Octopus Overlords

Moliere wrote: ↑Tue Jun 12, 2018 3:29 pm Seattle Now Wants to Repeal Controversial Amazon Tax

Yesterday Seattle Mayor Jenny Durkan, along with seven of nine city councilmembers, released a statement announcing their intention to repeal the controversial employee head tax.

Cowards, afraid of the sheeple
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cddJqJZ1HNM

Bezos announced today that the minimum wage at Amazon and Whole Foods will be $15/hr effective next month. Furthermore, he intends to advocate for a national $15 minimum.

$15 * 40 = $600/wk * 52 = $31,200/yr. A person could get by on that if Amazon also offers full-time workers health insurance and other common benefits.

Amazon is exactly the sort of company that should be pushing minimum wages to $15. The thing to watch will be whether workers see their hours trimmed or if there is a reduction in headcount after the introduction of the higher wage.

Fireball wrote: ↑Tue Oct 02, 2018 2:34 pm Amazon is exactly the sort of company that should be pushing minimum wages to $15. The thing to watch will be whether workers see their hours trimmed or if there is a reduction in headcount after the introduction of the higher wage.

I bet Sanders's social media team is going nuts about this right now.

El Guapo wrote: ↑Tue Oct 02, 2018 2:36 pm

Fireball wrote: ↑Tue Oct 02, 2018 2:34 pm Amazon is exactly the sort of company that should be pushing minimum wages to $15. The thing to watch will be whether workers see their hours trimmed or if there is a reduction in headcount after the introduction of the higher wage.

I bet Sanders's social media team is going nuts about this right now.

That's where I read the news. Bernie ordinarily has no kind words for Bezos, but he gives credit where it's due.

Fireball wrote: ↑Tue Oct 02, 2018 2:34 pm Amazon is exactly the sort of company that should be pushing minimum wages to $15. The thing to watch will be whether workers see their hours trimmed or if there is a reduction in headcount after the introduction of the higher wage.

News reports this morning that Amazon is paying for this by cutting other benefits. They didn't elaborate; I presume Amazon did a study and found which benefits employees would rather drop in favor of more $$$.

Still a lot better than the company I work for that drops benefits and doesn't even provide CoL increases.

NPR

In another change, Amazon will phase out its Restricted Stock Unit program for order fulfillment and customer service employees who are paid hourly. Those workers currently receive shares of stock if they meet certain conditions. But the company says the employees have said, "They prefer the predictability and immediacy of cash to RSUs."

For those hourly workers, Amazon plans to replace its RSU grant program with a direct stock purchase plan by the end of 2019. The net effect, the company says, will mean "significantly more total compensation" for the workers.

NBC

As part of Amazon’s new pay structure, the company ended its bonus and stock incentive programs for warehouse and customer service workers. Those payments rewarded workers for staying with the company and for working consistently.

"It's a joke," said Amazon warehouse employee Vicki Shannon Allen, who made headlines this summer after she made videos documenting her experience as a homeless Amazon employee. "We get no more bonuses for not missing any work. "

Jeff V wrote: ↑Thu Oct 04, 2018 10:50 am

Fireball wrote: ↑Tue Oct 02, 2018 2:34 pm Amazon is exactly the sort of company that should be pushing minimum wages to $15. The thing to watch will be whether workers see their hours trimmed or if there is a reduction in headcount after the introduction of the higher wage.

News reports this morning that Amazon is paying for this by cutting other benefits. They didn't elaborate; I presume Amazon did a study and found which benefits employees would rather drop in favor of more $$$.

Still a lot better than the company I work for that drops benefits and doesn't even provide CoL increases.

The story I read yesterday said that Amazon was canceling some scheduled bonuses. Raises are better than bonuses (because salary is not as arbitrary, and forms the basis for a lot of benefit calculations), so if that's where most of the money is coming from it seems fine to me. If they're also cutting other bennies, I might have a problem with that.

There's mention of stock grants being eliminated as well. Apparently for employees already making over $15, elimination of bonuses and stock grants leaves them at a loss.

Jeff V wrote: ↑Thu Oct 04, 2018 1:04 pm There's mention of stock grants being eliminated as well. Apparently for employees already making over $15, elimination of bonuses and stock grants leaves them at a loss.

Is that true or is this true?

In another change, Amazon will phase out its Restricted Stock Unit program for order fulfillment and customer service employees who are paid hourly. Those workers currently receive shares of stock if they meet certain conditions. But the company says the employees have said, "They prefer the predictability and immediacy of cash to RSUs."

If I prefer cash to incentives and am having cash replace incentives. Then there it is. Without seeing the plan, it's meaningless to me. I don't think I'd trust a general press release short on specifics or a sample of employee bitching. I don't find either to be reliable.

Not sure, but knowing some of the people who jumped from our warehouse to Amazon, I can guarantee you that to them, cash for an extra pack of smokes per week > stock grants that might be worth six figures in a decade.

"An in-depth look at New York's car wash industry, and the real world consequences of politicians interfering with a complex industry they don’t understand."

Nothing says complex like washing cars.

Moliere wrote: ↑Sat Oct 13, 2018 10:05 am "An in-depth look at New York's car wash industry, and the real world consequences of politicians interfering with a complex industry they don’t understand."

I only made it about 8 minutes before I got annoyed. But I have a question on stuff like this (that I didn't see answered in the first 8 minutes). What were they paying these people before the $15/hr minimum wage? How many employees are there on staff at a time? How much does it cost to go to full automation?

Just so that I'm clear up front, I don't care at all that a business chooses to automate if that's the right financial decision, and I''m not particularly motivated to let them pay what amounts to slave wages to their employees to avoid it. Ultimately, these sorts of jobs are going to be automated away. That just seems like the reality of it.

But let's say they a place is open 10 hours a day, and at any given time they've got 8 employees making $7.50 an hour (all guesses). That's wages of $600 per day. Forcing them to a minimum wage of $15 would double those wages. So we are talking $600 per day. How much does it cost in capital equipment to automate a car wash? A basic search says that it costs about $40,000 per bay. All other things being equal (for the moment, let's ignore ongoing costs of operation and maintenance).

Using those rough numbers - if I get rid of four of my employees (thus returning me to my original wages), the capital cost of the automated equipment can be recouped in a matter of 2 or 3 months?

My point is that it would seem (to me) that this path is (or should be) *inevitable*. If it's ultimately cheaper to operate, and a superior experience for the customer - why on earth would we prevent this by subsidizing the car wash industry with such incredibly cheap labor?

The only argument that I'm aware of for that is that slave wages are better than no wages. And while that's not utterly without merit - it does seem like that's also a system destined for trouble, it's just a matter of whether we can stave it off long enough so that we don't personally have to deal with the consequences.

RunningMn9 wrote: ↑Sat Oct 13, 2018 11:39 am The only argument that I'm aware of for that is that slave wages are better than no wages. And while that's not utterly without merit - it does seem like that's also a system destined for trouble, it's just a matter of whether we can stave it off long enough so that we don't personally have to deal with the consequences.

Yeah, if our society depends on preserving jobs that can be done more efficiently by machines, that's a problem with how society works. Are unskilled, low-paying jobs preferable to welfare? Probably, given the way welfare is structured and stigmatized. The assumption that we should all have to sing for our supper runs deep. But if those jobs don't pay a living wage, should we care when they go away?

IDK. It's more complicated than work being good for building character, or welfare being bad because lazy shiftless bums. Maybe we need a third option that isn't work or welfare. Preserving low-wage jobs because there aren't any better options implies that we need better options. Maybe that's workfare, or maybe it's a guaranteed minimum income, or maybe it's something that nobody's thought of yet. Pretty sure that more slave-wage jobs is not the answer, though.

I have some sympathy for formerly viable jobs losing viability, but not much.

Is there historical data around the concern that the number of secretary jobs were significantly reduced, or that typing pools were completely wiped out? Those jobs were *FAR* more prevalent than washing cars, and far more important to society and business functioning, and yet those jobs were replaced by technology and changes in workload.

It's not like there aren't millions of examples of jobs becoming obsolete or automated that we can draw wisdom from.

I'd ask what other jobs have we preserved from automation/obsolescence simply because they exist and people were employed doing them? If there are none, then I think we have our answer. If there are some, we should probably look more closely at why those particular jobs were saved and see if they apply to washing cars.

And can I just say that I find the idea that the minimum wage should not be raised for everyone because people who wash cars will no longer be employed to wash cars, is completely asinine?

a) Washing cars is honest work, so that's good.
b) washing cars is about as least useful a job as I can imagine. Fast food cashiers are more valuable, and those are on their way out too, and not just due to minimum wage increases.


What's next? No cost of living increases to minimum wage because dog walkers exist?

Not every job has to pay a living wage. I don't expect paper boys (if they existed) or babysitters to meet minimum wage standards, but jobs like those were already exempt from many labour laws. You can't employ an 8 year old in your coal mine any longer, but lots of 8 year olds delivered news papers, for example.

BT

Switchboard operator
Bowling alley pinsetter
Lift operator
Film projectionist
Knocker-upper (human alarm clock -Isg)
Bridge toll collector
Check-out cashier
Railway station ticket seller
Factory worker

And yet no robots have replaced secretaries.

Sad.

GreenGoo wrote: ↑Sat Oct 13, 2018 2:20 pm
I don't expect paper boys (if they existed) or babysitters to meet minimum wage standards

Where the hell can you find a babysitter for minimum wage (or less? )

Jeff V wrote: ↑Wed Oct 17, 2018 2:56 pm

GreenGoo wrote: ↑Sat Oct 13, 2018 2:20 pm
I don't expect paper boys (if they existed) or babysitters to meet minimum wage standards

Where the hell can you find a [reliable and trustworthy] babysitter for minimum wage (or less? )

FTFY

Moliere wrote: ↑Thu Oct 18, 2018 9:54 am

Jeff V wrote: ↑Wed Oct 17, 2018 2:56 pm

GreenGoo wrote: ↑Sat Oct 13, 2018 2:20 pm
I don't expect paper boys (if they existed) or babysitters to meet minimum wage standards

Where the hell can you find a [reliable and trustworthy] babysitter for minimum wage (or less? )

FTFY

I find it helps if they are related to the baby.

coopasonic wrote: ↑Thu Oct 18, 2018 9:56 am I find it helps if they are related to the baby.

Oh we have one of those!

Airfare to fly in MiL for 6 months: $1500
Food/Clothing expense: $800 /month ($4800/6 mo)
Allowance: $400/mo ($2400 /6 mo)
Phone: $50 /mo ($300 /6 mo)

Total: $9000
Approx. hours baby sitting per week: 24
Hourly rate: $14.42

Mind you, she mostly only cares for our daughter. Our son has all-day preschool 3 days per week ($170 per week/$4420 for 6 months) and only a couple of times have my wife and I gone out and left her with both of the kids to deal with.

Food/Clothing expense: $800 /month ($4800/6 mo)

WTH??? I'd be onboard with providing a food allowance (though significantly less than that). But clothing should come out of the personal allowance. Unless the kids are destroying her clothes, then I could see clothing as part of the "job".

Yeah, my MiL lives 1.5 miles away and generally brings her own food and clothes. Hell, sometimes she brings food for the kids.

TheMix wrote: ↑Fri Oct 19, 2018 9:28 am

Food/Clothing expense: $800 /month ($4800/6 mo)

WTH??? I'd be onboard with providing a food allowance (though significantly less than that). But clothing should come out of the personal allowance. Unless the kids are destroying her clothes, then I could see clothing as part of the "job".

Take her mom shopping appears to be my wife's favorite hobby. She literally came here with NO baggage this time. Hopefully winter won't arrive too early and she won't need another wardrobe before she goes back Nov 30. As for food, much of what she and my wife eat I don't, and vice-versa. That greatly increases the food bill. She'll spend about $150 per week at the local(-ish) Filipino store and another $350 on a monthly trip to the big-assed Filipino supermarket on the north side. And that's just for the uncommon food; they go through a lot of staple items such as eggs.

The $400 she gives her mom in cash typically gets sent straight back to the Philippines. I look forward to the day when her sister is here instead, paying her own way working. Of course, the day that becomes profitable, she'll get knocked up and move out.

in the past two months in Seattle, 14 restaurants have closed and 60 have opened

yeah, we super hate jobs here

NJ

Amazon on Thursday said it would be canceling its plans to build a corporate campus in New York City.

The impact of New York's minimum wage increase in border counties.

An analysis of the data by The New York Times, paired with on-the-ground reporting, generally supports the Fed’s findings. Wages shot up in New York State’s southern counties, especially for low-earning workers, compared with 2012 — just before wage floor increases were announced. While the adjustment to higher labor costs has not been painless, the pay increases did not consistently come alongside weaker hiring relative to Pennsylvania’s trend.
***
The fact that job losses are not rampant does not mean that a higher wage floor is painless. Evidence suggests that businesses cover higher labor costs in one of three ways, Mr. Dube said: taking a hit to profits, improving productivity or raising prices.
***
As Haff Acres demonstrates, businesses without much pricing power could be forced out of business as labor costs increase, which can lead to industry concentration. The number of fast-food restaurants north of the state line has declined since 2012, even as the number of people employed increased, suggesting that the industry might be consolidating — perhaps because larger restaurants or chains can more easily pay higher wages.

USA Today

The number of cities and counties with at least a $15 pay floor is set to double next year to 32, as Washington, D.C., Los Angeles and South San Francisco, along with about a dozen other California cities, adopt the benchmark, according to a report by the National Employment Law Project provided exclusively to USA TODAY. They’ll join cities such as New York, Seattle and San Francisco that are already members of the $15 club.

More broadly, 24 states and 48 cities and counties will raise their minimum wages in 2020 – a record 72 jurisdictions, the worker advocacy group’s study says. Most will occur on or about Jan. 1.
...
New Mexico’s wage base will rise from $7.50 to $9 and Illinois’ from $8.25 to $9.25 as both states raise their thresholds for the first time in a decade. Missouri is raising its minimum from $8.60 to $9.45 in a second step toward reaching $12 by 2023.
...
Later in 2020, another three states – Connecticut, Nevada and Oregon – and 22 localities will raise their minimum wages, the NELP report shows.

But the most striking development is the growth in the number of jurisdictions headed to a $15 pay floor. A couple of years ago, it was just California and New York. Now, Illinois, Maryland, Massachusetts, New Jersey and Connecticut are also on their way to $15. Nearly a third of the U.S. workforce lives in states climbing to $15 over the next few years, says David Cooper, senior economic analyst for the left-leaning Economic Policy Institute.

Yup, MA goes to $12.75 next week, en route to $15. The de facto minimum in greater Boston is at least $15 already.

NPR

A new study suggests that raising the minimum wage might lower the suicide rate — especially when unemployment is high — and that doing so might have saved tens of thousands of people from dying by suicide in the last quarter century.

The minimum federal minimum wage is $7.25, though many states have set it higher. Between 1990 and 2015, raising the minimum wage by $1 in each state might have saved more than 27,000 lives, according to a report published this week in the Journal of Epidemiology & Community Health. An increase of $2 in each state's minimum wage could have prevented more than 57,000 suicides.
...
Crucially, researchers found that raising the minimum wage appears to reduce the suicide rate more when it's harder to find a job. In bad times, the same $1 increase could save more people than it might during good times.
...
The researchers found that 26,000 deaths could have been prevented following the 2009 peak in unemployment during the last recession had the minimum wage been $2 higher.

This cant be true. Didnt all the jobs vanish and restaurants close?

malchior wrote: ↑Thu Jan 30, 2020 3:31 pm This cant be true. Didnt all the jobs vanish and restaurants close?

Yeah, but if the people flee as well...

malchior wrote:This cant be true. Didnt all the jobs vanish and restaurants close?

I have seen prices on food go up because of the hikes in NJ. I'm a bit scared where we will be at when it finally gets to 15. A dollar a year hikes is pretty rough for a small business to absorb.

Isgrimnur wrote: ↑Wed Jan 15, 2020 4:57 pm NPR

The researchers found that 26,000 deaths could have been prevented following the 2009 peak in unemployment during the last recession had the minimum wage been $2 higher.

Maybe the numbers would be offset by suicides or heart attacks of business owners.

em2nought wrote: ↑Thu Jan 30, 2020 4:05 pm

Isgrimnur wrote: ↑Wed Jan 15, 2020 4:57 pm NPR

The researchers found that 26,000 deaths could have been prevented following the 2009 peak in unemployment during the last recession had the minimum wage been $2 higher.

Maybe the numbers would be offset by suicides or heart attacks of business owners.

Actually increases in minimum wage correlate to reduced suicides but dont let that get in the way of crude meanness.

CNBC

In May, McDonald’s, just months after other fractious disputes with franchisees over tuition programs and technology fee payments, announced that workers at McDonald’s 650 company-owned locations will see pay raises of an average of 10% by the end of June — entry-level employees will make $11 to $17 per hour, and shift managers will make $15 to $20 an hour, based on location. The company says that means the average wage for employees at company-owned restaurants will be $15 per hour by 2024.

While the wage increases only take effect at the locations that McDonald’s corporation owns and operates, the company encouraged franchisees that manage the 13,000 or so other restaurants to do the same for their roughly 800,000 employees, provoking anger and consternation among some franchise owners. The fast-food giant franchises 95% of its U.S. restaurants.

The government in Seattle has now actually driven people to imbibe. Good for beer sales, not so much for soda sales.
https://fee.org/articles/seattle-s-nann ... udy-shows/