[Miniatures] Painting tips and progress reports (with pics!)

[YellowKing]

Putting these in spoiler tags in case anyone is super worried about a Frosthaven locked class reveal (Snowflake):

Spoiler:

These aren't great pics but we've already discussed how hard it is to capture how a mini actually looks with a phone camera. If you think the face looks a bit wonky, I agree - it's the mini. Some of the Frosthaven minis are not....great and this thing looks like a muppet. However, if you look at the torso section I think you can get a feel for the two-tone contrast blending.

I'm not super happy with the thick white coat either, but covering white over black primer is a chore. If I had to do it all over again I think this would have been better off with a white or at least light gray primer. Still, this was just a job to get it to the table quickly so it was worthy of a little experimentation.

[baelthazar]

I think your example look better than NinJon's. I watched his video again and I really did not like the effect that he got in comparison to what I can get with zenithal or slapchop. But I also think that it has to do with how dark the models turn out to be in that technique - you are supposed to leave black which is a bit too much for my taste. His rabbit samurai (Usagi?) is better, but still very very dark. Yours has less black left, and so I like that effect much better.

For me, I don't know if it would save much time. I tend to be ok at slapping down contrast on zenithal primed stuff, then focus the rest of an hour or so on highlights. That said, I realize I have been spending my last months painting Final Girl models which are TINY compared to the normal board game model (they come up to about the waist of a GW Primaris space marine). So I don't know if that takes longer or less time.

[YellowKing]

Second Frosthaven locked class mini (hence the spoiler tags). I was much happier with this one than the last.

I started out trying the same method (black primer, contrasting halves) but I just found the black primer so dark I was losing all the detail. So I switched gears and dry brushed him with a light gray, then painted the highlights.

It wound up with a neat kind of animated effect where the black primer provided an outline for all the numerous details. And the gray primer really helped me get some brighter areas and lighten up the whole figure. May be my go to technique from now on.

Spoiler:

[hentzau]

I really don't think the slapchop method is for me. I've had exactly one mini turn out good using this method, and it was a larger Marvel Crisis Protocol mini I did for fun...a palette cleanser, as it were. Most of my more realistic styled 28mm minis just turn out looking like muddied crap. I think it's because on the smaller figs I can't get a proper midtone established and there just aren't enough folds and the like to make a difference. This latest model I tried I just looks terrible. Very frustrating. You see people getting great results from it, but 9 times out of 10 they're Warhammer or MCP or Fallout minis which are all huge compared to what I'm painting.

So back into the stripper jar these guys go, then back back to my go to wraithbone.

[baelthazar]

I really don't think the slapchop method is for me. I've had exactly one mini turn out good using this method, and it was a larger Marvel Crisis Protocol mini I did for fun...a palette cleanser, as it were. Most of my more realistic styled 28mm minis just turn out looking like muddied crap. I think it's because on the smaller figs I can't get a proper midtone established and there just aren't enough folds and the like to make a difference. This latest model I tried I just looks terrible. Very frustrating. You see people getting great results from it, but 9 times out of 10 they're Warhammer or MCP or Fallout minis which are all huge compared to what I'm painting.

So back into the stripper jar these guys go, then back back to my go to wraithbone.

I think a zenithal works better than slapchop on smaller minis. You just have to be careful and be lighter handed on the downwards grey-white spray. Actually, for small minis I use a basecoat of black and only a one top coat (from 70-90 degrees above) of Golden's Titan Buff. It provides a nice and warmer deviation and almost perfectly matches wraithbone base.

For slapchop you have to have adequate space to drybrush, so smaller stuff doesn't always make that easy.

[Blackhawk]

The smaller the mini, the less the folds and shapes create their own shadows, and the more they need to be manually emphasized. But the ones I've used slapchop + contrast on classic 25mm Ral Partha pieces (I have a bunch of old minis stored to use for testing new techniques.)

[hentzau]

Gave slapchop a final go. Stripped down the figures and primed black again, then took baelthezar’s advice and did a light spray zenethal with Wraithbone, then a drybrush of white. Fairly pleased with the final results.

[Smoove_B]

I think that's what is still an issue for me - how inconsistent the Contrast paints are. Even my Army Painter Speed paints (both are 1.0) have inconsistent results. Sometimes they look amazing. Other times (same color) looks like hell. I keep going between it's the mini, it's me not shaking it enough to my skill. When I see what other painters are doing on Youtube, I honestly just don't even know what to make of it sometimes.

[Blackhawk]

I know that the 'pros' who use these techniques have notes (or good memories) for which contrast paints are thicker or thinner, and adjust accordingly (like using some contrast medium to thin the overly-thick ones.) I actually had decent results with slapchop and Scale75 Instant Colors, something I've rarely been able to use for anything else.

One trick I read about somewhere that I used was that, after the drybrushing, I used some dense white (I used a tube acrylic) and manually brushed pure white highlights onto the very brightest edges to build the contrast even more.

[baelthazar]

Hentzau, those look great! I am happy my suggestion worked. With minis that small, it is hard to get the contrast to stand out.

I think that's what is still an issue for me - how inconsistent the Contrast paints are. Even my Army Painter Speed paints (both are 1.0) have inconsistent results. Sometimes they look amazing. Other times (same color) looks like hell. I keep going between it's the mini, it's me not shaking it enough to my skill. When I see what other painters are doing on Youtube, I honestly just don't even know what to make of it sometimes.

This is a real problem. One thing I did was buy metal balls for all my contrast paint. It's a bit criminal that they didn't put those in the pots (although GW/Citadel never does). I find that the darker "cooler" colors are the worst offenders - the dark blues, purples, and browns. Oddly, the colors that tend to be finicky in regular model paint are better in contrast - red and yellow in particular. You have to be sparing with black, because it also tends to overwhelm the model. I like gray better.

Lately I have been using the Monolith transparent paints and they are very good. Where they have the leg up on citadel is that you can blend the colors (which is not easy with contrast paints).

[YellowKing]

I feel like we've talked about this somewhere in this thread but I had a horrible experience with the Army Painter Black Spray Primer.

I've never had a problem with the other colors (I've used flesh, white, and gray), but the black just completely flaked off. I'm not sure if it was the paint itself or maybe it was too humid when I sprayed them, but whatever the case it was like painting over powder instead of primer.

These are minis for the Legends of Sleepy Hollow game so I wasn't super invested in them, so I just rolled with it vs stripping and repainting, but I'll be staying away from that particular brand of black primer from now on.

[Malificent]

I feel like we've talked about this somewhere in this thread but I had a horrible experience with the Army Painter Black Spray Primer.

I've never had a problem with the other colors (I've used flesh, white, and gray), but the black just completely flaked off. I'm not sure if it was the paint itself or maybe it was too humid when I sprayed them, but whatever the case it was like painting over powder instead of primer.

These are minis for the Legends of Sleepy Hollow game so I wasn't super invested in them, so I just rolled with it vs stripping and repainting, but I'll be staying away from that particular brand of black primer from now on.

I'm with you there - Army Painter primer (in both colors) has been fidgety and unreliable for me, both in how it applies but also in the actual can use. Citadel's primer is way overpriced, but one of the things I used to love about it was that in addition to always applying smoothly, the can had a large smooth button that made it easy to use. I need to get my airbrush set back up again so I can do priming with that. Now to figure out garage space...

[Smoove_B]

Lately I have been using the Monolith transparent paints and they are very good. Where they have the leg up on citadel is that you can blend the colors (which is not easy with contrast paints).

I'll take a look at those. I had also been eying up paints in the Pro Acryl line. There's like 3 or 4 YTers that I regularly watch that have repeatedly commented how much they like them. I'm not foolish enough to believe my issues are all about the paints, but I am always looking for different options.

And yeah, I've been adding mixing balls to my stuff for a while now. I even picked up a vortex mixer to try and help.

[Malificent]

Lately I have been using the Monolith transparent paints and they are very good. Where they have the leg up on citadel is that you can blend the colors (which is not easy with contrast paints).

I'll take a look at those. I had also been eying up paints in the Pro Acryl line. There's like 3 or 4 YTers that I regularly watch that have repeatedly commented how much they like them. I'm not foolish enough to believe my issues are all about the paints, but I am always looking for different options.

And yeah, I've been adding mixing balls to my stuff for a while now. I even picked up a vortex mixer to try and help.

I have a bunch of the Pro Acryl stuff and love them. I really need to break down and get their full line and archive/sell a bunch of Vallejo paints that I rarely use.

[Blackhawk]

This is a real problem. One thing I did was buy metal balls for all my contrast paint.

Make sure you're buying shaker balls specifically intended for that kind of use. Regular ball bearings/BBs won't cut it, as they can oxidize/corrode, which can really screw up the paint.

[Blackhawk]

I feel like we've talked about this somewhere in this thread but I had a horrible experience with the Army Painter Black Spray Primer.

I've never had a problem with the other colors (I've used flesh, white, and gray), but the black just completely flaked off. I'm not sure if it was the paint itself or maybe it was too humid when I sprayed them, but whatever the case it was like painting over powder instead of primer.

I'm with you there - Army Painter primer (in both colors) has been fidgety and unreliable for me, both in how it applies but also in the actual can use.

Weird, AP has been my #1 go-to for rattle-can primer for more than a decade, and I've never had the issue. I wonder if they've changed the formulation.

The things that I know can cause issues with AP (or any primer)(or any spray paint):

The miniature not thoroughly washed
The miniature not thoroughly rinsed
The miniature not thoroughly dried
The miniature being handled too much after washing (skin oils)

Humidity
Temperature
Spray distance
Not enough shaking
The paint simply going bad (spray paint has an expiration date - they just don't want you to know what it is so that they don't leave it on the shelves, so they usually encode it.)

[baelthazar]

This is a real problem. One thing I did was buy metal balls for all my contrast paint.

Make sure you're buying shaker balls specifically intended for that kind of use. Regular ball bearings/BBs won't cut it, as they can oxidize/corrode, which can really screw up the paint.

I got the Army Painter ones. Hopefully they last.

[Blackhawk]

This is a real problem. One thing I did was buy metal balls for all my contrast paint.

Make sure you're buying shaker balls specifically intended for that kind of use. Regular ball bearings/BBs won't cut it, as they can oxidize/corrode, which can really screw up the paint.

I got the Army Painter ones. Hopefully they last.

They're fine. I usually get them from there or Green Stuff Wold. As long as they're made for paint, they're fine.

[Smoove_B]

You've heard of SlapChop, but have you tried SmashChop?

[Blackhawk]

You've heard of SlapChop, but have you tried SmashChop?

I haven not. I am, however, familiar with Chap Hop.

[YellowKing]

Just a quick update on my bad Army Painter black primer experience. I used the same can of primer for my Oathsworn minis and they came out perfect. So it was either the humidity that day or some reaction to the plastic on the other minis. I'm leaning more towards the weather.

I'm quite relieved, as I'd never had a bad experience with their spray primers before and wasn't keen to start looking for another brand.

[Blackhawk]

The paint flaking off could also have been caused by a mini that wasn't washed. The mold release compound leaves residue, and if a mini has a lot on it, it can prevent anything from sticking. It's like coating it in oil.

[YellowKing]

I always wash my minis so who knows what was up with these. They were from Legends of Sleepy Hollow and that game was a trainwreck from the get-go - KS that took years to deliver, terrible rulebook that had to be completely reissued, etc. I got it dirt cheap at GenCon which is the only reason I own it, and to be fair they did issue an errata pack that addressed most of the issues, but it would not surprise me if their minis were made out of melted down Dollar Tree crayons.

[baelthazar]

I always wash my minis so who knows what was up with these. They were from Legends of Sleepy Hollow and that game was a trainwreck from the get-go - KS that took years to deliver, terrible rulebook that had to be completely reissued, etc. I got it dirt cheap at GenCon which is the only reason I own it, and to be fair they did issue an errata pack that addressed most of the issues, but it would not surprise me if their minis were made out of melted down Dollar Tree crayons.

I had that happen with a few minis and I wonder if sometimes - even with washing - if some manufacturers use different stuff or too much. I also had a WEIRD thing happen with the Altar Quest minis where my primer would "bead up" the paint as it was put on them (almost like a water phobic layer). It was only them and I was using GW spray contrast primers (wraithbone).

My other issue was with Stynylrez primers shot from an airbrush onto the large Tainted Grail "statues." I was doing an at-home Sundrop style and the primer flaked off in places when I was drybrushing. I attribute this to me not being able to wash some of the deeper nooks and crannies of those complicated minis, but it never happened again with Vallejo primer. I also alway got a LOT more dried primer clogging in my airbrush with Stynylrez.

[Blackhawk]

The material also matters. Polystyrene vs PVC vs resin vs metal vs ?. Some materials just don't work well with some paints. Others work fine, but end up coated with different materials during production.

Resin tends to be the hardest to clean. I've gotten by with water, soap, and a soft tooth brush. Others recommend a soak in some sort of solvent (Simple Green is popular, although I prefer La's Totally Awesome.)

[Smoove_B]

So I'm messing around a bit with painting again (truly, it's evergreen) and I saw a random Youtuber slather Nuln oil over a primed mini first. Then after that dried, they applied a contrast color over it. That felt...backwards to me, but maybe I'm missing something? He didn't explain why he did it in that order and the best I can come up with is that the contrast paint finishes "brighter" because you're not putting the Nuln oil over the top when you're finished?

This person suggests it reduces the blotchy issue I've seen with contrast paints over white-ish priming.

Anyone have any practical thoughts before I do it and then get frustrated?

[Zarathud]

I wasn't impressed with the Citadel contrast paints unless the model has a lot of texture. It's possible a Nuln Oil undercoat adds in some built-in shading and helps the paint stay on the highlights.

I have been very happy with the Army Painter SpeedPaint line.

[baelthazar]

I wasn't impressed with the Citadel contrast paints unless the model has a lot of texture. It's possible a Nuln Oil undercoat adds in some built-in shading and helps the paint stay on the highlights.

I have been very happy with the Army Painter SpeedPaint line.

Yes - they are not great on areas of the model that are smoother. I think faces, arms, legs, and chests all look blotchy when contrast paint is applied. I also don't apply it on top of their special colors. I always use a black primer first, Vallejo, then do zenithal (or slapchop) of Golden's Titan Buff on top. I find the black "shading" of the Zenithal counters the blotchy aspect of the Contrast paint (maybe the same effect the Nuln Oil is having here, like a poor man's slapchop?).

I also almost always do highlights on my Contrasts. I know that contradicts their utility as "speed paints" but it looks better. Sometimes I go easy with drybrushing, other times I go more complicated with actual brush highlights.

That all said, I am enjoying Monoliths Pro Acrylic Translucent Paints WAY more than my Contrast paints lately. They can be mixed and blended, go on smoother, and have nice bright pigments.

[baelthazar]

Latest use of translucent paints, drybrushing, light highlights. I did all three in one afternoon. Pardon the table.

[Blackhawk]

Why, is that a Redgrass Games wet palette top I see?

So I'm messing around a bit with painting again (truly, it's evergreen) and I saw a random Youtuber slather Nuln oil over a primed mini first. Then after that dried, they applied a contrast color over it. That felt...backwards to me, but maybe I'm missing something? He didn't explain why he did it in that order and the best I can come up with is that the contrast paint finishes "brighter" because you're not putting the Nuln oil over the top when you're finished?

This person suggests it reduces the blotchy issue I've seen with contrast paints over white-ish priming.

Anyone have any practical thoughts before I do it and then get frustrated?

My first thought is that it would serve as an alternative to zenithal/slapchop. I mean, any of the above techniques serve mainly to emphasize the highlights and shadows (badly), changing how much light reflects through the translucent colors that go over the top. And while, I've never used Nuln Oil (I actually find it a little obnoxious - I'm not fond of the GW-centric elements of the hobby), but depending on the makeup it might (guessing) serve to smooth out any graininess from the primer. Of course, that doesn't mean that it'll treat contrast paints better - that would vary between brands and (especially with Citadel) between colors.

[Smoove_B]

Ok, thanks for all the thoughts. I'm gonna give it a go.

I'm also not really into the GW stuff (despite the mountain of it I own) but I also know their *stuff* sometimes does not play well with others.

[Blackhawk]

GW's business model has always been to set themselves up as apart from the rest of the tabletop industry, to get people to treat it as a self-contained hobby. In practice, it's like tabletop hobbies include board games, card games, wargames (including skirmish games), RPGs, and GW. They've put a great deal of effort into keeping it that way, from hostile contracts with retailers, to blacklisting critics, to lawsuits.

The main problem is that they've designed an ecosystem that promotes elitism, and I've always found it obnoxious when GW fans just assume that anyone else who paints a miniature or measures range is playing a GW game. GW fans simply assume everyone is a GW fan. When it comes to painting, it shows up when they describe all of their tools, colors, and materials only in GW terms. It isn't "mix a little bit of orange in with your gray, let it dry, and go over it with a black wash" (which works for anybody), it is "mix a little Iyanden Darksun in with your Dawnstone, let it dry, and go over it with Nuln Oil" (which only helps other GW fans.)

[YellowKing]

Oathsworn minis (click to embiggen):



I'm really pleased with how these came out, especially since I basically slap-chopped them, roughly an hour per mini. I think the bigger size helped a ton because I could actually see them for a change.

[Smoove_B]

It isn't "mix a little bit of orange in with your gray, let it dry, and go over it with a black wash" (which works for anybody), it is "mix a little Iyanden Darksun in with your Dawnstone, let it dry, and go over it with Nuln Oil" (which only helps other GW fans.)

I get that, but I guess I thought "Nuln Oil" wasn't just "black wash" - that there were some some secret, proprietary ingredients that GW uses to help justify their "elite" status.

So me saying, "Hey, what happens if I use a black wash over [Mini] first before adding Contrast paints" didn't feel accurate (to me). Maybe I'm wrong.

[Blackhawk]

It isn't "mix a little bit of orange in with your gray, let it dry, and go over it with a black wash" (which works for anybody), it is "mix a little Iyanden Darksun in with your Dawnstone, let it dry, and go over it with Nuln Oil" (which only helps other GW fans.)

I get that, but I guess I thought "Nuln Oil" wasn't just "black wash" - that there were some some secret, proprietary ingredients that GW uses to help justify their "elite" status.

So me saying, "Hey, what happens if I use a black wash over [Mini] first before adding Contrast paints" didn't feel accurate (to me). Maybe I'm wrong.

There are about a hundred different washes (and wash recipes) out there, and they all have strengths and weaknesses. Nuln Oil is just one of the washes on that list. It's supposedly a good one. I've got a couple that have served my needs perfectly (I'm fond of Vallejo's washes, and have my own recipe using water, ink, and a couple of mediums.) Given how many years I've spent listening to the GW fans act like Nuln Oil is the only product on the market, and how many great washes I have, I haven't had the urge to try it.

Let me be clear: There's nothing wrong with it, or with using it. I just dislike the GW schtick enough that it makes me avoid their products 90% of the time. Which is sad, given how much I've enjoyed the Warhammer setting (referring to their fantasy setting - 40k was always a little too over the top for me.) In fact, I don't even have to look it up to know exactly what 'Nuln Oil' refers to (Nuln is the Empire's main weapons foundry and manufacturer, and is where they make all of their artillery.)

[Smoove_B]

Ah. Sounds like you're just dealing with PTSD.

I have no one IRL that is part of the GW hobby; my painting hobby started in 2012 with craft store acrylics. I talk to two other middle-aged men that also started painting in the last decade IRL and that's it.

I do have a few different branded washes, but like I said - I was going under the assumption that if I mixed and matched product, GW stuff wouldn't play nice - because that's been my experience in the past with Contrast related stuff (at least Gen 1.0) - maybe the newer ones are better, I have no idea.

[baelthazar]

Why yes that is a Redgrass wet palette. It’s a wonderful tool!

I’ve used a number of washes, including Nuln Oil and I find it works as one of the best. But it is for when you want super dark “black” shadows. It has a great fluidity and high pigment. It also, however, can leave more residue and pool in the wrong place. You have to control it with your brush. I also like GW’s Agrax Earthshade for brown, more natural, shadows. Both are “stronger” than their Army Painter equivalent so that is really up to style.

Not to constantly harp on about Pro Acrylic, but their dark and flesh wash gives GW a run for its money. That said, it isn’t exactly cheaper. Just different.

[baelthazar]

I was going under the assumption that if I mixed and matched product, GW stuff wouldn't play nice - because that's been my experience in the past with Contrast related stuff (at least Gen 1.0) - maybe the newer ones are better, I have no idea.

I mix and match GW stuff with pro acrylic and Reaper HD paints all the time. I also add Turbo Dork shifts and metallics on top. It works great.

[Smoove_B]

I mix and match GW stuff with pro acrylic and Reaper HD paints all the time. I also add Turbo Dork shifts and metallics on top. It works great.

I haven't had issues with stuff on top of Contrast paints, just to clarify. However, I have had really mixed experiences with various primers. So here, putting something else in the mix (so to speak) between the primer and the contrast paint seemed...dangerous to me.

[Blackhawk]

It also, however, can leave more residue and pool in the wrong place. You have to control it with your brush.

That's true of any wash. Too many people treat them like the old Army Painter Quickshade dips (remember that brief fad?) They're meant to be painted on, pushed away from the highlights, smoothed off of flat surfaces, and worked into the crevices.

And I also love my Redgrass palette.

I haven't had issues with stuff on top of Contrast paints, just to clarify. However, I have had really mixed experiences with various primers. So here, putting something else in the mix (so to speak) between the primer and the contrast paint seemed...dangerous to me.

Contrast paints can be tricky. They have a very, very low surface tension, and very little pigment. If the surface isn't right, they'll pool or bead. But experimentation is how techniques are improved. I keep broken/ruined minis, old parts, old bases, and old lead minis around just for testing new techniques like that.

As far as mixing materials, model builders use the exact same paints as miniature painters (in many cases literally, although model painters also have much more extensive selections of specialty paints like washes and shades.) And they regularly add layers of acrylic, enamel, tube oil paints, powdered pigment, varnishes, and even floor polish on top of each other. Oh, and decals. Even if some of them pronounce them 'deckles.'