Octopus Overlords

Smoove_B wrote: ↑Fri Apr 30, 2021 6:35 pmBut right now we can eliminate mentholated tobacco products and still have a measurable impact.

Also just from a governance/public policy point of view, excepting menthol made absolutely no sense. Which is why the lawsuit was filed, it worked its way very, very slowly through the system, and we got to a point that the court was pressing the FDA to explain the menthol carve out. The court case is a huge part of this story beyond this Lincoln-Douglas stuff.

Smoove_B wrote: ↑Fri Apr 30, 2021 6:35 pm Stop trying to be perfect and just think about being better.

I am.

The government telling me what I can do with my body is not "better."

noxiousdog wrote:

Smoove_B wrote: ↑Fri Apr 30, 2021 6:35 pm Stop trying to be perfect and just think about being better.

I am.

The government telling me what I can do with my body is not "better."

The government isn’t telling you what you can do with your body. The government is telling tobacco companies that they can’t add chemicals that make it easier for people to become chemically addicted to their cancer products.

Is adopting a habit out of youthful stupidity and sticking with it do to chemical addiction really an act of human agency for you?

I don't smoke menthol cigarettes, or any cigarettes but this is bullshit. It's governmental overreach. Bad cops, and income inequality kill way more POC then menthol cigarettes, but there's no huge federal campaign to ban that.

So I guess you and ND would agree that as America's #1 killer, all Americans should be forced to submit to a COVID vaccination right now? If we're going to focus on the biggest numbers, then let's do it.

Smoove_B wrote:So I guess you and ND would agree that as America's #1 killer, all Americans should be forced to submit to a COVID vaccination right now? If we're going to focus on the biggest numbers, then let's do it.

Forced? No but I'm all for vaccine cards and lack of access to public facilities.

noxiousdog wrote: ↑Sat May 01, 2021 1:27 pm Forced? No

But it would help the most people? We'd save hundreds of thousands of lives - it would have the greatest impact. Isn't that the only metric that matters when justifying effort or appropriateness?

but I'm all for vaccine cards and lack of access to public facilities.

Mandating paperwork that you need to produce is acceptable to you? You have some weird lines man.

Menthol is not chemically addictive. Nor is menthol (the additive) being banned.

It's humorous to watch the"not one right way to live" folks telling people how to live.

noxiousdog wrote: ↑Sat May 01, 2021 1:34 pmMenthol is not chemically addictive. Nor is menthol (the additive) being banned.

That's good because that isn't an argument anyone is making.

It's humorous to watch the"not one right way to live" folks telling people how to live.

Except that isn't what is happening. The government is proposing they use their legal regulatory power to limit the sale of a dangerous product.

malchior wrote: ↑Sat May 01, 2021 1:47 pm The government is proposing they use their legal regulatory power to limit the sale of a dangerous product.

Exhibit A as to why we'll never move the needle on the 2A. There are people that will vehemently argue they have a right to smoke mentholated tobacco and any type of government action to restrict how a known carcinogen with addictive qualities is rendered easier to use is unacceptable - and it's not even in the Constitution.

When I smoked I found menthols nasty. The only time Id smoke one was when I was sick with a sore throat. My brother smoked them all the time though.

Make Arsenic in Clothing Great Again! Bring back Trimz DDT-laced wallpaper for kids!

It all makes sense now.

Stop telling restaurants they have to keep their food at safe temperatures!

We don’t have the freedom to be stupid and do dangerous things. Those who propose they can do anything they want FER FREEDUMZ! believe in a mythology that is a lie.

noxiousdog wrote:Menthol is not chemically addictive. Nor is menthol (the additive) being banned.

It's humorous to watch the"not one right way to live" folks telling people how to live.

No one is telling people how to live.

Cigarette companies are being told that they can’t sell their cancer products with menthol added.

Pretty bizarre to see someone advocating for death sticks in any form.

You guys do this and then wonder why so many republicans are afraid of the nanny state. Of course, they do it too which is why you're afraid of them.

It just happens when it's in your moral compass it's great. And when it's their moral compass it's the devil.

Why can't you both just let people make their own decisions when it doesn't affect anyone but themselves? I'm not saying a free for all, but when the risks are known, published, advertised, and communicated, let people make their own decisions? Is that so hard?

It’s not people making their own decisions. It’s corporations making decisions without oversight to increase their market. If someone wants to take their cigarettes and soak them in Listerine, no one is going to come arrest them.

RunningMn9 wrote:

noxiousdog wrote:Menthol is not chemically addictive. Nor is menthol (the additive) being banned.

It's humorous to watch the"not one right way to live" folks telling people how to live.

No one is telling people how to live.

Cigarette companies are being told that they can’t sell their cancer products with menthol added.

Sure you are. You're telling people your vices are right and theirs are wrong.

Isgrimnur wrote:It’s not people making their own decisions. It’s corporations making decisions without oversight to increase their market. If someone wants to take their cigarettes and soak them in Listerine, no one is going to come arrest them.

Fantastic. And those types of things are how people die. It's already happened with black market vape juice.

noxiousdog wrote: ↑Sat May 01, 2021 3:26 pm
Why can't you both just let people make their own decisions when it doesn't affect anyone but themselves?

Second hand smoke much?

noxiousdog wrote: ↑Sat May 01, 2021 3:26 pm Why can't you both just let people make their own decisions when it doesn't affect anyone but themselves?

I'd be fine with it if lung cancer and emphysema had no consequences on anyone but the smoker.

I’m not wasting my time with this nonsense anymore. Good luck.

noxiousdog wrote:

Isgrimnur wrote:It’s not people making their own decisions. It’s corporations making decisions without oversight to increase their market. If someone wants to take their cigarettes and soak them in Listerine, no one is going to come arrest them.

Fantastic. And those types of things are how people die. It's already happened with black market vape juice.

Then perhaps it should be regulated...

Regulate it all you want. Just don't ban it.

Banning is part of regulating.

noxiousdog wrote: ↑Sat May 01, 2021 3:26 pm You guys do this and then wonder why so many republicans are afraid of the nanny state.

If opposing Republican party is the side I'm on right now with mentholated cigarettes, then I wear that like a badge of honor.

Isgrimnur wrote: ↑Sat May 01, 2021 3:53 pm Banning is part of regulating.

Hey, it says *promote* the general Welfare, not ban or regulate it!

noxiousdog wrote: ↑Sat May 01, 2021 3:26 pm Why can't you both just let people make their own decisions when it doesn't affect anyone but themselves?

My mother's decision to smoke resulted in me losing my mother at eight, leaving me to be raised by a neglectful father, which was the major factor in me being disabled which destroyed my first marriage, seriously harmed my first son, and has prevented my family since then from ever thriving like they could have done otherwise.

Smoove_B wrote: ↑Sat May 01, 2021 4:28 pm

Isgrimnur wrote: ↑Sat May 01, 2021 3:53 pm Banning is part of regulating.

Hey, it says *promote* the general Welfare, not ban or regulate it!

It's not like we can just ban people we don't like.

I'm a smoker. I wish they would ban tobacco products entirely.

This is my last comment as we're going in circles, but I would ask that the group give it some honest thought.

There are a whole host of unhealthy things that we, as humans, like to do.

Motorcyclists are 28 times more likely than passenger-vehicle occupants to die in a car crash.

I think we're all familiar with how terrible alcohol is on our health, waistlines, and driving skills. I'm sure we've all known alcoholics and the damage it's done to families.

Football results in nearly 67,000 concussions in high school football alone. How many knee and hip replacements have we asked from our athletes? How many CTE related suicides or murders? Boxers and UFC fighters don't strike me as the healthiest people when they leave their sports.

Gambling (include home poker games) rules and regulations are all over the place, but sometimes they get more lax or more stringent depending on the way the wind blows. $78 billion is taken directly by the government in lottery winnings.

And of course, the real one affecting more Americans than any other: food. Obesity dwarfs tobacco in health related issues. Obviously we all have to eat, but junk food and fast food are the menthols of nutrition.

I'm sure we can all think of more. I know there's both a strong drug legalization (depending on the drug) and keep it illegal group here, for example.

Most of us partake in some of these vices. Just honestly ask yourself if you really want someone else telling you that you don't have the right to make these decisions yourself.

noxiousdog wrote: ↑Fri Apr 30, 2021 10:06 am

Smoove_B wrote: ↑Fri Apr 30, 2021 9:43 am Tobacco, alcohol and fast food are all problematic. This is an effort to undo decades of targeted sales.

Signed, high fructose corn syrup, trans fat, advertising, and Happy Meals.

Partially hydrogenated oils, an artificial source of trans fat, hit a total ban at the start of last year.

noxiousdog wrote:This is my last comment as we're going in circles, but I would ask that the group give it some honest thought.

There are a whole host of unhealthy things that we, as humans, like to do.

Motorcyclists are 28 times more likely than passenger-vehicle occupants to die in a car crash.

I think we're all familiar with how terrible alcohol is on our health, waistlines, and driving skills. I'm sure we've all known alcoholics and the damage it's done to families.

Football results in nearly 67,000 concussions in high school football alone. How many knee and hip replacements have we asked from our athletes? How many CTE related suicides or murders? Boxers and UFC fighters don't strike me as the healthiest people when they leave their sports.

Gambling (include home poker games) rules and regulations are all over the place, but sometimes they get more lax or more stringent depending on the way the wind blows. $78 billion is taken directly by the government in lottery winnings.

And of course, the real one affecting more Americans than any other: food. Obesity dwarfs tobacco in health related issues. Obviously we all have to eat, but junk food and fast food are the menthols of nutrition.

I'm sure we can all think of more. I know there's both a strong drug legalization (depending on the drug) and keep it illegal group here, for example.

Most of us partake in some of these vices. Just honestly ask yourself if you really want someone else telling you that you don't have the right to make these decisions yourself.

While all of those are fine debates in their own rights. You're missing the poison tree for the forest. Menthol specifically is an unecessary additive to a particular subset of products within a larger set designed to maximise youth and vulnerable population exploitation. If there is evidence that this type of targeted ban is ineffective, show us.
But the LIBERTARIANS! Argument doesnt really hold up. Its a specific targeted subset within a larger space.
Like banning not wearing helmets, or deceptive nutritional information, or cartoons on cigarette boxes. As long as there are moderately cheap readily available alternatives there isnt much drive to create a black market( i would think) something tells me the sale of breath mints with cigarettes may go up.

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Biden administration delays proposed ban on menthol cigarettes

A proposed ban on menthol cigarettes in the US “will take significantly more time,” US Health and Human Services Secretary Xavier Becerra said in a statement Friday, delaying a decision that had posed political risks for President Joe Biden as he runs for re-election.

“This rule has garnered historic attention and the public comment period has yielded an immense amount of feedback, including from various elements of the civil rights and criminal justice movement,” Becerra said. “It’s clear that there are still more conversations to have, and that will take significantly more time.”

An administration official declined to specify further what the current timeline for a final decision might be, saying there was a need to speak with more groups and work through the concerns that have been raised. “Hard to put a timeline on that,” the official said.
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The FDA’s proposed rule would ban the manufacturing and sale of menthols but would not police smokers themselves.