Dead Island

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TheMix
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Re: Dead Island

Post by TheMix »

I'm not doubting you. I'm just saying that I can't recall ever having an issue. 300+ hours. And I enjoyed every one. :D

I'm sorry that you aren't able to enjoy it. It remains one of my favorite games to go back and revisit periodically.

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Re: Dead Island

Post by Max Peck »

There are plenty of complaints about the aim-assist on the Steam forums, so it's a real issue for at least some people. I don't remember having a problem with it, but it's been long enough since I played that it's entirely possible that I simply adapted to it.
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Re: Dead Island

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I should probably note that I very rarely used guns.

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Re: Dead Island

Post by Max Peck »

As well as firearms vs melee weapons, it's possible that it may be a controller vs keyboard/mouse issue. I always played with kbm, but I do recall trying to play with a controller (chasing an achievement, iirc) and hating it.
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Re: Dead Island

Post by Blackhawk »

I don't have any saves that own a gun anymore. But let me show you what it's like trying to get a headshot as a knife thrower:



And here is what it's like up close. This is me moving my mouse straight back and forth. Watch how the crosshair jumps to follow the target:



As someone who spent a lot of time learning to hit what I'm aiming at in games, it's a terrible, terrible feeling.

As I said, maybe I should try again as pure melee. Assuming that it's viable.
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Re: Dead Island

Post by Smoove_B »

Oh yeah, I can totally see it. I think I played these games primarily as melee so maybe that's why it's not registering for me?
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Re: Dead Island

Post by Max Peck »

Some of the chatter I'm seeing on Reddit and elsewhere specifically describes the aim assist as applying to guns, which would explain why those of us who primarily used melee (I was mostly all about the swords, regardless of the character I was playing) didn't have an issue with it.
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Re: Dead Island

Post by Smoove_B »

It could also be that maybe I'm more used to aim assist than I realize? I did use gun in Dead Island, but as I recall, ammo wasn't plentiful. It's possible that unlike Blackhawk, maybe I have just been subconsciously adjusting somehow? I know with all console controller based games I use snap-to-aim, because aiming with a controller is a fool's errand. Now I want to fire up the game myself and see what's happening. :)
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Re: Dead Island

Post by TheMix »

I don't think the aim (red x) for throwing melee ever targets the head specifically. But that doesn't preclude getting a headshot. It simply shows what zombie is getting targeted. For example, using the developer weapon that always gets a headshot will ... well... always get a headshot. But the red x doesn't change position. I suppose I just adapted to that right away. I don't ever target specific body parts when throwing a weapon. I just aim for the zombie and throw. Generally it's a pretty quick action. I can see if one was actually trying to target a specific body part it would be frustrating. I just never felt that was something it even supported; so I never tried.

Personally, my favorite play style for throwing weapons is to use Sam B and a high impact weapon. (The home run baseball bat developer weapon is hella fun.)

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Re: Dead Island

Post by Blackhawk »

It's a zombie game with extra damage for headshots. As a character who specialized in knife throwing, it was pretty important to land quick kills.

Another issue that I recall was that if you throw a weapon, the game equips another weapon for you automatically. The problem is that it will always equip the strongest weapon in your bar, not the next one in order. So imagine that you put knives on 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5, then your melee weapon on 6. You pull out knife #1 and throw it. It then pulls out weapon #6 (because it is registering as 'stronger'), requiring you to open the wheel and switch to knife #2. You throw it. It switches to weapon #6. Nine times out of ten, you'll end up throwing your melee weapon a zombie, then having to fight them off with a throwing knife used for melee.
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Re: Dead Island

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I'm really not sure what your goal is here. I love the game. 300+ hours. You aren't going to change my mind. I don't have any issues with it. (Well, except maybe for losing a favorite weapon by throwing it and having it clip through a wall.)

You don't like it. Fine. No one says you have to. And it's clear that nothing said here is likely to change your opinion either.

Guess I'm done with the discussion. I really don't want to argue about it. I was simply curious about one comment because I didn't understand it.

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Re: Dead Island

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TheMix wrote: Fri Mar 03, 2023 2:48 pm I'm really not sure what your goal is here. I love the game. 300+ hours. You aren't going to change my mind. I don't have any issues with it. (Well, except maybe for losing a favorite weapon by throwing it and having it clip through a wall.)

You don't like it. Fine. No one says you have to. And it's clear that nothing said here is likely to change your opinion either.

Guess I'm done with the discussion. I really don't want to argue about it. I was simply curious about one comment because I didn't understand it.
Peace and love man, peace and love! :happy-hippy: My only goal was to clarify why I had a bad time with the game, not to change your mind to question your own subjective experience.

And again, I didn't dislike the game. I just couldn't play it without the ability to aim. The rest of it - the setting, the progression, etc, I enjoyed. I liked the game except for the ranged combat mechanic. I'm seriously considering giving it a try again without any form of ranged weapon - just melee.
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Re: Dead Island

Post by Max Peck »

Blackhawk wrote: Fri Mar 03, 2023 2:59 pm My only goal was to clarify why I had a bad time with the game, not to change your mind to question your own subjective experience.
FWIW, that's how I took it. If anything, it's interesting to see how a game mechanic like aim assist can get completely in the way of certain play styles while being unobtrusive to others. Once I get my chores out of the way and fire up the game, I'll try to remember to pay attention to it and see whether it steps on my toes to any degree.
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Re: Dead Island

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It would probably be helpful to stop calling it "aim assist" with regards to thrown weapons. The game simply doesn't work that way. You simply attack. Then there is a chance that the hit will be a critical. There is no targeting, no aiming. You can't "get a crit" by "aiming for the head". That's not how the game is designed. Trying to play it that way will only disappoint.

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Re: Dead Island

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TheMix wrote: Fri Mar 03, 2023 4:59 pm It would probably be helpful to stop calling it "aim assist" with regards to thrown weapons. The game simply doesn't work that way. You simply attack. Then there is a chance that the hit will be a critical. There is no targeting, no aiming. You can't "get a crit" by "aiming for the head". That's not how the game is designed. Trying to play it that way will only disappoint.
When I looked (and just looked again), I found contradictory information all over the place on this. Some people say headshots do more, some say they do not. *shrug* It's a zombie game. If you can't shoot them in the head... well, it would be an odd design decision.

Whether you call it aim assist or auto-aim, it's the same thing - it's the computer adjusting your aim so that you hit. It's necessary in some console games, but is pretty much always an option that can be disabled in PC games, as a mouse provides enough precision that we generally don't need the game to compensate for us.
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Re: Dead Island

Post by Max Peck »

From what I gather, there is supposed to be a damage bonus for head shots that varies with weapon/zombie type. Here is a Riptide guide that gets crunchy (pun intended), although I can't verify the accuracy of the numbers. There is also some discussion of damage resistance being specific to particular body parts in at least some cases. All in all, it gives me the impression that it is advantageous to target specific body parts under the right circumstances.

Head shots aside, I have no idea whether targeted hits affect the probability of critical damage, but I'm pretty certain that they affect the results. For example, if you want to break a leg, you have to actually hit the leg.
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Re: Dead Island

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I'm talking about thrown targeting. That talks about melee. You can absolutely target limbs with melee. A well aimed sword stroke can decapitate multiple zombies at once. Thrown targeting is no different than any number of games that use tab to select the enemy you want to target. That's it. There is no aiming for thrown weapons. It's a design decision. I would strongly encourage anyone that can't move past that to avoid the game. But complaining that it doesn't work the way that "you" want it to work... I don't get it. It's the same argument that happens every time Daehawk wants to remap keys and the game won't let him. Either adapt or move on. Life is too short.

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Re: Dead Island

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And, just like many games that hardcode keys because interfaces are hard, it's a shitty design decision, tied mostly to lazy porting of a game initially designed for consoles. Just like low FOVs, positive and negative mouse acceleration, locked low frame rates, awkward inventories, giant interfaces, inconsistent controls (like Bethedsa games that have four different buttons to get out of a menu depending on which menu you're in), and a half a dozen other things that can reduce a game's functionality on a PC.

You are taking way more offense to this than I'd have expected. It's not an assault on you, it's a criticism of the game. This is a game discussion forum. We debate the pros and cons of things all the time, and we criticize games for poor design decisions all the time (even games we love - I criticize the hell out of Bethesda games, for instance.) I think it's a bad port with a lot of potential and I really want to enjoy it but. That's my personal opinion from having played gazillions of similar games. I'm not wrong. You feel it's not an issue. You're not wrong, either. You don't have to defend yourself from criticism that isn't directed at you by proving that my opinion is invalid.
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Re: Dead Island

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Blackhawk, are you KB/M or controller?
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Re: Dead Island

Post by Max Peck »

TheMix wrote: Fri Mar 03, 2023 7:34 pm I'm talking about thrown targeting. That talks about melee. You can absolutely target limbs with melee. A well aimed sword stroke can decapitate multiple zombies at once. Thrown targeting is no different than any number of games that use tab to select the enemy you want to target. That's it. There is no aiming for thrown weapons. It's a design decision.
Ah, OK. I misunderstood what you were getting at (obviously). D'oh! :doh:

Of course, having Sinamoi pull off a head shot with a thrown knife in the cut scene following the first fight does sort of set up unrealistic expectations. :lol:

Having played through to that point a couple of times now this evening, I will say how much I don't love the floaty movement. But I got used to it before, and I shall again.

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Re: Dead Island

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Isgrimnur wrote: Fri Mar 03, 2023 8:51 pm Blackhawk, are you KB/M or controller?
KB/M. My controller isn't even plugged in.
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Re: Dead Island

Post by Isgrimnur »

My testing is kb/m is that it only permits "Digital" combat. A controller is required for "Analog" to be available.

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Re: Dead Island

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Neither of which is a normal PC control scheme. They're console control schemes mapped to the keyboard.
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Re: Dead Island

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Re: Dead Island

Post by Max Peck »

I ended playing for about 4 hours yesterday, mostly with Slicey McStabface. Once my muscle memory re-emerged, and I relearned the joy of kicking, I had a good time. I can confirm the presence of aim assist is obvious with melee -- a good way to clearly see it is to run the targeting cursor over a zombie's body while it's on the ground, and seeing how the cursor tracks along the internal bone structure of the limbs. Having said that, it doesn't get in the way for melee, for me anyway. I'm playing with KBM/digital. I might try controller/analog at some point, but I recall trying and failing hard back when I played the OG game. I think it's likely a personal preference, as a friend loved playing with the analog combat for melee.
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Re: Dead Island

Post by Carpet_pissr »

I have the original, and apparently played 9h (that sounds about right). No idea why I sto...SQUIRREL!!! I do remember enjoying, and now I feel like finisging it. But as always, when I ask questions like "should I play this or the remaster" there is not even close to a concensus (on Steam at least). I was about to just buy the remaster, but me being me, HAD to check what people thought. So many people saying that the guns and atmosphere (?!) of the OG were better for X reason. I guess you are always going to get some people saying that, but it was more than just a few in this case, and seemed like a pretty popular opinion.

Anyone here want to tie break for me?

OG Dead Island (currently own) vs Definitive Edition (remastered with new textures...hope I can run it!).
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Re: Dead Island

Post by TheMix »

I never got around to playing the DE. But I did run through it a couple of times with a friend who had the DE. I only recall once or twice where he had an option for something that I didn't. I'm not really sure what it changes beyond some better textures. And, obviously, I was never able to compare my version with his. But I always felt it looked fine.

My vote is just play what you have.

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Re: Dead Island

Post by GreenGoo »

TheMix wrote: Fri Mar 03, 2023 12:58 pm
Blackhawk wrote: Fri Mar 03, 2023 12:32 pm I've yet to finish it. The harsh auto-aim with no option to disable it (including through modding) on a zombie game makes it feel horrible to me.
100s of hours, and I have no idea what you are referring to. But if it's not for you, then it's not for you.
I'm not sure I've fired a gun in Dead Island. I mean, I probably have, but guns are not the focus of the game. It's not a shooter even if you can shoot.

But as you've said, if the game isn't fun, it isn't fun. If you need to play a gunslinger, the problem Blackhawk describes would be a game ender.
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Re: Dead Island

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TheMix wrote: Fri Mar 03, 2023 2:48 pm I'm really not sure what your goal is here. I love the game. 300+ hours. You aren't going to change my mind. I don't have any issues with it. (Well, except maybe for losing a favorite weapon by throwing it and having it clip through a wall.)

You don't like it. Fine. No one says you have to. And it's clear that nothing said here is likely to change your opinion either.

Guess I'm done with the discussion. I really don't want to argue about it. I was simply curious about one comment because I didn't understand it.
I loved the game too, but Blackhawk is not a villain here, and rarely if ever is.

He has real issues with the game. Ones I never encountered myself, probably due to a difference in play style. The game definitely pushes you away from guns, even if there is an entire class dedicated to gun skills.

It's possible, as Smoove said, that I simply didn't notice.

As Max said, I only used kbm, it might be a problem with controller only (or not, I'm just agreeing it might be a possibility).

It's ok to love a game that others hate, and hate a game that others love. Sometimes that means conflict. But mostly, especially here on OO, it's just a difference in what people find important and/or enjoyable.
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Re: Dead Island

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Blackhawk wrote: Fri Mar 03, 2023 6:43 pm
When I looked (and just looked again), I found contradictory information all over the place on this. Some people say headshots do more, some say they do not. *shrug* It's a zombie game. If you can't shoot them in the head... well, it would be an odd design decision.
Agreed, but it's an experience point, skill tree based rpg with zombies. One of the reasons it was popular is because it was different than typical zombie games.

There are plenty of games that offer "critical hit" as a percentage chance based on skill selection. I fully admit that it would be an odd choice to do this with a hit location based dismemberment system, but it's certainly possible, especially if the dismemberment system wasn't designed with ranged weapons in mind.

I realize I am completely speculating when the answer(s) are almost certainly easy to figure out, just by playing it again. Which I'm not doing. Although tempting.

Edit: Or am I...?
No I am not. Or perhaps.

Shit.
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Re: Dead Island

Post by Max Peck »

I can confirm that there are skills that increase the probability of getting a critical hit, but I don't know if there are additional situational modifiers, such as hit location, that further affect the critical hit chance independently from the skill trees. Since the effect of a critical hit can include things like severing the head or a limb, there is still plenty of reason to aim at specific body parts even if that doesn't increase the chance for a crit.

I still haven't progressed far enough in my current play-through to test the impact of the aim assist on firearms. I just started Act 2, so it shouldn't be much longer before I get my hands on some guns.
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Re: Dead Island

Post by Blackhawk »

And just a reminder that my main complaint was that it feels bad to me. A very subjective point.
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Re: Dead Island

Post by GreenGoo »

144 hours, according to Steam. That sounds about right.
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Re: Dead Island

Post by Carpet_pissr »

FWIW I’m probably dropping it (again) due to what now feels to me like a bad porting from console (which is weird since I don’t remember thinking that before when I played several years ago).

Fully recognize that it could be bc I’m not using a controller, but when I’m ‘caught(?)’ by a zombie, an icon appears on screen seemingly telling me to ‘scroll my mouse down’ to escape.

Once? Fast? Many times? Maybe you mean the scroll wheel? It’s a mouse icon with an arrow pointing on top of it, indicating a ‘down’ motion.

Guess I’m glad I didn’t buy the definitive edition, but then again maybe it fixed some of the consolitis? I also plan to go back and try a different character (maybe the blades) before giving up. The rapper dude I’m playing feels very much…off in terms of mouse clicks to hits, but I do wonder if that’s intentional in the early game, to make you feel an obvious improvement as you skill up? Anyone remember if combat ‘feels’ better with higher weapon skills?
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Re: Dead Island

Post by Max Peck »

Carpet_pissr wrote: Mon Mar 06, 2023 12:56 pm Fully recognize that it could be bc I’m not using a controller, but when I’m ‘caught(?)’ by a zombie, an icon appears on screen seemingly telling me to ‘scroll my mouse down’ to escape.
That isn't how it works for the DE, although I don't recall if it was different for the OG. I'm playing with KBM, and when a zombie grapples me, there is a 2-stage pseudo-quicktime mechanism to break free. First I'm prompted to hit the left mouse button, followed by a timed prompt to hit the right mouse button. There is no scrolling involved.
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Re: Dead Island

Post by Carpet_pissr »

Max Peck wrote: Mon Mar 06, 2023 1:32 pm
Carpet_pissr wrote: Mon Mar 06, 2023 12:56 pm Fully recognize that it could be bc I’m not using a controller, but when I’m ‘caught(?)’ by a zombie, an icon appears on screen seemingly telling me to ‘scroll my mouse down’ to escape.
That isn't how it works for the DE, although I don't recall if it was different for the OG. I'm playing with KBM, and when a zombie grapples me, there is a 2-stage pseudo-quicktime mechanism to break free. First I'm prompted to hit the left mouse button, followed by a timed prompt to hit the right mouse button. There is no scrolling involved.
Interesting, thanks. For $3 might as well try the DE and see if it solves my complaints.
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Re: Dead Island

Post by TheMix »

Max Peck wrote: Mon Mar 06, 2023 1:32 pm
Carpet_pissr wrote: Mon Mar 06, 2023 12:56 pm Fully recognize that it could be bc I’m not using a controller, but when I’m ‘caught(?)’ by a zombie, an icon appears on screen seemingly telling me to ‘scroll my mouse down’ to escape.
That isn't how it works for the DE, although I don't recall if it was different for the OG. I'm playing with KBM, and when a zombie grapples me, there is a 2-stage pseudo-quicktime mechanism to break free. First I'm prompted to hit the left mouse button, followed by a timed prompt to hit the right mouse button. There is no scrolling involved.
At first I didn't understand the comment. But this sounds familiar. Pretty sure I always had the right/left mouse button option. I have only played the OG. Maybe it's a setting/option configuration? I don't have it installed currently, so I can't check.

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Re: Dead Island

Post by Isgrimnur »

My test got me right/left mouse button
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Re: Dead Island

Post by TheMix »

Mine too. I re-installed. I definitely get a "LMB" on the left side of the screen, followed - after I click the left mouse button - with a "RMB" on the right side of the screen that has a circle around it that fills in, as a timer.

I did not see any settings, sadly.

Additionally, I went through 50 rounds for my revolver. Every shot went exactly where I was aiming. There was no movement or aim adjustment. Head shots did more damage, but I didn't ever see any actual "critical" text. With the shotgun, shooting them in the head does seem to sometimes get you some text as verification.

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Carpet_pissr
Posts: 19980
Joined: Thu Nov 04, 2004 5:32 pm
Location: Columbia, SC

Re: Dead Island

Post by Carpet_pissr »

To be clear, I also see the flashing/pulsing “RMB” and “LMB” pop ups as well…the mouse icon/call to action is different.
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