LGBT issues thread (was Supreme Court to hear same-sex marriage cases)

[YellowKing]

My daughter also has a significant amount of friends (by significant I mean 2 or 3 which is like 50% of her immediate friend group) who are exploring gender roles and sexuality. And it seemingly changes from week to week how they identify or whether they're gay or not. So yes, I absolutely agree there is some experimentation and jumping on trends going on. I have no doubt in some cases it's a form of attention-seeking.

I don't, however, think those are the same kids considering gender reassignment surgery.

I'm all for putting in as many safeguards as possible to make sure kids are absolutely sure with their parents and physicians of the decisions. However, I'm extremely skeptical about government taking a role when one party is hell-bent on marginalizing and restricting transgender people in any way possible. Let's make no mistake, nothing about government involvement in this is about "protecting the kids." It's about wiping transgender people off the map and trying to make the "problem" go away.

[Unagi]

I’m curious if any one here actually has and loves and struggles with, let’s say a 13/14 year old child that actually is talking about gender affirming care?

Yes. And that's part of the issue.

This is purely anecdotal, but it has a decent sample size as my brother works in a 4000+ student school.

I have two biological female daughters. The elder is now 18. From 13-17 her and her entire friend group were transgender. My younger is turning 15 and is a boy. Most of his friend group are also transgender. Either we have the highest concentration of transgender kids in the world, or there's some confusion going on.

It's totally understandable. We support all of them however we can. Name changes, pronoun changes. Forcing extended family to cooperate. Therapists; etc

My less than average informed opinion is that with the world confronting non-binary gender, they are trying to explore the idea that they aren't gender typical. Ie they don't feel, act, or look like tv/movie/society girls and therefore can't be girls. Yet, there is so little role model for this they still try to exist in a binary world. "I'm not a girl therefore I must be a boy" on top a bit of rebellious "I'm going to shock my parents" and you get this situation

It's 100% guaranteed there are bad doctors out there. My wife's family has had multiple run-ins with dentists who have started procedures and then halfway through tried to upgrade it to a higher priced outcome. I listen to advertisements all the way in to work for testosterone boosters which have no medical basis. It's not that hard to find COVID and vaccine denying doctors if there's a buck involved.

To make my stance clear, I'm fine with gender affirming care up to the point of permanent changes to minors. Puberty blockers I can understand as it's not permanent though, I'd definitely like more research.

Hell, we don't even allow them to get tattoos in some states.

And let's stop with the notion that if we don't let them have gender transition surgery at 16 they are committing suicide. That's a totally false dichotomy. If we get them positive support with therapy and the expectation that they can make an adult decision when they are adults, I'm guessing it would go a long way to helping. Furthermore, I would bet you'd have a really hard time getting the medical community to agree that the best solution for attempted suicide is surgery.

Well, it sounds like you and I are of nearly identical minds on this (forgive me if I now go on to say something stupid), although our stories are different.

I also have a child (they/them) who we've been helping understand their own position in the world as well. In my case, I have a child who was born male and autistic (it's certainly part of this story), and about 3 years ago, at 13-yo, and while being one-on-one educated (also, sadly, relevant to the story) they came to us with the declaration that they were agender/non-binary. This is a child that I can honestly say would self-identify as 'not even human' if there was a strong movement for that type of label. We are so supportive of this child, but we did not feel comfortable letting this 13-year-old brain just take control of this aspect of their future. I can't begin to tell you how we've struggled. They (my child) have never once come across as 'female' leaning, so it was kinda out-of-nowhere. I only mention that to communicate that this isn't remotely a child that anyone would have gotten the feeling like they were always leaning 'female'. They have a younger sister they never played with, preferring to play 'Ultimate Epic Battle Simulator' or 'Space Pirates and Zombies'. That being said, I also would say they were not overtly macho either, but I'm not remotely like that either, etc. In any case, we honored their declaration and have seen therapists and talked to half a dozen doctors, etc. (This story is now almost 3 years old). We were about to turn down the road of puberty blockers, but then my child decided they didn't want that and instead just wanted 'female' hormone therapy, but still insisted on a non-binary status. In Illinois, for a minor, this requires some sign-off from a third-party therapist that basically (seemingly is asked to) takes on the liability of the "they are ready for this therapy" aspect. It also takes the parent's sign-off, but if the professionals were on board we were in the position that we were also on board, as long as they knew our child. Well, after almost a year, the therapist my child was seeing did not feel entirely comfortable signing off on that, but was open to discussing things with the original doctor that was handling the eventual therapy. I think the main issue was that gender 'affirming' therapy is most often only given to a person that wants to affirm a gender. To use the therapy only to 'blur the lines or to simply help create more ambiguity is not how it's traditionally been billed. So, not that there really is one, but my child is not the typical transgender story. They are really quite brilliant and sometimes know more than the doctors (another problem the therapist had was a technical one, but the paper-work she was asked if "we all understood" had some outdated information in it - which she was only aware of because my child pointed it all out...). But also, my child (Sorry, saying "they" can be ambiguous so I keep saying "my child" - I would normally use their name) had a weird start to all of it... being young and autistic, they were (less so now) really easily manipulated by other people on certain things, and they were also easy to get fixated on things... It added another element to the situation. And yet they articulated their feelings fairly well. Ultimately, I assume my child truly feels non-binary... whatever that really truly means. My child would have their testicles removed so they wouldn't need to combat testosterone their whole life, and take estrogen. When the above therapy fell apart, they declared they would simply wait until they turned 16 and they would investigate doing it on their own. That was 1 month ago. They still actually want to do it, but their Executive Functioning skills are just not doing it. I ask if they need my help with anything every day.

My child now goes to the public school again (no longer at the special one-on-one place) but in a special wing of the high school that has about 20 kids. They cover grades 9-12, all without learning or behavior disabilities, but all with social problems (like autism, or other things) that keep them from succeeding in the normal population of students. And that group of kids also has a statistically off number of transgender kids. My kid is friendly with about 4-5 kids there... Every one of them is also non-binary or transgender-female. They recently got a dress and occasionally wear that to school (as do a couple of their friends).

[Kurth]

These are incredibly difficult issues. Unagi, it sounds like you are doing all you can to support your child in the best way that you can. I don’t think there are any easy answers to any of this. Just empathy, compassion, best efforts and love.

[noxiousdog]

Thanks for the story, Unagi. I think we have similar children, but mine suffers from some mild depression and anxiety though, as one of the therapists says, you have to be very careful about treating "growing up is hard" with medication.

My kid hasn't asked for any hormones yet so I haven't had to confront it. That's going to be a really tough conversation if it ever happens. Not because I care what gender he is; but because nothing of his actions lead me to believe he's a boy. If we believed everything that came out of a 14 year old mouth, we wouldn't prevent them from doing a whole host of things. 1 year ago he wanted a hysterectomy (for period avoidance; not for gender). Now he wants a family, and plans on kids before his elder siblings.

[Blackhawk]

I’m curious if any one here actually has and loves and struggles with, let’s say a 13/14 year old child that actually is talking about gender affirming care?

Yes...ish. They're 21 now. For us it was simply never an option (Medicaid ain't havin' none o' that.)

[hepcat]

My daughter also has a significant amount of friends (by significant I mean 2 or 3 which is like 50% of her immediate friend group) who are exploring gender roles and sexuality. And it seemingly changes from week to week how they identify or whether they're gay or not. So yes, I absolutely agree there is some experimentation and jumping on trends going on. I have no doubt in some cases it's a form of attention-seeking.

I don't, however, think those are the same kids considering gender reassignment surgery.

I'm all for putting in as many safeguards as possible to make sure kids are absolutely sure with their parents and physicians of the decisions. However, I'm extremely skeptical about government taking a role when one party is hell-bent on marginalizing and restricting transgender people in any way possible. Let's make no mistake, nothing about government involvement in this is about "protecting the kids." It's about wiping transgender people off the map and trying to make the "problem" go away.

+1

I'm in total agreement with all of this.

[El Guapo]

My daughter also has a significant amount of friends (by significant I mean 2 or 3 which is like 50% of her immediate friend group) who are exploring gender roles and sexuality. And it seemingly changes from week to week how they identify or whether they're gay or not. So yes, I absolutely agree there is some experimentation and jumping on trends going on. I have no doubt in some cases it's a form of attention-seeking.

I don't, however, think those are the same kids considering gender reassignment surgery.

I'm all for putting in as many safeguards as possible to make sure kids are absolutely sure with their parents and physicians of the decisions. However, I'm extremely skeptical about government taking a role when one party is hell-bent on marginalizing and restricting transgender people in any way possible. Let's make no mistake, nothing about government involvement in this is about "protecting the kids." It's about wiping transgender people off the map and trying to make the "problem" go away.

+1

I'm in total agreement with all of this.

Yup. For what it's worth it's the same with my daughter - her classmates are all per her account some mixture of gay, bisexual, asexual, and a number of other things. She said that she felt like she was the only kid in her grade that thinks she's probably straight. Very different from when I was in middle school, when without exaggeration I'm not sure that I knew that gay people were even a thing.

That said, as YK said a kid talking in middle school about what they think their sexual / gender identity might be is very different from one who is talking to their parents and a doctor about possible gender transition care. And while this stuff is a reminder that sexuality and gender are in general far less settled at 14 than 40, that part of things doesn't provide a great rationale for government involvement since in general parents and kids are best positioned to assess whether a child is questioning or whether they are trans.

As I've said where this stuff gets genuinely more complex is that considerations of consent and legal competency to make decisions that are fundamental to medicine tend to get more thorny the younger the person in question is.

[gbasden]

Yeah, I suppose I should state my views clearer here. I'm in no way suggesting we should be routinely performing surgeries on 12 year olds.

...

I don't think people are arguing it's surgery or suicide. Instead I think they're arguing that ignoring issues surrounding gender identity and not allowing teenagers the space (through non-surgical/medical) elements to explore their options, it's potentially contributing to increased suicide risk. Seeing how local or state culture pushes back or accepts the LGBTQ+ community overall is what's impacting the suicide rates. Over and over again you'll hear from members in the community how they wish they could have been seen or felt comfortable to do things - particularly with parents or guardians - but instead they were told be heteronormative or else. I know this is branching out from trans issues into the larger umbrella, but it's the same (general) idea.

I completely agree with Smoove. I didn't mean to imply that I thought that we should be giving every child who is questioning their sexuality gender reassignment surgery. I think it should be rare and only in the most severe cases for children. I also think it's undeniable that those states that are making care into a political issue are going to cause significant harm to children that have real gender dysphoria issues. I think the way you are treating your children is admirable and supportive, and they are lucky to have you for a parent.

[Zarathud]

The conservatives railing against saying gay or trans have put these issues squarely in many children’s faces of what they need to consider.

Figuring out sexual identity and preferences was hard enough in the gender ambiguous and big hair of the 80s. Now there is political pressure in addition to peer pressure to declare for one side or the other — with more options, for better or worse.

[Smoove_B]

I mean seriously, just to circle back to what's happening.

Missouri now has a page where people can report trans individuals and the people who help them to the state. I hate this place.

It's evil and it's happening in America.

[Zarathud]

Part of the reason my youngest struggles with identity is because of the many rude comments during her life (from adults and children alike) saying she looked and acted like a boy, not a girl. She’s built like a square now and will eventually round out like my cousin — and have all the boys panting.

My oldest has decided since teenage boys are gross, she might as well be a lesbian. And she’s declared that Piper from Fallout is cute — which may be my fault in explaining that I’d rather play a girl in an ARPG because they were more fun to look at while playing the game. She’s also right — the boys her age have not learned basic hygiene skills. We’ll find out soon as we joked she wasn’t allowed to date before 16. And that birthday is coming up quickly.

I’ve told my kids they will know who and what they like when the time comes, and that they’ll figure out they‘ll find a “type” who will repeatedly interest them. And love can be deaf, dumb, blind and stupid.

[Unagi]

I mean seriously, just to circle back to what's happening.

Missouri now has a page where people can report trans individuals and the people who help them to the state. I hate this place.

It's evil and it's happening in America.

Unfuckingbeliveable. seriously.

[Unagi]

My oldest has decided since teenage boys are gross, she might as well be a lesbian.

Or just right, but yeah.

[malchior]

Oy to this headline by the editors. The article itself makes reasonable observations.

[Smoove_B]

Unfuckingbeliveable. seriously.

Also, no longer working:

A Missouri government tip site for submitting complaints and concerns about gender-affirming care is down after people flooded it with fanfiction, rambling anecdotes and the “Bee Movie” script.

...

Madeline Sieren, press secretary for Missouri Attorney General Andrew Bailey, blamed “far left activists” for breaking the site. She said the tip line is down temporarily.

“Rather than standing on their supposed science to back up their facts, they’re resorting to trying to hack our system to silence victims of the exact network we’re attempting to expose,” Sieren told TechCrunch in an email. “In order to ensure the integrity of a government website, the page is temporarily down while we investigate these matters.”

Sieren did not clarify what the “hack” entailed.

[Blackhawk]

Oh, no! Mean people broke our hate tool!

Better far left activists than far right extremists.

[Smoove_B]

This was in the modern GOP thread, but it should be here too

BREAKING: The Montana House, on a 68-32 vote, bans the state's first trans woman lawmaker, Rep. Zooey Zephyr, from the floor, anteroom, & gallery for the rest of this session, following several days of silencing her, after she raised her mic for supporters in the gallery Monday.

[Unagi]

Selective Outrage in its most vile and horrible form.

[Smoove_B]

Yup. For what it's worth it's the same with my daughter - her classmates are all per her account some mixture of gay, bisexual, asexual, and a number of other things. She said that she felt like she was the only kid in her grade that thinks she's probably straight. Very different from when I was in middle school, when without exaggeration I'm not sure that I knew that gay people were even a thing.

Remembered these posts and figured I'd follow up with info from the CDC that was shared yesterday:

About 1 in 4 high school students identifies as LGBTQ, according to a report the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) released on Thursday, using data from 2021.

In 2021, 75.5 percent of high school students identified as heterosexual, the CDC’s Youth Risk Behavior Surveillance System (YRBSS) found.

Among high school students, 12.2 percent identified as bisexual, 5.2 percent as questioning, 3.9 percent as other, 3.2 percent as gay or lesbian and 1.8 percent said they didn’t understand the question.

The CDC says the number of LGBTQ students went from 11 percent in 2015 to 26 percent in 2021.

[malchior]

About 1 in 4 high school students identifies as LGBTQ, according to a report the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) released on Thursday, using data from 2021.

In 2021, 75.5 percent of high school students identified as heterosexual, the CDC’s Youth Risk Behavior Surveillance System (YRBSS) found.

Among high school students, 12.2 percent identified as bisexual, 5.2 percent as questioning, 3.9 percent as other, 3.2 percent as gay or lesbian and 1.8 percent said they didn’t understand the question.

The CDC says the number of LGBTQ students went from 11 percent in 2015 to 26 percent in 2021.

There has been a significant debate with a range of opinion on the distribution of sexuality with the "extremists" of old arguing it might be a normal distribution. Or the classical 1 in 10 argument for homosexuality which was reductive and also conformed to the predominant counting system. Looks like the 'normal distribution' folks might be right. If it is normally distributed you'd expect ~70% CIS and 30% non-CIS. Interesting stuff. I find myself interested in digging up European data.

[Smoove_B]

The YRBSS is historically kinda wiggly with respect to the information that is reported. Generally speaking, the problem with a lot of the surveys they ask teenagers to take, many times they're answering what they think they should be saying ("Do you use a condom for every sexual encounter?") vs what they're actually doing.

That said, this is a pretty big jump and I'm hoping they publish follow up studies after crunching the data a bit more. Ideally this could also be something they could follow up with in another 5+ years (same cohort) to see if the trend holds.

[noxiousdog]

I think it's an interesting survey to see how open teens are to explore sexuality, but I question its validity in extrapolating to adult populations. I know lots of people who experimented when they were young and would have answered those questions much differently at 20 than they would later in life.

Anecdote: My biological female kids redefine their sexuality every few months and have way more names for it than I knew existed. The boy just watches porn.

[Smoove_B]

Not sure if I confused it, but I'm not trying to extrapolate to adult populations. Instead, I'm trying to see if they can get more data that would see if this pattern holds into the early 20s - the idea that "kids" are just figuring things out and trying to come to terms with whatever is.

[El Guapo]

About 1 in 4 high school students identifies as LGBTQ, according to a report the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) released on Thursday, using data from 2021.

In 2021, 75.5 percent of high school students identified as heterosexual, the CDC’s Youth Risk Behavior Surveillance System (YRBSS) found.

Among high school students, 12.2 percent identified as bisexual, 5.2 percent as questioning, 3.9 percent as other, 3.2 percent as gay or lesbian and 1.8 percent said they didn’t understand the question.

The CDC says the number of LGBTQ students went from 11 percent in 2015 to 26 percent in 2021.

There has been a significant debate with a range of opinion on the distribution of sexuality with the "extremists" of old arguing it might be a normal distribution. Or the classical 1 in 10 argument for homosexuality which was reductive and also conformed to the predominant counting system. Looks like the 'normal distribution' folks might be right. If it is normally distributed you'd expect ~70% CIS and 30% non-CIS. Interesting stuff. I find myself interested in digging up European data.

Do you know anything else about the basis for the 1 in 10? That's generally what I have heard as well, and I always had the sense that it was in the nature of an educated guess, though it seemed vaguely plausible. I also imagine that it originated when there was considerably less public discourse about this subject in general, and especially about any sexuality other than straight or gay. (e.g., the BTQ+ parts)

I would also guess that a non-trivial portion of the bisexual, questioning, and "other" categories sort out into straight / gay / lesbian in subsequent years.

[Blackhawk]

The data has to be complex, although I don't think the real numbers have ever changed much over time. Some are still figuring it out and may shift one way or another. Many (probably a big percentage of the change) are just no longer ashamed to admit it, including to themselves. Are there some who are just being trendy? Probably a few, but I doubt it's a significant number, and there are quite a few who won't realize it until later to balance them out.

I honestly think we'd all be better off if society reached a point at which we quit trying to come up with labels for sexualities and gender - there are too many subtle variations. People could just go to whomever they're attracted to without trying to figure out which label is the right one, and possibly even compromising their feelings to better fit in with their chosen label.

[El Guapo]

Not sure if I confused it, but I'm not trying to extrapolate to adult populations. Instead, I'm trying to see if they can get more data that would see if this pattern holds into the early 20s - the idea that "kids" are just figuring things out and trying to come to terms with whatever is.

I find this stuff interesting as well, though I should also add that I think it's mostly irrelevant to any public policy questions out of this related to gender care procedures (including the question of whether there's any proper public role at all). Someone who is questioning their sexuality in some form in middle school / high school is very different from someone their same age who has advanced to the point of asking a doctor about gender affirming care. So that some "questioning" people ultimately come to identify as straight or whatever else tells us little to nothing about the group of kids that are seeking gender affirming care from doctors.

[malchior]

Do you know anything else about the basis for the 1 in 10? That's generally what I have heard as well, and I always had the sense that it was in the nature of an educated guess, though it seemed vaguely plausible. I also imagine that it originated when there was considerably less public discourse about this subject in general, and especially about any sexuality other than straight or gay. (e.g., the BTQ+ parts)

I would also guess that a non-trivial portion of the bisexual, questioning, and "other" categories sort out into straight / gay / lesbian in subsequent years.

I don't know where it came from but I do have some sense that natural population level behaviors usually expresses in normal distributions. They might be truly normal or biased towards one end but 1 in 10 is very peculiar. It could have been chosen arbitrarily, a low accuracy study, or chosen intentionally in a way to minimize their existence. I don't know but I suspect that people didn't feel truly comfortable giving honest answers for a long time and we're only now getting 'good eyes' on the phenomena.

[Smoove_B]

I'm sure the domestic terrorists won't at all be emboldened by this:

Target is removing certain items from its stores and making other changes to its LGBTQ merchandise nationwide ahead of Pride Month, after an intense backlash from some customers including violent confrontations with its workers.

“Since introducing this year’s collection, we’ve experienced threats impacting our team members’ sense of safety and well-being while at work,” Target said in a statement Tuesday. ”Given these volatile circumstances, we are making adjustments to our plans, including removing items that have been at the center of the most significant confrontational behavior.”

...

The moves come as beer brand Bud Light is still grappling with a backlash from customers angered by its attempt to broaden its customer base by partnering with transgender influencer Dylan Mulvaney. Bud Light’s parent company said it will triple its marketing spending in the U.S. this summer as it tries to restore sales it lost after the brand partnered with the transgender influencer.

Target and other retailers including Walmart and H&M have been expanding their LGBTQ displays to celebrate Pride Month for roughly a decade. This year transgender issues — including gender-affirming health care and participation in sports — have been a divisive topic in state legislatures and the backlash has turned hostile.

I was at a meeting early last month where it was suggested that I might need to start "flexing my privilege" in public spaces. More and more, it feels likely.

[YellowKing]

Well if there's one thing I know works to discourage bullies, it's caving into their demands.

[Isgrimnur]

Well if there's one thing I know works to discourage bullies, it's caving into their demands.

[Daehawk]

Target is being stupid. You dont pander to the assholes of the world no matter what they threaten. You tell them if they dont like the product then they dont have to purchase it. Guess I wont go to Target again.

[waitingtoconnect]

We had the same issue locally. The nutters threatened to shoot up a drag Queen who read regularly at the local library and wanted the local council to stop it. When thr council said it’s a free country the nutters started attending all the council meetings and were posting where the local council members lived and where their kids went to school. When the cops said we don’t have the resources and the (blue) state went not our problem the bad guys won. The event was canceled.

Many children I know has had these questions. I think to an extent we have allowed kids to hide behind avatars in games like Minecraft; mostly due to the pandemic: and there you can be anything you want to be. I think that this has impacted on sense of self and how they are comfortable communicating.

[YellowKing]

Yet every school has a strict "no tolerance" bullying policy. We're teaching our kids it's never OK to bully, but if you do it anyway then you might just get your way!

[hepcat]

My coworker who I had mentioned numerous times around here is now filling his facebook page with attacks on "Tar-Gay" and how horrible they were to include anything that was related to the LGBQT community. That comes with numerous insulting posts about anyone from the LGBQT community.

We had an openly gay employee years ago. And I'm moderately sure that amongst all the companies he deals with on behalf of our company, there has to be at least 1 person from the LGBQT community. I really hope he's keeping his bigotry to himself and that he's NOT sharing his facebook page with any of our clients. I'd actually unfriend him if I could at this point, but it would end up making things very uncomfortable at work. As it is, I unfollowed his posts ages and just check in every now and again to see how horrible he's become.

Oh, one other thing I just thought of: the owner of the company has a daughter who came out as gay a few years ago. He's been very accepting of that and doesn't seem to care one bit as long as she's happy. I can't believe he's okay with our resident racist homophobe's social media output (they're friends as well on FB). I know his wife unfriended him over politics years ago.

[Unagi]

I'd actually unfriend him if I could at this point, but it would end up making things very uncomfortable at work.

Doesn't not unfriending him make you uncomfortable at work?

[hepcat]

He doesn't work out of the office, so I only deal with him every few days. And even then, we never discuss politics or other things that he knows I won't agree with him on. He's quite respectful in that regard.

I've mentioned before, but it's hard to reconcile the person I see on social media with the person who I talk to as he can be a very nice guy in person. I've known him for about 20 years and it's only after I saw his unfiltered views on things via social media that I became aware how awful he can be.

[YellowKing]

What's sad is I suspect many folks like this who might not agree with the LGBTQ+ lifestyle would have ordinarily kept it to themselves and went about their business. But right-wing media has continuously stoked the fires and turned them into emboldened angry crusaders.

[Skinypupy]

Totally normal stuff going on here.

Bomb threats at multiple Utah Target locations, specifically mentioning Pride displays.

MAGA’s have lost their goddamn minds.

[Smoove_B]

They're doing it because (1) it's working and (2) they're not experiencing any type of consequences for their gross behavior - legal or social.

[Daehawk]

Shame that as soon as they do it they dont suddenly get electrocuted.