Student Loan Debt Forgiveness

[Octavious]

I'd say most of us are not okay with it, but we don't have any options. My daughter is starting to apply for college this summer. I'm pretty good with how loans and such work and this shit is super confusing. So to say some kid is supposed to understand seems a bit ridiculous. That a freaking state school in NJ would cost 120,000 with room and board for 4 years makes me want to punch someone. The way stuff is funded my wife and I are better off quitting our jobs and living with family so that college is affordable. My daughter should get a bunch of merit scholarships which will help, but holy hell this shit is 100% broken.

[GreenGoo]

I'd say most of us are not okay with it.

Fair enough.

[Smoove_B]

As someone that interacts with college-age students on the regular, some of it is not understanding the bigger-picture implications of $100K+ of debt at the age of ~22. For some, it's like another car payment or rent check - the idea that it would persist for decades is incomprehensible. There's also the issue that schools and businesses sell the idea that you're going to graduate and start pulling down six-figure salaries in no time. Even if that's true for some, it's still incomprehensible to the mind of most 20-somethigns how having a $400 month payment on top of everything else is going to make post-graduation life more difficult. So what do they do? They push them to jump into a Masters program for another ~2 years and get even more debt - with the idea that it will help offset a lack of work experience and really get them that job they're looking for.

Again, as someone involved in the sausage making process (at a very, very low level) I can absolutely tell you people are being taken advantage of and being sold a promise that might or might not ever happen. Plus the pressure from parents/guardians that are telling them there are no other options (there are) and that it's not as expensive as they remember (they're delusional). My own parents understand what college costs now but they just can't comprehend it - even when I explain that the costs for my entire undergraduate degree is now roughly equal to 1 year of tuition at the same school; so much has changed in 30 years.

People have been asking me for years (including my own parents), "You've been saving a few thousand a year for college, right?" As if that was possible. How on earth could two working parents possibly own a home (or pay rent), work and save for retirement and also squirrel away $100K+ for each kid? It's madness.

Regarding debt forgiveness, I feel very strongly there should be programs in place that provide relief for those that go into public service. Teachers, public engineers. Physicians and lawyers that volunteer their time to those in need. Social workers - whatever the job, if there's a public service element that should qualify for relief.

[malchior]

NJ is a special case. Years of underfunding have essentially made NJ "public" higher learning institutions into a private system with all the baggage of a public system layered in. The state kicks in almost zero dollars but strangles the schools in reams of red tape.

Just an anecdotal taste but I once saw a state fire inspector blow up the planned opening of a privately funded academic building because he didn't think a fan was sized correctly to evacuate smoke. Forget that a professional engineer signed off on it. Forget that his colleague who had retired days earlier had signed off on it. This tinpot dictator knew more than them all. That cost the students ultimately $100K and made the college have to scramble to relocate classes for weeks including temporary spaces which cost even more money.

Additionally, the state mandates that schools self-insure for any losses (again unfunded). So any legal actions? Any unanticipated costs? Straight to tuition. The student body is the reinsurer. Brilliant stuff.

[Octavious]

I really wish I had realized how bad NJ public schooling was for college. I would have seriously tried harder to get the f out. NY state has a billion schools that are at least somewhat affordable if you live over that magic line. I mean if you commute that knocks out 18K a year, but ugh. Hey at least their football team is well funded.

On the plus side we might as well look at the fancy schools as the cost difference is minimal with how aid is calculated. Another thing I didn't know about was early acceptance. If I didn't read the fine print my daughter would have done early acceptance to William and Mary, but you HAVE to go there if you get accepted. Doesn't matter if you end up getting no aid. It's bonkers.

[noxiousdog]

Ya'll, of course, are entitled to your opinion, but frankly, it smacks of delusional self-interest.

Simple interest calculations are 7th grade math, and nobody is sad about Jimmy the Redneck buying a $60,000 truck at 8% interest. Why so sad about private school kids with that kind of debt?

[stessier]

Ya'll, of course, are entitled to your opinion, but frankly, it smacks of delusional self-interest.

Simple interest calculations are 7th grade math, and nobody is sad about Jimmy the Redneck buying a $60,000 truck at 8% interest. Why so sad about private school kids with that kind of debt?

We don't trust 18 year olds to make smart choice about drinking but you're fine with them making life altering decisions about loans?

[malchior]

What self-interest? I bet the population here looking for debt cancellation is closer to zero than any significant number.

Also your car comparison is patently silly. The car is a single financial transaction with immediate payments that are generally fixed and relatively short-term. It also involves a tangible asset. Versus a series of transactions with a complex mix of deferred loans with potentially varying interest rates and extreme length durations that lead to highly variable outcomes which heavily impact living standards for decades. Totally the same.

[Zarathud]

Colleges offer financial aid and loans based on federal funding rules. The colleges used to rely on federal funding, although that’s been replaced. The tax law creates incentivizes for donor gifts conditioned on building (and naming) parts of college and university programs, rather than general gifts. And advancement in society is based on access to education, or wealth. The county doesn’t want to give up the American dream of being a meritocracy. Plus, student loans are no longer discharged in bankruptcy — so there is no recovering from bad college decisions, under federal law.

That’s a very different ecosystem than buying a car.

[Kurth]

NJ is a special case. Years of underfunding have essentially made NJ "public" higher learning institutions into a private system with all the baggage of a public system layered in. The state kicks in almost zero dollars but strangles the schools in reams of red tape.

Just an anecdotal taste but I once saw a state fire inspector blow up the planned opening of a privately funded academic building because he didn't think a fan was sized correctly to evacuate smoke. Forget that a professional engineer signed off on it. Forget that his colleague who had retired days earlier had signed off on it. This tinpot dictator knew more than them all. That cost the students ultimately $100K and made the college have to scramble to relocate classes for weeks including temporary spaces which cost even more money.

Additionally, the state mandates that schools self-insure for any losses (again unfunded). So any legal actions? Any unanticipated costs? Straight to tuition. The student body is the reinsurer. Brilliant stuff.

I don't think I could name a state school in NJ, and I grew up one state over in PA and went to college just outside of Philly.

One thing I've been really pleased with about moving to the West Coast (one of the few) is that the state university systems out here are really pretty solid. My son is a freshman studying mechanical engineering at Cal Poly in San Luis Obispo, and my daughter who just graduated high school last week will be pre-med at Oregon State. While neither school is necessarily cheap, they're both far more affordable than almost all the options back East, and they boast some impressive programs.

[RunningMn9]

I really wish I had realized how bad NJ public schooling was for college.

You have to realize that in many ways it’s self-inflicted though.

Yeah, living at Rutgers for four years is ludicrously expensive and isn’t nearly worth the $120K price tag.

But you can get the same piece of paper for a tiny fraction of that. NJ Stars brings the first two years to $0, and knocks $5000 off the remaining two years. Don’t live there and your Rutgers degree costs you about $27k.

Sure, you don’t get to live at Rutgers. Sure you don’t “get” to take bullshit electives at Rutgers. But you have to decide if you are paying for your kid to get an education or an experience. Experiences cost money brah!

[Octavious]

Ya there certainly are options and sending her to county for the first two years certainly would be the smartest financially. It's just frustrating that other states have so many better options. She did well enough that someone is going to give her a decent discount, but the whole thing is just insane.

It's just frustrating to me when people mention private college when the freaking public colleges are insanely priced. The whole thing is so broken. And I would wager a small amount most of those people went to a 4 year and didn't owe a mortgage when they got out. She's not even planning on applying to Rutgers.

[RunningMn9]

I don't think I could name a state school in NJ, and I grew up one state over in PA and went to college just outside of Philly.

Kind of a weird ignorance brag.

[Zaxxon]

I don't think I could name a state school in NJ, and I grew up one state over in PA and went to college just outside of Philly.

Kind of a weird ignorance brag.

Well, other than Rutgers I imagine Kurth is far from alone.

[Octavious]

The College of New Jersey is too vague?

[Zaxxon]

Sounds like a made-up college.

[RunningMn9]

I don't think I could name a state school in NJ, and I grew up one state over in PA and went to college just outside of Philly.

Kind of a weird ignorance brag.

Well, other than Rutgers I imagine Kurth is far from alone.

That’s my point. To be from PA, and go to school outside of Philly, and you’ve never heard of Rutgers? Stop.

And I’m not sure what you mean by “other than Rutgers”. It’s the state university. No disrespect to my kids who are Montclair State University students/alum.

I would also be surprised if he’s never heard of NJIT.

[RunningMn9]

Either way, it’s weird to brag about being ignorant of something.

[hepcat]

I brag about not knowing much about the Kardashians all the time.

[RunningMn9]

I brag about not knowing much about the Kardashians all the time.

Also weird.

[TheMix]

I brag about not knowing much about the Kardashians all the time.

Uh huh. Sure. Gotcha.

[Zenn7]

Ya'll, of course, are entitled to your opinion, but frankly, it smacks of delusional self-interest.

Simple interest calculations are 7th grade math, and nobody is sad about Jimmy the Redneck buying a $60,000 truck at 8% interest. Why so sad about private school kids with that kind of debt?

Because my kid is going to public school, working summer/odd jobs and still may end up with somewhere near that much debt for his Masters, which is required to be a licensed therapist, his chosen profession (one that while not financially rewarding, I think can reasonably be argued as a reasonably noble and worthwhile profession as compared to what most people are going to school for)? I did make him look into how much money a therapist can make, what we thought his loans might cost/month (wild guess based on cost of his school when he started this program) and how much he'd have left to live on with some limited-research estimates on rent costs where he thought he wanted to live. Fortunately, he's a little ahead because I think we factored worse case with him not having summer job to help pay at all (and not factoring any additional help from us, which we've provided some).

Because the bank giving Jimmy the Redneck buying a $60,000 truck can take the truck away if Jimmy defaults, but can't do much else if Jimmy declares bankruptcy, so they make darn sure they think Jimmy can repay $60,000. Billy the college student though, they'll happily give $120,000 w/o giving jack about whether Billy can repay it or not because Billy can't file bankruptcy. And Billy in most cases is younger with much less life experience than Jimmy.

Sounds sort of predatory?

Maybe instead of forgiving debt, they just institute bankruptcy for student loans as an option and see how willing the banks are to hand out money hand over fist to college kids. Maybe make it retroactive, let large corporate entities suffer (make it so there are no taxpayer bailouts) for trying to screw over kids.

Not going to happen, and yes, I know it's nowhere near that simple even if they were to try to implement such things. Just feeling frustration over the costs and some particular frustration over how the college screwed him over in some financial aid he was getting initially.

[noxiousdog]

Not going to happen, and yes, I know it's nowhere near that simple even if they were to try to implement such things. Just feeling frustration over the costs and some particular frustration over how the college screwed him over in some financial aid he was getting initially.

I'm sorry that has happened and it's clearly unsustainable when a 50k a year job costs $120,000 to get a license.

There's a balancing act. If the bankruptcy laws were exactly the same, then interest rates and qualification for loans would go way up.

Of course it's frustrating. I shelled out $13k for my kid's first semester of college where he proceeded to skip all his classes and fail. But he and I share the responsibility of the decision to send him on campus instead of to community college where he could mature first.

[Isgrimnur]

StudentAid

You may have your federal student loan discharged in bankruptcy only if you file a separate action, known as an "adversary proceeding," requesting the bankruptcy court find that repayment would impose undue hardship on you and your dependents.

What circumstances do I need to prove to have my loan discharged in bankruptcy?
You must file for bankruptcy and demonstrate to the bankruptcy court that repaying your loan would cause undue hardship. This must be decided in an adversary proceeding in bankruptcy court. Your creditors may be present to challenge the request.

[Isgrimnur]

Lending Tree

About 4 out of 10 Americans who file for bankruptcy are able to have their student loans discharged, yet only 0.1% of student loan borrowers even attempt to, according to a study by the American Bankruptcy Law Journal.

[Octavious]

Interesting. It was beat into most of our heads that it was totally impossible.

[Isgrimnur]

I can’t begin to imagine why….

[Blackhawk]

By the time you’re ready to make decisions about college and higher education, you sure as shit better know the difference between a loan and a grant, know what interest is and be able to calculate the cost of the money you’re borrowing. If you can’t do that, it’s both a personal failure and a failure of our high school educational system.

After high school, it was made clear that the best I could hope for going forward was a combination of grants and loans. It was the only option that I was given to attend college. And yeah, I knew the difference between the two. But beyond that? Neither my schools, nor my father, had prepared me for making financial decisions. I was a kid - I wasn't even aware that there was information that I was lacking. How could I have been if the people responsible for preparing me for life never gave me that information? And given that I'd never had more than a part-time job for gas money, or had ever paid the bills, and I had never in my life handled a budget, I had no basis for judging whether $X/year or /month was a lot on a post-college income or not (not that such information was ever provided to me to begin with.) And given the holes in my education, I had no idea that it was something that I should have figured out.

And you think that was a personal failure on my part?

[hepcat]

I brag about not knowing much about the Kardashians all the time.

Also weird.

I mean, I’m lying when I do, of course….

[GreenGoo]

Ya'll, of course, are entitled to your opinion, but frankly, it smacks of delusional self-interest.

As are you, but frankly, it smacks of delusional ignorance of experiences that are not your own. People (many, many) struggle with fractions for God's sake. But I'm not even talking about the math involved. I'm talking about emotional maturity and the inability to understand what the future holds. Something most people struggle with, to be honest. The math is the least difficult part of all this and it's still challenging for many, but that's not the point I'm trying to make.

How many people change their majors after first year? Why? Brilliant insight into the future? Sometimes. Maybe.

As far as self-interest goes, I have no idea what you're implying. Seriously.

As far as Rmn9 goes, I believe he sees education as simply job training and nothing more. I take his view on post secondary education with that in mind. Which is to say, heavily salted.

[YellowKing]

Even if you did fully understand every nuance of what you're getting into, it doesn't change the fact that school is insanely expensive, you have limited options on how to pay for it, and the limited options you do have are often designed to screw you over.

[Unagi]

I would say there is a difference for the community and economy between a guy that takes a loan to afford a trophy-truck, vs a guy that takes a loan to become a doctor/engineer/businessman/writer/anything

[Carpet_pissr]

How many people change their majors after first year?

According to our hosts at a very recent campus tour at UNC - Chapel Hill, 2-3x. (To be precise, they said ‘our undergrads’, not ‘after their first year’. Still, that shocked me.)

[noxiousdog]

I would say there is a difference for the community and economy between a guy that takes a loan to afford a trophy-truck, vs a guy that takes a loan to become a doctor/engineer/businessman/writer/anything

Wait. Are you saying doctors/engineers/businessmen can't do interest calculations?

And while a ford f-150 isn't 60k even now (35k base) it has been the best selling vehicle in America for as long as I can remember. SUVs are even more expensive are the best selling class of vehicle. Considering median income is less than that, I have way more sympathy for the non college community.

[noxiousdog]

As are you, but frankly, it smacks of delusional ignorance of experiences that are not your own. People (many, many) struggle with fractions for God's sake. But I'm not even talking about the math involved. I'm talking about emotional maturity and the inability to understand what the future holds. Something most people struggle with, to be honest. The math is the least difficult part of all this and it's still challenging for many, but that's not the point I'm trying to make.

How many people change their majors after first year? Why? Brilliant insight into the future? Sometimes. Maybe.

As far as self-interest goes, I have no idea what you're implying. Seriously.

As far as Rmn9 goes, I believe he sees education as simply job training and nothing more. I take his view on post secondary education with that in mind. Which is to say, heavily salted.

My 18 year old who makes terrible financial decisions all the time, and tries to draw to an insight straight on family poker night, was smart enough not to get into a car purchasing agreement with us (we obtained a beater for her; she wants to upgrade) because $200/month was risky. If she can do that kind of math, you are wildly underestimating the rest of society.

Quite the contrary. I struggled over and over with my own loans and my kids loans. I chose not to borrow money when I was going to school because it wasn't worth it. I commuted to school with a 45 minute drive until I could get a cheap apartment. I changed my major 4 or 5 times.

With my kids I'm having to decide if I should actually shell out the cash or just take a bunch of loans and have y'all bail them out.

[Unagi]

You seem to think that one’s ability to do the math translates directly to :: end of conversation

[YellowKing]

Yeah my wife has both business and accounting degrees. She still had school loans. Can she not do math? That argument is completely irrelevant.

Sure there are people who make bad financial decisions. There are also people who make the best decision they can at the time for their particular situation, and they're put in a bad position by a system that is broken.

I'm not saying we should just forgive all loans without taking steps to fix the system, but surely the answer isn't "hope people learn math and figure something out."

[GreenGoo]

You seem to think that one’s ability to do the math translates directly to :: end of conversation

Ty.

For the record I used to think this too, until I was in my late 20's I believe.

[Octavious]

It's not even just simple math. I legit have no idea what each college will cost so she's applying everywhere. You may get a scholarship... You might not... Apparently I shouldn't have had too much money in my bank account and now that's screwing me in the calculations. It's just broken.

The way financial aid is done some of the private schools will be similar to public in my case. I know people that got a full ride because their parents work under the table, while stupid me is over the limit for the NJ public schools.

I knew it was bad, but actually starting to apply makes me super angry. I can send her to county for free, but stupid me feels bad that she busted her ass to not get to go to a four year right away.

Blah blah... I'm holding out hope that her grades will get her a yuge scholarship somewhere. But this whole bailing out thing is ridiculous. We shouldn't need to bail people out. It shouldn't be this broken.

I really dislike this country a lot.

[Kurth]

I don't think I could name a state school in NJ, and I grew up one state over in PA and went to college just outside of Philly.

Kind of a weird ignorance brag.

Well, other than Rutgers I imagine Kurth is far from alone.

That’s my point. To be from PA, and go to school outside of Philly, and you’ve never heard of Rutgers? Stop.

And I’m not sure what you mean by “other than Rutgers”. It’s the state university. No disrespect to my kids who are Montclair State University students/alum.

I would also be surprised if he’s never heard of NJIT.

I was just piling on to support the notion that the NJ state university system does not have a great reputation. Not much of a brag. Also, more of a self-own since I didn’t even realize Rutgers was a state school!

Sorry, Scarlet Knights!