Israel–United States relations and associated politics

[hepcat]

Well written.

[Unagi]

It starts on page 10, for the morbidly curious.

I'm happy to say that my views apparently haven't changed much on this.

At least some "facts" changed. The beheaded babies turned out to be 0 beheaded baby. The systematic rape turned out to be a lie, too.

Hey, VR, I've got a link for you: The Rape Denialists.

Is there any evidence of systematic rape on October 7th in that? How about a single evidence? Only one.

I'm not denying that there were rape on October 7th. I just wanted to know if there is any evidence at all of systematic rape.

We all know by now that 40 beheaded babies story was totally made up. There was no beheaded babies. Not even a single one.

Just like the technical arguments against "genocide"... this debate over the proven vs. unproven atrocities of Oct. 7th is seriously pointless.

The idea of killing a random innocent person in absolute cold blood really shouldn't be considered entirely "less" horrible than the specific details of treating a baby with absolutely no human dignity in its murder.

There are no fucking points to earn here, for Hamas, for the possible fact that no babies were beheaded (or if there was no systematic rape, for that matter - even more so...).

[Unagi]

We need to remember the alternative to Israel whatever it’s flaws is a hamas run Palestine where every Jew is dead and with a massively increased risk to western countries.

I'm not trying to be too argumentative here, but I think that statement is a little too: A or B

An alternative to "this version of Israel" doesn't need to be "Hamas".


However, I will say that Hamas has absolutely no way to claim any 'moral superiority', as - like you say - they clearly and regularly make it clear that they want every Jew dead, and that's monstrous and a non-starter - and frankly, pathetic as a foundation of a people that hope to have any credibility in this world, today. IMO

[Holman]

For all we know, Hamas just hugged all those people on October 7th then left peacefully.

I'm informed that, after shooting and exploding and torturing and raping various random civilians, they took some others back as hostages and proceeded to treat them like beloved family members.

[Unagi]

For all we know, Hamas just hugged all those people on October 7th then left peacefully.

I'm informed that, after shooting and exploding and torturing and raping various random civilians, they took some others back as hostages and proceeded to treat them like beloved family members.

Still, and just to be internet clear, that doesn't justify carpet bombing Gaza to debris and craters - right?



Honest question, not directed at you Holman, but at everyone/anyone (but VR ):

Since October 1st, 2023, who has killed more children under the age of 10?
IDF or Hamas?

How about before then?

[Holman]

For all we know, Hamas just hugged all those people on October 7th then left peacefully.

I'm informed that, after shooting and exploding and torturing and raping various random civilians, they took some others back as hostages and proceeded to treat them like beloved family members.

Still, and just to be internet clear, that doesn't justify carpet bombing Gaza to debris and craters - right?



Honest question, not directed at you Holman, but at everyone/anyone (but VR ):

Since October 1st, 2023, who has killed more children under the age of 10?
IDF or Hamas?

How about before then?

To be clear: the Israeli government has instituted a campaign of war-crime-level atrocities against Palestinians in Gaza and also facilitated social terror in the West Bank.

They did this in response to terrorism-level atrocities perpetrated by Hamas on October 7.

There are no good guys between these two. Both sides are doing evil, and it is morally wrong to ignore one side's evil in order to excuse the other's.

And, just to be especially clear, the evil "sides" here are specific political organizations. All Jews are no more responsible for Netanyahu's atrocities than all Muslims are responsible for those of Hamas.

[Victoria Raverna]

Diminishing the attacks is not helpful. They did occur and rape was used as a weapon. Arguing semantics over terms like “systematic rape” does not change the horrors the victims went through.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_ ... _on_Israel

While two wrongs don’t make a right Israel is surrounded by people’s who would actively love to see them all treated in this way. It would make what isis did to the Yasidis look like a picnic.

We need to remember the alternative to Israel whatever it’s flaws is a hamas run Palestine where every Jew is dead and with a massively increased risk to western countries.

The alternative to Israel is a state where everyone is equal. Jews, Muslims, and Christians live peacefully which was what it was before the Zionist movement started.

Hamas exists because of Israel.

[Victoria Raverna]

It starts on page 10, for the morbidly curious.

I'm happy to say that my views apparently haven't changed much on this.

At least some "facts" changed. The beheaded babies turned out to be 0 beheaded baby. The systematic rape turned out to be a lie, too.

Hey, VR, I've got a link for you: The Rape Denialists.

Is there any evidence of systematic rape on October 7th in that? How about a single evidence? Only one.

I'm not denying that there were rape on October 7th. I just wanted to know if there is any evidence at all of systematic rape.

We all know by now that 40 beheaded babies story was totally made up. There was no beheaded babies. Not even a single one.

Just like the technical arguments against "genocide"... this debate over the proven vs. unproven atrocities of Oct. 7th is seriously pointless.

The idea of killing a random innocent person in absolute cold blood really shouldn't be considered entirely "less" horrible than the specific details of treating a baby with absolutely no human dignity in its murder.

There are no fucking points to earn here, for Hamas, for the possible fact that no babies were beheaded (or if there was no systematic rape, for that matter - even more so...).

Then what was the point of making up the story of 40 beheaded babies and having Israel selling that story to Biden?

What was the point of selling the systematic rape?

I think the point is to paint Palestinians as human animals so that we don't value their lives as much as other humans.

[Victoria Raverna]

For all we know, Hamas just hugged all those people on October 7th then left peacefully.

I'm informed that, after shooting and exploding and torturing and raping various random civilians, they took some others back as hostages and proceeded to treat them like beloved family members.

Based on the testimony of freed hostages maybe they're really treated like beloved family members.

[Holman]

For all we know, Hamas just hugged all those people on October 7th then left peacefully.

I'm informed that, after shooting and exploding and torturing and raping various random civilians, they took some others back as hostages and proceeded to treat them like beloved family members.

Based on the testimony of freed hostages maybe they're really treated like beloved family members.

You believe that? Really?

Also, please link that testimony.

[Holman]

I think the point is to paint Palestinians as human animals so that we don't value their lives as much as other humans.

Most of us are fully capable of seeing Palestinians as people suffering in terrible conditions.

Hamas fighters on Oct 7, however, committed atrocities that cannot be excused.

Can you see the difference?

[hepcat]

For all we know, Hamas just hugged all those people on October 7th then left peacefully.

I'm informed that, after shooting and exploding and torturing and raping various random civilians, they took some others back as hostages and proceeded to treat them like beloved family members.

Based on the testimony of freed hostages maybe they're really treated like beloved family members.

I remember when I kidnapped my nana and held her in a basement for 5 months. She knew I loved her dearly after that.

[Victoria Raverna]

For all we know, Hamas just hugged all those people on October 7th then left peacefully.

I'm informed that, after shooting and exploding and torturing and raping various random civilians, they took some others back as hostages and proceeded to treat them like beloved family members.

Based on the testimony of freed hostages maybe they're really treated like beloved family members.

You believe that? Really?

Also, please link that testimony.

[hepcat]

In her own words, she was beaten with sticks and forced to walk kilometers. Sounds like she was having a wonderful time. Hamas is obviously getting a raw deal in the press if they’re showing that kind of love to their enemies!

[Victoria Raverna]

I think the point is to paint Palestinians as human animals so that we don't value their lives as much as other humans.

Most of us are fully capable of seeing Palestinians as people suffering in terrible conditions.

Hamas fighters on Oct 7, however, committed atrocities that cannot be excused.

Can you see the difference?

Yes. But how much atrocities did they commit on October 7th? Why lied about what they didn't commit when there was enough atrocities by Hamas?

BTW, do you know that IDF killed some of the victims of October 7th?

[hepcat]

Hamas had killed more Palestinians prior to the reprisals from Israel.

[Victoria Raverna]

In her own words, she was beaten with sticks and forced to walk kilometers. Sounds like she was having a wonderful time. Hamas is obviously getting a raw deal in the press if they’re showing that kind of love to their enemies!

Yes. But I was responding to this:

I'm informed that, after shooting and exploding and torturing and raping various random civilians, they took some others back as hostages and proceeded to treat them like beloved family members.

Which kinda sound like her testimony. She was treated badly until they took her back as hostage then they treat her better. Maybe not as beloved family members, but as valuable hostage.

[hepcat]

Do you beat your beloved family members and refuse to let them leave your basement?

[Unagi]

Hamas exists because of Israel.

True enough. Let's keep going though, because you can't blame Israel just for existing.



Israel exists because of Hitler.
Hitler exists because of WW I.
WW I exists because of Gavrilo Princip.

His parents:




So go grab a time machine and kill one of these two before they meet. One death. Save the world.

[hepcat]

The alternative to Israel is a state where everyone is equal. Jews, Muslims, and Christians live peacefully which was what it was before the Zionist movement started.

I’d also like to point out that the myth of Muslims and Jews living harmoniously together prior to the creation of Israel is just that, a myth. There were periods of peace, yes. But there was just as much, if not more, of that history in which Jews were treated like third class citizens who had to pay taxes to just exist…if not outright persecuted. A cursory search of history will reveal that.

[Victoria Raverna]

The alternative to Israel is a state where everyone is equal. Jews, Muslims, and Christians live peacefully which was what it was before the Zionist movement started.

I’d also like to point out that the myth of Muslims and Jews living harmoniously together prior to the creation of Israel is just that, a myth. There were periods of peace, yes. But there was just as much, if not more, of that history in which Jews were treated like third class citizens who had to pay taxes to just exist…if not outright persecuted. A cursory search of history will reveal that.

It is not just Jews. All non muslim pay that taxes.

Also muslim themselves also pay a different type of taxes.

BTW, you also pay taxes in US, right? Is US treat you like third class citizen because you have to pay taxes?

If you want to know more about the taxes that non muslim had to pay:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jizya

[hepcat]

There’s a huge difference between paying taxes to support roads and services, and paying a tax to be allowed to worship the way you want, or even be allowed to live.

p.s. your link on the history of that tax only serves to prove my point that there was not a consistent golden age of harmony between Jews and Muslims prior to the creation of Israel. If anything, it backs up my statement that Jews were often treated like third class citizens simply for being Jews.

Also, more reading material.

[Victoria Raverna]

There’s a huge difference between paying taxes to support roads and services, and paying a tax to be allowed to worship the way you want, or even be allowed to live.

p.s. your link on the history of that tax only serves to prove my point that there was not a consistent golden age of harmony between Jews and Muslims prior to the creation of Israel.

Also, more reading material.

Are you saying that there was no peace between religions in that area just before the start of Zionist movement? Or just history in general?

Here are the situation before Zionist movement started:

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/ot ... -1517-1917

Following the Ottoman conquest in 1517, the Land was divided into four districts and attached administratively to the province of Damascus and ruled from Istanbul. At the outset of the Ottoman era, an estimated 1,000 Jewish families lived in the country, mainly in Jerusalem, Nablus (Shechem), Hebron, Gaza, Safed (Tzfat) and the villages of Galilee. The community was comprised of descendants of Jews who had never left the Land as well as immigrants from North Africa and Europe.

Orderly government, until the death (1566) of Sultan Suleyman the Magificent, brought improvements and stimulated Jewish immigration. Some newcomers settled in Jerusalem, but the majority went to Safed where, by mid-16th century, the Jewish population had risen to about 10,000, and the town had become a thriving textile center as well as the focus of intense intellectual activity. During this period, the study of Kabbalah (Jewish mysticism) flourished, and contemporary clarifications of Jewish law, as codified in the Shulhan Arukh, spread throughout the Diaspora from the study houses in Safad.

With a gradual decline in the quality of Ottoman rule, the country was brought to a state of widespread neglect. By the end of the 18th century, much of the land was owned by absentee landlords and leased to impoverished tenant farmers, and taxation was as crippling as it was capricious. The great forests of Galilee and the Carmel mountain range were denuded of trees; swamp and desert encroached on agricultural land.

The 19th century saw the first signs of progress, with various Western powers jockeying for position, often through missionary activities. British, French and American scholars launched studies of biblical geography and archeology; Britain, France, Russia, Austria and the United States opened consulates in Jerusalem. Steamships began to ply regular routes between the Land and Europe; postal and telegraphic connections were installed; the first road was built connecting Jerusalem and Jaffa. The Land's rebirth as a crossroads for commerce of three continents was accelerated by the opening of the Suez Canal.

Consequently, the condition of the country's Jews slowly improved, and their numbers increased substantially. By mid-century, overcrowded conditions within the walled city of Jerusalem motivated the Jews to build the first neighborhood outside the walls (1860) and, in the next quarter century, to add seven more, forming the nucleus of the New City. By 1880, Jerusalem had an overall Jewish majority. Land for farming was purchased throughout the country; new rural settlements were set up; and the Hebrew language, long restricted to liturgy and literature, was revived. The stage was being set for the founding of the Zionist movement.

[hepcat]

There were periods of peace, yes. But there was just as much, if not more, of that history in which Jews were treated like third class citizens who had to pay taxes to just exist…if not outright persecuted. A cursory search of history will reveal that.

Also, see Pact of Umar

[Unagi]

Then what was the point of making up the story of 40 beheaded babies and having Israel selling that story to Biden?

Well, I can only assume it was to help the world to justify and digest what they were about to do to a group of people they felt personally needed to be destroyed.

Right? Let's be honest.


I bet that's not entirely lost to most people here. Do you, VR, think that point is lost to most people here?

I'm not sure who exactly created and promoted those "stories", but I honestly don't really care about it. If you are paying an ounce of attention you will know that I am on the side of the random Palestinian child in this entire exchange. I believe they are the most exploited entity in this entire thing, and I wish I could just relieve them of this horror.

I will support the point that these stories were created to promote anger for Hamas, and all Palestinians by association.
Full stop.

You take it one, entirely absurd, step further.

You seem to use the idea that IF babies were not beheaded or that IF rape was not systemic, it should in some way play into our review of Israel's response.


The depth and degree of Israel's response is entirely gross (IMO!) regardless of the lies or truth of those accusations.
Do you get that?


I would not accept the bombing of Palestinian children even if Jewish babies were beheaded.

Additionally and in contrast to that, Hammas's attacks are sincerely outrageous and off-the-charts terroristic regardless of the way Israel is to blame for the existence of Hammas -- and certainly entirely irregardless of whether or not a baby was beheaded or rape was or wasn't "systemic".

Do you get that!?

[Unagi]

VR, I hope you are not trying to promote the Muslim religion as one that actually tolerates Jews.

Are you?

[Victoria Raverna]

VR, I hope you are not trying to promote the Muslim religion as one that actually tolerates Jews.

Are you?

No. I have Islamphobia.

[Victoria Raverna]

There were periods of peace, yes. But there was just as much, if not more, of that history in which Jews were treated like third class citizens who had to pay taxes to just exist…if not outright persecuted. A cursory search of history will reveal that.

Also, see Pact of Umar

I think we're in 2024 where it is easier to have peace between religions if there is no situation like the Israel-Palestinian conflict.

But maybe that is because I live in Indonesia where it is relatively peaceful. There are some more extreme muslim here that think non muslim (or even muslim that don't agree with them) are enemies or evil but most muslim are moderate.

[hepcat]

VR, I hope you are not trying to promote the Muslim religion as one that actually tolerates Jews.

Are you?

No. I have Islamphobia.

Multiple pages of posts by yourself have me thinking you’re being facetious.

but most muslim are moderate.

I think you can say that about some countries or regions, but definitely not about Muslims in general. As pointed out many, many pages ago, antisemitism is, and has been, a very real problem in the Muslim world.

[Victoria Raverna]

Additionally and in contrast to that, Hammas's attacks are sincerely outrageous and off-the-charts terroristic regardless of the way Israel is to blame for the existence of Hammas -- and certainly entirely irregardless of whether or not a baby was beheaded or rape was or wasn't "systemic".

Do you get that!?

No. I don't get it why you think Hamas attack was off-the-chart terroristic if there was no beheading babies or systematic rapes. They're not more terroristic than other terrorist attack.

Is it because of the number of the victims?

[Victoria Raverna]

VR, I hope you are not trying to promote the Muslim religion as one that actually tolerates Jews.

Are you?

No. I have Islamphobia.

Multiple pages of posts by yourself have me thinking you’re being facetious.

I tried to be more open minded toward islam but I have a strong bias against Islam.

[hepcat]

I’ll be honest, I’m still not sure if you’re being serious.

They're not more terroristic than other terrorist attack.

This is a puzzling statement.

I think we're in 2024 where it is easier to have peace between religions if there is no situation like the Israel-Palestinian conflict.

Good lord, I couldn’t disagree more. Wars break out between different beliefs within the SAME religion.

[Victoria Raverna]

I’ll be honest, I’m still not sure if you’re being serious.

I'm a Chinese Indonesian. It is normal to have a bias against Islam as a Chinese Indonesian.

I think the analogy of being a Chinese Indonesian is like to be a Jew minus the holocaust. We used to be excluded from military and politic. Chinese Indonesians were mainly focused in economy activity. Non Chinese Indonesians used to think that Chinese Indonesians are all rich. Chinese Indonesian also supposed to own politicians.

[Victoria Raverna]

They're not more terroristic than other terrorist attack.

This is a puzzling statement.

Also puzzling to me why anyone think they're more terroristic than other terrorist attacks without the beheading of babies or systematic rape part?

[hepcat]

Doubling down doesn’t make it less puzzling.

[Unagi]

Additionally and in contrast to that, Hammas's attacks are sincerely outrageous and off-the-charts terroristic regardless of the way Israel is to blame for the existence of Hammas -- and certainly entirely irregardless of whether or not a baby was beheaded or rape was or wasn't "systemic".

Do you get that!?

No. I don't get it why you think Hamas attack was off-the-chart terroristic if there was no beheading babies or systematic rapes. They're not more terroristic than other terrorist attack.

Is it because of the number of the victims?

No, it is very simply because of the nature of the only intended victims of their attack combined with the enormous scale of that attack*. They were just people living their lives like you and me. If a group of people entirely attacks that type of "target" it is (IMO) the worst act that a person can do.


*

Spoiler:

I will say it's probably not quite to the degree of a 9/11 attack in "off the charts" - which is now on the charts.

[Unagi]

They're not more terroristic than other terrorist attack.

This is a puzzling statement.

Also puzzling to me why anyone think they're more terroristic than other terrorist attacks without the beheading of babies or systematic rape part?

On some level, I will agree in that it's like saying one woman is more pregnant than another pregnant woman.

I mean, if you kill one group of totally innocent people, what's to say that's not unlike killing some other group of totally innocent people, right?

But I think you may be forced to agree that of all the "News Stories" that have seemed to expose some very very massively impactful terrorist attacks, that Oct 7th and Sept 11th do seem to grab the entire world's attention, no?

The reasons for that are the reasons for why you must admit to "off the charts".

[Victoria Raverna]

Additionally and in contrast to that, Hammas's attacks are sincerely outrageous and off-the-charts terroristic regardless of the way Israel is to blame for the existence of Hammas -- and certainly entirely irregardless of whether or not a baby was beheaded or rape was or wasn't "systemic".

Do you get that!?

No. I don't get it why you think Hamas attack was off-the-chart terroristic if there was no beheading babies or systematic rapes. They're not more terroristic than other terrorist attack.

Is it because of the number of the victims?

No, it is very simply because of the nature of the only intended victims of their attack combined with the enormous scale of that attack*. They were just people living their lives like you and me. If a group of people entirely attacks that type of "target" it is (IMO) the worst act that a person can do.


*

Spoiler:

I will say it's probably not quite to the degree of a 9/11 attack in "off the charts" - which is now on the charts.

Based on what I read, their target was to kidnap people who lived near Gaza border to use as hostages. They didn't know about the music festival so the attack on that was not planned.

[Victoria Raverna]

They're not more terroristic than other terrorist attack.

This is a puzzling statement.

Also puzzling to me why anyone think they're more terroristic than other terrorist attacks without the beheading of babies or systematic rape part?

On some level, I will agree in that it's like saying one woman is more pregnant than another pregnant woman.

I mean, if you kill one group of totally innocent people, what's to say that's not unlike killing some other group of totally innocent people, right?

But I think you may be forced to agree that of all the "News Stories" that have seemed to expose some very very massively impactful terrorist attacks, that Oct 7th and Sept 11th do seem to grab the entire world's attention, no?

The reasons for that are the reasons for why you must admit to "off the charts".

BTW, according to this article, Hamas was not the only one that killed totally innocent people on October 7th. So if number of the victims are what made it "off the charts" maybe need to corrected a bit.

https://thecradle.co/articles-id/13111

An Israeli police investigation into the Hamas attack on the Nova music festival near the Gaza border on 7 October revealed that an Israeli attack helicopter killed some of the attendees, Haaretz reported on 18 November.

According to a police source, an investigation into the incident showed that an Israeli combat helicopter that arrived at the scene from the Ramat David base fired at Hamas fighters and other Palestinians who crossed through the border fence from Gaza into Israel, but also fired on some of the Israelis attending the music festival. According to the police, 364 people were killed there.

The Israeli military and rescue services previously claimed that 260 Israelis were killed at the festival, all by Hamas and Palestinians in a deliberate massacre. But this is the first acknowledgement that Israeli forces killed some of their own.

Previous reports in Israeli media revealed that Israeli forces killed Israeli civilians in Be’eri, a settlement also near the Gaza border. In that case, Hamas fighters were holding Israelis captive in homes. When the Israeli military arrived, it opened fire, including by firing tank shells, killing both Israeli captives and Hamas fighters.

Three of those killed in Be’eri by Israeli tank fire were 12-year-old Liel Hezroni, her brother Yanai, and their aunt Ayla. Israeli broadcaster Kan reported that Liel’s relatives held a farewell ceremony for her, rather than a burial ceremony, because her body could not be recovered from the house that collapsed on her and other Hamas captives after an Israeli tank fired two shells into it.

A similar instance occurred in Sderot, where Hamas fighters had taken over the local police station. Both the Hamas fighters and prisoners were killed when the Israeli army fired tank shells at the police station, killing everyone. Israeli forces then bulldozed the station.

It is therefore unclear how many of the Israelis who died on 7 October were killed by Hamas, whose fighters were seeking to take as many Israelis, both soldiers and civilians, captive back to Gaza as possible, and how many were killed by Israeli forces refusing to negotiate for the captives’ release.

Israel initially claimed Hamas and Palestinians killed 1,400 Israelis on 7 October, including soldiers, police, and civilians, but later revised the count to 1,200. Israeli spokesperson Mark Regev acknowledged that 200 of the alleged victims were Hamas fighters or Palestinians whose bodies were burned so badly that Israeli authorities could not initially identify them and assumed them to be Israelis.

In an interview with MSNBC on 17 November, he stated, “We originally said, in the atrocious Hamas attack upon our people on October 7th, we had the number at 1,400 casualties and now we’ve revised that down to 1,200 because we understood that we’d overestimated, we made a mistake. There were actually bodies that were so badly burnt we thought they were ours, in the end apparently they were Hamas terrorists.”

Regarding the Nova festival, Haaretz reported as well that, “There is a growing assessment in the security establishment that the terrorists who carried out the massacre on October 7 did not know in advance about the Nova festival held near Kibbutz Re'im, and decided to come to the place after discovering that a mass event was taking place there.” The Hamas fighters had initially intended to attack nearby settlements in what is known as the Gaza envelope.

According to Haaretz, senior security officials estimate that Hamas found out about the existence of the party using drones, and directed its fighters to the location using their communication system. In a video from a body camera of one Hamas fighter, “he is heard asking a captured Israeli for directions to reach the bad guys, even though he was in a different area." One of the findings that strengthens the assessment, according to the police and other security officials, is that the first Hamas fighters arrived at the Nova festival from the direction of road 232 and not from the direction of the Gaza border fence.

[Unagi]

Additionally and in contrast to that, Hammas's attacks are sincerely outrageous and off-the-charts terroristic regardless of the way Israel is to blame for the existence of Hammas -- and certainly entirely irregardless of whether or not a baby was beheaded or rape was or wasn't "systemic".

Do you get that!?

No. I don't get it why you think Hamas attack was off-the-chart terroristic if there was no beheading babies or systematic rapes. They're not more terroristic than other terrorist attack.

Is it because of the number of the victims?

No, it is very simply because of the nature of the only intended victims of their attack combined with the enormous scale of that attack*. They were just people living their lives like you and me. If a group of people entirely attacks that type of "target" it is (IMO) the worst act that a person can do.


*

Spoiler:

I will say it's probably not quite to the degree of a 9/11 attack in "off the charts" - which is now on the charts.

Based on what I read, their target was to kidnap people who lived near Gaza border to use as hostages. They didn't know about the music festival so the attack on that was not planned.

Well, who cares what their "plans" were?
Or if they knew about the music festival??

Human beings (understand I have enormous sympathy for the Palestinians here, so digest this) are judged for what they did. Palestinians that signed up with Hammas, went and murdered random people in the hope they could better their world. That's fucked beyond belief. That's as fucked as the shit fucks that attacked the humanitarian caravan for Gazans. They are all horrible, and to offer any one of them the defense that "rape was not actually systemic" makes you look horrible. Horrible. Just think about it. Drop it.