number of minis that I would love to get painted since I will never find the time to do it and develop the skill like I thought I would. But the market for that skill is huge.
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Re: Gaming existential crises, anyone? Anyone?

Post by hentzau »

gbasden wrote: Thu May 13, 2021 8:20 pm ...I do wonder if the larger part of the problem is that you don't enjoy the hobbies, or that you don't have the right people there to share them with.
Or the people to share the burden with. From everything you were talking about before, you were taking the burden of all of your groups hobby work. If you had a compatible group show up with a DM that would run everything and you just had to show up and play (other issues aside) would you enjoy that?

(And I'm not doubting your feelings for a moment. Just making conversation. :) And even if you do decide to chuck it all, I still hope you make it to an Octocon someday.)
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Re: Gaming existential crises, anyone? Anyone?

Post by Isgrimnur »

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It's almost as if people are the problem.
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Re: Gaming existential crises, anyone? Anyone?

Post by Blackhawk »

Honestly, I have thought about painting for pay a number of times. A few times I actually have done them for other people as a favor. Two problems always reared their heads:

1. I'm not a fast painter. When I post the pictures of the pro-looking miniatures, I'm posting many, many hours of work. I figured out the going rate one time and what would be a respectable income for a fast painter came out to like a buck fifty an hour for me.
2. It really pushed my anxiety, and hard. I am seriously insecure about the quality of my work, whether it is miniatures or cleaning the house or anything else (remember that this is a emotional response, not a rational thought) and absolutely obsess over every flaw and imperfection. It is absolutely exhausting when I paint for others, and I'm on edge the whole time.

#1 I could probably solve with a few months focused on efficiency, but #2 is a problem that I've been trying to solve for 20 years, including with professional help, and have made very little headway. It's not just miniatures I'm that way about, and is one of the main reasons I'm still on disability.
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Re: Gaming existential crises, anyone? Anyone?

Post by baelthazar »

I agree. I have thought about painting and selling minis, but never felt mine were good enough. I am also way slower than I would want to be.

My wife had some bad experiences doing wool spinning and knitting commissions, so that scared me off of painting for pay.
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Re: Gaming existential crises, anyone? Anyone?

Post by Lorini »

You could paint for pay. Many wargamers/RPGers don't care how long it'll take you, so as long as you're up front about a delivery date, however long that might be, it'd be fine.

I used to date a guy who had painted 29,000 miniatures over his 65 year old life time, so no need to feel bad about painting :). He had cabinets and more cabinets of all his painted minis.
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Re: Gaming existential crises, anyone? Anyone?

Post by Blackhawk »

So, I've spent the last few days pondering all of this, discussing it with family, and bouncing parts of it off of 'hobby' friends. I've come to understand a few things.

First of all, I think what led to this was was a change in mindset I've been making. Short version, I've changed how I look at what I do and what I have, and have learned to be more honest with myself about what I am and am not likely to do, as opposed to what I used to do or what I thing I might, maybe, someday possibly do. I've also learned to give more honest thought to what I actually enjoy, as opposed to what I used to enjoy, or what I think I should enjoy.

I started this thread at the end of a miserable day that left me stressed and angry. I know not to make choices in that kind of mood, or big decisions without thought. Then again, this didn't come out of nowhere. It is an ongoing part of some changes and realizations I've been making this year, the same year in which I have finally gotten my brain unstuck from something that was holding me back and keeping me from thinking clearly. It's the year in which I've lost more than 30 pounds, have gotten in the best shape I've been in since college, and have gotten more done that I have in a very, very long time.

Still, I gave it a few days that started with my getting my thoughts together in this thread, then involved a lot of introspection, some walks, a lot of reading and digesting (including this thread), some time spent sitting and looking at my stuff and considering, and some chats with people. Here is where I ended up:
  • I have changed. It isn't just tabletop, either. Over the past decade the kind of person I am has shifted dramatically. While single for the first time in my life I grew to know myself, become comfortable and honest with who I am, including my strengths and weaknesses. My mind and thoughts - my psychology - is different. I no longer have the same wants or needs I used to. And yet most of what I do is leftovers from before that, adopted to suit the needs of a different person. Think about that: essentially nothing I do is related to the adult version of me at all.
  • Autistic people resist change (sorry, most writing about autism is about kids.) Rather than my life changing as my mind did, I stayed locked into the old routines, despite no longer enjoying many of them. This has manifested in all sorts of activities, from what I read to how I watch TV to how I play video games to, well, the topic of this thread. Generally it has manifested as stress and general dissatisfaction, pushing myself to keep the routines despite often not wanting to. And I thought I was relatively self-aware! Brains are stupid.
  • I actually do have enthusiasm for other activities that aren't part of the old routines. I have things I have been wanting to learn, skills I've been wanting to develop. Why haven't I? No time, space, or money. Why? Because I was devoting those things to the old routines that didn't actually appeal to me.
So, what am I actually doing?

On miniatures.

I am not giving up miniature painting. Rather, I am expanding it. I mentioned skills I've been enthusiastic to learn. I'm a creative person. I've been intrigued by the idea of learning to use my airbrush properly, which drew me to other artistic interests. I'd need to understand color, which means understanding value, which means understanding volumes, which you learn by... drawing. And I'm intrigued by the idea of sculpting, which leads to anatomy, volumes, and back again, to drawing. And learning to draw properly actually sounds like a lot of fun (and work), and feeds into so many other artistic creative outlets, such as painting. And including, possibly, miniature painting, but from an artistic rather than practical angle. I'm also intrigued by the idea of making... things. Creating objects. I just don't know what that means yet. Prop reproduction, for example, looks like a ton of fun. And a lot of these activities can make use of the tools, materials, skills, and spaces I already have.

I don't know exactly what I want to do, and that's fine. It means I get to sample and experiment, and that's the most exciting option of all. And I may not choose to pursue any of it, or end up somewhere else entirely, and that's fine too.

So, rather than getting rid of everything miniature related, I'm going to relegate it to a part of a larger skillset, put it aside for now, and come back to it when I am ready to approach it from a different angle. So:
  • I'm finishing my remodel of my painting area, pretty much the same way as before, but with the mental image of a generalized workshop/studio than as a dedicated miniature painting space.
  • I'm giving myself two shoebox sized containers (my unpainted collection currently comprises 22 of these, plus large models.) Into those I will place all of the miniatures that 'spark joy', that I find interesting enough to maybe paint for the sake of painting. The rest will be put into storage. They'll be there if I reach a point that I need them.
  • All of my painted miniatures will be put into storage. They're there for tabletop RPGs, which I don't play.
  • No more buying unless I'm actually painting regularly again.
On RPGs

This one was the easiest. I quit GMing even before things hit the fan with my group, mostly because I wasn't having fun anymore. It is not likely that I'll find a group prior to relocating, and our relocation plans are currently limited to 'some day.' I am currently playing in an online Pathfinder 2 campaign once a month. That aspect of the hobby is still available. But physical, in-person RPGing isn't a part of my life right now, nor do I plan for it to be anytime soon, and I don't feel much of a loss when it comes to that. So:
  • I'm pulling out all of the books that have some purpose beyond actually playing, plus a couple that are collectible, and a couple that have sentimental value. I did this last night. It represents about a six-inch stack of books.
  • I will be checking with Noble Knight to see if it is worth getting rid of a few of my rarer books that don't hold any real meaning to me. Stuff that I just found somewhere and stuck on the shelf, mostly old -Series modules.
  • The rest are going into storage. That represents a shelf 3 feet wide, 6 1/2 feet tall, plus another foot stacked on top.
  • i will be doing the same with accessories. Those that have some other use will be set aside, those that are junk will be trashed, and the rest will be stored.
On board games

This one was actually the hardest. It's the most recent addition (I got my first non-mainstream board game nine years and ten months ago), and it has had the most significant recent investment (I still have half a dozen games or game related accessories pending from crowdfunding.) It's also that has the highest potential to draw me back in the soonest, especially as I clear time in my life. So:
  • There are a few that are 'family standards' that are nice to have on hand, the ones that get pulled out on those rare nights when others want to play. It's a short list, so I'm going to set those aside.
  • There are some solo or solo-friendly games that I have that either really appeal based on theme, or that were non-impulse buys (the games I'm most likely to play if the urge does strike.) I'm setting those aside.
  • The rest are going into storage. This is mostly games that are so large, long, or complex that getting them out is a chore (hi, Mage Knight), games that have gameplay that I like, but some element that I don't so they never get played (hi, Shadowrun Crossfire with your insane difficulty), or games that I got tired of/just didn't like much.
  • In a year or so I'll pull them out and give them a look. Any that still don't appeal, or any that I completely forgot I had I will consider selling. (General rule - if you forgot you had something, it probably wasn't all that important to begin with.)
  • I will stop buying effing games. FU FOMO.
I figure I will go from two full floor-to-ceiling storage shelves of games to two or three shelves of them. Enough that I can still play, and enough to be able to tell if I've really gotten back into that particular hobby again. But not so much that I feel pressured to play them, guilt if I don't, or that they're otherwise taking up brain space I could be using for something else.

It all seems like a reasonable approach that lets me test the waters without burning the bridges, gives me some wiggle room, and lets me test if I've really come back to something.
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Re: Gaming existential crises, anyone? Anyone?

Post by Blackhawk »

And again, long posts really do help me clean up my thoughts and organize them without the static.
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Re: Gaming existential crises, anyone? Anyone?

Post by Blackhawk »

Hey, just to be clear: personal crises are the best. They suck, but they're the best.

See, when you get done, your life is better. They force you to shed what doesn't work in order to find out what does. They expose raw truths that can be painful, but if you don't hide from it, those truths teach us who we really are and what we really need. Every time I suddenly realize something isn't for me, I take one step closer to understanding myself, and one step away from what's held me back.

The death of my father. My divorce that left me in ruins for a year. Losing my religion. Cancer. These were some of the most beneficial things that ever happened to me. All of them made me healthier, happier, and stronger.

So, despite the frustration in that first post, I'm not suffering here. I'm elated.
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Re: Gaming existential crises, anyone? Anyone?

Post by Fardaza »

Blackhawk wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 2:30 pm And again, long posts really do help me clean up my thoughts and organize them without the static.
I like reading your posts! It makes me think about my priorities and choices.
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Re: Gaming existential crises, anyone? Anyone?

Post by Blackhawk »

Fardaza wrote: Tue May 18, 2021 7:45 pm
Blackhawk wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 2:30 pm And again, long posts really do help me clean up my thoughts and organize them without the static.
I like reading your posts! It makes me think about my priorities and choices.
I am proud to be your cautionary tale! :horse:
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Re: Gaming existential crises, anyone? Anyone?

Post by Blackhawk »

Today I was sorting my miniatures. As I mentioned earlier, the goal was to pick out two boxes worth that had a strong appeal to keep out while I put the rest into the deep, dark confines of my closet. I started with 22 boxes. I got it down to exactly two, with the rest stored in two totes (one for painted, one for unpainted), plus a couple of small boxes stored separately.

I noticed one thing as I was sorting that explained how I got so fed up and burned out. My approach was to look at each piece, and set those aside that looked cool or inspired me. Those that I looked at and immediately thought, "I could paint this one this way..." But as I started sorting I kept having this thought pop up: "I can't use this." I'd grab a dwarf jester. This would be fun - stodgy dwarf, give him a ruddy nose and a stern look, but bright, garish jester colors. But then my brain said, "But I'll never need that in a game." At the same time, I'd pick up a pack full of 30 orcs and think, "These would be useful", despite the fact that they looked absolutely tedious to paint.

I'd known before that I was, but it really sank home that for most of the past decade I've been painting based entirely on the need. Every piece I picked to work on was based on what was needed for an upcoming game, usually with a deadline attached to it ("I need five of these by Saturday's game!"), often with a color scheme that was defined in advance by this bestiary or that. I realized that I was sitting there deliberately turning down the pieces that made me happy because they weren't practical enough, and was trying to get myself to paint dull, tedious pieces instead. That's not a hobby. That's a job.

No wonder I quit having fun.

It also suggests that a thorough palette cleansing (the metaphorical type) may very well let me come back to it with the proper perspective.
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Re: Gaming existential crises, anyone? Anyone?

Post by Scuzz »

I have played golf for most of my life. It was fun, got me out of the house and put me with friends for 4-5 hours. Over the last several years my friends have disappeared and I really only have 1 guy I play with and I have realized, rather surprisingly, that I don't miss playing that much. True I am not as good as I used to be and not as constistent, and that has dampered my enthusiasm but I only seemed to enjoy the people more than the game, and maybe the time it was consuming.

Life changes and the things we value change. With my coming retirement I feel a need to find things to do, to make my days worthwhile. It may be a challenge.
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