Election integrity and the transfer of power

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malchior
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Re: Election integrity and the transfer of power

Post by malchior »

Trump judge decides not issue TRO. The cases will likely be deemed mooted by the election so the issues raised won't be settled. We'll have to see if someone gets killed and maybe then it'll be worth looking at. It isn't hard to see that in the near future folks probably will just have to get used to armed randos staking out election ballot boxes.

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Re: Election integrity and the transfer of power

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Re: Election integrity and the transfer of power

Post by Isgrimnur »

Plaintiffs have not provided the Court with any evidence that Defendants’ conduct constitutes a true threat. ... Jennings’ social media posts also admonish volunteers to remain outside the statutorily prescribed seventy-five-foot voting location radius. ... Furthermore, the record contains evidence of Jennings’ social media posts instructing her affiliates not to engage with or talk to individuals at the drop boxes.
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Jaymann
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Re: Election integrity and the transfer of power

Post by Jaymann »

So won't these hillbilly stake outs actually help verify the legitimacy of the vote?
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malchior
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Re: Election integrity and the transfer of power

Post by malchior »

Jaymann wrote: Fri Oct 28, 2022 10:33 pm So won't these hillbilly stake outs actually help verify the legitimacy of the vote?
Only if they win.
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Re: Election integrity and the transfer of power

Post by Smoove_B »

Isgrimnur wrote: Fri Oct 28, 2022 10:25 pm
Plaintiffs have not provided the Court with any evidence that Defendants’ conduct constitutes a true threat. ... Jennings’ social media posts also admonish volunteers to remain outside the statutorily prescribed seventy-five-foot voting location radius. ... Furthermore, the record contains evidence of Jennings’ social media posts instructing her affiliates not to engage with or talk to individuals at the drop boxes.
Whoever intimidates, threatens, coerces, or attempts to intimidate, threaten, or coerce, any other person for the purpose of interfering with the right of such other person to vote or to vote as he may choose, or of causing such other person to vote for, or not to vote for, any candidate for the office of President, Vice President, Presidential elector, Member of the Senate, Member of the House of Representatives, Delegate from the District of Columbia, or Resident Commissioner, at any election held solely or in part for the purpose of electing such candidate, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than one year, or both.
So standing around in tactical gear isn't attempting to intimidate? As noted, someone needs to die in order for there to be an actual intimidation or attempt at intimidation? If what they're doing doesn't rise to the definition of attempting to intimidate, then I guess I don't understand anything.
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malchior
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Re: Election integrity and the transfer of power

Post by malchior »

I bothered to read the opinion while watching the Phillies game. This is the type of thing that might be a solid impartial legal analysis but it also could be garbage partisan hackery. I can't tell. There are whiffs of illogic but it's not crazy. If it is partisan hackery, it's the smart kind because the whole game in this lawsuit was to get the TRO.

It doesn't mean the Feds can't investigate the potential crime and might take it up to prevent this from becoming a regular tactic. For this election the damage is probably already done though.
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Re: Election integrity and the transfer of power

Post by Isgrimnur »

Smoove_B wrote: Sat Oct 29, 2022 12:17 am
Isgrimnur wrote: Fri Oct 28, 2022 10:25 pm
Plaintiffs have not provided the Court with any evidence that Defendants’ conduct constitutes a true threat. ... Jennings’ social media posts also admonish volunteers to remain outside the statutorily prescribed seventy-five-foot voting location radius. ... Furthermore, the record contains evidence of Jennings’ social media posts instructing her affiliates not to engage with or talk to individuals at the drop boxes.
Whoever intimidates, threatens, coerces, or attempts to intimidate, threaten, or coerce, any other person for the purpose of interfering with the right of such other person to vote or to vote as he may choose, or of causing such other person to vote for, or not to vote for, any candidate for the office of President, Vice President, Presidential elector, Member of the Senate, Member of the House of Representatives, Delegate from the District of Columbia, or Resident Commissioner, at any election held solely or in part for the purpose of electing such candidate, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than one year, or both.
So standing around in tactical gear isn't attempting to intimidate? As noted, someone needs to die in order for there to be an actual intimidation or attempt at intimidation? If what they're doing doesn't rise to the definition of attempting to intimidate, then I guess I don't understand anything.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯

The question becomes whether or not 25 yards is a sufficient distance. Obviously for an experienced rifle shooter, that's not a challenging distance.
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Re: Election integrity and the transfer of power

Post by Kraken »

Smoove_B wrote: Sat Oct 29, 2022 12:17 am So standing around in tactical gear isn't attempting to intimidate? As noted, someone needs to die in order for there to be an actual intimidation or attempt at intimidation? If what they're doing doesn't rise to the definition of attempting to intimidate, then I guess I don't understand anything.
It must depend on where one lives. If rednecks with assault rifles and armor showed themselves in public here, I would hope that the police would take them out quickly and check for permits later. Or at a minimum deport them to New Hampshire, whence they probably came anyway.
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LordMortis
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Re: Election integrity and the transfer of power

Post by LordMortis »

malchior wrote: Fri Oct 28, 2022 10:11 pm Trump judge decides not issue TRO. The cases will likely be deemed mooted by the election so the issues raised won't be settled. We'll have to see if someone gets killed and maybe then it'll be worth looking at. It isn't hard to see that in the near future folks probably will just have to get used to armed randos staking out election ballot boxes.

I still vote in person but the first armed observer I notice would see me voting absentee until the end and I would start getting louder about those complaining about it.
Isgrimnur wrote: Sat Oct 29, 2022 12:46 am The question becomes whether or not 25 yards is a sufficient distance. Obviously for an experienced rifle shooter, that's not a challenging distance.
Weren't duels with crappy non rifled pistols fought at shy of 20 yards, aka 2 adults taking about 10 (or even 20) paces? I remember ordinance/law growing up that we were not allowed to shoot a firearm within 1000 feet of a residence or so all the parents said. (Thinking back I wonder if/how that applies to a firing range)
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Re: Election integrity and the transfer of power

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Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions. – G.K. Chesterton
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Re: Election integrity and the transfer of power

Post by Alefroth »

:shock:

It seems difficult to get yourself thrown in jail in a civil suit.
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Re: Election integrity and the transfer of power

Post by El Guapo »

Alefroth wrote: Sat Nov 05, 2022 12:06 pm :shock:

It seems difficult to get yourself thrown in jail in a civil suit.
Contempt of court.
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Grifman
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Re: Election integrity and the transfer of power

Post by Grifman »

I’m glad Mike is on it:

Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions. – G.K. Chesterton
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Re: Election integrity and the transfer of power

Post by Isgrimnur »

Even the ones his side won?
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Re: Election integrity and the transfer of power

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"Use code TRUTH45 at mypillow.com to save up to 66%!"
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Re: Election integrity and the transfer of power

Post by Unagi »

LawBeefaroni wrote: Fri Nov 11, 2022 1:09 am "Use code TRUTH45 at mypillow.com to save up to 66%!"
Yeah - that had me in stitches. This is hilarious.
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Re: Election integrity and the transfer of power

Post by Grifman »

This is great news if true, as it flies off at least one path of electoral fraud:

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Re: Election integrity and the transfer of power

Post by Smoove_B »

Alefroth wrote: Tue Sep 06, 2022 1:17 pm I wonder how the Dominion lawsuits are progressing.

“I did not believe it for one second.”

That was the answer Sean Hannity gave, under oath, in a deposition in Dominion’s $1.6 billion defamation lawsuit against Fox News, according to information disclosed in a court hearing on Wednesday.
Amazing.
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Re: Election integrity and the transfer of power

Post by Isgrimnur »

https://www.theguardian.com/media/2022/ ... deposition

Fox argues that Hannity and the other presenters are protected by journalistic privilege but that position has been complicated by the Fox host’s own description of his role.

In defending his overt bias in favour of Trump and Republicans, Hannity has more than once said he is not a journalist but a talk show host, and so does not have to adhere to the profession’s ethical standards.
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Re: Election integrity and the transfer of power

Post by Smoove_B »

OHIO Governor DeWine was quite busy this week. Not just screwing with the environment, but also voting:
Under the new law, voters must present a photo ID when they cast their ballot in person, although the ID doesn't need to have their current address on it. Qualifying IDs include an Ohio driver's license, state ID, U.S. passport, passport card, military ID or interim identification issued by the Bureau of Motor Vehicles.

Overall:
Ohioans will have to show photo ID to vote on Election Day
Voters can no longer use utility bills, other documents to vote
Mail-in ballots must arrive within 4 days from Election Day instead of 10
Each Ohio county can have only one drob box for ballots
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malchior
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Re: Election integrity and the transfer of power

Post by malchior »

Fulton County Special Grand Jury to be dissolved

This is a normal step. The special grand jury compiles a report and doesn't lead to direct indictments. Now it goes to the Fulton County DA's office who decides if they will present findings to a grand jury for potential charges.
After months of closed door testimony, the special grand jury seated as part of the Fulton County, Georgia, investigation into potential 2020 election interference has finished its work and submitted its final report, according to a filing in the case Monday morning.

The special grand jury, which was seated in May 2022 as part of the investigation into former President Donald Trump's efforts to overturn the election, heard testimony from some of Trump's closet allies and supporters -- including lawyers Rudy Giuliani and John Eastman and Sen. Lindsey Graham.

Now, the grand jury has delivered its report and officially has been dissolved, according to a court order by Judge Robert C. McBurney filed on Monday morning.
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Re: Election integrity and the transfer of power

Post by malchior »

ICYMI - AP broke a story with about as close to smoking gun as we'll get that the Trump camp knew what they were doing when they made specious election fraud claims in Wisconsin in 2020. Bold added for emphasis.

You might have easily missed this because the AP story got almost no coverage from the national newspapers. Washington Post put the AP story on the website but printed nothing in the actual paper. The NY Times? Nothing. Zip. Not a story according to the "paper of record". I only became aware because Charlie Sykes talked about it in his newsletter. It would be unbelievable but there is a balloon to talk about which is why NY Times currently has *THREE* stories on their front page about it. I'm with Smoove_B - if you're paying attention to all the failures happening you can easily conclude that we're in hell.

MSNBC
A newly released audio recording offers a behind-the-scenes look at how former President Donald Trump’s campaign team in a pivotal battleground state knew they had been outflanked by Democrats in the 2020 presidential election. But even as they acknowledged defeat, they pivoted to allegations of widespread fraud that were ultimately debunked — repeatedly — by elections officials and the courts.

The audio from Nov. 5, 2020, two days after the election, is surfacing as Trump again seeks the White House while continuing to lie about the legitimacy of the outcome and Democrat Joe Biden’s win.

The Wisconsin political operatives in the strategy session even praised Democratic turnout efforts in the state’s largest counties and appeared to joke about their efforts to engage Black voters, according to the recording obtained Thursday by The Associated Press. The audio centers on Andrew Iverson, who was the head of Trump’s campaign in the state.

“Here’s the drill: Comms is going to continue to fan the flame and get the word out about Democrats trying to steal this election. We’ll do whatever they need (inaudible) help with. Just be on standby in case there’s any stunts we need to pull,” Iverson said.

Iverson is now the Midwest regional director for the Republican National Committee. He deferred questions about the meeting to the RNC, whose spokesperson, Keith Schipper, declined comment because he had not heard the recording.
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Re: Election integrity and the transfer of power

Post by malchior »

Pence was subpoenaed by Special Counsel Jack Smith to testify at the grand jury investigating the 2020 election shenanigans. And it looks like Pence is doing everything he can to avoid testifying. Cue up another year or two of delay while they kick around another novel legal theory.

Politico
Mike Pence is preparing to resist a grand jury subpoena for testimony about former President Donald Trump’s push to overturn the 2020 election, according to two people familiar with the former vice president’s thinking.

Pence’s decision to challenge Special Counsel Jack Smith’s request has little to do with executive privilege, the people said. Rather, Pence is set to argue that his former role as president of the Senate — therefore a member of the legislative branch — shields him from certain Justice Department demands.

Pence allies say he is covered by the constitutional provision that protects congressional officials from legal proceedings related to their work — language known as the “speech or debate” clause. The clause, Pence allies say, legally binds federal prosecutors from compelling Pence to testify about the central components of Smith’s investigation. If Pence testifies, they say, it could jeopardize the separation of powers that the Constitution seeks to safeguard.
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Re: Election integrity and the transfer of power

Post by stessier »

Interesting. I think people aren't able to be a member of two branches at the same time either - which the VP would be under that theory.
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malchior
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Re: Election integrity and the transfer of power

Post by malchior »

stessier wrote: Tue Feb 14, 2023 9:41 am Interesting. I think people aren't able to be a member of two branches at the same time either - which the VP would be under that theory.
That would seem antithetical to separation of power theories. Ironic since that is what they are arguing they are defending. It makes the head ache. To be honest, it feels like Pence desperately doesn't want to testify and they are throwing anything at the wall to buy delay or SCOTUS protection. It's a bit of a tortured argument both logically and lexically. I don't know how you'd argue he was a Senator or Representative.
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Re: Election integrity and the transfer of power

Post by Smoove_B »

malchior wrote: Tue Feb 14, 2023 9:30 am Cue up another year or two of delay while they kick around another novel legal theory.
It really is amazing to me how much has changed and so quickly over the last ~8 years. It's like everyone was operating with what they thought was an understanding of what would happen if they did [X], but in truth no one had really tested [X] before. And as it turns out, apparently we've decided at a certain point there really are elected officials that are untouchable by the law.
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Re: Election integrity and the transfer of power

Post by Zarathud »

Didn’t Pence argue his role was largely ceremonial, in which case there was no Speech and Debate?
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Re: Election integrity and the transfer of power

Post by Smoove_B »

Perfect example. It's whatever the legal theory of "throw this at the wall and see if it sticks" is part of. First, let's argue it's just ceremonial. Oh, that didn't work? Ok, then uh...it's something protected under the "speech and debate clause", yeah that's it.
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malchior
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Re: Election integrity and the transfer of power

Post by malchior »

That's what it feels like. It's shouldn't fly but it'll eat a year or two of calendar time. It's a nice spiral we are in. Our notions of rule of law are protecting destruction of our rule of law.
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Re: Election integrity and the transfer of power

Post by Carpet_pissr »

Theory: The ‘norms’ have worked as long as they have because our elected leaders all more or less believed in The System/ the government.

As we as a society have become more and more polarized and I think as more and more money has been allowed to influence the process, we have been sending a growing number of people who either don’t believe in the system anymore, or think it’s corrupt beyond repair, or just in it for the grift/money/limelight etc.

Systems only work when a group believes in them. I think we’re seeing what happens when belief falls off.

Maybe we should consider trying to codify what was previously just norms that were generally followed (bc everyone generally believed).
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Re: Election integrity and the transfer of power

Post by Smoove_B »

The collapse (or shift) of norms would explain people yelling and booing at a sitting President during a State of the Union address.

Norms don't explain why elected officials can stonewall investigations as though laws don't apply to them. At least when police are charged with crimes we (eventually) go through the theater of a criminal proceeding. Public officials apparently get to just make up shit and delay things indefinitely - hoping if they can run down the clock, when their team gets the ball back all will be forgotten and/or forgiven.

Make no mistake - anyone associated with 1/6 that is still incarcerated after 2024 will be pardoned.
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malchior
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Re: Election integrity and the transfer of power

Post by malchior »

Smoove_B is on the right track. There is a norms problem but there also is the rot or corruption we are seeing around basic levels of accountability. Both are extremely corrosive.

As to norms, you can't really enforce the norms under our constitution even if we wanted to pass legislation. More importantly perhaps is we can't pass legislation of this sort. It's a non-starter. Our government is suffering from a lack of capability in governance and execution right now. We live in a vetocracy with regards to progress at least. So many veto points and very few that grease the skids to solve issues.

That goes hand in hand with the accountability issues which has lead to deep levels of rot to set in. We are getting people like Santos and Luna because the bar is SO LOW for accountability. Their opponents and the press didn't even bother to do basic levels of due diligence on them. Even then we can't even be sure the voters even care. Mostly because trust levels are so low that many hope that their side does whatever they can to 'do stuff'.

Then we have the power asymmetries. The GOP only needs to stop things which again is just easier. They also weren't too ashamed to game the system to take over the judiciary. And ultimately they outwardly at some level had a goal to undermine governance. They've had a long-time project to 'drown it in a bathtub' after all.

That unfortunately declined to the state we're in now where: trust has fallen to low levels -> lowered expectations about the people in power -> invites unsuitable candidates to participate and it's all aided by a culture of elite impunity. That impunity has lead to out in the open grifting that somehow we all see but the DOJ doesn't. What just happened with the Architect of the Capital is a great example of this. If you or I lied to investigators, there is a near 100% chance they would have prosecuted us and most likely forced a plea. They didn't even go after him because he has all sorts of privileges and protections we don't have. It's absolute society poison. It's a negative feedback loop and that doesn't usually end well.

Anyway, I don't know how we salvage this. I didn't see a path a few years ago and it's seemingly just getting worse all the time. I guess we'll see how 2024 works out but then again that is generally about setting the pace of the decline versus arresting it.
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Re: Election integrity and the transfer of power

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Re: Election integrity and the transfer of power

Post by gbasden »

Defiant wrote: Sat Feb 18, 2023 6:43 pm
Whee. It's sad that in this shitty timeline spouting insane nonsense as your campaign platform gives you all of a 2.3% disadvantage.
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Re: Election integrity and the transfer of power

Post by Isgrimnur »

NBC News
The FBI has arrested a Donald Trump supporter allegedly to have stormed the U.S. Capitol on Jan. 6, 2021, while wearing the head of a panda costume.

Jesse James Rumson was arrested Monday in Florida, according to court records, and charged with multiple offenses, including assaulting, resisting or impeding an officer and engaging in physical violence in a restricted building or grounds.
...
The FBI identified Rumson as the man in the panda head because he wore it on and off during the storming of the Capitol and he was caught on video and in photos with his face in full view, an FBI special agent said in an affidavit supporting his arrest.
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LordMortis
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Re: Election integrity and the transfer of power

Post by LordMortis »

Can we assume it was Tucker Carlson who turned them to this? :lol:
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Re: Election integrity and the transfer of power

Post by El Guapo »

gbasden wrote: Sat Feb 18, 2023 8:44 pm
Defiant wrote: Sat Feb 18, 2023 6:43 pm
Whee. It's sad that in this shitty timeline spouting insane nonsense as your campaign platform gives you all of a 2.3% disadvantage.
FWIW that is a massive disadvantage in electoral terms - losing essentially five points (because you're generally losing votes to your opponent, meaning 2.3% is really closer to 4.6%) on a single issue is really hard to do especially in polarized times.

Of course this is also frustrating / disappointing because this should be completely disqualifying. But just want to say that the percentage impact here is a lot larger than just the raw number makes it sound like.
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Re: Election integrity and the transfer of power

Post by gbasden »

El Guapo wrote: Tue Feb 28, 2023 4:13 pm
FWIW that is a massive disadvantage in electoral terms - losing essentially five points (because you're generally losing votes to your opponent, meaning 2.3% is really closer to 4.6%) on a single issue is really hard to do especially in polarized times.

Of course this is also frustrating / disappointing because this should be completely disqualifying. But just want to say that the percentage impact here is a lot larger than just the raw number makes it sound like.
I get that, and it kept a number of awful people out of office this year. But to me it just highlights the disfunction. In recent history, spouting tin foil hat nonsense as your core campaign platform would limit you to only getting the kook vote. Now it turns off a small percentage of independents.
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Re: Election integrity and the transfer of power

Post by Grifman »

Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions. – G.K. Chesterton
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