[Fallen2] Game over... Night still eternal

Remus West · Post by **Remus West** » Fri Oct 27, 2006 8:24 pm

2 things.

First for Caine. Chaosraven is at work so you will be waiting until tomorrow since he does not have access there and is working a midnight shift. Sorry.

Second. What msteelers said. The light were screwed from the beginning in this one as the Fallen should have been in the original. Any power that can prove beyond a doubt to every player that you are on the side of the village is broken in a PM game. It makes the basic block the seer is working from huge. Sure the opened player will not live through 2 nights but the powers will all be hooked up and the seer will have a much narrower field to choose his visions from. When we did the original fallen game we got lucky to nail Ralph during the night even though it cost us Noxiousdog simply because he never exercised his power during the day.

Frighteningly enough to me was the fact the Light almost overcame that. I figured with the number of powereds left all the Devil needed was to identify one more active fallen and then say "here is our block. We are bigger than you and will be killing one of you a night until you are gone. You will never get back ahead of us since you only get to kill one of us a day." A 6-5 advantage known to unknown is unbeatable.

Pharaoh · Post by **Pharaoh** » Fri Oct 27, 2006 8:40 pm

I made some mistakes in the beginning not communicating with enough people, as I was sure tons of people would be spamming complete lies about their real roles.

I felt I couldn't come out as the Devil directly, but rather felt if I would act like an incompitent messenger from the Devil, I can both give seer info, and pass the buck from suspicion of the Light forces. Using this theory, I was hoping over time, people would reveal things that would help us target the Light.

Of course, due to the time it took for the game to actually get rolling, this didn't happen. I think the outcome was far too close for how simple it should have been, and I was really worried we wouldn't blow Zurai and company outta their foxholes when they revealed themselves on the Devil Lynching.

Drazzil, I agree with Zurai that him coming back was bad form, and probally hurt more than it helped. I don't mind that much as Drazz I'm sure has good reasons, but the Light deserved their shot to win considering how bad the Darkness played toward the end.

msteelers · Post by **msteelers** » Fri Oct 27, 2006 8:59 pm

Pharaoh wrote:I made some mistakes in the beginning not communicating with enough people, as I was sure tons of people would be spamming complete lies about their real roles.

I felt I couldn't come out as the Devil directly, but rather felt if I would act like an incompitent messenger from the Devil, I can both give seer info, and pass the buck from suspicion of the Light forces. Using this theory, I was hoping over time, people would reveal things that would help us target the Light.

Of course, due to the time it took for the game to actually get rolling, this didn't happen. I think the outcome was far too close for how simple it should have been, and I was really worried we wouldn't blow Zurai and company outta their foxholes when they revealed themselves on the Devil Lynching.

Drazzil, I agree with Zurai that him coming back was bad form, and probally hurt more than it helped. I don't mind that much as Drazz I'm sure has good reasons, but the Light deserved their shot to win considering how bad the Darkness played toward the end.

I'm really surprised the light didn't get you earlier Pharoah. Maybe it was that I knew you were the devil, but I thought you were all but saying, "I am the Devil." Even coming forward as "the devils spokesman" would usually get you killed in other games. I'm wondering if they were hoping they could get people to vote for you, since a lot of people seemed to doubt you. Remus had sent me a PM saying how he thought you were guilty. I was going to tell him to not vote for you...but he was killed that night, so it didn't matter.

Oh, and good job exploiting the devil's question. In other games I've played it is a yes/no question about a person's specific role in the game. Your questions quickly narrowed down our list of suspects, especially when combined with the large known demon block in the background.

yossar · Post by **yossar** » Fri Oct 27, 2006 10:24 pm

msteelers wrote:I was thinking that both were lightbringers at one time...but then I noticed that yossar was trying too hard to look guilty, and he must have been the decoy. It was well played (IMO).

I wasn't trying to look guilty per se, but I was trying to sow some confusion in a game that at the time looked like it was heading for a very predictable end (with the bad guys winning). And if I happened to be killed, better me than a lightbringer. The game started off pretty boring but the end was a lot of fun.

Remus West · Post by **Remus West** » Fri Oct 27, 2006 11:44 pm

msteelers wrote:I'm really surprised the light didn't get you earlier Pharoah. Maybe it was that I knew you were the devil, but I thought you were all but saying, "I am the Devil." Even coming forward as "the devils spokesman" would usually get you killed in other games. I'm wondering if they were hoping they could get people to vote for you, since a lot of people seemed to doubt you. Remus had sent me a PM saying how he thought you were guilty. I was going to tell him to not vote for you...but he was killed that night, so it didn't matter.

The PM i sent you said unless you knew better I thought he was guilty. I had earlier sent Pharoah a PM saying that his first post made him look very close to being the Devil. I think I worded it as hoping the Devil had taken a big chance on him because were I a lightbringer that post would have sealed his doom. Had I been a lightbringer I would have played it exactly as I did except instead of calling for you to kill someone I would have posted a request for the devil to give you the name of a lightbringer brefore you "waste" your power, then I would have killed Pharoah that night under the assumption that you would be gaurded and gone after you the next.

Chaosraven · Post by **Chaosraven** » Sat Oct 28, 2006 1:05 am

Actually I worked afternoons today...

Chaosraven · Post by **Chaosraven** » Sat Oct 28, 2006 1:14 am

Yossar bowed his head, knowing his fear had come true... the remaining Brethren gathered around UsulofDoom and drew their ebon blades.

"This is not the end!" shouted their former comrade "The light shall return to end this damned night... I know our message has reached the ears of others and our sacrifice will not go in vain!"

And with that he exploded in a blinding flash of Holy Light...

The Fallen Have Won.

Our cast:

Demons:
Kraegor
pr0ner
tru1cy
drazzil
remus west
arcanis

The Fallen:
Pharaoh : The Devil (part reassigned at start)
Caine: Guardian of Lore
Msteelers : Nights Vengeance
Genghis : Shadow
Bakhtosh : Wraith

Lightbringers:
Zurai
UsulofDoom
Nameless

Hopeful: Yossar

Chaosraven · Post by **Chaosraven** » Sat Oct 28, 2006 1:48 am

First Execution: Arcanis
First Victim: Bakhtosh

Murdered: tru1cy
Second Execution: pr0ner
Second Victim: remus west

Third Execution: Nameless (light)
Third Victim: msteelers

Fourth Execution: pharaoh
Fourth Victim: ((protected))

Fifth Execution: Zurai (light)
Fifth Victim: genghis

Sixth Execution: UsulofDoom (light)

Chaosraven · Post by **Chaosraven** » Sat Oct 28, 2006 1:54 am

Some things which caught my fancy from this side of things...

Clever use of the expanded power I gave the seer... kudos to pharaoh

the title "kill him dam it!" for the light cycle victim

The opposed messages for the night protection worked... knowing it was "over" the shadow Hopes for the Hail Mary Save... meanwhilethe light Hopes they don't meet up with the shadow or wraith.

Drazzils return and amazement to find he is not only still alive, but The Savior of the Brethren.

Zurai playing the bored Fallen waiting for the game to continue.

So how was your collection of guesses and suspicions played out?

Drazzil · Post by **Drazzil** » Sat Oct 28, 2006 2:55 am

I am truly sorry if I broke the rules with my first vote, that was stupid of me, truly assinine. My deepest apologies for that.

I am also sorry for leaving the game. I work two part time jobs, and I go to college more then full time. My time is EXTREMELY limited. Im lucky if I get fifteen minutes worth of free time a day to do as I please.

That said: Pharoh and Zurai: At any point you folks could have voted me out, I could have been removed from the game by chaosraven. I could have been murdered as a pretty much known unpowered demon, as when I left my powers would have been passed to someone else if my absence had been truly unbalancing.

However I do think that you folks made a mistake by not considering me a threat. You very much exploited, for the entire game, the fact that I was not voting by not murdering me when you had the chance. For the entire game the "bad guys" were one vote behind, and one player under. You ignored me despite being told that I was NOT to be removed from the game, explicitly.

So, I am not sorry for coming back when I did. I was however fully and completely justified in pulling for my team when I did. I do not regret coming back, and would do so again.

I may come back for the next one, you run a good game chaosraven.

Chaosraven · Post by **Chaosraven** » Sat Oct 28, 2006 3:30 am

For the record, you broke no rule by "voting" out of turn.

I explicitly explained that gametalk and PMs were allowed "throughout" in the outlay of the rules.

Speaking after you are dead and giving away information or attempting to sway someone's vote would be, though not explicitly stated.

The game would have been completely different had the kill not been stopped, as it would have left 6 players rather than seven, and my majority for an even number is based on ties with the first person to reach the number is the majority. At that point there would have been a batch of three able to railroad the next execution by jumping the vote first (after all, they pretty well *know* who they "trust" while the village did not have that cohesion to orchestrate that level of trust under the racing time constraint)

Was it timely? Yes. But the moment the tide shifted was the Shadow preventing the Light Cycle kill when all seemed lost.

To my mind, pharaoh sacrificed himself to "out" the enemy and essentially turned it into a 3 out of 4 choice for those who were already in the trusted group.

Hindsight is 20/20 and I learn much from this side of the gamemasters screen (having access to lots more info than the players factwise, but allowing PMs keeps the players able to hide things from me as far as rumors speculation and suspicions).

I very deliberately "powered" up this game.

I expanded the ability of the seer in the Devil and wanted to see how someone would utilize it.

I scaled back the protector (no reciprocal kill, either fight during protection or retribution for own death) and gave him a backup (who unfortunately got killed first...)

I denied the villagers any initial block (no masons)

I upped the power of the "priest" to know ALL roles of those who died.

I enjoy the "assassin" role as it gives a one shot reveal on which side the player is on, much as a medium that is exposed... you KNOW you can trust him, and the enemy knows he MUST kill him. and the killing blow is pretty random depending on when it is used. As evidenced in the death of tru1cy (who once again was *not* a bad guy... and boy was I tempted to just MAKE him one rather than randomly determining roles

)

The bad guys were given a "sorceror/mason" that was not able to seek answers (no question ability given) but able to start as a powerful voting block with 4 of 15 off the bat.

I would appreciate any comments regarding opinions on the abilities or rules or clarifications of this version (which was very different from my first one)

yossar · Post by **yossar** » Sat Oct 28, 2006 7:08 am

I think the Devil is way too powerful. Scale him back a bit and I think the game works ok.

Remus West · Post by **Remus West** » Sat Oct 28, 2006 10:21 am

Night's Vengence is way way to powerful in a PM game. As I said earlier, any power that can prove beyond a doubt you are on the village's side creates a huge voting block instantly. Were I the Night's Vengence I would have simply waited for the first person to claim to be a powerless demon, made sure of their claim by telling them who I was and that I was planning on killing them, then killed them. Even if you don't get a lighted one you do hook everyone up for that round and the next stacking the deck huge against the other side. But then again I don't try to live through these things, I try to get my side to win.

Pharaoh · Post by **Pharaoh** » Sat Oct 28, 2006 12:34 pm

I agree the Devil was overpowered, but not his ability for questions as much as that he could ask ANY question. To give the Light/Werewolves more hope, I'd give them the ability to ask one seer question as well the entire game, but thats it. The only restriction being it can't be a direct "is so/so a villager?", but rather a blanket question like I was using. THis gives them some form of strategy earlier in the game to lay down to the B.S.

Overall good game, sorry it took forever to get rolling, but it came together nicely in the end. Bravo all!

Kraegor · Post by **Kraegor** » Mon Oct 30, 2006 9:46 am

genghis was killed that night protecting kraegor, which couldn't have happened if kraegor was the lightbringer, according to what cr said

"I" was the protected? ROFL..... He killed the devil, protect him!!

------------------

as for the drazzil debate, well...more than one person has dropped out of a game w/o any notice, so at least Drazzil had the courtesy to give a warning. I can easily see how a forum game can fall to the back seat of priorities.

His absence provided me a humor outlet at least...

-------------

I think the main light mistake was not bluffing. Course bluffing is teh hard...

Chaosraven · Post by **Chaosraven** » Mon Oct 30, 2006 9:53 am

I figure when the Good Guy comes out, the light need to each decide which "special" to be and announce themselves to the Outed Good Guy.

One pretends to be the Devil, One the Shadow, and One the Guardian of Lore.

Those three can't truly be proven in public so it would weaken the potential link between the ... hmmm... you guys realize I mean Good Guy as Fallen and not Light, right?

Remind me not to mix these things up like that again

Zurai · Post by **Zurai** » Mon Oct 30, 2006 9:57 am

Kraegor wrote:I think the main light mistake was not bluffing. Course bluffing is teh hard...

That's the reason I didn't try to bluff. This was my very first Werewolf game and I didn't feel I would be able to pull off a convincing bluff as one of the powered.

Kraegor · Post by **Kraegor** » Mon Oct 30, 2006 10:02 am

it does seem to me that if the Fallen are gonna do the "insta kill... you can trust me!" early setup. The Light absolutely must throw a wrench in the works by clamoring as imposters. there must be someone in place to cast doubt on the voting block.

As for the roles, altho the Fallen did have a good chunk of power, the game itself seemed like it played out pretty evenly to me. there was a time wherein it seemed the Light were guaranteed a win.

Remus West · Post by **Remus West** » Mon Oct 30, 2006 10:05 am

Kraegor wrote:As for the roles, altho the Fallen did have a good chunk of power, the game itself seemed like it played out pretty evenly to me. there was a time wherein it seemed the Light were guaranteed a win.

From the outside it looked like this was mostly a matter of miscommunication. With the lore guy to let msteelers know which powereds were still alive and no one coming forward to dispute any of them all the fallen needed was for the Devil to keep identifying specific demons. Either he nails a lighted or he adds one to the group. Pharoahs initial question was great in narrowing down the field to find the first lighted but afte that I think it is much more important to get a solid group of knowns together.

Chaosraven · Post by **Chaosraven** » Mon Oct 30, 2006 10:06 am

Without the Save by the Shadow, they most likely would have...

There would have been six 3 on 3 and first to 3 votes would break ties.
I imagine the Light would be able to come to a consensus before the fallen in that event.

yossar · Post by **yossar** » Mon Oct 30, 2006 2:17 pm

Chaosraven wrote:Without the Save by the Shadow, they most likely would have...

There would have been six 3 on 3 and first to 3 votes would break ties.
I imagine the Light would be able to come to a consensus before the fallen in that event.

Barring some miraculous timing by Drazzil I think that's a safe assumption. I was already opening the champaigne before the lightbringers failed to kill someone that day.

Chaosraven · Post by **Chaosraven** » Mon Oct 30, 2006 2:29 pm

Even with drazzil it would have been 3 fallen (who don't quite trust each other) and 2 light, 1 hopeful who could have bumrushed the vote with 3 quick for the same fallen. Then killed another that light cycle to win with 2 Light, 1 hopeful, 1 fallen.

As long as they didn't bumrush vote the hopeful, that is

Caine · Post by **Caine** » Mon Oct 30, 2006 3:24 pm

before i posted my final vote for usul and my suspicion of yossar, i told drazz to change his vote to usul and i told both him and kraegor what i was thinking, so they could form a final block if i was wrong. it wasn't so much drazzil's vote timing that was miraculous, but his logging in and seeing my pm.

i wasn't too worried as drazzil and kraegor had voted for each of them, so there was no way for them to be the dooming votes for anyone. their end game was in trying to get me to suspect kraegor.

genghis told me who he was going to vote for that night, so i knew (from cr) that he was not the lightbringer, and not likely to be the hopeful used as a sacrificial lamb.

it also helped that drazzil was a known demon and that the hopeful was known to still be alive. instead of 1 known and 4 potential suspects, it made it 2 known and 2 unknown allies.

Genghis · Post by **Genghis** » Mon Oct 30, 2006 5:21 pm

Up until I was able to protect caine from lynching, It looked like the light was going to win. Up until that point drazzil was MIA, i was looking at being dead, wich would have left caine alone with 3 unknowns.