The Trump Investigation(s) Thread

Jaymon · Post by **Jaymon** » Mon Dec 11, 2023 4:23 pm

Trump: The president can do whatever he wants, even if its "illegal". Neener neener.
Dark Brandon: Signs a presidential order banishing trump, and exercise emeninant domain over all his US based assets.
Trump: No, not like that.

Zarathud · Post by **Zarathud** » Mon Dec 11, 2023 5:11 pm

It is insane that Trump’s primary defense is that he can be corrupt and act illegally while President, while campaigning for President.

That’s low Nixon would have admired. And a standard that should cause the Republican voter to abandon him.

Octavious · Post by **Octavious** » Mon Dec 11, 2023 5:13 pm

His ratings are going up according to everything on 538. I'm very loosely paying attention as it's just so depressing to see everyone rally around a criminal. A criminal who had a terrible record despite what they try and pretend. He was negative 2.7 million jobs. Accounted for 25% of the deficient. Trade gaps went up not down. BUT HE BUILT PART OF A WALL. Seriously please just die dude. Pleaseeeeeee.

YellowKing · Post by **YellowKing** » Mon Dec 11, 2023 6:05 pm

I'm already just assuming he wins next year. I've lost every bit of faith in humanity. Congrats, America, you finally beat the optimism out of me.

Carpet_pissr · Post by **Carpet_pissr** » Mon Dec 11, 2023 6:54 pm

YellowKing wrote: ↑Mon Dec 11, 2023 6:05 pm I'm already just assuming he wins next year. I've lost every bit of faith in humanity. Congrats, America, you finally beat the optimism out of me.

Aaaand there's my personal signal of doom...even YK is hanging it up. Damn.

Holman · Post by **Holman** » Mon Dec 11, 2023 6:54 pm

YellowKing wrote: ↑Mon Dec 11, 2023 6:05 pm I'm already just assuming he wins next year. I've lost every bit of faith in humanity. Congrats, America, you finally beat the optimism out of me.

Why worry? According to the GOP, Kamala Harris has sole power to choose the President when the time comes.

Carpet_pissr · Post by **Carpet_pissr** » Mon Dec 11, 2023 7:11 pm

Holman wrote: ↑Mon Dec 11, 2023 6:54 pm
YellowKing wrote: ↑Mon Dec 11, 2023 6:05 pm I'm already just assuming he wins next year. I've lost every bit of faith in humanity. Congrats, America, you finally beat the optimism out of me.
Why worry? According to the GOP, Kamala Harris has sole power to choose the President when the time comes.

She could be a MAGA operative for all we know...hell, she could be dead for all we know...who is she again?!?

(REALLY need to wrap up watching Homeland, damn, it's inserting paranoia into my meat space!!)

Zaxxon · Post by **Zaxxon** » Mon Dec 11, 2023 7:43 pm

Zarathud wrote: ↑Mon Dec 11, 2023 5:11 pm a standard that should cause the Republican voter to abandon him.

Periodic reminder that there are no standards that would cause the Republican voter to abandon him.

Octavious · Post by **Octavious** » Mon Dec 11, 2023 7:56 pm

If the SC comes back and says he has immunity I guess we're just fucked. I actually don't think they will but who the hell knows anymore.

Victoria Raverna · Post by **Victoria Raverna** » Mon Dec 11, 2023 8:25 pm

If SC say he has immunity then Biden is free to break laws and do anything he want until the end of his term.

Punisher · Post by **Punisher** » Mon Dec 11, 2023 8:57 pm

YellowKing wrote: ↑Mon Dec 11, 2023 6:05 pm I'm already just assuming he wins next year. I've lost every bit of faith in humanity. Congrats, America, you finally beat the optimism out of me.

Look on the bright side, at least it will be finally over in 4 more years.

Kraken · Post by **Kraken** » Mon Dec 11, 2023 10:11 pm

Punisher wrote: ↑Mon Dec 11, 2023 8:57 pm
YellowKing wrote: ↑Mon Dec 11, 2023 6:05 pm I'm already just assuming he wins next year. I've lost every bit of faith in humanity. Congrats, America, you finally beat the optimism out of me.
Look on the bright side, at least it will be finally over in 4 more years.

You think it takes longer than that to establish a fascist dictatorship?

If Americans vote democracy out of existence in November, we deserve what we get.

malchior · Post by **malchior** » Mon Dec 11, 2023 10:37 pm

Kraken wrote: ↑Mon Dec 11, 2023 10:11 pmIf Americans vote democracy out of existence in November, we deserve what we get.

I've never understood this FWIW. I don't think we deserve any of this. There has been a widespread and concerted attack on liberalism in the Western world. And it unfortunately found a path here through the accidental Constitutional patch of the EC. If Trump wins, it'll almost certainly be again a lopsided vote where he loses the popular vote by millions and squeaks in by the tens of thousands in several small key states. I have a hard time reconciling that with some notion of "deserve".

Smoove_B · Post by **Smoove_B** » Mon Dec 11, 2023 10:50 pm

malchior wrote: ↑Mon Dec 11, 2023 10:37 pm I have a hard time reconciling that with some notion of "deserve".

Yeah, I thought the same for a long time - that we're getting what we deserve. That might be true on a local level (when people a directly voting for local representation), but on a national level? We're a mess because of the Electoral College and the added impact of Gerrymandering and the fact that no one votes.

A new Washington Post report tracing the modern trajectory of the Electoral College has the latest sobering data and finds that the 2024 White House race is “likely to target a smaller share of Americans than at any point in the modern era, despite massive increases in spending due to online fundraising.”

...

As the Post explains, political scientists Daron R. Shaw, Scott Althaus and Costas Panagopoulos have found that between 1952 and 1980, presidents targeted 26 states on average during their campaigns. That number has plunged since then, and during the last election Republicans and Democrats running for president focused on merely 10 states and two congressional districts. In that first era, presidential campaigns targeted areas that covered about 3 in 4 Americans, but by 2020 that had fallen to 1 in 4. And it’s likely to get worse: “If the major parties do not contest Florida in 2024, as is widely expected, only 18 percent of Americans would live in battlegrounds,” the Post reports.

I legitimately believe people would be fine with Dictator Trump as long as gas prices are reasonable and the NFL is still able to play regular season games.

Zarathud · Post by **Zarathud** » Mon Dec 11, 2023 10:55 pm

Those who are convinced Biden is worse than Trump “deserve” to get shown how wrong they can be. Because their votes/failure to vote will swing the election.

The rest of us don’t deserve to live in the tyranny they create, but life isn’t fair and the assholes are winning.

Kraken · Post by **Kraken** » Tue Dec 12, 2023 12:56 am

malchior wrote: ↑Mon Dec 11, 2023 10:37 pm
Kraken wrote: ↑Mon Dec 11, 2023 10:11 pmIf Americans vote democracy out of existence in November, we deserve what we get.
I've never understood this FWIW. I don't think we deserve any of this. There has been a widespread and concerted attack on liberalism in the Western world. And it unfortunately found a path here through the accidental Constitutional patch of the EC. If Trump wins, it'll almost certainly be again a lopsided vote where he loses the popular vote by millions and squeaks in by the tens of thousands in several small key states. I have a hard time reconciling that with some notion of "deserve".

Fair enough, I won't say it again. I get frustrated because my opinion of Americans is low and falling, but the MAGAts and christofascists and their enablers are still a minority. They're just very good at taking advantage of a system that's tilted in their favor, and gradually increasing that tilt.

I read a couple days ago that approximately 400,000 persuadable Americans spread amongst five states will determine the outcome, and both parties (now with the help of generative AI!) know exactly who they are and what they want to hear. I'm glad I don't live in one of those states because the advertising din will be deafening. We get a little splash damage from NH ad markets, but nobody wastes money advertising in MA.

LordMortis · Post by **LordMortis** » Tue Dec 12, 2023 8:38 am

Holman wrote: ↑Mon Dec 11, 2023 6:54 pm
YellowKing wrote: ↑Mon Dec 11, 2023 6:05 pm I'm already just assuming he wins next year. I've lost every bit of faith in humanity. Congrats, America, you finally beat the optimism out of me.
Why worry? According to the GOP, Kamala Harris has sole power to choose the President when the time comes.

I am amazed at how low she is portrayed as ranked, given how little she is in the news. I guess a women of color who does not know her place as a conservative is the lowest of the low.

Zaxxon wrote: ↑Mon Dec 11, 2023 7:43 pm
Zarathud wrote: ↑Mon Dec 11, 2023 5:11 pm a standard that should cause the Republican voter to abandon him.
Periodic reminder that there are no standards that would cause the Republican voter to abandon him.

Ding!

Punisher wrote: ↑Mon Dec 11, 2023 8:57 pm
YellowKing wrote: ↑Mon Dec 11, 2023 6:05 pm I'm already just assuming he wins next year. I've lost every bit of faith in humanity. Congrats, America, you finally beat the optimism out of me.
Look on the bright side, at least it will be finally over in 4 more years.

One way or another if the trajectory holds.

Zarathud wrote: ↑Mon Dec 11, 2023 10:55 pm The rest of us don’t deserve to live in the tyranny they create, but life isn’t fair and the assholes are winning.

And we failed to make it better. If humanity burns the world to the ground but it was only 3% of humanity that pushed this while 97% let it happen and they weren't powerless to stop it, "deserve" kinda fits. Does it fit here? I'm not convinced one way or another? Are we responsible? Yep and we will largely be held to account one way or another.

Unagi · Post by **Unagi** » Tue Dec 12, 2023 9:30 am

Carpet_pissr wrote: ↑Mon Dec 11, 2023 6:54 pm
YellowKing wrote: ↑Mon Dec 11, 2023 6:05 pm I'm already just assuming he wins next year. I've lost every bit of faith in humanity. Congrats, America, you finally beat the optimism out of me.
Aaaand there's my personal signal of doom...even YK is hanging it up. Damn.

I think we need the YKs of the country to stare into the abyss for a couple of minutes right now and perhaps re-engage their drive. People like YK are the key to fixing the country - good people in the middle of it all who have not previously been a big voice.

Pyperkub · Post by **Pyperkub** » Tue Dec 12, 2023 1:04 pm

The thing is that YK has tried. He has posted multiple times in this thread alone about his valiant yet vain efforts with his family, and also some coworkers.

Unagi · Post by **Unagi** » Tue Dec 12, 2023 3:10 pm

I’m forgetting.
I’m recalling statements that it wasn’t worth the discord.

Isgrimnur · Post by **Isgrimnur** » Mon Dec 18, 2023 10:51 pm

Appeals court shoots down Mark Meadows’ bid to derail Georgia racketeering case

A federal appeals court has denied Mark Meadows’ bid to move his Georgia-based criminal charges into federal court, rejecting a procedural gambit that could have derailed the state’s election-related charges against not only Meadows but also Donald Trump.

In an unsparing opinion written by a stalwart conservative judge, the court ruled that Meadows, who served as Trump’s White House chief of staff, must fight the charges against him in state court in Atlanta. Meadows had aimed to transfer the charges before a federal judge in hopes of having them quickly tossed out.

Meadows could appeal Monday’s ruling to the Supreme Court. But for now, the ruling from a three-judge panel of the 11th Circuit Court of Appeals keeps on track Fulton County District Attorney Fani Willis’ racketeering prosecution of Trump, Meadows and a dozen other allies for efforts connected to Trump’s bid to subvert the 2020 election. Former Justice Department official Jeff Clark and three GOP activists who falsely signed Electoral College paperwork are also seeking to transfer their cases to federal court, though Monday’s ruling is likely a harbinger of doom for those efforts.
...
Throughout his 36-page opinion, Pryor expressed bewilderment at Meadows’ unlimited conception of his duties as Trump’s chief of staff. Meadows’ lawyers argued that nearly every action he took was part of his official White House responsibilities — even when they involved making campaign decisions to aid Trump’s reelection.

“We cannot rubberstamp Meadows’ legal opinion that the president’s chief of staff has unfettered authority,” Pryor wrote.

Unagi · Post by **Unagi** » Tue Dec 19, 2023 2:29 pm

the haunting of the Supreme Court sucks.

Pyperkub · Post by **Pyperkub** » Tue Dec 19, 2023 6:23 pm

It appears as if there is another deadbeat/braindead client in Atlanta needing a lawyer...

Attorneys for Trevian Kutti, one of Donald Trump's co-defendants in the Georgia election racketeering case, filed notice on Monday night they no longer intend to represent the embattled publicist who has gained notoriety for her outlandish public statements.

Reached by phone, Darryl Cohen, Kutti’s Atlanta-based attorney, said that “in order to have a good lawyer-client relationship, the client has to listen, the client has to be on board and you have to be paid.”

“All these things have to happen,” Cohen added. “I'm not saying any of those things did or didn't happen, but you can extrapolate.”

Alefroth · Post by **Alefroth** » Tue Dec 19, 2023 7:29 pm

Wasn't really expecting this. Colorado Supreme Court finds Trump is disqualified from being on the ballot.

https://www.courts.state.co.us/userfile ... 3SA300.pdf

Unagi · Post by **Unagi** » Tue Dec 19, 2023 7:40 pm

Alefroth wrote: ↑Tue Dec 19, 2023 7:29 pm Wasn't really expecting this. Colorado Supreme Court finds Trump is disqualified from being on the ballot.

https://www.courts.state.co.us/userfile ... 3SA300.pdf

~fun read starts on page 7

Just came to share/talk about this too.

Amazing.
I wonder if it will stick?
Also, is this a bad precedent?

Punisher · Post by **Punisher** » Tue Dec 19, 2023 8:20 pm

Unagi wrote: ↑Tue Dec 19, 2023 7:40 pm
Alefroth wrote: ↑Tue Dec 19, 2023 7:29 pm Wasn't really expecting this. Colorado Supreme Court finds Trump is disqualified from being on the ballot.

https://www.courts.state.co.us/userfile ... 3SA300.pdf
~fun read starts on page 7

Just came to share/talk about this too.

Amazing.
I wonder if it will stick?
Also, is this a bad precedent?

Just curioys. Why do you think it would be a bad precedent?

Smoove_B · Post by **Smoove_B** » Tue Dec 19, 2023 8:21 pm

Punisher wrote: ↑Tue Dec 19, 2023 8:20 pm Just curioys. Why do you think it would be a bad precedent?

Because there are going to be clowns in the GOP that will declare Biden ineligible (with the support of MAGA judges) to be on the ballot because of Hunter Biden's laptop.

Punisher · Post by **Punisher** » Tue Dec 19, 2023 8:24 pm

Smoove_B wrote: ↑Tue Dec 19, 2023 8:21 pm
Punisher wrote: ↑Tue Dec 19, 2023 8:20 pm Just curioys. Why do you think it would be a bad precedent?
Because there are going to be clowns in the GOP that will declare Biden ineligible (with the support of MAGA judges) to be on the ballot because of Hunter Biden's laptop.

But isn't this specifically a ban due to the insurrection claise and Trumps direct involvement?
If so, I would assume that they could try, but that it wouldn't hold up in court.
I think this needs to be held up as a reminder that the president is not a king/queen who can do whatever they want.

El Guapo · Post by **El Guapo** » Tue Dec 19, 2023 8:32 pm

Unagi wrote: ↑Tue Dec 19, 2023 7:40 pm
Alefroth wrote: ↑Tue Dec 19, 2023 7:29 pm Wasn't really expecting this. Colorado Supreme Court finds Trump is disqualified from being on the ballot.

https://www.courts.state.co.us/userfile ... 3SA300.pdf
~fun read starts on page 7

Just came to share/talk about this too.

Amazing.
I wonder if it will stick?
Also, is this a bad precedent?

In a way it is simulaneously amazing and a straightforward application of facts to law.

That said, I think it's pretty unlikely that it sticks. The conservative majority has a couple plausible ways to get rid of this without having to engage on whether or not Trump engaged in an insurrection. That said, Republican politicians have almost from the beginning been waiting for someone else to do the work of removing Trump from the political stage. SCOTUS, as a politically insulated institution, could do the work of jumping on that grenade for everyone. I don't think they will, but realistically I think that's the only way that this gets upheld.

As for precedent, I'm torn. I am absolutely terrified of a scenario where a conservative state supreme court created by gerrymander in a purple state keeps the Democratic nominee off the ballot in that state on flimsy grounds. On the other, the potential for abuse in the future is often not a totally satisfactory reason to not apply the law fairly here.

Unagi · Post by **Unagi** » Tue Dec 19, 2023 8:35 pm

El Guapo wrote: ↑Tue Dec 19, 2023 8:32 pm On the other, the potential for abuse in the future is often not a totally satisfactory reason to not apply the law fairly here.

This is where I land on it. If not - then it's lost anyway - is how I see it.

But, yeah - I could see Texas finding some Hunter Biden reason to take Biden off the ballot - but I hope that 'insurrection' is the bar that needs to be crossed - not Hunter Biden.

El Guapo · Post by **El Guapo** » Tue Dec 19, 2023 8:37 pm

It's also worth stating the obvious that Colorado is not voting for Trump in 2024 regardless, so this doesn't realistically impact the election outcome directly. Things only get really real if this is upheld by SCOTUS or if there's a similar ruling in a swing or red state.

I also wonder a bit whether this creates an opening for Nikki Haley to gain grounds on a "hey, maybe let's not nominate someone at material legal risk of getting disqualified". Though obviously that would be painted by Trump as the "deep state" keeping him down, and he'd probably gain support.

Alefroth · Post by **Alefroth** » Tue Dec 19, 2023 8:40 pm

El Guapo wrote: ↑Tue Dec 19, 2023 8:32 pm
Unagi wrote: ↑Tue Dec 19, 2023 7:40 pm
Alefroth wrote: ↑Tue Dec 19, 2023 7:29 pm Wasn't really expecting this. Colorado Supreme Court finds Trump is disqualified from being on the ballot.

https://www.courts.state.co.us/userfile ... 3SA300.pdf
~fun read starts on page 7

Just came to share/talk about this too.

Amazing.
I wonder if it will stick?
Also, is this a bad precedent?
On the other, the potential for abuse in the future is often not a totally satisfactory reason to not apply the law fairly here.

That's where I think we need to stand.

Unagi · Post by **Unagi** » Tue Dec 19, 2023 8:44 pm

The risk of a bad President Trump trumps the risk of a bad precedent.

Alefroth · Post by **Alefroth** » Tue Dec 19, 2023 8:48 pm

Trump's lawyers are obviously going to appeal it, but the case is Anderson v. Griswold. How would Trump appealing it work?

El Guapo · Post by **El Guapo** » Tue Dec 19, 2023 9:25 pm

Alefroth wrote: ↑Tue Dec 19, 2023 8:48 pm Trump's lawyers are obviously going to appeal it, but the case is Anderson v. Griswold. How would Trump appealing it work?

Trump intervened in the lawsuit. There's no question that Trump is a "party at interest" in these proceedings, so that's not controversial.

Alefroth · Post by **Alefroth** » Tue Dec 19, 2023 9:32 pm

I see, thanks.

waitingtoconnect · Post by **waitingtoconnect** » Tue Dec 19, 2023 10:34 pm

El Guapo wrote: ↑Tue Dec 19, 2023 8:37 pm It's also worth stating the obvious that Colorado is not voting for Trump in 2024 regardless, so this doesn't realistically impact the election outcome directly. Things only get really real if this is upheld by SCOTUS or if there's a similar ruling in a swing or red state.

I also wonder a bit whether this creates an opening for Nikki Haley to gain grounds on a "hey, maybe let's not nominate someone at material legal risk of getting disqualified". Though obviously that would be painted by Trump as the "deep state" keeping him down, and he'd probably gain support.

If you ask people I know who support Maga; she is a “pretend” American RINO traitor who betrayed Trump by running against him. Realistically there is no one but trump who can win in 2024.

Once Hamas hit Israel that guaranteed a Trump win.

Kraken · Post by **Kraken** » Tue Dec 19, 2023 10:41 pm

This seems obvious to my naive non-legal mind: Trump has not been convicted of insurrection. He's been charged and is being tried, but the jury is out. Without that conviction, trump is not guilty of insurrection and therefore the 14A doesn't apply to him (yet). It pains me to side with trump on anything whatsoever, but the presumption of innocence is paramount here.

Convince me otherwise.

Smoove_B · Post by **Smoove_B** » Tue Dec 19, 2023 10:56 pm

Kraken wrote: ↑Tue Dec 19, 2023 10:41 pm the 14A doesn't apply to him (yet).

The 14A says nothing about being convicted; it seemingly only requires demonstration that someone "engaged in insurrection or rebellion" in order to be disqualified.

Which, if you think about it, makes sense given what they were trying to address when the 14A was passed - preventing Civil War soldiers and leadership from gaining power in the federal government.

SEE: here:

The intent was to prevent the president from allowing former leaders of the Confederacy to regain power within the U.S. government after securing a presidential pardon. It states that a two-thirds majority vote in Congress is required to allow public officials who had engaged in rebellion to regain the rights of American citizenship and hold government or military office.

Alefroth · Post by **Alefroth** » Tue Dec 19, 2023 11:16 pm

Kraken wrote: ↑Tue Dec 19, 2023 10:41 pm This seems obvious to my naive non-legal mind: Trump has not been convicted of insurrection. He's been charged and is being tried, but the jury is out. Without that conviction, trump is not guilty of insurrection and therefore the 14A doesn't apply to him (yet). It pains me to side with trump on anything whatsoever, but the presumption of innocence is paramount here.

Convince me otherwise.

A judge has ruled it, doesn't that have the same weight as a jury? Doesn't presumption of innocence only apply to trials? Trump hasn't been charged with insurrection, so the jury can't be out.