Ukraine

For discussion of religion and politics

Moderators: LawBeefaroni, $iljanus

Post Reply
User avatar
Alefroth
Posts: 8486
Joined: Thu Oct 14, 2004 1:56 pm
Location: Bellingham WA

Re: Ukraine

Post by Alefroth »

The reaction from the Rightists about the intelligence leak is so ridiculous and hypocritical. From deflecting to the SC leak to calling the leaker a hero or a patsy. It hasn't been that long since they would have been calling for him to be executed for endangering national security.
User avatar
hepcat
Posts: 51302
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 3:02 pm
Location: Chicago, IL Home of the triple homicide!

Re: Ukraine

Post by hepcat »

Smoove_B wrote: Thu Apr 13, 2023 5:35 pm She's on the Homeland Security Committee and she's apparently ok with people leaking classified documents. Totally makes sense.
It gets worse. There are supposedly videos of the guy at a shooting range shouting racist and antisemitic insults while shooting at targets. Magic the Gathering is once again hitching her star to white supremacists. At this point she should just start wearing an SS uniform and call everyone around her “my little gestapos”.
Covfefe!
User avatar
Isgrimnur
Posts: 82085
Joined: Sun Oct 15, 2006 12:29 am
Location: Chookity pok
Contact:

Re: Ukraine

Post by Isgrimnur »

Blackhawk wrote: Thu Apr 13, 2023 5:46 pm It's most likely in a training role, probably training a select group of Ukrainians who are, in turn, responsible for training the other Ukranians, plus training their military specialists in the use of the gear we've given them.

It's actually one of the most common roles of special operations soldiers.
It's almost as if people are the problem.
User avatar
Max Peck
Posts: 13682
Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2005 8:09 pm
Location: Down the Rabbit-Hole

Re: Ukraine

Post by Max Peck »

malchior wrote: Thu Apr 13, 2023 4:11 pm I'm trying to figure out how Biden is out there saying these leaks aren't of 'great consequence'. Who is he fooling? Our allies see us as untrustworthy and then he confirms it by lying to the public in an absolutely condescending way. The guy acts like a President who rocks ~32% approval rating. He justifies every doubt about his candor.
The full quote was "I’m not concerned about the leak. I’m concerned that it happened, but there’s nothing contemporaneous that I’m aware of that is of any consequence." His point seems to have been that he was more concerned by the fact it happened than by the specific material that was leaked, not that the leaks were a nothingburger.
"What? What? What?" -- The 14th Doctor

It's not enough to be a good player... you also have to play well. -- Siegbert Tarrasch
User avatar
LawBeefaroni
Forum Moderator
Posts: 55316
Joined: Fri Oct 15, 2004 3:08 pm
Location: Urbs in Horto, outrageous taxes on everything

Re: Ukraine

Post by LawBeefaroni »

hepcat wrote: Thu Apr 13, 2023 8:15 pm
Smoove_B wrote: Thu Apr 13, 2023 5:35 pm She's on the Homeland Security Committee and she's apparently ok with people leaking classified documents. Totally makes sense.
It gets worse. There are supposedly videos of the guy at a shooting range shouting racist and antisemitic insults while shooting at targets. Magic the Gathering is once again hitching her star to white supremacists. At this point she should just start wearing an SS uniform and call everyone around her “my little gestapos”.
Madge The Gathering:

Rep. Marjorie Taylor Greene🇺🇸
@RepMTG
Jake Teixeira is white, male, christian, and antiwar.

That makes him an enemy to the Biden regime.

And he told the truth about troops being on the ground in Ukraine and a lot more.

Ask yourself who is the real enemy?

A young low level national guardsmen?

Or the administration that is waging war in Ukraine, a non-NATO nation, against nuclear Russia without war powers?
3:46 PM · Apr 13, 2023
·
3.7M
Views
It is so absurd it is painful to even say it is absurd. It shouldn't need to be said.
" Hey OP, listen to my advice alright." -Tha General
"No scientific discovery is named after its original discoverer." -Stigler's Law of Eponymy, discovered by Robert K. Merton

MYT
malchior
Posts: 24794
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 12:58 pm

Re: Ukraine

Post by malchior »

Max Peck wrote: Thu Apr 13, 2023 8:44 pm
malchior wrote: Thu Apr 13, 2023 4:11 pm I'm trying to figure out how Biden is out there saying these leaks aren't of 'great consequence'. Who is he fooling? Our allies see us as untrustworthy and then he confirms it by lying to the public in an absolutely condescending way. The guy acts like a President who rocks ~32% approval rating. He justifies every doubt about his candor.
The full quote was "I’m not concerned about the leak. I’m concerned that it happened, but there’s nothing contemporaneous that I’m aware of that is of any consequence." His point seems to have been that he was more concerned by the fact it happened than by the specific material that was leaked, not that the leaks were a nothingburger.
Yeah I've seen the full quote. It's a lie. It's also important to understand the context. He was asked over and over about it and the administration ducked it. When he finally responds he plays it down while everyone is running and talking about how they are managing a serious leak that has serious consequences. I'm personally sick of the lying especially when it is clear to everyone that we're in deep shit. Lying isn't going to fool our enemies. It isn't going to mollify our allies who are watching us fall on our faces over and over. It doesn't address the fact that we're more unsafe than we were and Biden looks like he has no plan. We're broken and we need to start talking about it out loud like adults. Or else we don't have a chance.

While I find the MTG appalling, she is an attention soak. Make her the poster child for treason and MAGA but we shouldn't be distracted that Biden has made significant and repeated foreign policy blunders Ukraine aside. There is a straight line from Biden, MTG, and the United States being a shit show to the fact that the EU is hedging bets between us and China. Biden is failing us. He is failing badly and people can ooh and aah at MTG's antics but they are missing the real show to focus on the dancing bear.
Last edited by malchior on Thu Apr 13, 2023 9:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
YellowKing
Posts: 30126
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 2:02 pm

Re: Ukraine

Post by YellowKing »

I see it as typical political crisis mitigation. You don't deliver soundbites to your enemies on a silver platter admitting your weakness. You downplay it. Maybe it fools them, maybe it doesn't, but you don't gift wrap it.
malchior
Posts: 24794
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 12:58 pm

Re: Ukraine

Post by malchior »

YellowKing wrote: Thu Apr 13, 2023 9:32 pm I see it as typical political crisis mitigation. You don't deliver soundbites to your enemies on a silver platter admitting your weakness. You downplay it. Maybe it fools them, maybe it doesn't, but you don't gift wrap it.
This makes no sense to me. The damage is done. It isn't admitting your weakness when it is being documented in painful detail in the press. He wants it to go away because he lurches from crisis to crisis. Not all of his making but I'm sorry we need to get past the idea that Biden is even a decent President and I don't think lying Baghdad Bob style is doing him any favors.

Edit: If I'm coming off over the top it is because I have had discussions with immediate close contacts who worked at FBI, NSA, etc. and am hearing some real shock at how bad this leak was. And even though they aren't working for the Biden administration and don't have all the inside information they've expressed some shock at how the administration has been handling this based on the public accounts. I don't think people get that this leak shows that we essentially haven't significantly improved control over important secrets since Snowden or Manning. Compounding the damage is that the information leaked was reported to have exposed specific methods and operations techniques. Amongst our most closely guarded secrets.

Again all of this was talked about openly in the press so when Biden says it isn't of much consequence it is quite the departure. It's a lie. He could have chosen any course to manage this but he chose a lie that everyone sees through. IMO it's sad that we just accept that our President's word is next to worthless now and make excuses to overlook how low the office and our expectations are. This isn't even accepting mediocrity. We make excuses for failure. That never ends well.
User avatar
Max Peck
Posts: 13682
Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2005 8:09 pm
Location: Down the Rabbit-Hole

Re: Ukraine

Post by Max Peck »

malchior wrote: Thu Apr 13, 2023 9:36 pm Compounding the damage is that the information leaked was reported to have exposed specific methods and operations techniques. Amongst our most closely guarded secrets.
I haven't seen reporting to that effect ("specific methods and operations techniques"), but I may well have missed it. Can you point me in the direction of those reports?
"What? What? What?" -- The 14th Doctor

It's not enough to be a good player... you also have to play well. -- Siegbert Tarrasch
User avatar
Blackhawk
Posts: 43492
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 9:48 pm
Location: Southwest Indiana

Re: Ukraine

Post by Blackhawk »

Isgrimnur wrote: Thu Apr 13, 2023 8:29 pm
Blackhawk wrote: Thu Apr 13, 2023 5:46 pm It's most likely in a training role, probably training a select group of Ukrainians who are, in turn, responsible for training the other Ukranians, plus training their military specialists in the use of the gear we've given them.

It's actually one of the most common roles of special operations soldiers.
[Barry Sadler]
I'm familiar with the song, I just have no idea what it means in context.
(˙pǝsɹǝʌǝɹ uǝǝq sɐɥ ʎʇıʌɐɹƃ ʃɐuosɹǝd ʎW)
malchior
Posts: 24794
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 12:58 pm

Re: Ukraine

Post by malchior »

Max Peck wrote: Thu Apr 13, 2023 10:43 pm
malchior wrote: Thu Apr 13, 2023 9:36 pm Compounding the damage is that the information leaked was reported to have exposed specific methods and operations techniques. Amongst our most closely guarded secrets.
I haven't seen reporting to that effect ("specific methods and operations techniques"), but I may well have missed it. Can you point me in the direction of those reports?
Here is one
A stunning leak of a cache of classified Pentagon documents appears to be one of the most significant breaches of U.S. intelligence in decades, purportedly revealing national security secrets regarding Ukraine, Russia, Asia, and the Middle East, as well as details about U.S. espionage methods and the country’s spying on adversaries and allies.

...

After becoming aware of the leaked documents, the Pentagon launched an investigation and reportedly imposed a strict clampdown on access to U.S. intelligence. Politico reports that Pentagon officials were greatly distressed by the leak, adding that “experts said the disclosure could be even more damaging than the leak by Edward Snowden ten years ago, particularly because the information is so recent.”

That potential damage is manifold. It might have compromised various intelligence-collection methods and sources, allowing adversaries like Russia and China to evade future U.S. espionage efforts. Information in the documents regarding Ukraine’s military weaknesses may also prove valuable to Russia if the country was not previously aware of that information. But the documents also contain numerous assessments based on U.S. signals intelligence (the spy term for intercepted communications) that targeted friends and foes alike. In addition to the diplomatic fallout, this could prompt allies to shore up their defenses against U.S. surveillance. And as Politico national security reporter Erin Banco points out, “the leak of such highly classified intelligence raises serious questions about whether the U.S. can be trusted to share and disseminate the intel within the government in a safe and secure way.”

President Biden on Thursday seemed to brush off the significance of the breach, explaining that “I’m concerned that it happened but there is nothing contemporaneous that I’m aware of that is of great consequence.”
Other articles have referenced that there are ongoing US impact assessments to know more and other nations are conducting impact assessments as well. Initial reports focused more on the depth of penetration into the Russian government without considering that maybe exposes personnel and sources. And we probably won't get definitive updates about how bad it actually is. We'll just see it indirectly as loss of trust becomes evident between partners and allies.

I also am confused why no one is talking about the cumulative impacts. Examples of losses of classified data involving Snowden, Manning, Reality Winner, and no other then Trump taking secrets to Mar-A-Lago. Then this one on top while we are still reeling from that from just this fall. There are big problems but 'no lasting damage' says the US government after they fuck up for the nth time. To put a fine point on it, Ukraine says they don't worry because they haven't shared their most important plans with the United States because they didn't trust that the US government could keep them safe. Maybe that's just post hoc talk though.
Last edited by malchior on Fri Apr 14, 2023 7:12 am, edited 2 times in total.
User avatar
Isgrimnur
Posts: 82085
Joined: Sun Oct 15, 2006 12:29 am
Location: Chookity pok
Contact:

Ukraine

Post by Isgrimnur »

Blackhawk wrote:
Isgrimnur wrote: Thu Apr 13, 2023 8:29 pm
Blackhawk wrote: Thu Apr 13, 2023 5:46 pm It's most likely in a training role, probably training a select group of Ukrainians who are, in turn, responsible for training the other Ukranians, plus training their military specialists in the use of the gear we've given them.

It's actually one of the most common roles of special operations soldiers.
[Barry Sadler]
Green Berets were the trainers during the Vietnam War.

I'm familiar with the song, I just have no idea what it means in context.
The Special Forces commitment to Vietnam had a more humble start centered around twelve-man “A” teams. It began in 1957 with a ten-man SF detachment sent to train Army of the Republic of Vietnam (ARVN) soldiers in Ranger tactics and techniques. Special Forces A teams rotated in and out of Vietnam on mission-specific mobile training teams until 1960. Then A teams from the 1st and 7th SFGs rotated as units for six-month temporary duty (TDY) tours to “train, advise, and lead Civilian Irregular Defense Group (CIDG) Montagnard (sometimes Nung, Cambodian, and Vietnamese) irregular soldiers against the Viet Cong in the Central highlands of South Vietnam.”
It's almost as if people are the problem.
malchior
Posts: 24794
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 12:58 pm

Re: Ukraine

Post by malchior »

Of course, another factor in the wildness here is that we have GOP state media ENCOURAGING this behavior. I think most reasonable people think that leaking war plans is inherently something that gets people killed and that's ... you know at it's core... wrong.

User avatar
Kurth
Posts: 5882
Joined: Tue Jan 04, 2005 1:19 am
Location: Portland

Re: Ukraine

Post by Kurth »

I hate his face. Just hate it. It’s horrible.
Just 'cause you feel it, doesn't mean it's there -- Radiohead
Do you believe me? Do you trust me? Do you like me? 😳
User avatar
TheMix
Posts: 10904
Joined: Thu Oct 14, 2004 5:19 pm
Location: Broomfield, Colorado

Re: Ukraine

Post by TheMix »

Kurth wrote: Fri Apr 14, 2023 11:30 am I hate his face. Just hate it. It’s horrible.
Me too. It's like watching a young child trying to act for the first time and being told "now show us your concerned face".

Black Lives Matter

Isgrimnur - Facebook makes you hate your friends and family. LinkedIn makes you hate you co-workers. NextDoor makes you hate your neighbors.
User avatar
Zarathud
Posts: 16434
Joined: Fri Oct 15, 2004 10:29 pm
Location: Chicago, Illinois

Re: Ukraine

Post by Zarathud »

And that face belongs to the person who received from House Republicans exclusive access to unreviewed footage from January 6.

The security issue is Tucker Carlson’s encouragement of leaks to embarrass Democrats.
"If the facts don't fit the theory, change the facts." - Albert Einstein
"I don't stand by anything." - Trump
“Bad men need nothing more to compass their ends, than that good men should look on and do nothing.” - John Stuart Mill, Inaugural Address Delivered to the University of St Andrews, 2/1/1867
“It is the impractical things in this tumultuous hell-scape of a world that matter most. A book, a name, chicken soup. They help us remember that, even in our darkest hour, life is still to be savored.” - Poe, Altered Carbon
malchior
Posts: 24794
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 12:58 pm

Re: Ukraine

Post by malchior »

The dumb is off the charts. Fuck Carlson and fuck Musk.

User avatar
Daehawk
Posts: 63524
Joined: Sat Jan 01, 2005 1:11 am

Re: Ukraine

Post by Daehawk »

Im sure Musk will be out there leading the charge in his up-armored Tesla with 'drive you right into the Russkies' navigation.
--------------------------------------------
I am Dyslexic of Borg, prepare to have your ass laminated.
I guess Ray Butts has ate his last pancake.
http://steamcommunity.com/id/daehawk
"Has high IQ. Refuses to apply it"
User avatar
LawBeefaroni
Forum Moderator
Posts: 55316
Joined: Fri Oct 15, 2004 3:08 pm
Location: Urbs in Horto, outrageous taxes on everything

Re: Ukraine

Post by LawBeefaroni »

Musk is just Trump on an accelerated course. He's Trump 2.0. Premier bullshitter and fraudster, racist, misogynist, his business acumen and intelligence is overrated by his fanbois while his shamelessness and brashness are underestimated by everyone else.
" Hey OP, listen to my advice alright." -Tha General
"No scientific discovery is named after its original discoverer." -Stigler's Law of Eponymy, discovered by Robert K. Merton

MYT
User avatar
LordMortis
Posts: 70100
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 11:26 pm

Re: Ukraine

Post by LordMortis »

LawBeefaroni wrote: Fri Apr 14, 2023 6:25 pm Musk is just Trump on an accelerated course. He's Trump 2.0. Premier bullshitter and fraudster, racist, misogynist, his business acumen and intelligence is overrated by his fanbois while his shamelessness and brashness are underestimated by everyone else.
+1. He's the second face on a crooked two faced coin. They're the same person.
User avatar
Unagi
Posts: 26376
Joined: Wed Sep 20, 2006 5:14 pm
Location: Chicago

Re: Ukraine

Post by Unagi »

LordMortis wrote: Sat Apr 15, 2023 7:32 am
LawBeefaroni wrote: Fri Apr 14, 2023 6:25 pm Musk is just Trump on an accelerated course. He's Trump 2.0. Premier bullshitter and fraudster, racist, misogynist, his business acumen and intelligence is overrated by his fanbois while his shamelessness and brashness are underestimated by everyone else.
+1. He's the second face on a crooked two faced coin. They're the same person.
Only this one had the money and foresight to purchase Twitter beforehand.

Honestly, there is some serious "villain" culture really starting to blossom right now that is hard to understand... like it's hard to see how (many) people support this shit, so much.
User avatar
YellowKing
Posts: 30126
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 2:02 pm

Re: Ukraine

Post by YellowKing »

Unagi wrote:like it's hard to see how (many) people support this shit, so much.
Money, it's always money.
User avatar
Daehawk
Posts: 63524
Joined: Sat Jan 01, 2005 1:11 am

Re: Ukraine

Post by Daehawk »

--------------------------------------------
I am Dyslexic of Borg, prepare to have your ass laminated.
I guess Ray Butts has ate his last pancake.
http://steamcommunity.com/id/daehawk
"Has high IQ. Refuses to apply it"
User avatar
Daehawk
Posts: 63524
Joined: Sat Jan 01, 2005 1:11 am

Re: Ukraine

Post by Daehawk »

More random video with no confirmation.

--------------------------------------------
I am Dyslexic of Borg, prepare to have your ass laminated.
I guess Ray Butts has ate his last pancake.
http://steamcommunity.com/id/daehawk
"Has high IQ. Refuses to apply it"
User avatar
Isgrimnur
Posts: 82085
Joined: Sun Oct 15, 2006 12:29 am
Location: Chookity pok
Contact:

Re: Ukraine

Post by Isgrimnur »

Guardian
The Nato secretary general, Jens Stoltenberg, has said all member countries have agreed that Ukraine will eventually join the transatlantic military alliance once the war is over, ahead of a meeting of western defence ministers discussing further military aid for Kyiv.
It's almost as if people are the problem.
User avatar
Max Peck
Posts: 13682
Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2005 8:09 pm
Location: Down the Rabbit-Hole

Re: Ukraine

Post by Max Peck »

Orban didn't get the memo
Hungary's Prime Minister Viktor Orban has cast doubt on Ukraine's long-held aspiration to join Nato.

His intervention came after the bloc's boss, Jens Stoltenberg, said on Friday that "all Nato allies have agreed that Ukraine will become a Nato member".

Mr Stoltenberg has consistently said Kyiv will join Nato in the medium term, once the Russian invasion is over.

But Mr Orban was quick to express his surprise at the latest claim in a one-word tweet on Friday afternoon.

"What?!" the Hungarian prime minister exclaimed, reacting to an article on Mr Stoltenberg's comments.
"What? What? What?" -- The 14th Doctor

It's not enough to be a good player... you also have to play well. -- Siegbert Tarrasch
User avatar
waitingtoconnect
Posts: 960
Joined: Sun May 28, 2006 5:56 am

Re: Ukraine

Post by waitingtoconnect »

LawBeefaroni wrote: Fri Apr 14, 2023 6:25 pm Musk is just Trump on an accelerated course. He's Trump 2.0. Premier bullshitter and fraudster, racist, misogynist, his business acumen and intelligence is overrated by his fanbois while his shamelessness and brashness are underestimated by everyone else.
Musk was born and raised in apartheid South Africa. I know many rich white South African expats who think as he does and they have support from elements in the west who vote Putin as an ally in a pan national “managed democracy moment”.
User avatar
waitingtoconnect
Posts: 960
Joined: Sun May 28, 2006 5:56 am

Re: Ukraine

Post by waitingtoconnect »

People need to get back to the real issue.

Putin is telling Russians that Ukraine IS Russia. So he will not nuke https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novorossiya which is the south and east of what is now Ukraine and he will not nuke Kiev which is for Russian nationalists the birthplace of Russia.

Basically Putin is using a very simplified and corrupted view of central Asian and Eastern European history to push a resurrection of a 19th century imperialist agenda.

He can be stopped because he’ll never burn his own lands. But we have to stop this crazy infighting.
User avatar
LordMortis
Posts: 70100
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 11:26 pm

Re: Ukraine

Post by LordMortis »

Kiev which is for Russian nationalists the birthplace of Russia.
Why doesn't Russia just become part of Ukraine?
User avatar
waitingtoconnect
Posts: 960
Joined: Sun May 28, 2006 5:56 am

Re: Ukraine

Post by waitingtoconnect »

Russia has never been defeated back to the core like all other European nations bar the Uk - that creates an arrogance in both.

Eastern European history is insanely complex. Many nations were born in the same areas and both can claim it like Kosovo, Prussia/Germany and Ukraine. Russians and Germans and other nationalities have historically lived in many different areas due to the empires in the area. Pre ww1 and ww2 the ethnic map of Europe was very confusing which led the allies to approve Stallins ethnic cleansing of Eastern Europe into more defined nation states built on ethnic lines in a bid to avoid another war.

The old Soviet Union is a lot like the Austrian Hungarian empire collapse. It’s going to lead to a lot of wars.
User avatar
Holman
Posts: 28906
Joined: Sun Oct 24, 2004 8:00 pm
Location: Between the Schuylkill and the Wissahickon

Re: Ukraine

Post by Holman »

I feel like the most likely and most humanitarian outcome of the war is this:

1) Let Russia absorb the eastern frontier of Ukraine (the thin region culturally Russian).
2) Immediately admit Ukraine into NATO and the EU.
3) Insist on freedom of movement so Ukrainians can leave Russian-controlled territory and vice-versa.
4) Declare applicable events of the Russian invasion of Ukraine to be war crimes, subject to the Hague.
5) Apply sanctions and economic penalties on individuals and entities who profited from war crimes.

This would end the fighting, stabilize Ukraine, secure a European border, and punish aggression. It would thwart further Russian ambitions and leave room for a post-Putin Russia to re-enter the community of nations.

---

I guess my naive question is this: to what degree is Ukraine's eastern frontier actually "culturally Russian"? I've read differing accounts, so I don't really know. And then of course Crimea is its own question.
Much prefer my Nazis Nuremberged.
User avatar
waitingtoconnect
Posts: 960
Joined: Sun May 28, 2006 5:56 am

Re: Ukraine

Post by waitingtoconnect »

Holman wrote: Sat Apr 22, 2023 6:17 pm I feel like the most likely and most humanitarian outcome of the war is this:

1) Let Russia absorb the eastern frontier of Ukraine (the thin region culturally Russian).
2) Immediately admit Ukraine into NATO and the EU.
3) Insist on freedom of movement so Ukrainians can leave Russian-controlled territory and vice-versa.
4) Declare applicable events of the Russian invasion of Ukraine to be war crimes, subject to the Hague.
5) Apply sanctions and economic penalties on individuals and entities who profited from war crimes.

This would end the fighting, stabilize Ukraine, secure a European border, and punish aggression. It would thwart further Russian ambitions and leave room for a post-Putin Russia to re-enter the community of nations.

---

I guess my naive question is this: to what degree is Ukraine's eastern frontier actually "culturally Russian"? I've read differing accounts, so I don't really know. And then of course Crimea is its own question.
Most eastern ukranians speak Russian due to Russification efforts in the Cold War. They identify as Ukrainian (mostly) in the same way that an Irishman, American or Indian may speak English.

For Putin and his nationalists there is no Ukraine. They are a “lost”Russian people who speak Russian or a dialect called Ukrainian.

Without the east and Crimea Ukraine is not a viable state and they would always have russias boot on their throat.

The reality is Ukraine needs to be largely totally free or part of Russia.
User avatar
Holman
Posts: 28906
Joined: Sun Oct 24, 2004 8:00 pm
Location: Between the Schuylkill and the Wissahickon

Re: Ukraine

Post by Holman »

waitingtoconnect wrote: Sat Apr 22, 2023 10:59 pm
Holman wrote: Sat Apr 22, 2023 6:17 pm I feel like the most likely and most humanitarian outcome of the war is this:

1) Let Russia absorb the eastern frontier of Ukraine (the thin region culturally Russian).
2) Immediately admit Ukraine into NATO and the EU.
3) Insist on freedom of movement so Ukrainians can leave Russian-controlled territory and vice-versa.
4) Declare applicable events of the Russian invasion of Ukraine to be war crimes, subject to the Hague.
5) Apply sanctions and economic penalties on individuals and entities who profited from war crimes.

This would end the fighting, stabilize Ukraine, secure a European border, and punish aggression. It would thwart further Russian ambitions and leave room for a post-Putin Russia to re-enter the community of nations.

---

I guess my naive question is this: to what degree is Ukraine's eastern frontier actually "culturally Russian"? I've read differing accounts, so I don't really know. And then of course Crimea is its own question.
Most eastern ukranians speak Russian due to Russification efforts in the Cold War. They identify as Ukrainian (mostly) in the same way that an Irishman, American or Indian may speak English.

For Putin and his nationalists there is no Ukraine. They are a “lost”Russian people who speak Russian or a dialect called Ukrainian.

Without the east and Crimea Ukraine is not a viable state and they would always have russias boot on their throat.

The reality is Ukraine needs to be largely totally free or part of Russia.
I may be misinformed, but my sense is that there is very significant pro-Russia sentiment in far-eastern Ukraine, at least to the point of very firmly voting for the pro-Russia/anti-Western candidate in all pre-invasion elections.

As for Russia's future boot on Ukraine's throat, that's what joining NATO is for.

Still, I would love to see the total collapse of Russia's invasion (and of Putin's regime, while we're wishing).
Much prefer my Nazis Nuremberged.
User avatar
waitingtoconnect
Posts: 960
Joined: Sun May 28, 2006 5:56 am

Re: Ukraine

Post by waitingtoconnect »

n recent years, despite growing tensions with Russia and the threat of war, the eastern part of Ukraine had retained generally positive attitudes toward its neighbor to the east: 53 percent in Ukraine’s east and 45 percent in the south viewed Russia favorably. Some went as far as to support unification with Russia: 22 percent in the Luhansk region, and 11 percent in the Kherson region.

Russia’s invasion largely put an end to this pro-Russian sentiment: by May 2022, only 4 percent in Ukraine’s east and 1 percent in the south still had a positive view of Russia.

What Russia is doing now is ethnically cleansing the areas it's taken. Ukrainians have left while pro-Russian Ukrainians are staying and Russian citizens are being shipped in to tilt any legitimate future referendums in Russias favour.

I
User avatar
Unagi
Posts: 26376
Joined: Wed Sep 20, 2006 5:14 pm
Location: Chicago

Re: Ukraine

Post by Unagi »

There's that missing I

:D
User avatar
Smoove_B
Posts: 54567
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 12:58 am
Location: Kaer Morhen

Re: Ukraine

Post by Smoove_B »

This headline had me doing a double take:
Russian troops were reportedly infected with anthrax after unearthing a burial site for cattle while digging defensive trenches in southern Ukraine.

The unit was ordered into immediate quarantine, after doctors diagnosed cases of the deadly disease in at least two soldiers, according to Ivan Fedorov, the exiled Ukrainian mayor of Melitopol.

...

It is not the first time the environment in Ukraine has wreaked havoc with Russian troops since their invasion last February.

When Moscow’s troops captured the areas around the Chernobyl nuclear disaster, units were forced to dig trenches in highly radioactive soil in the exclusion zone.
Maybe next year, maybe no go
User avatar
Max Peck
Posts: 13682
Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2005 8:09 pm
Location: Down the Rabbit-Hole

Re: Ukraine

Post by Max Peck »

I'm surprised that the Russians didn't take the opportunity to accuse Ukraine of using biological weapons. Yet.
"What? What? What?" -- The 14th Doctor

It's not enough to be a good player... you also have to play well. -- Siegbert Tarrasch
User avatar
Daehawk
Posts: 63524
Joined: Sat Jan 01, 2005 1:11 am

Re: Ukraine

Post by Daehawk »

I heard something about the way China is talking and phrasing stuff that they might want back that part of Siberia and such Russia took hundreds of years ago. Whoops. Man China could steamroll Russia in that area.
--------------------------------------------
I am Dyslexic of Borg, prepare to have your ass laminated.
I guess Ray Butts has ate his last pancake.
http://steamcommunity.com/id/daehawk
"Has high IQ. Refuses to apply it"
malchior
Posts: 24794
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 12:58 pm

Re: Ukraine

Post by malchior »

Meanwhile in Ukraine, the Russians launched a massive missile attack across multiple cities believed to be aligned to May Day. Missiles started around 4-4:30 AM - ostensibly to inflict maximum civilian casualties.

User avatar
Daehawk
Posts: 63524
Joined: Sat Jan 01, 2005 1:11 am

Re: Ukraine

Post by Daehawk »

Isn't what Putin is doing basically terrorism? He is not fighting an army he is attacking citizens outright.
--------------------------------------------
I am Dyslexic of Borg, prepare to have your ass laminated.
I guess Ray Butts has ate his last pancake.
http://steamcommunity.com/id/daehawk
"Has high IQ. Refuses to apply it"
Post Reply