[Fallen2] Game over... Night still eternal

Remus West · Post by **Remus West** » Fri Oct 27, 2006 2:30 pm

Caine wrote:
Remus West wrote:
Caine wrote:i am contemplating my move while i wait for chaosraven's reply.
reply? if you PM'd him you should know he is on his way to work, I'll call and holler at him just in case.
thanks remus. i saw he was logged in, but if he just left, his login would still be active for a while.

Voicemail. If you want to PM me the question I might be able to answer, if I am not 100% sure I will tell you to wait for him.

Chaosraven · Post by **Chaosraven** » Fri Oct 27, 2006 2:31 pm

Or you can figure I was answering him and not bothering to go get the phone in the other room...

Caine · Post by **Caine** » Fri Oct 27, 2006 2:35 pm

here's how we stand so far.

caine
Drazzil - Yossar
Kraegor - usul
UsulofDoom - kraegor
yossar - kraegor

i know drazzil is innocent, but out of k, u, and y, one is light and one is the hopeful. if we pick and whack the wannabe, i will surely die this night. out of the three i suspect usul the most, with yossar highly likely to be the hopeful. both voted for kraegor.

before genghis was taken, we talked about who we thought was most likely to die. he guessed correctly. as long as i am also correct, we will win.

i now know that kraegor is not the lightbringer. how do i know this? he was protected from death last night.

if usul is not lightbringer, get yossar tommorow.

yossar · Post by **yossar** » Fri Oct 27, 2006 2:38 pm

Caine wrote:i now know that kraegor is not the lightbringer. how do i know this? he was protected from death last night.

Why can't you protect a lightbringer from death?

Remus West · Post by **Remus West** » Fri Oct 27, 2006 2:50 pm

Chaosraven wrote:Or you can figure I was answering him and not bothering to go get the phone in the other room...

Lazy bashat.

Drazzil · Post by **Drazzil** » Fri Oct 27, 2006 2:51 pm

I am withdrawing my vote for Yossar, in favor of UsulofDoom

May the fang-cocked demons of gehenna have their way with his soul while he laments and shrieks his torments to his powerless gods for all of eternity.

Caine · Post by **Caine** » Fri Oct 27, 2006 2:52 pm

you can, but it's what happened after that which raised my suspicion of usul.

if you have a grand reason to suspect him, tell me.

yossar · Post by **yossar** » Fri Oct 27, 2006 3:13 pm

I'm not feeling nearly creative enough to concoct another crazy reason to suspect Kraegor.

With that and the three votes for Usul, I guess that means game over for the good guys. Drazzil's sudden return and the guardian's protection working at the end pretty much sealed the lightbringer's fate.

Kraegor · Post by **Kraegor** » Fri Oct 27, 2006 3:22 pm

heh wasnt so crazy, if you had phrased your vote for Zurai differently you would have had a very nice wedge to use against me.

woulda taken the game to the wire.

coulda killed drazzil since he was locked onto you, and then it woulda been caine you were convincing. and with Caine you mighta had a shot at getting me.

yossar · Post by **yossar** » Fri Oct 27, 2006 3:28 pm

I liked the fact that Drazzil was locked onto me. If you guys had voted for me instead of Usul, you'd have gotten a non-lightbringer and all of a sudden Kraegor is looking more like a lightbringer.

It also would have helped if Usul, Zurai, and myself hadn't been voting in lockstep the entire game.

Kraegor · Post by **Kraegor** » Fri Oct 27, 2006 3:30 pm

yossar wrote:I liked the fact that Drazzil was locked onto me. If you guys had voted for me instead of Usul, you'd have gotten a non-lightbringer and all of a sudden Kraegor is looking more like a lightbringer.

It also would have helped if Usul, Zurai, and myself hadn't been voting in lockstep the entire game.

funny thing: Drazzil did send me a PM to vote against you this round. woulda worked out just like ya wanted! :p

msteelers · Post by **msteelers** » Fri Oct 27, 2006 3:32 pm

So is the game over then? Can we get on with the analyzing?

yossar · Post by **yossar** » Fri Oct 27, 2006 3:33 pm

The tough part is finding a way to get people to vote for you without seeming too transparent. I probably should have told Usul to vote for me earlier this round, but at that point I thought we still had a chance of getting Kraegor.

yossar · Post by **yossar** » Fri Oct 27, 2006 3:34 pm

The game is effectively, if not officially, over.

Zurai · Post by **Zurai** » Fri Oct 27, 2006 3:46 pm

I knew we were going to hit the Shadow there. I knew it. My luck guaranteed it. Ask Panz about my luck sometime - I call a good roll in World of Warcraft anything above a 10 (out of 100).

I'm interested to know who all the specials were, myself.

Oh, and I was pretty sure Drazzil was gonna back out of backing out, too

double lame.

Remus West · Post by **Remus West** » Fri Oct 27, 2006 3:48 pm

Zurai wrote:I knew we were going to hit the Shadow there. I knew it. My luck guaranteed it. Ask Panz about my luck sometime - I call a good roll in World of Warcraft anything above a 10 (out of 100).

I'm interested to know who all the specials were, myself.

I could tell you but I'll let CR wrap this up before I make comments.

Bakhtosh · Post by **Bakhtosh** » Fri Oct 27, 2006 3:51 pm

Wraith

Kraegor · Post by **Kraegor** » Fri Oct 27, 2006 3:52 pm

yossar wrote:The tough part is finding a way to get people to vote for you without seeming too transparent. I probably should have told Usul to vote for me earlier this round, but at that point I thought we still had a chance of getting Kraegor.

i was pretty much positive i was safe from accusation, until you killed Zurai, before Drazzil could lock the vote. That gave you a lot of street cred (in my opinion) but ya didnt use it!!

If you had played up yer vote...i woulda sounded just like a blowhard who was bluffing

as for voting in lockstep...technically...since we analyze every game for patterns...that pattern would have been least expected, so it wasnt neccessarily bad. Had me moderately suspicious that Drazzil was playin some weirdass shell game.

msteelers · Post by **msteelers** » Fri Oct 27, 2006 4:12 pm

The worst step the lightbringers and the holy one did was not take my word for granted when I was still alive. I had all of the specials hooked up with each other (if they knew it or not), so anyone out of line had a big bullseye on their back.

I was also very surprised no one of the lightbringers tried to pretend to be a special. At the very least it could have sown confusion before I was killed.

yossar · Post by **yossar** » Fri Oct 27, 2006 4:20 pm

Kraegor wrote:i was pretty much positive i was safe from accusation, until you killed Zurai, before Drazzil could lock the vote. That gave you a lot of street cred (in my opinion) but ya didnt use it!!

Yeah, but I figured no matter what I did, Caine would vote for Usul (which he did). It was the logical move to make, unless he thought you and I were somehow working as a team to completely confuse people (which would have been brilliant if it were true).

Remus West · Post by **Remus West** » Fri Oct 27, 2006 4:20 pm

msteelers wrote:The worst step the lightbringers and the holy one did was not take my word for granted when I was still alive. I had all of the specials hooked up with each other (if they knew it or not), so anyone out of line had a big bullseye on their back.

I was also very surprised no one of the lightbringers tried to pretend to be a special. At the very least it could have sown confusion before I was killed.

Yeah that shocked me. When you voted nameless I figured they would all have to shrug and jump on the pile then they voted for the one player you said had been explicitly cleared by the Devil.

yossar · Post by **yossar** » Fri Oct 27, 2006 4:22 pm

msteelers wrote:The worst step the lightbringers and the holy one did was not take my word for granted when I was still alive. I had all of the specials hooked up with each other (if they knew it or not), so anyone out of line had a big bullseye on their back.

I did take your word. I thought we were screwed at that point and we more or less were. I guess I needed to have made a move earlier than I did, but I just wasn't ready to commit to pretending to be a special when you made the call for them to contact you.

Kraegor · Post by **Kraegor** » Fri Oct 27, 2006 4:24 pm

then of course i sent mana from heaven by voting for pharaoh :p

yossar · Post by **yossar** » Fri Oct 27, 2006 4:24 pm

Remus West wrote:Yeah that shocked me. When you voted nameless I figured they would all have to shrug and jump on the pile then they voted for the one player you said had been explicitly cleared by the Devil.

At that point I only knew that Zurai was a lightbringer.

Please tell me Usul isn't the other lightbringer, I thought to myself when I saw who the other two who voted for Drazzil were. But of course he was.

Remus West · Post by **Remus West** » Fri Oct 27, 2006 5:17 pm

yossar wrote:
Remus West wrote:Yeah that shocked me. When you voted nameless I figured they would all have to shrug and jump on the pile then they voted for the one player you said had been explicitly cleared by the Devil.
At that point I only knew that Zurai was a lightbringer.

Please tell me Usul isn't the other lightbringer, I thought to myself when I saw who the other two who voted for Drazzil were. But of course he was.

Did you not PM Zurai in the first round and tell him who you were?

Zurai · Post by **Zurai** » Fri Oct 27, 2006 5:27 pm

He did, but we decided to wait a couple rounds just to make sure it wasn't an extreme gamble - and by that point things were getting hectic and I just plum forgot to contact him.

I made a few rookie (stupid-ass) mistakes.

Genghis · Post by **Genghis** » Fri Oct 27, 2006 5:28 pm

Nope, had they tried to whack drazzil instead of me that last night he would have been protected. I was hoping they might target him, thinking he was the shadow waiting in the background.
I was the shadow, think my picks for protection were remus west, msteelers,phaoroh,caine,drazzil.

Of those one worked out, and it was probibly the thing that saved us.

Drazzil · Post by **Drazzil** » Fri Oct 27, 2006 5:40 pm

Oh, and I was pretty sure Drazzil was gonna back out of backing out, too double lame.

Not cool man. I could have been removed,voted out, hell, you light types could have murdered me, or I could have been taken out of the game by chaosraven's ruling, none of the above happened, so I was perfectly justified in coming back.

The next game however ((If I play a next game)) I wont be bowing out of.

[/quote]

Caine · Post by **Caine** » Fri Oct 27, 2006 6:03 pm

so, we are still waiting for cr to come in and finish this up? remus, call his butt and get him in here

btw, up until the second to last round, i had yossar and usul equal in suspicion for being light bringers. part of what decided it was when you both went after kraegor with very little explanation. it was a red flag for conspiring against him, and i felt he didn't warrant

then cr told me that the victim would be protected from death. genghis was killed that night protecting kraegor, which couldn't have happened if kraegor was the lightbringer, according to what cr said. he wouldn't vote for the lightbringer that round as it would lose him the game. i figured that at some point the hopeful would have learned the id's of the holy ones and therefore would be voting alongside them. zurai's votes tied in nicely to yossar's and usul's, which implicated both of you. in the end, i went with my gut and picked usul.

of course, if cr comes in now and reveals a different possibility, i'll vote for him in grund's game every round.

Zurai · Post by **Zurai** » Fri Oct 27, 2006 6:06 pm

Drazzil wrote:Not cool man. I could have been removed,voted out, hell, you light types could have murdered me, or I could have been taken out of the game by chaosraven's ruling, none of the above happened, so I was perfectly justified in coming back.

In my opinion - and this is JUST my opinion unless anyone else cares to share it - you broke trust twice. Once by withdrawing from a game you'd commited to once it was already well in progress, and then again by un-withdrawing and stirring the pot (and not even paying attention to what phase of the game it was, forcing our hand, which might well have had an impact on the game) once things started getting heated.

You should have stayed in the game in the first place and just been silent; barring that, you should NOT have come back. Coming back, in the time and place and manner you did, was just not cool on top of the not cool of leaving in the first place.

Again, that's just my opinion. Others probably don't care as much; I tend to be a real stickler for things like that.

Caine · Post by **Caine** » Fri Oct 27, 2006 6:15 pm

i'm just glad he came back in time to change his vote. sure, it sucks when someone's free time changes and he has signed up for one of these, but as long as he comes back and puts effort in when it counts, i can forgive absence. plus, it threw enough target confusion to the mob on whether to axe him or not. plus, it clued me in to the alphabet squad.

Zurai · Post by **Zurai** » Fri Oct 27, 2006 6:20 pm

Absence I have no problem forgiving. Leaving the game and coming back, and on top of that coming back and breaking the rules by voting during the off-cycle when he's the swing vote, forcing us to show our hand just in case chaosraven let it slide, was not kosher. IMO.

Zurai · Post by **Zurai** » Fri Oct 27, 2006 6:25 pm

I realize I sound like a sore loser here. Really, I'm not at all upset at losing - I expected to lose. This was my first game and I made some truly stupid mistakes.

Mistakes I made:

Not bringing yossar into the fold earlier
Not enough discussion with teammates
Too quick to vote, didn't think things through 100%
Trusting my luck when I picked Caine for the crucial light cycle killing

The game could have been better in the early stages (due to how slow it was), but the end game was great fun and I'm really looking forward to Grund's and Setaside's games.

msteelers · Post by **msteelers** » Fri Oct 27, 2006 6:31 pm

Zurai wrote:Absence I have no problem forgiving. Leaving the game and coming back, and on top of that coming back and breaking the rules by voting during the off-cycle when he's the swing vote, forcing us to show our hand just in case chaosraven let it slide, was not kosher. IMO.

Technically he didn't leave the game. Chaosraven said he was still going to be a part of it, and we could either lynch him or the light ones could murder him, but he wasn't going to be kicked out of the game. His vote during the day didn't count towards anything, another thing Chaos specifically said.

And you had already played your hand well before that. I was alive and I my list of suspects was you, Usul, and yossar. Nameless was a guess based off of the list Remus had posted. I knew from PMs that some on the list were specials, and could not be lights, so I had a 50/50 chance. I guessed correctly.

What he did was no different than what happens in a lot of other games where a player gets too busy in real life. He said to do whatever to him...we let him live.

Zurai · Post by **Zurai** » Fri Oct 27, 2006 6:37 pm

msteelers wrote:His vote during the day didn't count towards anything, another thing Chaos specifically said.

Sure, but put yourself in our shoes. He's a swing vote, comes back and votes to kill one of "our side". If you aren't paying close attention, you might well think that night time has come again and voting was legal, which I think is why Usul posted his vote. Once Usul did that, I basically had to follow through because he'd already revealed who we didn't kill that light cycle and at that point we didn't know the Shadow had succeeded. I'd be VERY interested to know if Genghis had already sent in his protection choice at that point. If he hadn't, and he made his choice based off our vote for Kraegor, that gave you guys a massive advantage.

msteelers · Post by **msteelers** » Fri Oct 27, 2006 6:39 pm

Zurai wrote:I realize I sound like a sore loser here. Really, I'm not at all upset at losing - I expected to lose. This was my first game and I made some truly stupid mistakes.

Mistakes I made:

Not bringing yossar into the fold earlier
Not enough discussion with teammates
Too quick to vote, didn't think things through 100%
Trusting my luck when I picked Caine for the crucial light cycle killing

The game could have been better in the early stages (due to how slow it was), but the end game was great fun and I'm really looking forward to Grund's and Setaside's games.

I think there were only 2 mistakes you guys made as a whole. One was not trying to infiltrate my group. It would have been hard, but it is possible. Because I didn't have 2 people claiming to be the same special, I figured everyone was kosher. If I would have had that, there would have taken a lot longer to get the group together.

Second was when you guys voted as a block. That wouldn't have been too bad, but it was always against what the bigger block of specials were voting for. It really was just warning flags and put a bullseye on your back.

But really I think you guys were screwed from the beginning. Remus posted the strategy of me revealing myself, killing someone to prove I am telling the truth, and then linking everyone up behind the scenes, and that is an almost perfect strategy. I don't know how as a good guy to play against that, honestly.

In a game without PMs, I think this is a great role, but with PMs it is almost too powerful...IMO.

Zurai · Post by **Zurai** » Fri Oct 27, 2006 6:49 pm

msteelers wrote:But really I think you guys were screwed from the beginning. Remus posted the strategy of me revealing myself, killing someone to prove I am telling the truth, and then linking everyone up behind the scenes, and that is an almost perfect strategy. I don't know how as a good guy to play against that, honestly.

Yeah, I was thinking along those lines myself but I figured since no one else mentioned it, maybe it was my inexperience talking. That, and I didn't realize until Pharaoh's alphabet soup revelation that the Devil was so powerful (ANY y/n question). I think those two combined would have made things hard for us even if we played perfectly.

That said I have no real regrets, and no hard feelings (despite giving Drazzil a hard time). I had fun, and that's what counts

yossar · Post by **yossar** » Fri Oct 27, 2006 7:29 pm

Another reason I was hesitant to try to infiltrate msteeler's group is because of how powerful the Devil is. One question and I'm dead. It would have only bought the good guys one round. Looking back, it just seems like if you don't eliminate the Devil and/or Night's Vengeance early, it's really hard to win.

Caine · Post by **Caine** » Fri Oct 27, 2006 7:36 pm

yeah, i really enjoyed this one.

i say we lynch chaosraven next though. he's taking way too long to post

as msteelers said, when you all voted as block against us, it made you a lot more suspicious than if you had stayed silent.

if pharoah hadn't been killed, we would have ended this quite earlier i think. he, genghis and i were deciding whether to have me claim devil status when you all lynched him. even then though, yossar and usul were heavily suspected. we just didn't know who was who.

msteelers · Post by **msteelers** » Fri Oct 27, 2006 8:14 pm

Caine wrote: even then though, yossar and usul were heavily suspected. we just didn't know who was who.

I was thinking that both were lightbringers at one time...but then I noticed that yossar was trying too hard to look guilty, and he must have been the decoy. It was well played (IMO).

I think the good guys best chance of infiltrating the group would have been to have the demon who is working with the hopeful and one holy one contact me. The holy one pretends to be the devil, and the hopeful the Shadow. It causes enough confusion where I can't trust either of those guys (which are really the two I wanted to tell because they can do the most with that information). I would be forced to tell someone else everything I knew, and even THEN they cannot fully trust anyone for a few turns, and not without revealing themselves to the holy ones again to finish "testing" them.