Defining the 21st Century Republican Party?

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Jaymann
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Re: Defining the 21st Century Republican Party?

Post by Jaymann »

Apparently they are contemplating a name change to the Do Nothing Party.
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Re: Defining the 21st Century Republican Party?

Post by Pyperkub »

The commitment to anyone BUT their constituents is rather jawdropping:
Former Rep. Madison Cawthorn reportedly didn't hand over any of his office's constituent casework to his successor, Rep. Chuck Edwards, creating a mess for the freshman representative.

Members of Congress, outside of legislating, provide a series of services for members of their districts. This includes help obtaining government resources, casework, US Service Academy nominations, and more. 

And when a legislator departs Congress, they're expected to pass along any casework and ongoing constituent services information to their successor in order to maintain guidance and leadership for their constituents. The deadline for signing over the database of information was December 23, 2022.

Cawthorn, his successor said, failed to do that.

Edwards is a fellow Republican who dispatched Cawthorn in a primary.
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Re: Defining the 21st Century Republican Party?

Post by gilraen »

Edwards assumed that Cawthorn was doing anything resembling actual work and had any casework to hand over...
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Re: Defining the 21st Century Republican Party?

Post by Unagi »

I bet it’s more like they haven’t made copies of everything they want to use for leverage, so haven’t handed it over (nor care about constituents or the new guys success with helping them).
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Re: Defining the 21st Century Republican Party?

Post by LawBeefaroni »

"Transition of Power" is now "Sour Grapes".

Decency and generosity are now nearly dead.
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Re: Defining the 21st Century Republican Party?

Post by Pyperkub »

LawBeefaroni wrote: Tue Jan 10, 2023 5:15 pm "Transition of Power" is now "Sour Grapes".

Decency and generosity are now nearly dead.
Ditto actually doing the Job applied for in the Job Description which one swore an Oath to do faithfully.
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Re: Defining the 21st Century Republican Party?

Post by Kurth »

gilraen wrote: Tue Jan 10, 2023 1:43 pm Edwards assumed that Cawthorn was doing anything resembling actual work and had any casework to hand over...
This. 100% this.

Anyone who thinks Madison Cawthorn was doing any constituent casework has not been paying attention.
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Re: Defining the 21st Century Republican Party?

Post by LawBeefaroni »

Kurth wrote: Wed Jan 11, 2023 12:55 pm
gilraen wrote: Tue Jan 10, 2023 1:43 pm Edwards assumed that Cawthorn was doing anything resembling actual work and had any casework to hand over...
This. 100% this.

Anyone who thinks Madison Cawthorn was doing any constituent casework has not been paying attention.
Undoubtedly there was intake and Edwards' office is dealing with people calling asking what the status is of their previous request. Cawthorn may not have done any work but there was definitely work handed to his office that Edwards now has to deal with, with zero case background.
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Re: Defining the 21st Century Republican Party?

Post by El Guapo »

LawBeefaroni wrote: Wed Jan 11, 2023 1:08 pm
Kurth wrote: Wed Jan 11, 2023 12:55 pm
gilraen wrote: Tue Jan 10, 2023 1:43 pm Edwards assumed that Cawthorn was doing anything resembling actual work and had any casework to hand over...
This. 100% this.

Anyone who thinks Madison Cawthorn was doing any constituent casework has not been paying attention.
Undoubtedly there was intake and Edwards' office is dealing with people calling asking what the status is of their previous request. Cawthorn may not have done any work but there was definitely work handed to his office that Edwards now has to deal with, with zero case background.
The thing is that the amount of records related to constituent work is probably not zero. But you figure that a decent % of his 'constituent work' was corrupt and/or potentially illegal in nature. Like, helping the richest guy in your district advance his business in exchange for current or future favors is probably constituent work. On top of that, you figure that there's a good chance that Cawthorn and his people don't know where a lot of records are or what's in them. Plus, what does Cawthorne get out of providing records to his successor?

All of which adds up to Cawthorne providing nothing.
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Re: Defining the 21st Century Republican Party?

Post by LawBeefaroni »

El Guapo wrote: Wed Jan 11, 2023 1:22 pm
LawBeefaroni wrote: Wed Jan 11, 2023 1:08 pm
Kurth wrote: Wed Jan 11, 2023 12:55 pm
gilraen wrote: Tue Jan 10, 2023 1:43 pm Edwards assumed that Cawthorn was doing anything resembling actual work and had any casework to hand over...
This. 100% this.

Anyone who thinks Madison Cawthorn was doing any constituent casework has not been paying attention.
Undoubtedly there was intake and Edwards' office is dealing with people calling asking what the status is of their previous request. Cawthorn may not have done any work but there was definitely work handed to his office that Edwards now has to deal with, with zero case background.
The thing is that the amount of records related to constituent work is probably not zero. But you figure that a decent % of his 'constituent work' was corrupt and/or potentially illegal in nature. Like, helping the richest guy in your district advance his business in exchange for current or future favors is probably constituent work. On top of that, you figure that there's a good chance that Cawthorn and his people don't know where a lot of records are or what's in them. Plus, what does Cawthorne get out of providing records to his successor?

All of which adds up to Cawthorne providing nothing.
Right. I'm saying that he's providing nothing rather than having nothing to provide.
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Re: Defining the 21st Century Republican Party?

Post by El Guapo »

LawBeefaroni wrote: Wed Jan 11, 2023 1:26 pm
El Guapo wrote: Wed Jan 11, 2023 1:22 pm
LawBeefaroni wrote: Wed Jan 11, 2023 1:08 pm
Kurth wrote: Wed Jan 11, 2023 12:55 pm
gilraen wrote: Tue Jan 10, 2023 1:43 pm Edwards assumed that Cawthorn was doing anything resembling actual work and had any casework to hand over...
This. 100% this.

Anyone who thinks Madison Cawthorn was doing any constituent casework has not been paying attention.
Undoubtedly there was intake and Edwards' office is dealing with people calling asking what the status is of their previous request. Cawthorn may not have done any work but there was definitely work handed to his office that Edwards now has to deal with, with zero case background.
The thing is that the amount of records related to constituent work is probably not zero. But you figure that a decent % of his 'constituent work' was corrupt and/or potentially illegal in nature. Like, helping the richest guy in your district advance his business in exchange for current or future favors is probably constituent work. On top of that, you figure that there's a good chance that Cawthorn and his people don't know where a lot of records are or what's in them. Plus, what does Cawthorne get out of providing records to his successor?

All of which adds up to Cawthorne providing nothing.
Right. I'm saying that he's providing nothing rather than having nothing to provide.
Yes, I agree. I was more providing additional commentary to the thread than disagreeing with you.
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Re: Defining the 21st Century Republican Party?

Post by LawBeefaroni »

El Guapo wrote: Wed Jan 11, 2023 1:35 pm
LawBeefaroni wrote: Wed Jan 11, 2023 1:26 pm
El Guapo wrote: Wed Jan 11, 2023 1:22 pm
LawBeefaroni wrote: Wed Jan 11, 2023 1:08 pm
Kurth wrote: Wed Jan 11, 2023 12:55 pm
gilraen wrote: Tue Jan 10, 2023 1:43 pm Edwards assumed that Cawthorn was doing anything resembling actual work and had any casework to hand over...
This. 100% this.

Anyone who thinks Madison Cawthorn was doing any constituent casework has not been paying attention.
Undoubtedly there was intake and Edwards' office is dealing with people calling asking what the status is of their previous request. Cawthorn may not have done any work but there was definitely work handed to his office that Edwards now has to deal with, with zero case background.
The thing is that the amount of records related to constituent work is probably not zero. But you figure that a decent % of his 'constituent work' was corrupt and/or potentially illegal in nature. Like, helping the richest guy in your district advance his business in exchange for current or future favors is probably constituent work. On top of that, you figure that there's a good chance that Cawthorn and his people don't know where a lot of records are or what's in them. Plus, what does Cawthorne get out of providing records to his successor?

All of which adds up to Cawthorne providing nothing.
Right. I'm saying that he's providing nothing rather than having nothing to provide.
Yes, I agree. I was more providing additional commentary to the thread than disagreeing with you.
No you weren't!
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Re: Defining the 21st Century Republican Party?

Post by Kurth »

El Guapo wrote: Wed Jan 11, 2023 1:22 pm
LawBeefaroni wrote: Wed Jan 11, 2023 1:08 pm
Kurth wrote: Wed Jan 11, 2023 12:55 pm
gilraen wrote: Tue Jan 10, 2023 1:43 pm Edwards assumed that Cawthorn was doing anything resembling actual work and had any casework to hand over...
This. 100% this.

Anyone who thinks Madison Cawthorn was doing any constituent casework has not been paying attention.
Undoubtedly there was intake and Edwards' office is dealing with people calling asking what the status is of their previous request. Cawthorn may not have done any work but there was definitely work handed to his office that Edwards now has to deal with, with zero case background.
The thing is that the amount of records related to constituent work is probably not zero. But you figure that a decent % of his 'constituent work' was corrupt and/or potentially illegal in nature. Like, helping the richest guy in your district advance his business in exchange for current or future favors is probably constituent work. On top of that, you figure that there's a good chance that Cawthorn and his people don't know where a lot of records are or what's in them. Plus, what does Cawthorne get out of providing records to his successor?

All of which adds up to Cawthorne providing nothing.
I did an internship over two summers for my Representative when I was in college. I spent a bunch of that time in the District Office, and most of that time was dedicated to doing constituent work. That largely comprised fielding phone calls from constituents complaining about this or that policy and then drafting a letter responding to their complaints. When we weren't responding to complaints, we were dealing with constituents that had actual problems related to the federal government that we could help with (usually dealing with administrative issues with various agencies), arranging D.C. tours, assisting with nominations to the service academies, and scheduling the Rep. for appearances in the district at various schools and clubs and businesses.

All of that is what typically goes on in a normal, functioning District Office for a member of the House of Representatives.

I doubt much of that went on at Madison Cawthorn's office.
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Re: Defining the 21st Century Republican Party?

Post by El Guapo »

LawBeefaroni wrote: Wed Jan 11, 2023 1:39 pm
El Guapo wrote: Wed Jan 11, 2023 1:35 pm
LawBeefaroni wrote: Wed Jan 11, 2023 1:26 pm
El Guapo wrote: Wed Jan 11, 2023 1:22 pm
LawBeefaroni wrote: Wed Jan 11, 2023 1:08 pm
Kurth wrote: Wed Jan 11, 2023 12:55 pm
gilraen wrote: Tue Jan 10, 2023 1:43 pm Edwards assumed that Cawthorn was doing anything resembling actual work and had any casework to hand over...
This. 100% this.

Anyone who thinks Madison Cawthorn was doing any constituent casework has not been paying attention.
Undoubtedly there was intake and Edwards' office is dealing with people calling asking what the status is of their previous request. Cawthorn may not have done any work but there was definitely work handed to his office that Edwards now has to deal with, with zero case background.
The thing is that the amount of records related to constituent work is probably not zero. But you figure that a decent % of his 'constituent work' was corrupt and/or potentially illegal in nature. Like, helping the richest guy in your district advance his business in exchange for current or future favors is probably constituent work. On top of that, you figure that there's a good chance that Cawthorn and his people don't know where a lot of records are or what's in them. Plus, what does Cawthorne get out of providing records to his successor?

All of which adds up to Cawthorne providing nothing.
Right. I'm saying that he's providing nothing rather than having nothing to provide.
Yes, I agree. I was more providing additional commentary to the thread than disagreeing with you.
No you weren't!
Yes I was!
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Re: Defining the 21st Century Republican Party?

Post by El Guapo »

Kurth wrote: Wed Jan 11, 2023 2:11 pm
El Guapo wrote: Wed Jan 11, 2023 1:22 pm
LawBeefaroni wrote: Wed Jan 11, 2023 1:08 pm
Kurth wrote: Wed Jan 11, 2023 12:55 pm
gilraen wrote: Tue Jan 10, 2023 1:43 pm Edwards assumed that Cawthorn was doing anything resembling actual work and had any casework to hand over...
This. 100% this.

Anyone who thinks Madison Cawthorn was doing any constituent casework has not been paying attention.
Undoubtedly there was intake and Edwards' office is dealing with people calling asking what the status is of their previous request. Cawthorn may not have done any work but there was definitely work handed to his office that Edwards now has to deal with, with zero case background.
The thing is that the amount of records related to constituent work is probably not zero. But you figure that a decent % of his 'constituent work' was corrupt and/or potentially illegal in nature. Like, helping the richest guy in your district advance his business in exchange for current or future favors is probably constituent work. On top of that, you figure that there's a good chance that Cawthorn and his people don't know where a lot of records are or what's in them. Plus, what does Cawthorne get out of providing records to his successor?

All of which adds up to Cawthorne providing nothing.
I did an internship over two summers for my Representative when I was in college. I spent a bunch of that time in the District Office, and most of that time was dedicated to doing constituent work. That largely comprised fielding phone calls from constituents complaining about this or that policy and then drafting a letter responding to their complaints. When we weren't responding to complaints, we were dealing with constituents that had actual problems related to the federal government that we could help with (usually dealing with administrative issues with various agencies), arranging D.C. tours, assisting with nominations to the service academies, and scheduling the Rep. for appearances in the district at various schools and clubs and businesses.

All of that is what typically goes on in a normal, functioning District Office for a member of the House of Representatives.

I doubt much of that went on at Madison Cawthorn's office.
Yeah, but there may have been stuff like "Memo to Rep. Cawthorne: CEO Smith called. Wants to know the status of [amendment flagrantly favoring their business], Told him we are doing all we can. He wants a callback from you."
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Re: Defining the 21st Century Republican Party?

Post by Kurth »

Yeah, maybe. I just never got the feeling that was Cawthorn's thing. Even flagrantly illegal practices like greasing the wheels for CEO constituents actually involves some level of work. Never seemed like something that idiot was the least bit interested in.
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Re: Defining the 21st Century Republican Party?

Post by Pyperkub »

El Guapo wrote: Wed Jan 11, 2023 1:22 pm
LawBeefaroni wrote: Wed Jan 11, 2023 1:08 pm
Kurth wrote: Wed Jan 11, 2023 12:55 pm
gilraen wrote: Tue Jan 10, 2023 1:43 pm Edwards assumed that Cawthorn was doing anything resembling actual work and had any casework to hand over...
This. 100% this.

Anyone who thinks Madison Cawthorn was doing any constituent casework has not been paying attention.
Undoubtedly there was intake and Edwards' office is dealing with people calling asking what the status is of their previous request. Cawthorn may not have done any work but there was definitely work handed to his office that Edwards now has to deal with, with zero case background.
The thing is that the amount of records related to constituent work is probably not zero. But you figure that a decent % of his 'constituent work' was corrupt and/or potentially illegal in nature. Like, helping the richest guy in your district advance his business in exchange for current or future favors is probably constituent work. On top of that, you figure that there's a good chance that Cawthorn and his people don't know where a lot of records are or what's in them. Plus, what does Cawthorne get out of providing records to his successor?

All of which adds up to Cawthorne providing nothing.
While I do think he is a card-carrying member of the in-it-for-myself-only wave of performative assholes via legal or illegal/unethical means gravitating to the GOP grifter machines, sometimes Constituent work is a nothingburger/administrivia such as setting up Constituent passes for tours of the White House.
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Re: Defining the 21st Century Republican Party?

Post by Smoove_B »

I did not realize the GOP was going to come out swinging demanding the full exoneration of gas stoves. I guess I should have known given everything else that's been going on the last 5+ years. I feel for sure now that parody is dead.
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Re: Defining the 21st Century Republican Party?

Post by coopasonic »

Will you really need a gas stove once we eliminate beef?
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Re: Defining the 21st Century Republican Party?

Post by Skinypupy »

Smoove_B wrote: Wed Jan 11, 2023 4:09 pm I did not realize the GOP was going to come out swinging demanding the full exoneration of gas stoves. I guess I should have known given everything else that's been going on the last 5+ years. I feel for sure now that parody is dead.
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Re: Defining the 21st Century Republican Party?

Post by malchior »

It's true but this gas stove thing is SO DUMB as well. It's the specter of government overreach that makes for easy targets.
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Re: Defining the 21st Century Republican Party?

Post by YellowKing »

The gas stove kerfluffle is ridiculous, but at the same time I'm pretty sure my wife would kill the first person who tried to take away her gas range. You don't fuck with the woman's cooking tools.
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Re: Defining the 21st Century Republican Party?

Post by stessier »

YellowKing wrote: Wed Jan 11, 2023 7:21 pm The gas stove kerfluffle is ridiculous, but at the same time I'm pretty sure my wife would kill the first person who tried to take away her gas range. You don't fuck with the woman's cooking tools.
She needs to be exposed to induction.
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Re: Defining the 21st Century Republican Party?

Post by Smoove_B »

Whoa, whoa - this is a family forum!

But seriously, our new policies seem to follow what people want irrespective of the impacts. Household paint that's been infused with lead and DDT will be making a big comeback in 2024 - you heard it here first!
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Re: Defining the 21st Century Republican Party?

Post by Unagi »

Poor analogy, IMO.

Consumers didn’t actually ‘want’ those things in paint.
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Re: Defining the 21st Century Republican Party?

Post by Smoove_B »

Unagi wrote: Wed Jan 11, 2023 7:34 pm Consumers didn’t actually ‘want’ those things in paint.
The hell they didn't! People paid extra to get leaded paint - its such a superior product. Brighter colors, resistant to mildew, lasts longer in high-traffic areas. It was better than anything else available. It's also why they still use it on boats, bridges and to paint medians and shoulder strips on roads. It's awesome. And deadly. But still awesome!
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Re: Defining the 21st Century Republican Party?

Post by malchior »

I get that there are health risks but everything I've seen indicates it's mostly tied to poor ventilation. Sounds like a good case for pushing for product improvements/updates to code. A wholesale ban which I suspect will be deeply unpopular is politically unwise. I'm all for appropriate regulation but they need to make a damn good case and this is the sort of the wrong thing to focus on when we have much bigger problems.
stessier wrote: Wed Jan 11, 2023 7:24 pm
YellowKing wrote: Wed Jan 11, 2023 7:21 pm The gas stove kerfluffle is ridiculous, but at the same time I'm pretty sure my wife would kill the first person who tried to take away her gas range. You don't fuck with the woman's cooking tools.
She needs to be exposed to induction.
Induction is really good but telling people they need to potentially spend thousands of dollars to upgrade their electrical system the next time they have to replace a stove isn't going to work for many people.
Last edited by malchior on Wed Jan 11, 2023 8:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Defining the 21st Century Republican Party?

Post by Smoove_B »

We do have bigger problems - a lack of indoor air quality standards for both residential and occupational settings. I wonder if improving indoor air quality across the boards would have an impact on anything else? It doesn't matter though because it's just another way big government is trying to regulate and restrict your RIGHTS as an AMERICAN.

Guarantee it's coming via the GOP.
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Re: Defining the 21st Century Republican Party?

Post by malchior »

Smoove_B wrote: Wed Jan 11, 2023 8:38 pm We do have bigger problems - a lack of indoor air quality standards for both residential and occupational settings. I wonder if improving indoor air quality across the boards would have an impact on anything else? It doesn't matter though because it's just another way big government is trying to regulate and restrict your RIGHTS as an AMERICAN.
FWIW I get where this is coming from but this is still the worst sort of policy. Government swinging in with a huge hammer out of nowhere. The reaction won't only revolve around these sort of rights of Americans discussions. People are having the same reaction to similar discussions in Europe right now even where it has added significance due to the energy/Russia national security overlaps there. This is the sort of thing you need to bend people towards.
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Re: Defining the 21st Century Republican Party?

Post by Holman »

Have we even heard any details of the "ban" that's coming?

To hear the GOP tell it, Joe Biden is sending the Gestapo to rip apart Grandma's kitchen right in the middle of this weekend's Sunday cooking.

What's far more likely is something like a ban on gas stoves in new construction that takes effect like three years from now, and then a voluntary program of subsidized gas-stove removal and replacement over the next fifteen years. The horror!!
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Re: Defining the 21st Century Republican Party?

Post by malchior »

Holman wrote: Wed Jan 11, 2023 8:49 pm Have we even heard any details of the "ban" that's coming?

To hear the GOP tell it, Joe Biden is sending the Gestapo to rip apart Grandma's kitchen right in the middle of this weekend's Sunday cooking.

What's far more likely is something like a ban on gas stoves in new construction that takes effect like three years from now, and then a voluntary program of subsidized gas-stove removal and replacement over the next fifteen years. The horror!!
That's the unknown but NY has proposed a gas stove ban already which was more predicated on 'green' concerns. It is along the lines you mention and even then that has led to a fairly big outcry.
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Re: Defining the 21st Century Republican Party?

Post by Kurth »

Holman wrote: Wed Jan 11, 2023 8:49 pm Have we even heard any details of the "ban" that's coming?

To hear the GOP tell it, Joe Biden is sending the Gestapo to rip apart Grandma's kitchen right in the middle of this weekend's Sunday cooking.

What's far more likely is something like a ban on gas stoves in new construction that takes effect like three years from now, and then a voluntary program of subsidized gas-stove removal and replacement over the next fifteen years. The horror!!
Isn't this already policy in California?
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Re: Defining the 21st Century Republican Party?

Post by Carpet_pissr »

stessier wrote: Wed Jan 11, 2023 7:24 pm
YellowKing wrote: Wed Jan 11, 2023 7:21 pm The gas stove kerfluffle is ridiculous, but at the same time I'm pretty sure my wife would kill the first person who tried to take away her gas range. You don't fuck with the woman's cooking tools.
She needs to be exposed to induction.
Anecdotally, I’ve cooked a lot of meals on both gas and induction (10+ years each, and hundreds of dinners for 5+) and much prefer COOKING with gas, but much prefer the non-cooking benes of induction like not heating my kitchen in the middle of summer, and the almost absurd speed.

I don’t remember what the energy cost differences are, but I suspect induction is probably much cheaper (like LED vs incandescent). Also probably offset by the likelihood of having to install/run heavier duty electrical to be able to run all your induction burners at full power.

When I was trying to decide which to go with (range area had both gas and electric hookups when we moved into current house), I decided to go induction but didn’t know about or even consider indoor air quality impacts of gas.

Pretty sure we discussed this at length here somewhere, maybe in my ‘cool shit/house stuff’ thread (the tech, not the ‘political/health’ implications).
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Re: Defining the 21st Century Republican Party?

Post by stessier »

malchior wrote: Wed Jan 11, 2023 8:34 pm
stessier wrote: Wed Jan 11, 2023 7:24 pm
YellowKing wrote: Wed Jan 11, 2023 7:21 pm The gas stove kerfluffle is ridiculous, but at the same time I'm pretty sure my wife would kill the first person who tried to take away her gas range. You don't fuck with the woman's cooking tools.
She needs to be exposed to induction.
Induction is really good but telling people they need to potentially spend thousands of dollars to upgrade their electrical system the next time they have to replace a stove isn't going to work for many people.
Good thing I didn't say that.
Carpet_pissr wrote: Thu Jan 12, 2023 8:59 am
stessier wrote: Wed Jan 11, 2023 7:24 pm
YellowKing wrote: Wed Jan 11, 2023 7:21 pm The gas stove kerfluffle is ridiculous, but at the same time I'm pretty sure my wife would kill the first person who tried to take away her gas range. You don't fuck with the woman's cooking tools.
She needs to be exposed to induction.
Anecdotally, I’ve cooked a lot of meals on both gas and induction (10+ years each, and hundreds of dinners for 5+) and much prefer COOKING with gas, but much prefer the non-cooking benes of induction like not heating my kitchen in the middle of summer, and the almost absurd speed.

I don’t remember what the energy cost differences are, but I suspect induction is probably much cheaper (like LED vs incandescent). Also probably offset by the likelihood of having to install/run heavier duty electrical to be able to run all your induction burners at full power.

When I was trying to decide which to go with (range area had both gas and electric hookups when we moved into current house), I decided to go induction but didn’t know about or even consider indoor air quality impacts of gas.

Pretty sure we discussed this at length here somewhere, maybe in my ‘cool shit/house stuff’ thread (the tech, not the ‘political/health’ implications).
The hook-ups are a normal 240V/50amp circuit. It's not like it takes some space age level of power.

As for policy, we should definitely be discouraging if not out right banning any new residential natural gas pipelines. They are the leading source of gas leaks that are significantly contributing to global warming. Improving indoor air quality is just a side benefit.
I require a reminder as to why raining arcane destruction is not an appropriate response to all of life's indignities. - Vaarsuvius
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Re: Defining the 21st Century Republican Party?

Post by malchior »

stessier wrote: Thu Jan 12, 2023 10:36 am
malchior wrote: Wed Jan 11, 2023 8:34 pm
stessier wrote: Wed Jan 11, 2023 7:24 pm
YellowKing wrote: Wed Jan 11, 2023 7:21 pm The gas stove kerfluffle is ridiculous, but at the same time I'm pretty sure my wife would kill the first person who tried to take away her gas range. You don't fuck with the woman's cooking tools.
She needs to be exposed to induction.
Induction is really good but telling people they need to potentially spend thousands of dollars to upgrade their electrical system the next time they have to replace a stove isn't going to work for many people.

Good thing I didn't say that.
Fair enough but it is just implicit in my mind.
The hook-ups are a normal 240V/50amp circuit. It's not like it takes some space age level of power.
This steps over a lot. It's not the tech - it's the volume of infrastructure involved. If gas stoves are banned then you have to over time add the circuits which some houses won't be able to do cheaply. You also just don't remove the stove, you'll have to cap or remove the existing gas plumbing - which may still leak and not solve the problem. We're also butting up against necessary improvements to the grid for electrification of vehicles. We may have to pick one over the other in the near-term. This type of stuff sounds great on a post card but it's not often so simple.
As for policy, we should definitely be discouraging if not out right banning any new residential natural gas pipelines. They are the leading source of gas leaks that are significantly contributing to global warming. Improving indoor air quality is just a side benefit.
FWIW the science behinds this claim comes from a single study of 53 homes in California - many in rentals the researchers were able to secure. It may be representative but results from a single state require a bit of skepticism about the results. Even if accurate then the total pollution produced by all gas stoves in the US aggregated for the year is on the order of what the US produces every 3.5 hours in the United States. Not the biggest rock that needs to be moved by any means.

I'm not saying a policy shift may not be needed but this is big enough bite that you have to do it at the right pace with the right information or you'll see what we saw here. A sharp snapback against it.
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Re: Defining the 21st Century Republican Party?

Post by stessier »

malchior wrote: Thu Jan 12, 2023 11:01 am
stessier wrote: Thu Jan 12, 2023 10:36 am
malchior wrote: Wed Jan 11, 2023 8:34 pm
stessier wrote: Wed Jan 11, 2023 7:24 pm
YellowKing wrote: Wed Jan 11, 2023 7:21 pm The gas stove kerfluffle is ridiculous, but at the same time I'm pretty sure my wife would kill the first person who tried to take away her gas range. You don't fuck with the woman's cooking tools.
She needs to be exposed to induction.
Induction is really good but telling people they need to potentially spend thousands of dollars to upgrade their electrical system the next time they have to replace a stove isn't going to work for many people.

Good thing I didn't say that.
Fair enough but it is just implicit in my mind. Especially since below you advocate for policy that has real costs that have to weighed against the benefit.
Yeah, but I specifically didn't there. I was commenting on YK's wife fighting to the death for gas and postulating that her exposure to induction cooking would change her mind. That's it. I even snipped it so that's all that I was commenting on.
The hook-ups are a normal 240V/50amp circuit. It's not like it takes some space age level of power.
This steps over a lot. It's not the tech - it's the volume of infrastructure involved. If gas stoves are banned then you have to over time add the circuits which some houses won't be able to do cheaply. You also just don't remove the stove, you'll have to cap or remove the existing gas plumbing - which may still leak and not solve the problem. We're also butting up against necessary improvements to the grid for electrification of vehicles. We may have to pick one over the other in the near-term. This type of stuff sounds great on a post card but it's not often so simple.
I really don't know what you are arguing here. I never said we should retrofit anything.
As for policy, we should definitely be discouraging if not out right banning any new residential natural gas pipelines. They are the leading source of gas leaks that are significantly contributing to global warming. Improving indoor air quality is just a side benefit.
FWIW the science behinds this claim comes from a single study of 53 homes in California - many in rentals the researchers were able to secure. It may be representative but results from a single state require a bit of skepticism about the results. Even if accurate then the total pollution produced by all gas stoves in the US aggregated for the year is on the order of what the US produces every 3.5 hours in the United States. Not the biggest rock that needs to be moved by any means.

I'm not saying a policy shift may not be needed but this is big enough bite that you have to do it at the right pace with the right information or you'll see what we saw here. A sharp snapback against it.
I'm not sure which part of my comment you are debating against, but Natural Gas pipeline leaks are not based on one study. They are endemic and maps of high levels of natural gas where there shouldn't be any are pretty easy to find. For that reason, NEW residential gas pipelines should be discouraged if not outright banned. The new houses would then be built with the necessary electrical wiring up front. And the grid will adapt. And improving indoor air quality would be a side benefit.
I require a reminder as to why raining arcane destruction is not an appropriate response to all of life's indignities. - Vaarsuvius
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Re: Defining the 21st Century Republican Party?

Post by malchior »

stessier wrote: Thu Jan 12, 2023 11:13 amI really don't know what you are arguing here. I never said we should retrofit anything.
I thought you were defending the bigger policy by saying it's just a circuit. You seem to be specifically saying just limit residential natural gas expansion. Got it.
I'm not sure which part of my comment you are debating against, but Natural Gas pipeline leaks are not based on one study.
Sure. There is a big gap here though. It is one thing to talk about natural gas pipelines and another to specify residential natural gas pipelines. Which I now get is what you're driving at here.

When you said residential level pipelines are a leading source of gas leaks...that's almost certainly not true unless glommed into "pipeline" where it'd be a fairly small percentage of all pipeline leaks. Still the biggest portion of leaks are at the source with the pipeline leaks probably probably a close second subject to measurement error/definitions where the source ends and pipeline begins and all that jazz. Residential pipelines and in-home stoves haven't really been measured until recently because there has been no regulatory or profit reason to do so.
They are endemic and maps of high levels of natural gas where there should be any are pretty easy to find. For that reason, NEW residential gas pipelines should be discouraged if not outright banned. The new houses would then be built with the necessary electrical wiring up front. And the grid will adapt. And improving indoor air quality would be a side benefit.
To be clear where I'm referring to a single study, that was specifically around residential natural gas pipelines and stoves published back in April and lead to a lot of kvetching in the energy community. The impact was on the order of maybe 2-4% of all gas leaks. Also, I wouldn't just assume the grid will adapt. At scale we might need to make choices on policy.
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Re: Defining the 21st Century Republican Party?

Post by Kurth »

Have I not been paying attention, or is this issue regarding regulating residential natural gas exploding out of nowhere? I knew CA was moving to limit natural gas appliances over time, but since when is this leading national news? Did something happen that caused this issue to jump to the forefront? It seems like such small ball to me, and with so many other important issues needing to be addressed, why is everyone all of a sudden debating the pros and cons of residential natural gas?

Did someone try to introduce a federal bill or something? Did some new report come out that’s capturing everyone’s attention?
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Re: Defining the 21st Century Republican Party?

Post by Grifman »

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Re: Defining the 21st Century Republican Party?

Post by Smoove_B »

Did someone try to introduce a federal bill or something? Did some new report come out that’s capturing everyone’s attention?
Gas stoves are the new light bulb. They're providing a relatable (SEE: YK's wife) argument for the average American at how the Democrats are going to change the fundamental existence of life as we know it - unless the GOP stops them. Not only are they coming for your gas stove but they want to limit access to GREEN (SEE: Ohio) energy, making it harder to build homes.

Again, this goes back to how the GOP needs a boogeyman. Last week (or was it this week?) they were going after the IRS because so many Americans are being raided by over-zealous IRS agents, looking to squeeze them for every last penny. Next it'll be those crazy environmentalists that are trying to limit your access to natural gas.

There were a few politicians that were Tweeting out things (like Ted Cruz), whipping up the general public (or at least Twitter followers) and I'm guessing Tucker Carlson did a piece on it as well.

The party of outrage politics.
Maybe next year, maybe no go
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