Octopus Overlords

Zenn7 wrote: ↑Sat Oct 22, 2022 8:07 am

stessier wrote: ↑Sat Oct 22, 2022 3:13 am I think there are a total of four cases. The first one was declined for review. The second just had a stay issued. After that there are still two others.

Where were all these suing a-holes when the government was making bad tax decisions and throwing away money and whatever else is their problem when the government was forgiving the payday loans? (Yeah, I know, in line to get their loans forgiven...)

PPP ("Paycheck Protection Program") loans. And they were never true loans, they're were inherently not subject to repayment. You don't think they'd count on forgiveness, do you? It was baked in from the start.


Payday loans are a different beast, they're private sector, predatory loans targeted at the poor.

Who wants to play
Follow the Money?

Jan 3 (Reuters) - University of California's fund manager said on Tuesday it will invest $4 billion in Blackstone Inc's (BX.N) real estate fund, barely a month after the asset manager limited withdrawals from the fund due to a surge in redemptions.

U of C putting $4B into BX.N garbage that professionals are fleeing ...seems like a good way for Blackstone to shift liability to the public ledger.

2018

The UC Office of the President (UCOP) is ignoring accusations of department mismanagement against UC Chief Investment Officer Jagdeep Singh Bachher.

In his role as CIO, Bachher oversees all investments for the UC system—over $100 billion worth—and has unilateral power to make decisions. In September, several former employees alleged that Bachher mistreated his employees and made decisions without support from his advisors.

These accusations were first published by Leanna Orr, deputy editor of Institutional Investor, in an article written after seven months of investigating.

UCOP and the Board of Regents have stated that they will not investigate the allegations against Bachher because they believe the allegations are misrepresentative of Bachher’s leadership.

Is the student loan debt forgiveness pretty much dead?

I know there is some court battles and such still going on but no one is expecting this to actually happen still, right?

Zenn7 wrote: ↑Wed Jan 11, 2023 1:24 pm Is the student loan debt forgiveness pretty much dead?

I know there is some court battles and such still going on but no one is expecting this to actually happen still, right?

I never would have expected it to happen in the first place the way Biden and co. went about it.

Loan cancellation is probably dead but long-term loan forgiveness changes are coming. It'll help for some time but at risk of another administration coming along and pulling the rug out from folks in our very stable policy environment.

The Education Department on Tuesday released long-awaited details on a piece of President Biden’s student loan debt plan that would enable millions of borrowers to cut their monthly federal payments by more than half — perhaps the most consequential component of the president’s broader initiative to make the loan system more manageable.

The Education Department’s proposed rules would revise one of its existing income-driven repayment plans — known as REPAYE — in which borrowers’ monthly payments are tied to their income and family size, and after a set number of years, any remaining debt is forgiven.

Unlike Mr. Biden’s one-time initiative to cancel up to $20,000 in federal debt, which has been stymied by legal challenges, the new repayment plan would become a permanent fixture of the student loan infrastructure and apply to current and future borrowers.

The latest iteration of REPAYE will be the most affordable of the five existing plans, the first of which became available in 1995. Like the others, it doesn’t do anything to slow the rising cost of higher education, instead providing a new way to cope.

pr0ner wrote: ↑Wed Jan 11, 2023 1:25 pm

Zenn7 wrote: ↑Wed Jan 11, 2023 1:24 pm Is the student loan debt forgiveness pretty much dead?

I know there is some court battles and such still going on but no one is expecting this to actually happen still, right?

I never would have expected it to happen in the first place the way Biden and co. went about it.

One could dream. I wasn't extremely optimistic, but my kid was more naive/hopeful (understandable, being it's his debt).

Thanks for that info Malchior. Not as exciting as debt cancellation, but it may come into play if it's still around when my kid graduates.

I'm assuming it will take a revolution or total economic collapse or some other such radical event to get insane college costs meaningfully revisited (which is no guarantee they would be better, just the only chance something might be done about them).

BI

Arizona just dismissed one of the first conservative-backed lawsuits that sought to block President Joe Biden's student-loan forgiveness.

At the end of August, Biden announced up to $20,000 in student-debt relief for federal borrowers making under $125,000 a year — and lawsuits followed shortly after. One of those lawsuits was filed on September 30 by Arizona's then-attorney general, Mark Brnovich, a Republican who argued canceling student debt is unfair and would harm the state by making it harder to recruit lawyers through the Public Service Loan Forgiveness (PSLF) program.

It was the third lawsuit filed that attempted to block the relief, and on Friday, Arizona's new Democratic attorney general Kris Mayes dismissed the case. Mayes took office earlier this month, and she indicated that she would be reviewing whether to continue her predecessor's legal challenge to Biden's broad debt relief.

Notably, this case was slower-moving than the other legal challenges to Biden's plan. Two other lawsuits succeeded in pausing the implementation of Biden's debt relief, and those cases are now headed to the Supreme Court, which will hear the oral arguments on February 28.

That's sad popcorn, by the way. It's sounding like it's sunk, and was sunk before the hearing started. It's not about what the law says, it's about how they can reinterpret the law to achieve the ends that they prefer.

The smart thing for Democrats would be to add this to a list of grievances to air for 2024. They need to show they tried to help folks and the GOP took it away. Use it to drive young people to the polls.

Blackhawk wrote: ↑Tue Feb 28, 2023 4:20 pm

That's sad popcorn, by the way. It's sounding like it's sunk, and was sunk before the hearing started. It's not about what the law says, it's about how they can reinterpret the law to achieve the ends that they prefer.

This is ultimately why trust and ultimately the legitimacy of the Supreme Court has collapsed. The NY Times can talk about how 'skeptical' they are -- a NY Times pitchbot headline if I've ever heard one! -- but Americans by and large have decent awareness what is going on. The problem is we can't do anything about it and eventually that will be a factor if/when this system eventually boils over.

Leave payments on hold, dare the next GOP President to re-start them.

Law and Crime

The U.S. Supreme Court has refused to block the Biden administration’s $6 billion settlement with scammed student borrowers Thursday in a ruling that closes the loop on at least some of the diploma mill fraud claims that were found to have been mishandled by embattled Donald Trump education secretary Betsy DeVos.

Three for-profit colleges — Everglades College, Lincoln Educational Services Corp., and American National University — had asked the high court to step in and halt a settlement between nearly 200,000 borrowers whose debt was discharged as part of the “borrower defense rule.” In a two-line order issued Thursday, the Court denied the request to stay the payout.

52-46, Senate votes to end President Biden's student loan forgiveness program, with Sens. Manchin, Tester and Sinema voting with Republicans. Resolution goes to Biden, who has vowed to veto it

Note that student loan rates will be increasing in June as well, to a ridiculous (IMO) 5.5% or higher IIRC.

Carpet_pissr wrote: ↑Thu Jun 01, 2023 4:34 pm Note that student loan rates will be increasing in June as well, to a ridiculous (IMO) 5.5% or higher IIRC.

That only applies to new loans and is a fixed rate.

It's ridiculous when compared to free money.

Carpet_pissr wrote:Note that student loan rates will be increasing in June as well, to a ridiculous (IMO) 5.5% or higher IIRC.

While not exactly good, 5.5% isn't as bad as it's been in the past. 15 years ago, the average was around 7%, and if you go back to the late 90s, you were looking at 8% or more. Unfortunately, we now have dramatically higher average debt compared to back then, so it has become ridiculous.

disarm wrote: ↑Thu Jun 01, 2023 7:47 pm

Carpet_pissr wrote:Note that student loan rates will be increasing in June as well, to a ridiculous (IMO) 5.5% or higher IIRC.

While not exactly good, 5.5% isn't as bad as it's been in the past. 15 years ago, the average was around 7%, and if you go back to the late 90s, you were looking at 8% or more. Unfortunately, we now have dramatically higher average debt compared to back then, so it has become ridiculous.

I WISH the PLUS loans were going for 5.5% to 7%.

disarm wrote: ↑Thu Jun 01, 2023 7:47 pm

Carpet_pissr wrote:Note that student loan rates will be increasing in June as well, to a ridiculous (IMO) 5.5% or higher IIRC.

While not exactly good, 5.5% isn't as bad as it's been in the past. 15 years ago, the average was around 7%, and if you go back to the late 90s, you were looking at 8% or more. Unfortunately, we now have dramatically higher average debt compared to back then, so it has become ridiculous.

Compare average tuition today vs even 10 years ago, much less 15. Not even in the same ballpark.

Carpet_pissr wrote: ↑Thu Jun 01, 2023 11:47 pm

disarm wrote: ↑Thu Jun 01, 2023 7:47 pm

Carpet_pissr wrote:Note that student loan rates will be increasing in June as well, to a ridiculous (IMO) 5.5% or higher IIRC.

While not exactly good, 5.5% isn't as bad as it's been in the past. 15 years ago, the average was around 7%, and if you go back to the late 90s, you were looking at 8% or more. Unfortunately, we now have dramatically higher average debt compared to back then, so it has become ridiculous.

Compare average tuition today vs even 10 years ago, much less 15. Not even in the same ballpark.

Cheaper loans mean people are more willing to pay higher principals. Subsidized loans aren't the only reason tuitions are out of control but they're certainly a part of it. As is any debt forgiveness.

Carpet_pissr wrote: ↑Thu Jun 01, 2023 11:47 pm

disarm wrote: ↑Thu Jun 01, 2023 7:47 pm

Carpet_pissr wrote:Note that student loan rates will be increasing in June as well, to a ridiculous (IMO) 5.5% or higher IIRC.

While not exactly good, 5.5% isn't as bad as it's been in the past. 15 years ago, the average was around 7%, and if you go back to the late 90s, you were looking at 8% or more. Unfortunately, we now have dramatically higher average debt compared to back then, so it has become ridiculous.

Compare average tuition today vs even 10 years ago, much less 15. Not even in the same ballpark.

I'm not sure why this is relevant to the interest rate. It certainly matters for how hard they are to payoff, but the interest rate has nothing to do with the size of the loan.

My comment was intended to reference how already difficult to pay loans will be harder to pay off with higher rates.

An exponentially higher total loan balance due to higher tuition than the referenced 10-15 or more years ago significantly increases the burden.

How hard they are to pay off is kinda important, no?

stessier wrote: ↑Fri Jun 02, 2023 8:22 am

Carpet_pissr wrote: ↑Thu Jun 01, 2023 11:47 pm

disarm wrote: ↑Thu Jun 01, 2023 7:47 pm

Carpet_pissr wrote:Note that student loan rates will be increasing in June as well, to a ridiculous (IMO) 5.5% or higher IIRC.

While not exactly good, 5.5% isn't as bad as it's been in the past. 15 years ago, the average was around 7%, and if you go back to the late 90s, you were looking at 8% or more. Unfortunately, we now have dramatically higher average debt compared to back then, so it has become ridiculous.

Compare average tuition today vs even 10 years ago, much less 15. Not even in the same ballpark.

I'm not sure why this is relevant to the interest rate. It certainly matters for how hard they are to payoff, but the interest rate has nothing to do with the size of the loan.

People shop by looking at future monthly payments, not total cost of the loan. Lower rates mean they can "afford" higher tuition. Same with cars and houses.

There’s a reason people selling cars and (less so in my experience) houses want to talk only about that monthly payment.

Hell, I’ve had co-workers here, recently tell me what a great deal they got on a recent car purchase. They were so hoodwinked by the sales process that they even conveyed how much they ‘got’ the car for using the monthly payment number instead of the cost! I just shook my head…:D

As long as that monthly rate is doable for them, financially, it’s like nothing else matters.

But we’re getting way off topic here, sorry.

LawBeefaroni wrote: ↑Fri Jun 02, 2023 12:29 pm

stessier wrote: ↑Fri Jun 02, 2023 8:22 am

Carpet_pissr wrote: ↑Thu Jun 01, 2023 11:47 pm

disarm wrote: ↑Thu Jun 01, 2023 7:47 pm

Carpet_pissr wrote:Note that student loan rates will be increasing in June as well, to a ridiculous (IMO) 5.5% or higher IIRC.

While not exactly good, 5.5% isn't as bad as it's been in the past. 15 years ago, the average was around 7%, and if you go back to the late 90s, you were looking at 8% or more. Unfortunately, we now have dramatically higher average debt compared to back then, so it has become ridiculous.

Compare average tuition today vs even 10 years ago, much less 15. Not even in the same ballpark.

I'm not sure why this is relevant to the interest rate. It certainly matters for how hard they are to payoff, but the interest rate has nothing to do with the size of the loan.

People shop by looking at future monthly payments, not total cost of the loan. Lower rates mean they can "afford" higher tuition. Same with cars and houses.

That isn't how people "shop" for school loans though generally. People generally apply to schools - knowing roughly how much it'll cost -- and then have to go through the financial aid process to even know what they might be spending. It's complicated enough that it is very easy to disconnect it with some future payment especially since this process is repeated and spread across multiple years. This is probably the one financial product where the interest might have the least influence on any "spending" decision.

LawBeefaroni wrote: ↑Fri Jun 02, 2023 12:29 pmFinancially-illiterate [p]eople shop by looking at future monthly payments, not total cost of the loan. Lower rates mean they can "afford" higher tuition. Same with cars and houses.

FTFY.

malchior wrote: ↑Fri Jun 02, 2023 1:28 pm That isn't how people "shop" for school loans though generally. People generally apply to schools - knowing roughly how much it'll cost -- and then have to go through the financial aid process to even know what they might be spending. It's complicated enough that it is very easy to disconnect it with some future payment especially since this process is repeated and spread across multiple years. This is probably the one financial product where the interest might have the least influence on any "spending" decision.

That, keeping in mind that it's largely done by kids who don't have experience in practical financial decisions, who see 'five years from now' as the distant future, and who still think that the art degree they're wanting to get is going to have them in galleries on Time's Square by then.

I have little sympathy for people who are intelligent enough to go to college, but don't understand loans and interest. It's not they aren't capable, it's that they don't care.

Somebody call Guinness. I think we have a new winner.

noxiousdog wrote: ↑Mon Jun 05, 2023 11:23 pm I have little sympathy for people who are intelligent enough to go to college, but don't understand loans and interest. It's not they aren't capable, it's that they don't care.

I don't know how it works now, but I took out my loans right after high school, and intelligent or not, I had been taught absolutely nothing about financial planning at that point in my life.

And those loans are usually taken out a half a decade before the person's brain - especially the portion associated with judgment - is fully developed.

noxiousdog wrote: ↑Mon Jun 05, 2023 11:23 pm I have little sympathy for people who are intelligent enough to go to college, but don't understand loans and interest. It's not they aren't capable, it's that they don't care.

While I can't deny that I exhibit that kind of cut-throat critique a lot myself, I think you are making a very broad and aggressive assessment of the situation.

These will be: Smart kids faced with absurd costs for higher education - they are going to hope "the system" has some method to get them in, and when they are shown that 'method' I really don't think that they can be entirely blamed for not realizing they were being fucked up the ass.

noxiousdog wrote: ↑Mon Jun 05, 2023 11:23 pm I have little sympathy for people who are intelligent enough to go to college, but don't understand loans and interest. It's not they aren't capable, it's that they don't care.

They're still kids, so I have sympathy. Not enough to look the other way so school can be free!!! after the fact, but enough that I think there should be more inherent regulation and responsibility by the lending authorities.

Yeah I think that's frankly a very insulting way of looking at the problem. Pin the blame on "ignorant kids and their parents" instead of greedy lenders and skyrocketing tuition costs. Pray tell what are their options if they can't otherwise afford school?

YellowKing wrote: ↑Tue Jun 06, 2023 8:24 am Yeah I think that's frankly a very insulting way of looking at the problem. Pin the blame on "ignorant kids and their parents" instead of greedy lenders and skyrocketing tuition costs. Pray tell what are their options if they can't otherwise afford school?

Right. This is on a road which leads to implicitly providing access to higher education and opportunity in general based on class and/or other privileges. Something that flies in the face of the meritocracy folk lore Americans love.

Between undergrad and law school loans, I just finished paying mine off last month. I graduated college in 1996 and law school in 2001, and I’ve been paying the loans down consistently but for a brief deferment when I was in law school.

I knew what I was getting into when I took out those loans, and I knew paying off those loans would be a fundamental and limiting factor in my life decisions going forward.

By the time you’re ready to make decisions about college and higher education, you sure as shit better know the difference between a loan and a grant, know what interest is and be able to calculate the cost of the money you’re borrowing. If you can’t do that, it’s both a personal failure and a failure of our high school educational system.

That said, I still have a tremendous amount of sympathy for people paying off their loans for higher education. Even assuming you know what you’re doing when you take out significant loans to pay for college (which you should), the field is so tilted toward making that decision to take out those loans that it sometimes seems impossible to me for a vast number of kids leaving high school to NOT go that route. On top of all the advice they get that “investing” in your education is a sound decision, for many kids, they’d have to be extraordinarily comfortable forging their own way to ignore the hordes of their peers all taking out loans for college. And with a potentially unlimited future in front of them, it’s easy to see why they’re more or less comfortable kicking the can down the road in terms of really thinking about the consequences of the decision to take out loans for school.

I think where I come out on the loan forgiveness issue is, I’d rather see fundamental changes made to the current system that would result in a real and lasting benefit for students. Find a way to stop the insane increase in the cost of higher education. Ratchet up the disclosure requirements of lenders offering this money to prospective students. Add some disclosure requirements for schools regarding the ability of their graduates to pay off their loans and their real earning potential.

In terms of the graduates currently struggling with student debt, I don’t think they are entitled to “debt forgiveness,” but I also wouldn’t mind seeing some programs put in place to help them out if it could be done in a fair way.

Kurth wrote: ↑Tue Jun 06, 2023 9:50 amI think where I come out on the loan forgiveness issue is, I’d rather see fundamental changes made to the current system that would result in a real and lasting benefit for students. Find a way to stop the insane increase in the cost of higher education. Ratchet up the disclosure requirements of lenders offering this money to prospective students. Add some disclosure requirements for schools regarding the ability of their graduates to pay off their loans and their real earning potential.

In terms of the graduates currently struggling with student debt, I don’t think they are entitled to “debt forgiveness,” but I also wouldn’t mind seeing some programs put in place to help them out if it could be done in a fair way.

No question that the 'it's not that they aren't capable, it's that they don't care' take is a rough one. Or at least a very broad brushstroke. There are failures all around that lead to the current nationwide loan debt predicament, and most of them aren't on the students.

Kurth wrote: ↑Tue Jun 06, 2023 9:50 am Between undergrad and law school loans, I just finished paying mine off last month. I graduated college in 1996 and law school in 2001, and I’ve been paying the loans down consistently but for a brief deferment when I was in law school.

I knew what I was getting into when I took out those loans, and I knew paying off those loans would be a fundamental and limiting factor in my life decisions going forward.

By the time you’re ready to make decisions about college and higher education, you sure as shit better know the difference between a loan and a grant, know what interest is and be able to calculate the cost of the money you’re borrowing. If you can’t do that, it’s both a personal failure and a failure of our high school educational system.

I'm with you mostly. I just wonder how realistic it is to expect them to calculate the cost of the money borrowing. It is pretty much impossible in my reckoning. The twists and turns involved - including all the deferred and non-deferred interest require accounting skills that we potentially can't reasonably expect that young adults will have. There are ways to address this (include some potentially mandatory financial counseling).

I think where I come out on the loan forgiveness issue is, I’d rather see fundamental changes made to the current system that would result in a real and lasting benefit for students. Find a way to stop the insane increase in the cost of higher education. Ratchet up the disclosure requirements of lenders offering this money to prospective students. Add some disclosure requirements for schools regarding the ability of their graduates to pay off their loans and their real earning potential.

This is what I'd prefer too. In an ideal world a running tally of the monthly payment would be helpful. There are so many of those aforementioned twists and turns there that even that isn't practical. The current system as designed ultimately obscures the total cost of education. It is very similar to the healthcare system where you can't possibly know the total costs up front. Even between different professors in the same program there can be different costs much like a necessary change in a procedure can inflate costs.

In terms of the graduates currently struggling with student debt, I don’t think they are entitled to “debt forgiveness,” but I also wouldn’t mind seeing some programs put in place to help them out if it could be done in a fair way.

Same. Forgiveness potentially adds to the problem so we should find ways to help them by providing service opportunities, etc. that defray costs. This also helps the community at large and builds their skillset. A win-win for everyone.

I'll point out that many kids have zero emotional understanding of financial responsibility at that stage in their life. Even kids with jobs throughout high school. Mom and Dad are often the safety net that keeps them from making mistakes or even having to face decisions that have financial consequences.

They understand that $10,000 is different than $100,000 because one has an extra zero. They aren't likely to understand that they can probably pay off the first relatively painlessly once they graduate, but the latter will be with them for years to come, unless they decide to make their life all about paying off their loan, putting everything else on hold for years to do so.

As with healthcare, America's "for profit" post secondary education system is one of the most expensive in existence, while providing results on par with the rest of the western world.

Lots of Americans are ok with that.