Tabletop Randomness

All discussions regarding Board, Card, and RPG Gaming, including industry discussion, that don't belong in one of the other gaming forums.

Moderators: The Preacher, $iljanus, Zaxxon

Post Reply
User avatar
Smoove_B
Posts: 54567
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 12:58 am
Location: Kaer Morhen

Re: Tabletop Randomness

Post by Smoove_B »

I agree with everything Blackhawk said. There seems to be a...choice that WotC has made with the big book adventures. Namely for many (most? all?) of them, there's really no campaign. Details and set locations are provided with lots and lots of story options but as a DM its up to you to thread the needle and figure out how it all works. I tried running Strahd last year; it just about broke me mentally. Way too open and far too much preparation. I'm sure a younger me might have been better, but old man Smoove just isn't that nimble anymore. The actual book was fun to read but trying to structure a campaign adventure using it all as framework? Too much.

I think so far the best adventure we did was the Forge of Fury in Tales from the Yawning Portal. It was a classic dungeon crawl that I had connected to the Lost Mine of Phandelver. I think I would have been better off then picking another adventure in that book to connect the Forge to.

I haven't played or read Waterdeep Dragon Heist, but it is apparently better (tighter but relatively short story). That said, it's not a "classic" D&D adventure because you're running around Waterdeep and not really doing "dungeon" things. However, it does set up the next campaign ("Dungeons of the Mad Mage") which is in the Underdark and more of a classic dungeon crawl.
Maybe next year, maybe no go
User avatar
Skinypupy
Posts: 20333
Joined: Tue Dec 07, 2004 10:12 am
Location: Utah

Re: Tabletop Randomness

Post by Skinypupy »

Thanks for the input, much appreciated. I think Yawning Portal might be a good one, as this group seems to have a pretty short attention span. A series of shorter adventures might actually be a really good option for them.
When darkness veils the world, four Warriors of Light shall come.
User avatar
Blackhawk
Posts: 43493
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 9:48 pm
Location: Southwest Indiana

Re: Tabletop Randomness

Post by Blackhawk »

Skinypupy wrote: Tue Dec 06, 2022 12:26 pm Thanks for the input, much appreciated. I think Yawning Portal might be a good one, as this group seems to have a pretty short attention span. A series of shorter adventures might actually be a really good option for them.
It really is a good set of adventures. I strongly recommend also buying her Power Score's guide. He does them for most of the D&D adventures, and they are invaluable for running them, especially for new GMs. They have tips, important elements from each adventure and location, warnings of things to watch out for, stuff like ("If you players don't talk to the NPC, you'll need to be ready to get them this info a different way. A letter found on a body in area 12 is a good option.") He also offers ways to improve them, and in this case, a way to connect the individual adventures together as a campaign if she wants to.

I haven't read this one, but I've used his guides for other adventures, and they were always incredibly useful (especially Storm King's Thunder.) For $3, it's a steal. It's only a .pdf, but if she prefers physical, you could always print it.
(˙pǝsɹǝʌǝɹ uǝǝq sɐɥ ʎʇıʌɐɹƃ ʃɐuosɹǝd ʎW)
User avatar
Redfive
Posts: 1905
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 11:12 am
Location: Back in Texas

Re: Tabletop Randomness

Post by Redfive »

Skinypupy wrote: Tue Dec 06, 2022 12:26 pm Thanks for the input, much appreciated. I think Yawning Portal might be a good one, as this group seems to have a pretty short attention span. A series of shorter adventures might actually be a really good option for them.
If you haven't already made the decision / purchase I'd offer another viewpoint. TFtYP does have several adventures that are completely unrelated and roughly follow a linear level curve, but some of them are pretty 'out there' setting wise and at least one of them is just plain lethal to players.

Spoilering a synopsis of the modules I have run from it:
Spoiler:
- Sunless Citadel is a pretty good starter adventure for new PCs. Fairly classic setting and some fun dungeons.
- Forge of Fury is a very solid module, also 'classic' dungeon setting. I did this one after Lost Mines of Phandelver and the transition went very well
- I can't speak to Against the Giants as this is the one module I have not run. It, like all of these, is a repackage of a classic. I've heard good things though.
- Hidden Shrine of Tamoachan another pretty good dungeon with a Meso American setting. A repackage of one of the earlier D&D modules.
- White Plume Mountain is a repackage of one of the earliest of modules IIRC and has the 'out there' setting I referenced. Heavy on puzzles. I wound up running this one as a one-shot with alternate characters as I couldn't make it fit into my homebrew campaign
- Dead in Thay is good, but an absolute unit of a dungeon. Easily the biggest I've ever run. So big in fact, that I have run different parts of it in two different campaigns, barely overlapped between the two, and still had a large part we never got to. This one requires a fair bit of DM prep and it is quite literally one room after another of fights (mostly)
- Tomb of Horrors is what you run when you just want to kill a PC or 3. Also a repackage of an early module, it is absolutely deadly for players. It has been a couple of years but I recall instances of puzzles or traps where players either succeed or just die. More than one actually.
You might look at Candlekeep Mysteries. I don't have any experience with it but I hear it is good for short(ish) adventures that supposedly fit into campaigns fairly easily.

EDIT: This is not to say the Tales is not good, it certainly is. I was just thinking of how well it would fit into your criteria.
Battle.net: red51ve#1673
Elder Scrolls Online - @redfive
User avatar
Skinypupy
Posts: 20333
Joined: Tue Dec 07, 2004 10:12 am
Location: Utah

Re: Tabletop Randomness

Post by Skinypupy »

Redfive wrote: Sun Dec 11, 2022 1:02 am You might look at Candlekeep Mysteries.
One of the Wonder Twins 9.6 asked for a campaign book as well. He won’t be running any campaigns yet, but he loves reading through the books. I picked up Candlekeep Mysteries for him, so we’ll have both floating around the house.
When darkness veils the world, four Warriors of Light shall come.
User avatar
Smoove_B
Posts: 54567
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 12:58 am
Location: Kaer Morhen

Re: Tabletop Randomness

Post by Smoove_B »

Potentially bad news for OGL (open game license) publishers using D&D



If you'd rather read about it, check here:
Despite reassurances from Wizards of the Coast last month, the original OGL will become an “unauthorized” agreement, and it appears no new content will be permitted to be created under the original license.
More:
One of the biggest changes to the document is that it updates the previously available OGL 1.0 to state it is “no longer an authorized license agreement.” By ending the original OGL, many licensed publishers will have to completely overhaul their products and distribution in order to comply with the updated rules. Large publishers who focus almost exclusively on products based on the original OGL, including Paizo, Kobold Press, and Green Ronin, will be under pressure to update their business model incredibly fast.

This is no mistake. According to the document procured by io9, the new agreements states that “the Open Game License was always intended to allow the community to help grow D&D and expand it creatively. It wasn’t intended to subsidize major competitors, especially now that PDF is by far the most common form of distribution.”

This sentiment is reiterated later in the document: The “OGL wasn’t intended to fund major competitors and it wasn’t intended to allow people to make D&D apps, videos, or anything other than printed (or printable) materials for use while gaming. We are updating the OGL in part to make that very clear.”
Maybe next year, maybe no go
User avatar
Blackhawk
Posts: 43493
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 9:48 pm
Location: Southwest Indiana

Re: Tabletop Randomness

Post by Blackhawk »

WotC (or, rather, Hasbro) has been getting steadily more consumer hostile and greedy of late. They're starting to feel a little like Games Workshop (or Asmodee, or Ubisoft, depending on your hobby.) Between their approach to digital content (no pdfs, subscription based options only with multiple purchases required), the way they run the DM's guild (the 'official' third party publisher where they take a massive cut from authors), their handling of Magic: The Gathering lately, the clumsy way they've been handling D&D lore, and now this?

I think they're missing something important. They're not the only player in town. They are the biggest (are they still?), but not the only. And they are in a hobby that runs on one engine: the community. And they're treating the community like crap, something that the community has noticed. Some of the those affected (the article specifically mentioned Kobold Press and Green Ronin) are well established and well loved by the community. And the community tends to trend toward younger, more modern consumers who have already had enough with corporate jackboots. This is going to piss them off. And the thing about RPGs - unlike video games where people play a new one every few weeks, most people have a 'core' tabletop RPG that they stick with for years. Drive them away from D&D, and they will find a new one - and may not come back.

D&D is riding on a high that came from a perfect storm. Stranger Things got people curious, Critical Role got people hooked, and the pandemic got people bored. Those things are already fading into the past. Unless the D&D movie blows people out of the water, they're going to find that they're losing more customers than they're gaining.

The last time WotC tried to cash in and blew off their community resulted in the creation of Pathfinder, and resulted in the first time in their history that they were the #2 publisher of tabletop RPGs.
(˙pǝsɹǝʌǝɹ uǝǝq sɐɥ ʎʇıʌɐɹƃ ʃɐuosɹǝd ʎW)
User avatar
RMC
Posts: 6739
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 1:49 pm
Location: Elyria, Ohio
Contact:

Re: Tabletop Randomness

Post by RMC »

Blackhawk wrote: Thu Jan 05, 2023 3:14 pm The last time WotC tried to cash in and blew off their community resulted in the creation of Pathfinder, and resulted in the first time in their history that they were the #2 publisher of tabletop RPGs.
That was when I switched to Pathfinder, and I have not purchased a single book for D&D since, have not played it since then either. Still have a Pathfinder group that meets a few times a year and plays.
Difficulties mastered are opportunities won. - Winston Churchill
Sheesh, this is one small box. Thankfully, everything's packed in nicely this time. Not too tight nor too loose (someone's sig in 3, 2, ...). - Hepcat
User avatar
Blackhawk
Posts: 43493
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 9:48 pm
Location: Southwest Indiana

Re: Tabletop Randomness

Post by Blackhawk »

After some quick reading, the new OGL would also include things like charging anyone who makes a significant profit as much as 25% of said profits, WotC can claim ownership of any products made, and they're limited only to printed and pdf documents. That means that if Paizo (for instance) were to publish Pathfinder 2.5e based on it, they would not be allowed to make it available on any virtual tabletop, make any accessories based on it, or make a video game based on it. Video game companies themselves are out of luck (Solasta 2 is going to have write new rules.)

The complicated part is how retroactive this is. Apparently they can't retroactively apply this to Pathfinder 2e (for instance), one of their biggest competitors, but does that mean that Paizo can continue to publish new content for 2e on the old license? Or would they have to accept the new version?

FWIW, the biggest effect this is going to have (other than WotC getting smacked down) is that all of the other games will simply change a few rules in their next version to exclude WotC copyrights, and I think people are going to be surprised at just how many of the rules are not covered under copyright.
(˙pǝsɹǝʌǝɹ uǝǝq sɐɥ ʎʇıʌɐɹƃ ʃɐuosɹǝd ʎW)
User avatar
Blackhawk
Posts: 43493
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 9:48 pm
Location: Southwest Indiana

Re: Tabletop Randomness

Post by Blackhawk »

Prediction (stolen from someone else): This will result, within two or three years, in D&D and/or WotC being sold. Asmodee is a possibility.
(˙pǝsɹǝʌǝɹ uǝǝq sɐɥ ʎʇıʌɐɹƃ ʃɐuosɹǝd ʎW)
User avatar
Smoove_B
Posts: 54567
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 12:58 am
Location: Kaer Morhen

Re: Tabletop Randomness

Post by Smoove_B »

I think it tracks. The underlying theme I keep seeing is their apparently realization of how much money they've been missing out on. Whether it's through physical media, licensing fees, electronic TTS stuff and/or micro transactions for players. It's like they had a consulting firm come in and give them examples of how they're not maximizing their brand.

I don't pretend to understand how the OGL stuff will be impacted or how it might change online gaming at places like Roll 20 or Fantasy Grounds. People will always have their old books and printed materials, so from a practical standpoint it might change how things look at conventions more than anything.

Interesting times, that's for sure.
Maybe next year, maybe no go
Zenn7
Posts: 4447
Joined: Wed Dec 22, 2004 10:15 pm
Location: Michigan

Re: Tabletop Randomness

Post by Zenn7 »

Blackhawk wrote: Thu Jan 05, 2023 3:48 pm Video game companies themselves are out of luck (Solasta 2 is going to have write new rules.)
This will suck in the extreme as I love Solasta 2 and how accurate/close it is to the books. :(
User avatar
Smoove_B
Posts: 54567
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 12:58 am
Location: Kaer Morhen

Re: Tabletop Randomness

Post by Smoove_B »

Blackhawk wrote: Thu Jan 05, 2023 3:48 pm FWIW, the biggest effect this is going to have (other than WotC getting smacked down) is that all of the other games will simply change a few rules in their next version to exclude WotC copyrights, and I think people are going to be surprised at just how many of the rules are not covered under copyright.
There's an indie publisher / developer on DriveThru (Fat Goblin) that just published a F- WotC sale. It's like $1,300 worth of digital OGL materials that they're now selling for $65.
Maybe next year, maybe no go
User avatar
Isgrimnur
Posts: 82085
Joined: Sun Oct 15, 2006 12:29 am
Location: Chookity pok
Contact:

Re: Tabletop Randomness

Post by Isgrimnur »

Smoove_B wrote: Sun Jan 08, 2023 7:58 pm
Blackhawk wrote: Thu Jan 05, 2023 3:48 pm FWIW, the biggest effect this is going to have (other than WotC getting smacked down) is that all of the other games will simply change a few rules in their next version to exclude WotC copyrights, and I think people are going to be surprised at just how many of the rules are not covered under copyright.
There's an indie publisher / developer on DriveThru (Fat Goblin) that just published a F- WotC sale. It's like $1,300 worth of digital OGL materials that they're now selling for $65.
It's almost as if people are the problem.
User avatar
Smoove_B
Posts: 54567
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 12:58 am
Location: Kaer Morhen

Re: Tabletop Randomness

Post by Smoove_B »

Image
Maybe next year, maybe no go
User avatar
Smoove_B
Posts: 54567
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 12:58 am
Location: Kaer Morhen

Re: Tabletop Randomness

Post by Smoove_B »

FYI they were asked to take the bundle down by DriveThru so if it's something you're into, you probably only have a short bit to grab it...
Maybe next year, maybe no go
User avatar
Smoove_B
Posts: 54567
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 12:58 am
Location: Kaer Morhen

Re: Tabletop Randomness

Post by Smoove_B »

I'm still fascinated by what's about to happen (potentially) tomorrow with the OGL changes and have been reading/listening to all kinds of opinion pieces on what to expect.

I stumbled across this 2+ hour video last night:



And have been listening while doing other things and it's quite fascinating mainly because of the history of the OGL (which I had no idea about - and it's connection to software, especially in the late 1990s) and the fact that they're interviewing one of the people that helped codify it.

Anyway, I still don't know exactly what's going to happen, but my unofficial impression is that WotC is about to alienate a significant number of (vocal) players and content creators.

EDIT: To help here, most of the core information that I think everyone cares about is covered in the first ~45 minutes
Maybe next year, maybe no go
User avatar
Zarathud
Posts: 16434
Joined: Fri Oct 15, 2004 10:29 pm
Location: Chicago, Illinois

Re: Tabletop Randomness

Post by Zarathud »

That interview with Ryan Dancey does a great job explaining Hasbro's risk with the OGL. It provides clarity that avoids disputes over non-copyrightable "game rules" and claiming D&D "compatibility." Risks that would force Hasbro to spend on legal fees, and potentially lose everything if anyone ever defeats them. Ryan makes a good business case for the risks and limited upside, particularly on the risk of summary judgment that under contract law OGL version 1.0a can't be revoked. Or, even worse, if a judge looks at the merits and decides the use isn't copyrightable.
"If the facts don't fit the theory, change the facts." - Albert Einstein
"I don't stand by anything." - Trump
“Bad men need nothing more to compass their ends, than that good men should look on and do nothing.” - John Stuart Mill, Inaugural Address Delivered to the University of St Andrews, 2/1/1867
“It is the impractical things in this tumultuous hell-scape of a world that matter most. A book, a name, chicken soup. They help us remember that, even in our darkest hour, life is still to be savored.” - Poe, Altered Carbon
User avatar
Isgrimnur
Posts: 82085
Joined: Sun Oct 15, 2006 12:29 am
Location: Chookity pok
Contact:

Re: Tabletop Randomness

Post by Isgrimnur »

It's almost as if people are the problem.
User avatar
Smoove_B
Posts: 54567
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 12:58 am
Location: Kaer Morhen

Re: Tabletop Randomness

Post by Smoove_B »

The student has become the master:
We believe, as we always have, that open gaming makes games better, improves profitability for all involved, and enriches the community of gamers who participate in this amazing hobby. And so we invite gamers from around the world to join us as we begin the next great chapter of open gaming with the release of a new open, perpetual, and irrevocable Open RPG Creative License (ORC).

The new Open RPG Creative License will be built system agnostic for independent game publishers under the legal guidance of Azora Law, an intellectual property law firm that represents Paizo and several other game publishers. Paizo will pay for this legal work. We invite game publishers worldwide to join us in support of this system-agnostic license that allows all games to provide their own unique open rules reference documents that open up their individual game systems to the world. To join the effort and provide feedback on the drafts of this license, please sign up by using this form.

In addition to Paizo, Kobold Press, Chaosium, Legendary Games, and a growing list of publishers have already agreed to participate in the Open RPG Creative License, and in the coming days we hope and expect to add substantially to this group.

The ORC will not be owned by Paizo, nor will it be owned by any company who makes money publishing RPGs. Azora Law’s ownership of the process and stewardship should provide a safe harbor against any company being bought, sold, or changing management in the future and attempting to rescind rights or nullify sections of the license. Ultimately, we plan to find a nonprofit with a history of open source values to own this license (such as the Linux Foundation). 

Of course, Paizo plans to continue publishing Pathfinder and Starfinder, even as we move away from the Open Gaming License. Since months’ worth of products are still at the printer, you’ll see the familiar OGL 1.0(a) in the back of our products for a while yet. While the Open RPG Creative License is being finalized, we’ll be printing Pathfinder and Starfinder products without any license, and we’ll add the finished license to those products when the new license is complete. 
Maybe next year, maybe no go
User avatar
YellowKing
Posts: 30126
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 2:02 pm

Re: Tabletop Randomness

Post by YellowKing »

I bought the big storage box for FInal Girl after Van Ryder put another limited run up for sale (I missed out on it the last time). While I HATE HATE HATE paying for empty box storage solutions, I equally hate that my Final Girl stuff is currently sitting all over the place. As much as I complain, every big storage solution I've bought for other game I absolutely love.
User avatar
Blackhawk
Posts: 43493
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 9:48 pm
Location: Southwest Indiana

Re: Tabletop Randomness

Post by Blackhawk »

So, essentially Paizo is making a GNU/GPL/Creative Commons license
Smoove_B wrote: Fri Jan 13, 2023 1:04 pm The student has become the master:
The student was the master a long, long time ago. Paizo was founded by people who were already masters - Lisa Stevens, who was VP of Wizards of the Coast when Magic: The Gathering was launched, Vic Wertz, and Johnny Wilson (who had just recently left as Editor-in-Chief of Computer Gaming World.) Paizo ran both Dungeon and Dragon magazines for Wizards of the Coast, and was responsible for some great modules originally published for 5e. In fact, their first few 'Adventure Path' series (something they've become famous for) were originally published in Dungeon magazine for D&D. When D&D tossed their contract for Dungeon and Dragon magazines, Paizo took the idea and ran with it. Their first few 'Paizo' Adventure Paths, including Rise of the Runelords, were originally published independently specifically for D&D, years before Pathfinder was even a thing, and made a killing. When Wizards then began showing previews of D&D 4e, Paizo (like most other people) hated it In addition, WotC (again... previously?) announced that it would would be releasing it under a much more restrictive OGL. Paizo didn't want to work in either ecosystem (the rules of the new OGL) and decided to take 3.5e D&D, fix the problems with it, and republish it under the original OGL as the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game. It was so much more popular than D&D 4e that D&D lost first place for the first time in the history of the hobby (and to a brand-new, unproven, zero-IP product that nobody had ever heard of.)

tl;dr - Paizo has been taking Wizards of the Coast to school for the last 20 of the 25 years Wizards has owned D&D. The only things that have kept D&D as popular as it is (especially in the face of Pathfinder 2e, which I found to be a better set of rules) is that popular media from third parties (Stranger Things, Critical Role) has been giving them massive amounts of free advertising.


Side note - I just discovered that Paizo recently announced that they were going to start converting their hugely popular Adventure Path series for D&D 5e. The first are due to come out this summer. Their adventures have (almost) always been better than the published 5e stuff, and Hasbro relies on their often-mediocre offerings as a source of revenue. I wonder if this is what sent Hasbro into a tailspin?
(˙pǝsɹǝʌǝɹ uǝǝq sɐɥ ʎʇıʌɐɹƃ ʃɐuosɹǝd ʎW)
User avatar
hepcat
Posts: 51302
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 3:02 pm
Location: Chicago, IL Home of the triple homicide!

Re: Tabletop Randomness

Post by hepcat »

YellowKing wrote: Fri Jan 13, 2023 1:26 pm I bought the big storage box for FInal Girl after Van Ryder put another limited run up for sale (I missed out on it the last time). While I HATE HATE HATE paying for empty box storage solutions, I equally hate that my Final Girl stuff is currently sitting all over the place. As much as I complain, every big storage solution I've bought for other game I absolutely love.
I'm with you 100 percent. But I do love that our hobby has created a niche market for empty boxes.
Covfefe!
User avatar
Smoove_B
Posts: 54567
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 12:58 am
Location: Kaer Morhen

Re: Tabletop Randomness

Post by Smoove_B »

I more or less disappeared from traditional PnP RPGs between the early 1990s and ~2020 so my ability to add a lot to the discussion is limited. I understand what Paizo did (broadly) with their creation of the original Pathfinder (and why/how they did it) and have been loosely catching up to all the OGL "stuff" and what it spawned. To be clear, I've been doing lot of reading (rules, systems) for RPGs over the last 20+ years, but actually playing them? That didn't happen again until the pandemic and even then only though a VTT.

I understand that Pathfinder has been eating the lunch of D&D for quite some time with respect to content, but from a legal standpoint this seems like a killing blow.

Of course I don't know any of the numbers (in terms of popularity) but as part of that 2+ hour interview yesterday, the point was repeatedly made that if 5E (or whatever is coming next) was a quality product people *would* embrace the OGL 1.1 to gain access to whatever new, innovative thing WotC created. But so far, there's no indication that would be happening and it's instead a way to monetize the brand by trying to revoke the ability to use 1.0 in any capacity.

So yeah, the fact that Paizo is now embracing the idea from a legal standpoint and giving publishers the option to continue to do their thing under and official OGL ORC, I do think it's come full circle.
Maybe next year, maybe no go
User avatar
Zarathud
Posts: 16434
Joined: Fri Oct 15, 2004 10:29 pm
Location: Chicago, Illinois

Re: Tabletop Randomness

Post by Zarathud »

I love that the ORC is about to slay the OGL.
"If the facts don't fit the theory, change the facts." - Albert Einstein
"I don't stand by anything." - Trump
“Bad men need nothing more to compass their ends, than that good men should look on and do nothing.” - John Stuart Mill, Inaugural Address Delivered to the University of St Andrews, 2/1/1867
“It is the impractical things in this tumultuous hell-scape of a world that matter most. A book, a name, chicken soup. They help us remember that, even in our darkest hour, life is still to be savored.” - Poe, Altered Carbon
User avatar
Skinypupy
Posts: 20333
Joined: Tue Dec 07, 2004 10:12 am
Location: Utah

Re: Tabletop Randomness

Post by Skinypupy »

WotC is now sprinting backwards
When we initially conceived of revising the OGL, it was with three major goals in mind. First, we wanted the ability to prevent the use of D&D content from being included in hateful and discriminatory products. Second, we wanted to address those attempting to use D&D in web3, blockchain games, and NFTs by making clear that OGL content is limited to tabletop roleplaying content like campaigns, modules, and supplements. And third, we wanted to ensure that the OGL is for the content creator, the homebrewer, the aspiring designer, our players, and the community—not major corporations to use for their own commercial and promotional purpose.

Driving these goals were two simple principles: (1) Our job is to be good stewards of the game, and (2) the OGL exists for the benefit of the fans. Nothing about those principles has wavered for a second.

That was why our early drafts of the new OGL included the provisions they did. That draft language was provided to content creators and publishers so their feedback could be considered before anything was finalized. In addition to language allowing us to address discriminatory and hateful conduct and clarifying what types of products the OGL covers, our drafts included royalty language designed to apply to large corporations attempting to use OGL content. It was never our intent to impact the vast majority of the community.

However, it’s clear from the reaction that we rolled a 1. It has become clear that it is no longer possible to fully achieve all three goals while still staying true to our principles. So, here is what we are doing.

The next OGL will contain the provisions that allow us to protect and cultivate the inclusive environment we are trying to build and specify that it covers only content for TTRPGs. That means that other expressions, such as educational and charitable campaigns, livestreams, cosplay, VTT-uses, etc., will remain unaffected by any OGL update. Content already released under 1.0a will also remain unaffected.

What it will not contain is any royalty structure. It also will not include the license back provision that some people were afraid was a means for us to steal work. That thought never crossed our minds. Under any new OGL, you will own the content you create. We won’t. Any language we put down will be crystal clear and unequivocal on that point. The license back language was intended to protect us and our partners from creators who incorrectly allege that we steal their work simply because of coincidental similarities. As we continue to invest in the game that we love and move forward with partnerships in film, television, and digital games, that risk is simply too great to ignore. The new OGL will contain provisions to address that risk, but we will do it without a license back and without suggesting we have rights to the content you create. Your ideas and imagination are what makes this game special, and that belongs to you.

A couple of last thoughts. First, we won’t be able to release the new OGL today, because we need to make sure we get it right, but it is coming. Second, you’re going to hear people say that they won, and we lost because making your voices heard forced us to change our plans. Those people will only be half right. They won—and so did we.

Our plan was always to solicit the input of our community before any update to the OGL; the drafts you’ve seen were attempting to do just that. We want to always delight fans and create experiences together that everyone loves. We realize we did not do that this time and we are sorry for that. Our goal was to get exactly the type of feedback on which provisions worked and which did not–which we ultimately got from you. Any change this major could only have been done well if we were willing to take that feedback, no matter how it was provided–so we are. Thank you for caring enough to let us know what works and what doesn’t, what you need and what scares you. Without knowing that, we can’t do our part to make the new OGL match our principles. Finally, we’d appreciate the chance to make this right. We love D&D’s devoted players and the creators who take them on so many incredible adventures. We won’t let you down.
When darkness veils the world, four Warriors of Light shall come.
User avatar
baelthazar
Posts: 4365
Joined: Thu Aug 09, 2007 10:12 am
Location: Indiana

Re: Tabletop Randomness

Post by baelthazar »

A couple of last thoughts. First, we won’t be able to release the new OGL today, because we need to make sure we get it right, but it is coming. Second, you’re going to hear people say that they won, and we lost because making your voices heard forced us to change our plans. Those people will only be half right. They won—and so did we.
This seems like a REALLY shitty way to talk about your consumers. "NO, WE THE BIG CORPORATION ALWAYS WIN. WE CHANGED NOTHING DUE TO YOUR FEEDBACK."
User avatar
RMC
Posts: 6739
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 1:49 pm
Location: Elyria, Ohio
Contact:

Re: Tabletop Randomness

Post by RMC »

baelthazar wrote: Fri Jan 13, 2023 5:27 pm
A couple of last thoughts. First, we won’t be able to release the new OGL today, because we need to make sure we get it right, but it is coming. Second, you’re going to hear people say that they won, and we lost because making your voices heard forced us to change our plans. Those people will only be half right. They won—and so did we.
This seems like a REALLY shitty way to talk about your consumers. "NO, WE THE BIG CORPORATION ALWAYS WIN. WE CHANGED NOTHING DUE TO YOUR FEEDBACK."
Yeah, I thought that was a little tone deaf. But <shrug> wasn't the whole thing then being tone deaf. At least they changed course when they saw the bottom line was going to be impacted.
Difficulties mastered are opportunities won. - Winston Churchill
Sheesh, this is one small box. Thankfully, everything's packed in nicely this time. Not too tight nor too loose (someone's sig in 3, 2, ...). - Hepcat
User avatar
Blackhawk
Posts: 43493
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 9:48 pm
Location: Southwest Indiana

Re: Tabletop Randomness

Post by Blackhawk »

I figured that they would do that once they canceled the announcement yesterday.

Even with the backpedaling, people building their reputations and businesses aren't going to trust them anymore. They mostly just succeeded in encouraging their competition to create a superior option. Again.
(˙pǝsɹǝʌǝɹ uǝǝq sɐɥ ʎʇıʌɐɹƃ ʃɐuosɹǝd ʎW)
User avatar
RMC
Posts: 6739
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 1:49 pm
Location: Elyria, Ohio
Contact:

Re: Tabletop Randomness

Post by RMC »

Blackhawk wrote: Fri Jan 13, 2023 7:56 pm I figured that they would do that once they canceled the announcement yesterday.

Even with the backpedaling, people building their reputations and businesses aren't going to trust them anymore. They mostly just succeeded in encouraging their competition to create a superior option. Again.
Yeah, but I left D&D back in 4th edition, and have not gone back. <shrug> So they were not worried about me anyway.
Difficulties mastered are opportunities won. - Winston Churchill
Sheesh, this is one small box. Thankfully, everything's packed in nicely this time. Not too tight nor too loose (someone's sig in 3, 2, ...). - Hepcat
User avatar
Zarathud
Posts: 16434
Joined: Fri Oct 15, 2004 10:29 pm
Location: Chicago, Illinois

Re: Tabletop Randomness

Post by Zarathud »

You can’t just keep re-rolling your Persuasion check. Hasbro management has failed, full stop. The Genie doesn’t get back into the bottle without a miracle.
"If the facts don't fit the theory, change the facts." - Albert Einstein
"I don't stand by anything." - Trump
“Bad men need nothing more to compass their ends, than that good men should look on and do nothing.” - John Stuart Mill, Inaugural Address Delivered to the University of St Andrews, 2/1/1867
“It is the impractical things in this tumultuous hell-scape of a world that matter most. A book, a name, chicken soup. They help us remember that, even in our darkest hour, life is still to be savored.” - Poe, Altered Carbon
User avatar
Sudy
Posts: 8275
Joined: Sun Nov 21, 2004 3:11 am
Location: Ontario, Canada

Re: Tabletop Randomness

Post by Sudy »

I posted this in EBG but I realized its audience is probably here. If it hasn't been posted already. :lol:


I saw a commercial on late night TV. It said, "Forget everything you know about slipcovers." So I did. And it was a load off my mind. Then the commercial tried to sell me slipcovers, and I didn't know what the hell they were. -- Mitch Hedberg
User avatar
stessier
Posts: 29816
Joined: Tue Dec 21, 2004 12:30 pm
Location: SC

Re: Tabletop Randomness

Post by stessier »

I thought this might be of interest - do most people really need the license?

I require a reminder as to why raining arcane destruction is not an appropriate response to all of life's indignities. - Vaarsuvius
Global Steam Wishmaslist Tracking
Running____2014: 1300.55 miles____2015: 2036.13 miles____2016: 1012.75 miles____2017: 1105.82 miles____2018: 1318.91 miles__2019: 2000.00 miles
User avatar
baelthazar
Posts: 4365
Joined: Thu Aug 09, 2007 10:12 am
Location: Indiana

Re: Tabletop Randomness

Post by baelthazar »

Totally random, but I found out Isaac Childres and I live in the same town and he has played Gloomhaven with several colleagues and friends.
User avatar
Smoove_B
Posts: 54567
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 12:58 am
Location: Kaer Morhen

Re: Tabletop Randomness

Post by Smoove_B »

More on the OGL insanity:
Dungeons & Dragons publisher Wizards of the Coast will abandon attempts to alter the Open Gaming License (OGL). The announcement, made Friday, comes after weeks of virulent anger from fans and third-party publishers caused the story to make international headlines — and on the eve of a high-profile movie starring Chris Pine.
I still don't think people are going back. I've seen more than a few indie RGPs already doing everything they can to strip out anything OGL related for an updated version of their system. Additionally, Paizo is still pushing forward with the ORC:
“We welcome today’s news from Wizards of the Coast regarding their intention not to de-authorize OGL 1.0a,” Paizo said. “We still believe there is a powerful need for an irrevocable, perpetual independent system-neutral open license that will serve the tabletop community via nonprofit stewardship. Work on the ORC license will continue, with an expected first draft to release for comment to participating publishers in February.”
Maybe next year, maybe no go
User avatar
Blackhawk
Posts: 43493
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 9:48 pm
Location: Southwest Indiana

Re: Tabletop Randomness

Post by Blackhawk »

It's too late. Paizo, the publishers of D&D's #1 competitor (and honestly, they have a superior product) once again caught the audience that D&D spit on by actually understanding their community.


Zarathud wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 7:48 pm ...Hasbro’s business goal is to have fewer IP to manage that each bring in $1 billion annually. D&D brings in $150m annually so their goal is to scale up by selling VTT and micro transactions, which is the demented strategy of a former Zynga executive who thinks D&D is just WOW.
Paizo wrote:We were inundated with many weeks' worth of orders. We have brought in additional hands to help with shipping, and are working overtime to send you your new print products as quickly as possible. We apologize for longer than normal ship times as we work through the queue.

Additionally, we have run through what was an 8-month supply of our Pathfinder Core Rulebook in the last 2 weeks, and demand on our Beginner Boxes is surging too. We have already ordered another print run of the hardcover Core Rulebook, which will arrive in mid-April.
They're going to achieve their goal - in a roundabout way. They've managed to cripple D&D so badly that they're probably going to end up selling it, thus leaving them with fewer IPs.

It's all a little sad. D&D was my obsession all the way through high school, college, and beyond. But then again, none of those years involved Hasbro or Wizards of the Coast. I shouldn't mistake the product with the company. The product will continue, and this may actually end up being good for it and the industry. Wizards of the Hasbro have been getting really aggressive and greedy lately, apparently trying to model themselves after Games Workshop (now there's a role model :roll: .) Now they get to see what a cautionary tale looks like from the inside.
(˙pǝsɹǝʌǝɹ uǝǝq sɐɥ ʎʇıʌɐɹƃ ʃɐuosɹǝd ʎW)
User avatar
Smoove_B
Posts: 54567
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 12:58 am
Location: Kaer Morhen

Re: Tabletop Randomness

Post by Smoove_B »

Yeah, I get that. I am struggling because when I think of "D&D", I'm thinking of mainly AD&D and some 2E. I get that people are still playing those rules, but in trying to not be a grognard and adopt the latest set I'm honestly not feeling the love. We took an unscheduled break from 5E and the longer I'm away from it, the less enamored I am with it. I wanted it to feel like AD&D and initially it did, but the more WoTC products I purchased the clearer it's become that it's really just a shell. If it works for others, terrific, but I no longer think it adequately recaptures what I recall loving about AD&D so much.
Maybe next year, maybe no go
User avatar
Blackhawk
Posts: 43493
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 9:48 pm
Location: Southwest Indiana

Re: Tabletop Randomness

Post by Blackhawk »

When 5e launched, it was the closest to the original feel that D&D had come to in years. Yeah, there are actual 'old school' systems, but they lack the advances in the hobby that are worth having. But 5e's flaws eventually took some of the shine off of it. Too many things, from the character advancement (you make every major decision for your character by level 3) to the inspiration system (it's too binary, making players reluctant to use it) just start to feel blech. It was a great step forward for its time, but it's been surpassed.

FWIW, Pathfinder 2e comes a lot closer to the AD&D/2e (which is also what I think of when I say "D&D") feel than 5e ever did.
(˙pǝsɹǝʌǝɹ uǝǝq sɐɥ ʎʇıʌɐɹƃ ʃɐuosɹǝd ʎW)
User avatar
Smoove_B
Posts: 54567
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 12:58 am
Location: Kaer Morhen

Re: Tabletop Randomness

Post by Smoove_B »

I'm actually reading through the Pathfinder 2E stuff right now and enjoying it more than I thought would. I also have the starter set and will fiddle with it as well.

I'm running an online game of Dungeon Crawl Classics and so far, I think it's hitting the right balance between ease of use while still feeling very much like "classic" D&D. I do think I'm going to propose a Pathfinder 2E trial later this year or as our next system if we burn out on DCC, so that's something.
Maybe next year, maybe no go
User avatar
Redfive
Posts: 1905
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 11:12 am
Location: Back in Texas

Re: Tabletop Randomness

Post by Redfive »

My group is in the process of switching over to PF2E as well.

We didn't realize the issues we were having with 5e, or at least we didn't really discuss them, until we started looking into PF.

It looks really promising.
Battle.net: red51ve#1673
Elder Scrolls Online - @redfive
Post Reply