Racism in America (with data)

LawBeefaroni · Post by **LawBeefaroni** » Thu Nov 11, 2021 4:09 pm

malchior wrote: ↑Thu Nov 11, 2021 3:46 pm
hepcat wrote: ↑Thu Nov 11, 2021 3:18 pm That may have just been a blunder on his part. But the optics aren't good considering that he's being accused of showing favoritism by more than a few.
On one hand it is totally normal. I mean we just did the same thing in one meeting I was just a part of. On the other hand, the only person it applied to wasn't the expert witness in a high profile murder trial.

It's a live courtroom with jurors present. That's just terrible judgement.

malchior · Post by **malchior** » Thu Nov 11, 2021 4:15 pm

He's been on a roll today. People are tweeting out some dumb ass comment he made about waiting on 'Asian food' that he hopes isn't stuck on in a boat in Long Beach harbor. You can't make this shit up.

$iljanus · Post by **$iljanus** » Thu Nov 11, 2021 4:32 pm

malchior wrote: ↑Thu Nov 11, 2021 4:15 pm He's been on a roll today. People are tweeting out some dumb ass comment he made about waiting on 'Asian food' that he hopes isn't stuck on in a boat in Long Beach harbor. You can't make this shit up.

As an Asian American fella I actually thought that was kind of funny.

Now if he were to make a reference to eating bat or some other nonsense then I'd be more outraged but that's just me

malchior · Post by **malchior** » Thu Nov 11, 2021 4:43 pm

$iljanus wrote: ↑Thu Nov 11, 2021 4:32 pm
malchior wrote: ↑Thu Nov 11, 2021 4:15 pm He's been on a roll today. People are tweeting out some dumb ass comment he made about waiting on 'Asian food' that he hopes isn't stuck on in a boat in Long Beach harbor. You can't make this shit up.
As an Asian American fella I actually thought that was kind of funny.

Now if he were to make a reference to eating bat or some other nonsense then I'd be more outraged but that's just me

Yeah I more mean this is a judge who knows he has tons of attention on him and he is just I don't know...a bit of a social dumbass. Like I said one of my Canadian friends called American judges largely 'unprofessional' and I can sort of see what she means now. Of course, that comes from a culture where you can't turn your back on the judge.

stimpy · Post by **stimpy** » Thu Nov 11, 2021 4:51 pm

$iljanus wrote: ↑Thu Nov 11, 2021 4:32 pm
malchior wrote: ↑Thu Nov 11, 2021 4:15 pm He's been on a roll today. People are tweeting out some dumb ass comment he made about waiting on 'Asian food' that he hopes isn't stuck on in a boat in Long Beach harbor. You can't make this shit up.
As an Asian American fella I actually thought that was kind of funny.

As an non-Asian American fella, so did I.

LawBeefaroni · Post by **LawBeefaroni** » Thu Nov 11, 2021 5:13 pm

$iljanus wrote: ↑Thu Nov 11, 2021 4:32 pm
malchior wrote: ↑Thu Nov 11, 2021 4:15 pm He's been on a roll today. People are tweeting out some dumb ass comment he made about waiting on 'Asian food' that he hopes isn't stuck on in a boat in Long Beach harbor. You can't make this shit up.
As an Asian American fella I actually thought that was kind of funny.

Now if he were to make a reference to eating bat or some other nonsense then I'd be more outraged but that's just me

Funny or not, why even risk it? Act like a professional. Quit making "jokes" when you know every single word is going to be broadcast and scrutinized. Is he auditioning to host Jeopardy or running a courtroom under national spotlight?

hepcat · Post by **hepcat** » Thu Nov 11, 2021 5:17 pm

He's 75. He's not going to get a better shot at a Bravo reality show than this.

...although the direction he's going now, it may end up on OAN.

LordMortis · Post by **LordMortis** » Thu Nov 11, 2021 5:21 pm

LawBeefaroni wrote: ↑Thu Nov 11, 2021 5:13 pm Is he auditioning to host Jeopardy or running a courtroom under national spotlight?

Which raises the question, did Jeopardy know Rodgers was "immunized" rather than vaccinated?

hepcat wrote: ↑Thu Nov 11, 2021 5:17 pm He's 75. He's not going to get a better shot at a Bravo reality show than this.

...although the direction he's going now, it may end up on OAN.

Or Newsmax

$iljanus · Post by **$iljanus** » Thu Nov 11, 2021 5:26 pm

LawBeefaroni wrote: ↑Thu Nov 11, 2021 5:13 pm
$iljanus wrote: ↑Thu Nov 11, 2021 4:32 pm
malchior wrote: ↑Thu Nov 11, 2021 4:15 pm He's been on a roll today. People are tweeting out some dumb ass comment he made about waiting on 'Asian food' that he hopes isn't stuck on in a boat in Long Beach harbor. You can't make this shit up.
As an Asian American fella I actually thought that was kind of funny.

Now if he were to make a reference to eating bat or some other nonsense then I'd be more outraged but that's just me
Funny or not, why even risk it? Act like a professional. Quit making "jokes" when you know every single word is going to be broadcast and scrutinized. Is he auditioning to host Jeopardy or running a courtroom under national spotlight?

As Hepcat pointed out, he's 75 so old folks are gonna say the darnedest things! Although I sometimes find that old folks and their witticisms these days can either be tone deaf but harmless or they can be telling you to go back to China which was said to me by some old dipshit who was jaywalking in front of me as I was making a turn.

But I’ll also say that I’ll agree with Lawbeef that a sitting judge on a case with national exposure needs to dial back the schtick.

Zarathud · Post by **Zarathud** » Thu Nov 11, 2021 8:26 pm

LawBeefaroni wrote:They deal with lawyers all day. Of course they're going to have short fuses and yell a lot.

This. Judges have to win the pissing matches against assholes in their courtroom every day.

A good prosecutor knows how far to push without getting the judge pissed. This is what they do.

Little Raven · Post by **Little Raven** » Sun Nov 14, 2021 3:00 pm

Gov. Evers authorizes National Guard troops to Kenosha following Rittenhouse trial

Wisconsin Gov. Tony Evers announced Friday that approximately 500 Wisconsin Army National Guard troops have been authorized to support authorities in Kenosha following the trial of Kyle Rittenhouse.

Members of the National Guard will stage outside Kenosha in a standby status to respond if requested by local law enforcement agencies, officials say.

Probably wise, although I'm cautiously optimistic that things will remain calm.

Scoop20906 · Post by **Scoop20906** » Mon Nov 15, 2021 12:40 am

Not to derail the thread but I wanted to share that I’m moving. Before moving I tried to find a community or town in the USA that wasn’t racist and was pleasant for me to live in (my personal criteria). I researched for months. Every time I found a good candidate it was simple to find
at article or story about some vile, racist thing that happened there a long time ago, recently or close by. Some of my research was very eye opening. I caused me to look at myself and family quite differently and not kindly either.

My evaluation lead me to realize that racism is baked into the American culture, federal and state systems and laws. It’s so pervasive that you can’t avoid it even in minimal ways. And it’s such a destructive force I’m not sure what holds the whole thing together.

I’m still moving and hopefully to a safe community for my family and children but danger isn’t far off in this country.

Isgrimnur · Post by **Isgrimnur** » Mon Nov 15, 2021 1:02 am

Sooo.... Southlake, TX?

Blackhawk · Post by **Blackhawk** » Mon Nov 15, 2021 9:37 am

We have practically no racial incidents where I live. Ever. The statistics make us look great. Until you realize that we're 98% white. We don't have racist incidents here because there are no races.

Another way of looking at it is that we had enough racist incidents (and policies) in the past 200 years to ensure that there are no 'issues' in the present.

LawBeefaroni · Post by **LawBeefaroni** » Mon Nov 15, 2021 10:13 am

I was thinking about this in light of the John Audubon cancellation. Vile history, deserved, all that, but like Scoop found, you dig deep enough, go back far enough, everything is tainted. I have no issue with exposing these things but can we come up with some kind of asterisk system? Identify and call out the racist past but also acknowledge all facets of history somehow?

These people did great things because they cheated. They used slaves, profited from racism, etc. Enjoy Audubon's birds but don't worship the man. That's basically the history of America.

Blackhawk · Post by **Blackhawk** » Mon Nov 15, 2021 10:59 am

I've seen plenty of asterisks in reference to Lovecraft and Howard. It's a good approach. Without it, nothing prior to the mid 20th century can survive.

Little Raven · Post by **Little Raven** » Mon Nov 15, 2021 12:31 pm

Well, I was wrong about the whole dead to rights thing.

Judge dismisses the weapons charge.

The judge at Kyle Rittenhouse’s murder trial on Monday dismissed a count of possession of a dangerous weapon by a person under 18, a misdemeanor that had appeared to be among the likeliest of the charges to net a conviction for prosecutors.

...

There is no dispute that Rittenhouse was 17 when he carried an AR-style semi-automatic rifle on the streets of Kenosha and used it.

But the defense argued that Wisconsin law had an exception that could be read to clear Rittenhouse. After prosecutors conceded on Monday that Rittenhouse’s rifle was not short-barreled, Judge Bruce Schroeder dismissed the charge.

Octavious · Post by **Octavious** » Mon Nov 15, 2021 12:54 pm

Seems like the judge is really going out of his way to make sure this kid gets nothing. I really don't see them convicting him of murder so he's going to go free and clear while two people are dead. Probably get his own talk show and make millions. AMERICA! USA USA!

pr0ner · Post by **pr0ner** » Mon Nov 15, 2021 12:55 pm

Little Raven wrote: ↑Thu Nov 11, 2021 12:27 pm The idea that there's some kind of "general population" left in this forum is hilarious. Even pros like proner can only take it small doses these days.

LTTP, but this is correct. R&P here has basically turned into an echo chamber of people yelling some variety of "we're fucked" over and over. There's no "general population" left.

LawBeefaroni · Post by **LawBeefaroni** » Mon Nov 15, 2021 1:02 pm

Little Raven wrote: ↑Mon Nov 15, 2021 12:31 pm Well, I was wrong about the whole dead to rights thing.

Judge dismisses the weapons charge.
The judge at Kyle Rittenhouse’s murder trial on Monday dismissed a count of possession of a dangerous weapon by a person under 18, a misdemeanor that had appeared to be among the likeliest of the charges to net a conviction for prosecutors.

...

There is no dispute that Rittenhouse was 17 when he carried an AR-style semi-automatic rifle on the streets of Kenosha and used it.

But the defense argued that Wisconsin law had an exception that could be read to clear Rittenhouse. After prosecutors conceded on Monday that Rittenhouse’s rifle was not short-barreled, Judge Bruce Schroeder dismissed the charge.

What? If it were an SBR it would be a federal NFA violation and a felony. How does the fact that it's not an SBR get him off the state charge?

Little Raven · Post by **Little Raven** » Mon Nov 15, 2021 1:10 pm

LawBeefaroni wrote: ↑Mon Nov 15, 2021 1:02 pmWhat? If it were an SBR it would be a federal NFA violation and a felony. How does the fact that it's not an SBR get him off the state charge?

Got me. I'll see if I can find a Wisconsin lawyer to break it down. This one gets technical.

Smoove_B · Post by **Smoove_B** » Mon Nov 15, 2021 1:12 pm

pr0ner wrote: ↑Mon Nov 15, 2021 12:55 pm LTTP, but this is correct. R&P here has basically turned into an echo chamber of people yelling some variety of "we're fucked" over and over. There's no "general population" left.

To be fair, the first group that left were the ones yelling with glee, "you're fucked".

LawBeefaroni · Post by **LawBeefaroni** » Mon Nov 15, 2021 1:17 pm

Little Raven wrote: ↑Mon Nov 15, 2021 1:10 pm
LawBeefaroni wrote: ↑Mon Nov 15, 2021 1:02 pmWhat? If it were an SBR it would be a federal NFA violation and a felony. How does the fact that it's not an SBR get him off the state charge?
Got me. I'll see if I can find a Wisconsin lawyer to break it down. This one gets technical.

The only ambiguity I recall was in relation to the language around hunting. Nothing at all having to do with barrel length. I guess he did go hunting...

Scoop20906 · Post by **Scoop20906** » Mon Nov 15, 2021 1:17 pm

LawBeefaroni wrote: ↑Mon Nov 15, 2021 10:13 am I was thinking about this in light of the John Audubon cancellation. Vile history, deserved, all that, but like Scoop found, you dig deep enough, go back far enough, everything is tainted. I have no issue with exposing these things but can we come up with some kind of asterisk system? Identify and call out the racist past but also acknowledge all facets of history somehow?

These people did great things because they cheated. They used slaves, profited from racism, etc. Enjoy Audubon's birds but don't worship the man. That's basically the history of America.

LawBeefaroni, here is the thing. I can't speak for other minorities but I know that my wife and her family absolutely are not about cancelling anything. They simply want two things:

Acknowledgement of America's true racist history. (No punishment or reparations, just honesty)
Proper and unbiased treatment in American culture/financial spaces.

If minorities could get those two things then white people wouldn't have to be terrified of being called a racist.

But you know the people that won't let racism die and keep making sure you know where you belong??? The racists.

And they do it in subtle ways constantly almost like breathing. You don't have to explain to a minority that almost everything in the USA has a racist tint. (I'm white so I don't experience what my wife and children get to experience so I'm still in my learning journey on this.)

But now that I am aware it is practically constant every day. For every cop killing a black suspect there are 10 billion micro aggressions that when added together ultimately are more damaging.

So, I'm not trying to be a dick when I say to you that cancel culture has nothing to do with minorities cancelling John Audubon or anyone else. If minorities actually had that kind of power then they wouldn't be in the minority as much as they are in this country. It's the racists (and unknowing racists) that keep this crap alive and until we start to expect white people to realize that racism and American history (Human Slavery) is a White person's history and not simply a minoritie's story, we aren't going to make much progress.

Slavery was a decision by white people in this country. Pervasive racist was constructed and enforced by white people in this country. Does anyone honestly think minorities are the power structure behind racism and if they'd just GET OVER IT everything would be ok?

We (white people) need to own this. Will white people ever even try to own this? Signs point to no and it is disgusting.

Smoove_B · Post by **Smoove_B** » Mon Nov 15, 2021 1:26 pm

LawBeefaroni wrote: ↑Mon Nov 15, 2021 1:17 pm The only ambiguity I recall was in relation to the language around hunting. Nothing at all having to do with barrel length. I guess he did go hunting...

So is the core argument here that it's legal to bring a firearm to a public gathering or demonstration of some type in Wisconsin? Is that what this is all going to come down to and that Kyle was just "defending himself" - not that he arrived with a pre-meditated purpose and then acted with intent?

Also, why is no one talking about his mom's role in all this?

LawBeefaroni · Post by **LawBeefaroni** » Mon Nov 15, 2021 1:43 pm

As a minority minority (mixed race) I've never had skin in any game. Not having a "tribe" to claim or claim me pretty much left me to find my own way. I'll be the first to admit I'm dismissive of both sides of this but I also have a fairly unique POV.

Scoop20906 wrote: ↑Mon Nov 15, 2021 1:17 pm

Acknowledgement of America's true racist history. (No punishment or reparations, just honesty)

Proper and unbiased treatment in American culture/financial spaces.

If minorities could get those two things then white people wouldn't have to be terrified of being called a racist.

You know what that sounds like?

Acceptance of historical/scientific fact.
Social and economic equity.

Not sure which list is more of an uphill battle, unfortunately.

Scoop20906 wrote: ↑Mon Nov 15, 2021 1:17 pm We (white people) need to own this. Will white people ever even try to own this? Signs point to no and it is disgusting.

They don't have to own anything. They just have to listen and not be dicks.

Scoop20906 · Post by **Scoop20906** » Mon Nov 15, 2021 1:43 pm

Blackhawk wrote: ↑Mon Nov 15, 2021 10:59 am I've seen plenty of asterisks in reference to Lovecraft and Howard. It's a good approach. Without it, nothing prior to the mid 20th century can survive.

Here is the thing. From my perspective most minorities don't want to cancel the past, they just wanted it presented truthfully and in the proper context. The problem with American Patriotism/Fictionalism is that it is presented that white people just rolled up their sleeves and built this country with pure grit. While its a pretty story it ain't true. The truth could still be a great story because we have built a wonderful country but it is a "WE".

Minorities are not going to burn down our country. If that was going to happen it would have happened a long time ago. They have been given plenty of reason to yet they still work hard and building up American. Can you think of one minority you know who is trying to take down the government? Name one? I bet you know some MAGA assholes who are. Who really is the problem here?

LawBeefaroni · Post by **LawBeefaroni** » Mon Nov 15, 2021 1:45 pm

Smoove_B wrote: ↑Mon Nov 15, 2021 1:26 pm
LawBeefaroni wrote: ↑Mon Nov 15, 2021 1:17 pm The only ambiguity I recall was in relation to the language around hunting. Nothing at all having to do with barrel length. I guess he did go hunting...
So is the core argument here that it's legal to bring a firearm to a public gathering or demonstration of some type in Wisconsin? Is that what this is all going to come down to and that Kyle was just "defending himself" - not that he arrived with a pre-meditated purpose and then acted with intent?

Also, why is no one talking about his mom's role in all this?

He was under 18 and by Wisconsin law U18s cannot possess a firearm except when under direct supervision for instruction/training or when hunting under supervision. Apparently they found ambiguity in the law and the Judge dismissed the under 18 illegal possession.

Isgrimnur · Post by **Isgrimnur** » Mon Nov 15, 2021 1:47 pm

LawBeefaroni wrote: ↑Mon Nov 15, 2021 1:43 pm They don't have to own anything. They just have to listen and not be dicks.

Scoop20906 · Post by **Scoop20906** » Mon Nov 15, 2021 1:49 pm

LawBeefaroni wrote: ↑Mon Nov 15, 2021 1:43 pm
Scoop20906 wrote: ↑Mon Nov 15, 2021 1:17 pm

Acknowledgement of America's true racist history. (No punishment or reparations, just honesty)

Proper and unbiased treatment in American culture/financial spaces.

If minorities could get those two things then white people wouldn't have to be terrified of being called a racist.
You know what that sounds like?

Acceptance of historical/scientific fact.

Social and economic equity.

Not sure which list is more of an uphill battle, unfortunately.

Agreed on this.

LawBeefaroni wrote: ↑Mon Nov 15, 2021 1:43 pm
Scoop20906 wrote: ↑Mon Nov 15, 2021 1:17 pm We (white people) need to own this. Will white people ever even try to own this? Signs point to no and it is disgusting.
They don't have to own anything. They just have to listen and not be dicks.

From my white perspective, listening would be a nice start but I really think the culture can't change until white people accept it's their history and their responsibilities to improve considering they are the ones holding on to racism the hardest. But yeah, listening would start that process.

Thanks for discussing. I'm super emotional about this topic (I got skin in the game) so I'll admit I can lose my objectivity at times.

Scoop20906 · Post by **Scoop20906** » Mon Nov 15, 2021 1:52 pm

Octavious wrote: ↑Mon Nov 15, 2021 12:54 pm Seems like the judge is really going out of his way to make sure this kid gets nothing. I really don't see them convicting him of murder so he's going to go free and clear while two people are dead. Probably get his own talk show and make millions. AMERICA! USA USA!

That is the system on full display and its not an accident.

Little Raven · Post by **Little Raven** » Mon Nov 15, 2021 2:09 pm

Smoove_B wrote: ↑Mon Nov 15, 2021 1:26 pmSo is the core argument here that it's legal to bring a firearm to a public gathering or demonstration of some type in Wisconsin?

It's legal to carry a firearm in most places in the United States at most times. It's certainly legal for an adult to carry an AR-15 in Wisconsin. But Rittenhouse was only 17, which opened him up to a charge of Possession of a Dangerous Weapon by a person under 18. (948.60)

Now, here's where things get complicated. Strap in.

Part 1 of this law defines "dangerous weapon" as any firearm, loaded or unloaded, along with a bunch of other stuff.

Part 2 says that "Any person under 18 years of age who posesses or goes armed with a dangerous weapon is guilty of a Class A misdemeanor."

But Part 3, subclause (c), puts in an exception, saying that this only applies to a person under 18 years of age who posses a rifle or shotgun that violates Section 941.28. Section 941.28 specifies that only possession of a shirt-barreled rifle or shotgun qualifies.

So....given the way the law is written, the judge is not really out of line here, but at the same time, if you read the law that way, it seems to pretty much render the whole law moot in regards to firearms, since, as Lawbeef points out, short-barreled rifles and shotguns are already illegal under Federal law.

Not a great job writing that law, Wisconsin legislature.

Is that what this is all going to come down to and that Kyle was just "defending himself" - not that he arrived with a pre-meditated purpose and then acted with intent?

The prosecution has never even TRIED to make that case, and with good reason - it's almost impossible to prove.

Also, why is no one talking about his mom's role in all this?

People have talked about it plenty, but there's not much the court can do about it. He's being tried as an adult.

LawBeefaroni · Post by **LawBeefaroni** » Mon Nov 15, 2021 2:13 pm

*SBRs require an NFA tax stamp to be federally legal. But point is still valid. The Wis law is essentially meaningless if it's limited to SBRs.

Little Raven · Post by **Little Raven** » Mon Nov 15, 2021 2:16 pm

LawBeefaroni wrote: ↑Mon Nov 15, 2021 1:17 pmThe only ambiguity I recall was in relation to the language around hunting. Nothing at all having to do with barrel length. I guess he did go hunting...

The hunting exceptions are 29.304 (Restrictions on hunting and use of firearms by persons under 16 years of age) and 29.593. (Requirements for certification) The defense argued that 29.304 does not apply because Kyle was 17 at the time, and 29.593 did not apply because Kyle was not hunting. They relied entirely on the definition of "dangerous weapon" under 948.60.

At least, as far as I can tell. IANAL, after all. Much less a Wisconsin lawyer.

Smoove_B · Post by **Smoove_B** » Mon Nov 15, 2021 2:41 pm

Little Raven wrote: ↑Mon Nov 15, 2021 2:09 pm It's legal to carry a firearm in most places in the United States at most times.

My state/location bias kicks in again. I keep forgetting it's not typical to never see guns anywhere at any time. Other than police officers or random hunters standing on the side of their road, you're not going to see open carry anywhere in NJ. Ever.

And while I don't want to turn this into a 2A debate, I'm hard pressed to understand how anyone could argue in good faith that having random people showing up to things like this and carrying firearms (openly, no less) is technically legal so, America - f yeah!

It seems pretty clear (to me) that he arrived with intent. Maybe I'm not lawerly enough to argue that in a courtroom, but I believe it in my heart.

People have talked about it plenty, but there's not much the court can do about it. He's being tried as an adult.

I guess this is all couched in my belief that there was intent - and she drove him there knowing full well what he was interested in doing.

This entire court case is shameful, though I do appreciate the breakdown of nuance in how he magically wasn't charged.

LawBeefaroni · Post by **LawBeefaroni** » Mon Nov 15, 2021 2:53 pm

Smoove_B wrote: ↑Mon Nov 15, 2021 2:41 pm

My state/location bias kicks in again. I keep forgetting it's not typical to never see guns anywhere at any time. Other than police officers or random hunters standing on the side of their road, you're not going to see open carry anywhere in NJ. Ever.

And while I don't want to turn this into a 2A debate, I'm hard pressed to understand how anyone could argue in good faith that having random people showing up to things like this and carrying firearms (openly, no less) is technically legal so, America - f yeah!

Open carry is illegal in Illinois too, which is where Rittenhouse is from. He's also not legally allowed to own or possess the rifle here (hunting being an exception).

It was like gun tourism for him.

Little Raven · Post by **Little Raven** » Mon Nov 15, 2021 3:02 pm

Smoove_B wrote: ↑Mon Nov 15, 2021 2:41 pmMy state/location bias kicks in again.

Understandable. America is a HUGE place, and almost unbelievably diverse.

And while I don't want to turn this into a 2A debate, I'm hard pressed to understand how anyone could argue in good faith that having random people showing up to things like this and carrying firearms (openly, no less) is technically legal so, America - f yeah!

I'm not sure what you mean by "things like this." I'm not a huge fan of armed protesting. I get it, if you do it right its perfectly legal, but I'm not convinced its ever a good idea.

But what was happening in Kenosha that night was not a protest. It was a full blown riot. Buildings were being burned, people were being assaulted. The police were utterly overmatched, and the governor had been slow to order in the guard. Chaos reigned on the streets. I'm not sure I'm going to blame anyone for showing up armed to THAT.

It seems pretty clear (to me) that he arrived with intent. Maybe I'm not lawerly enough to argue that in a courtroom, but I believe it in my heart.

It's not your lack of skill that's the problem, it's the facts as we currently understand them. If you make the argument that Kyle traveled to Kenosha with the intent of killing someone, the first question the defense is going to ask is "Then why did he wait until someone attacked him? He was out there for HOURS with his rifle and an unfriendly crowd. But he didn't shoot anyone until other people started shooting and someone lunged for his rifle?"

Nobody, regardless of lawyerly acumen, wants to try and make that case.

I guess this is all couched in my belief that there was intent - and she drove him there knowing full well what he was interested in doing.

But she didn't drive him there. He drove himself. His mother testified that she didn't know where he was that night until after the shooting.

geezer · Post by **geezer** » Mon Nov 15, 2021 4:07 pm

pr0ner wrote: ↑Mon Nov 15, 2021 12:55 pm
Little Raven wrote: ↑Thu Nov 11, 2021 12:27 pm The idea that there's some kind of "general population" left in this forum is hilarious. Even pros like proner can only take it small doses these days.
LTTP, but this is correct. R&P here has basically turned into an echo chamber of people yelling some variety of "we're fucked" over and over. There's no "general population" left.

Are we really supposed to embrace the "good people on both sides" narrative when this is the other side? The "side" that not only tolerates, but celebrates those kinds of statements is, unequivocally, a danger to a society that values more than one kind of person, and there's a real chance that that "side" may win some degree of actual power again soon. If nothing else, we know that this isn't a small, irrelevant faction of America. Why, pray tell, should we NOT be an "echo chamber" screaming in unison against that?

malchior · Post by **malchior** » Mon Nov 15, 2021 4:20 pm

geezer wrote: ↑Mon Nov 15, 2021 4:07 pmAre we really supposed to embrace the "good people on both sides" narrative when this is the other side? The "side" that not only tolerates, but celebrate those kinds of statements is, unequivocally, a danger to a society that values more than one kind of person, and there's a real chance that that "side" may win some degree of actual power again soon. If nothing else, we know that this isn't a small, irrelevant faction of America. Why, pray tell, should we NOT be an "echo chamber" screaming in unison against that?

There is a faction of Americans who think it is their role to tell us we are over-reacting. Even in the continuing face of the breakdown of our democracy, rampant elite unaccountability, widespread financial insecurity, etc. It really feels like no matter how far down the chute we go they either don't like the 'negativity' or think it's all out of perspective. I hope they are right but it is an increasingly tenuous viewpoint.

Little Raven · Post by **Little Raven** » Mon Nov 15, 2021 4:25 pm

geezer wrote: ↑Mon Nov 15, 2021 4:07 pmWhy, pray tell, should we NOT be an "echo chamber" screaming in unison against that?

Proner isn't saying you should or shouldn't be doing anything. He's just commenting on what this forum has obviously become. There's like 10 regular commentators now, with maybe 20 more that pop in once in a while. Virtually all of whom belong to an impossibly tiny sliver of the American population.

And that's fine. There's no harm in recognizing it.