Temple of Elemental Evil, revisited

[Sarkus]

Back in late 2003 the most anticipated game for me was Temple of Elemental Evil. I had it reserved and when I ended up getting a free copy a few days early I about passed out in excitement.

I think I managed to explore the first town and one or two levels of the starter area before all the negativity on the official boards killed my enthusiasm. All the talk of bugs, unfinished areas, unsure developer support, and suggestions the publisher had forced the pulling of mature content convinced me it was another "Pool of Radiance." A few months later I deleted it from my hard drive and never looked back, even when hearing about mod/patches that supposedly fixed it.

Having some time on my hands over the holiday's I decided to install it again and use the Circle of Eight mod/patch. Since I played so little of this game the first time, it's finding a whole new game. And damn if it isn't pretty big, complicated, and hard. My now level two party is getting pounded around the dungeons. I'm reverting to having to save every five steps. I'm looking in the manual to figure out how the hell I'm supposed to beat some of these monsters. And it's damn fun.

So, anyone who missed this one way back when or who gave up pretty quickly with all the issues, I'd say download the updates and give it a whirl. I don't know when we'll see a party turn-based RPG again so we might as well look to see what we missed in the past.

[KillTrash]

Humm... Same thing happened to me too. I was so excited over that game and all the negative comments all around turned me off. I uninstalled it and never installed back. Maybe I should give it a try again with fan made patches.

Now to find my copy of the game...

[Daehawk]

I dont remember having any bugs crop up on me when I got it. But by the 3rd or 4th lvl of the temple dungeon I was bored to tears and gave up. It was'nt much of a game to me with 2 towns and a huge dungeon. I guess I was expecting Baldur's Gate or something. May retry it again sometime.

[Smoove_B]

It wasn't much of a game to me with 2 towns and a huge dungeon.

Did you play the Pen and Paper version of the game? Troika created an exact, digital replica -- which I have to give them credit for.

The game, at heart, is the BEST D&D turn-based combat simulator that's even been created - IMHO anyway. If you enjoy strategic, turn-based combat, ToEE is the way to go. Don't play for deep story or creative NPC interactions. That's not at all what this is about.

I waited until it hit the bargain bins and then hit it with the Circle of 8 fan-patch. Had a blast.

[Kadoth Nodens]

Played through it twice. Once in all it's buggy, release-style glory and a second time with patches both offical and fan-made. Had lots of fun both times.

The game, at heart, is the BEST D&D turn-based combat simulator that's even been created - IMHO anyway.

Agreed.

[DArtagnan]

I never had that much trouble with bugs.

The only thing that really put me off it was that I basically completed it by accident.

I was greatly enjoying the game and I think my characters got all the way to level 10 (cap IIRC).


* POSSIBLE SPOILER *












Then I accidentally stumpled upon what I remember as an old lady who I met without any tangible context. She said something like "Will you worship/join me?" and I said something like "No." and I think I killed her in 1 hit afterwards as she got aggressive. Then the credits rolled.

I apparently hit upon the champer of the final enemy when I wasn't supposed to, and I don't even remember how. There was nothing leading up to it, and I had no way of anticipating that meeting.

It was the most anti-climactic way to end a game I think I'd seen for years.

It really messed up my opinion about the game, as I was mostly quite fond of it and I LOVED the combat system. Story was never that important to me, but you have to get SOMETHING which I felt just wasn't there.

Too bad really. I still have warm and fuzzy feelings when I think of the Boathouse/swamp area in the beginning with ultra-nostalgic music and wonderfully animated giant frogs. The first time I got there I was in D&D heaven.










* SPOILER END *

[Dan_Theman]

'Twas a beautiful game when done right by CO8. Even with its original bugs, I enjoyed it enough to slog through the occasional mess. It's a real shame the the original release turned out so badly, as I truly think that had something to do with expediting the downfall of turn-based RPG's. If the first release of ToEE had realized its full glory, perhaps there would have enough of a groundswell of support to keep them going strong.

[Jeff V]

It was okay until I got to the temple itself, which I found to be a crushing bore. It reminded me of those silly old D&D modules where there was a different critter behind every door. There was a reason I stopped wasting money on that garbage and started writing my own. After two levels of the temple, I gave up on it; I was not having any fun at all.

[IceBear]

It was okay until I got to the temple itself, which I found to be a crushing bore. It reminded me of those silly old D&D modules where there was a different critter behind every door.

That's because that's what it was Trokia was faithful to the original module and that was a lot of the problem - the roleplaying genre has evolved a lot from those early days of dungeon delving for no real reason other than to get XP and treasure.

Like you, I wrote my own modules - those old TSR modules were good for stealing encounters from but that was about it, in my group's opinion anyway

[Mr. Sparkle]

I didn't have much problem with bugs, but thought it was mind numbingly boring.

Horrible, horrible, implementation of a module I never even liked. Granted, it's the same way me and my friends would have played it in PnP back in the day... basically moving from combat to combat with no regard to story or other "useless filler"... but I've come to expect a little more from my CRPGs in the last 10-15 years.

[Jeff V]

Yeah, I knew that was what they did, but I didn't realize how bad the outcome would be. I guess I thought some changes would have had to be made to make it entertaining on the computer...and I was right!

[Smoove_B]

Yeah, I knew that was what they did, but I didn't realize how bad the outcome would be. I guess I thought some changes would have had to be made to make it entertaining on the computer...and I was right!

The mistake they made (bugs aside) was grossly underestimating the demand for a hyper-detailed turn-based D&D combat game. Everyone was thinking it was going to be like Baldur's Gate or Planescape.

Once you realize what you're dealing with, the game is amazing.

[Jag]

I really enjoyed it. I just remember that it took along time for the turns to finish which kind of killed. That and I remember something about it reformatting your PC if you tried to uninstall it.

[Kehama]

I love the first half of this game. My problem was that I always hit the level cap halfway through the temple. For the last half I'm just pushing past enemies to finish the game. I don't care about xp, since I'm capped, and the loot really doesn't improve that much. So basically, the entire point of the game is gone. XP and loot.

As others have said, if I could play a completely different story with this game engine, I'd be one happy camper.

[IceBear]

I really enjoyed it. I just remember that it took along time for the turns to finish which kind of killed. That and I remember something about it reformatting your PC if you tried to uninstall it.

That was the latest Pool of Radiance game, not ToEE

[IceBear]

Everyone was thinking it was going to be like Baldur's Gate or Planescape.

All games based on the D&D licence tend to have that problem

[The Meal]

Definitely the best D&D combat simulator I've played and I had many hours of fun with the game until performance issues kept me from finishing it. This is one of the growing list of titles I'll replay if/when I get my new rig.

The thought of playing other hack-and-slash modules in that same combat engine makes my pants get tight.

~Neal

[Peacedog]

The mistake they made (bugs aside) was grossly underestimating the demand for a hyper-detailed turn-based D&D combat game. Everyone was thinking it was going to be like Baldur's Gate or Planescape.

Once you realize what you're dealing with, the game is amazing.

There is, perhaps, one other issue (aside from a few interface improvements that would go a long way).

The fleeing issue really messed with everyone at first. And there were occasional quirks, here you got into combat in certan places and possibly couldn't get out again (I'm thinking of a certain wizard with a fondness for invisibility).

What they needed to do in this engine was have the party be represented iconically when not in combat. Ditto monster groups. When combat starts, you fight it out in the map - but you're really in a separate combat map. There are boundaries that, if reached, allow one to flee. Very much like the original Gold Box games (and, of course, all subsequent old school D&D products in that mold; dark queens and savage frontiers and ulimited adventures, oh my).

Really, that would be preferrable, I think. Otherwise, except for those occasional interface tweaks, I'd leave the combat intact. The glorious, wonderful, combat.

[JonathanStrange]

Although I haven't looked recently, for a time BB had the jewel case version for $4.95 - the price seemed to bounce around $4.95 then back to $9.95 and back again. If you timed it right, you could relive the experience for a bargain. The game's combat really was interesting, very interesting; too bad about the rest of the game though.

[Mr. Sparkle]

Very much like the original Gold Box games...

To me that's why it was so lame. It brought nothing new to the table except 3.X rules.

I loved the Gold Box games, but CRPGs have come a long way since being a graphical interface for a die rolling program and substitute for needing to paint miniatures.

There are countless shareware titles out there that achieve the same thing without the high cost related to a D&D title.

[Butterknife]

Too hard. Unless you are a D&D grognard.

[Peacedog]

Too hard. Unless you are a D&D grognard.

Or took "PnP Zen Master" as one of your character creation perks.

The description from the source book:

You have an affinity for gaming systems of all shapes and sizes. As a result, resource management and decision making comes naturally. You can master any new system much quicker than normal players, cutting the time cost by a factor of 5, and by a factor of 10 on a critical success roll. Further, you gain a +2 bonus to knowledge checks regarding any pnp game.

As with all things, such benefits come with a cost. Dates, in this case. Many, many dates.

[pad152]

There's a good web site for TOEE with mods and add-on's

http://www.sorcerers.net/Games/ToEE/index_editors.php

The game is still better then NWN2

[IceBear]

The game is still better then NWN2

If you mean a better adaptation of the pen and paper game I agree with you. Of course you don't but I'll just ignore that unnecessary potshot

[ChrisGwinn]

Too hard. Unless you are a D&D grognard.

Or took "PnP Zen Master" as one of your character creation perks.

The description from the source book:

You have an affinity for gaming systems of all shapes and sizes. As a result, resource management and decision making comes naturally. You can master any new system much quicker than normal players, cutting the time cost by a factor of 5, and by a factor of 10 on a critical success roll. Further, you gain a +2 bonus to knowledge checks regarding any pnp game.

As with all things, such benefits come with a cost. Dates, in this case. Many, many dates.

Hey! I took that. Does it qualify me for any prestige classes?

[Butterknife]

Too hard. Unless you are a D&D grognard.

Or took "PnP Zen Master" as one of your character creation perks.

The description from the source book:

You have an affinity for gaming systems of all shapes and sizes. As a result, resource management and decision making comes naturally. You can master any new system much quicker than normal players, cutting the time cost by a factor of 5, and by a factor of 10 on a critical success roll. Further, you gain a +2 bonus to knowledge checks regarding any pnp game.

As with all things, such benefits come with a cost. Dates, in this case. Many, many dates.

Hey! I took that. Does it qualify me for any prestige classes?

Sure does! You qualify for both the "Nerd" and "Geek" prestige classes.

[Peacedog]

Hey! I took that. Does it qualify me for any prestige classes?

Sure does! You qualify for both the "Nerd" and "Geek" prestige classes. [/quote]

It actually has it's origins in GURPS. And likely a healthy list of modifications you can take with it.

<-- Just picked up Gurps Basic Set Characters 4th edition

[Lee]

There's a good web site for TOEE with mods and add-on's

http://www.sorcerers.net/Games/ToEE/index_editors.php

Thanks for the link, I am tempted to give it another try now.

[Roguetad]

Played through it twice. Once in all it's buggy, release-style glory and a second time with patches both offical and fan-made. Had lots of fun both times.

The game, at heart, is the BEST D&D turn-based combat simulator that's even been created - IMHO anyway.

Agreed.

Agree wholeheartedly. I also played through twice. Once with a good aligned party, and once with a party of CE half-orcs. The first time through was unpatched with all the bugs. The second time through was with the CO8 patch. Both times I loved the game for what it was...a really good turn based D&D combat experience. The last time I had that much fun with a turn based combat title was playing Bluebyte's Incubation.

[moss_icon]

The game is still better then NWN2

i uninstalled ToEE after 10 minutes, whilst NWN2 has had over 30 hours dedicated to it.

[Sarkus]

I've actually soured rather quickly on the game.

For some reason half the dialogue options aren't coming up, which eliminates a whole lot of the opening town experience options. I simply cannot advance most of the in-town quests. Trying to advance on the combat path leads to the same issues. For example, the various FAQ's say that if you are wearing certain capes then you should be able to talk your way past a certain Ogre that they all agree is very difficult for that point in the game. No dialogue options come up - it's straight to a fight when I try it. While it is true that none of my created party members ended up with more than average charisma, that shouldn't eliminate all these quests and options. So, I find myself having difficulty advancing in the combat because my party experience level is just a notch too low.

I keep coming back to try and move forward but my interest is waning quickly.

[Buatha]

Even with the Co8 5.0.0 and the .3 cumulative fixes? I know there is some specific install instructions that need to be followed, otherwise weird stuff will happen.

[ydejin]

I
For some reason half the dialogue options aren't coming up, which eliminates a whole lot of the opening town experience options.

The opening town is probably the worst and most annoying part of the game. Honestly you are not missing much. I can see how experience loss might be an issue -- is there a trainer you can run to boost yourself up to 2nd level?

[Dan_Theman]

Even with the Co8 5.0.0 and the .3 cumulative fixes? I know there is some specific install instructions that need to be followed, otherwise weird stuff will happen.

If I recall correctly, you don't want to install the official third patch as that actually caused more problems. Instead, use Co8 after the first two official patches. Check their forums just to make sure.

[Kehama]

Dialogue options are also affected by alignment, intelligence, and skills (bluff, intimidate, etc) So, for instance, if you're using a low intelligence half-orc fighter to initiate conversations, most of your options will be to reply "Me like you!" or "You funny looking!" even if being asked some horribly complex questions like "What is your name?" or "What is your favorite color?"

The abilities of the character you talk with really can change the way the game plays. My poor orc was so misunderstood... people called him stupid. People called him an oaf. Eventually he just started whacking everybody over the head with a club and the taunts stopped. Still finished the game too, though his epic story ended up being "Stuff got in my way, and I smashed 'em." He hardly had access to any of the game's actual "story", as shaky as it may have been.

[Dan_Theman]

I stopped by my local Half-Price Books and saw a copy of this sitting there for $6. I thought briefly about picking it up for a friend of mine, and then I noticed they also had the Baldurs Gate 2 complete set for $9.99, and figured he might be happier with that one. While it was "only" second edition rules, fun is fun.

Still, I'll always have a soft spot in my heart for this game, if not for the convoluted mini-plots in the first village.

[Yog-Sothoth]

Still, I'll always have a soft spot in my heart for this game, if not for the convoluted mini-plots in the first village.

I tried playing ToEE a while ago, and after finishing most of the village quests my enthusiasm waned. It's very annoying. At the beginning there is a lot of tedious mini-plots, then when you get on the main quest the plot elements just go away. They could have used some of that creativity to make the main quest more interesting (even if that wouldn't have been faithful to the PnP module).

With luck the next time I start from where I left off I'll have forgotten all that and can get into the tactical game.

[Thraxx]

Even with the Co8 5.0.0 and the .3 cumulative fixes? I know there is some specific install instructions that need to be followed, otherwise weird stuff will happen.

If I recall correctly, you don't want to install the official third patch as that actually caused more problems. Instead, use Co8 after the first two official patches. Check their forums just to make sure.

Correct. Avoid patch three if using Co8. They mention this in their obscenely long readme.

[Jaymann]

I picked this up for 6 bucks on GOG when I learned you could re-roll the stats on your character, and realized I never played it back in the day. The stats part is great, but it is 6 individual rolls, not a point total you can distribute how you want. As such it seems more important to get 3 or 4 high rolls.

I'm getting used to the gameplay, but some things are a little wonky:

It is nearly impossible to rest in the wild without getting mobbed.
The max weight carry is low, so it looks like many trips to town.
Inventory slots are tiny.
The radial attack/skill system is funky.
When I use "heal" it says it was successful, but hp doesn't go up.

Still not bad for playing without a guide (so far).

[TheMix]

Apparently that's not what the Heal skill does. I found this:

Use this skill to keep a badly wounded friend from dying. Heal can only be used for a dying creature. If a character has negative hit points and is losing hit points (at the rate of 1 per round, 1 per hour, or 1 per day), a character with the Heal skill can make him stable. A character can be healed if the Heal check succeeds against a DC of 15. A stable character is unable to regain hit points on his own but will no longer lose any hit points.