Lars Werewolf Game 3: [Game is ended]

[The Meal]

In the other discussion thread, I laid out an idea for there to be multiple priests that I think could work out to be *very* interesting (but only in a game that disallowed private communication between non-masons and non-werewolves). Basically have some number of priests, possibly less-than-or-equal-to the number of WW's, and each night let each one individually select a corpse for which they'd like the role determined. Only in the cases where multiple priests select the same persons would they receive a reading. They would not find out the names of their fellow priests, nor would they be allowed private consultations.
~Neal

The problem with this is that once one of them dies, if there are only 3, the chances of them picking the same target drop radically. The same is ture after the first turn when the number of unknown dead increases for each individual priest. Even if they manage to get a vision each night they are still only knowing half of the dead so realistically they will not know the roles of that many people.

Likely more than the zero or one total as the current rules dictate!

And nothing would prevent persons from saying "burn your incense over Leigh's obit tonight" in the thread, were folks wanting to act priestly or pretend to be priestly or whatever.

I am going to wait on Chaosraven's game where he has someone knowing all of the roles of the dead to decide if that is to much knowledge for one special or not.

Again, recall that this information would not be PM-able. A trusted bloc would have to form around the priests for the information be become truly useful...

~Neal

[Remus West]

I am intrigued by the idea, just trying to poke holes to find out what happens when we poke it.

[Chaosraven]

My night-by-night thoughts on who to kill:

2. I wanted Grund dead, but was told that suspicion for him was building & the village would lynch him.

What am I, LoCarb Grundbegrif?

[Mr Bubbles]

My night-by-night thoughts on who to kill:

2. I wanted Grund dead, but was told that suspicion for him was building & the village would lynch him.

What am I, LoCarb Grundbegrif?

You're dessert.. Grund was the main course and ND was the appetizer.

[Chaosraven]

Don't you wolves know enough to eat dinner *before* dessert?

Miss Manners oughtta smack your fuzzy butts with an ettiquette stick!

FWIW:

Of the 3 lists I have for the Wolves,
none of them had all 3 remaining wolves...

but each had 2 outta three. each one different.

[Remus West]

Do all three have Crux as one of the wolves? I know the list I sent you did.

[Chaosraven]

Mine was the third which did not. The ones sent to me did indeed have crux.

[LordMortis]

Don't you wolves know enough to eat dinner *before* dessert?

A number of places do dessert first which I think is cool and they do salad last as well.

[Chaosraven]

Don't you wolves know enough to eat dinner *before* dessert?

A number of places do dessert first which I think is cool and they do salad last as well.

great googly moogly haven't you posted enough in this thread?

[Remus West]

Mine was the third which did not. The ones sent to me did indeed have crux.

So are you going to post the damn lists or not?

[ezmate]

What lists are y'all talking about?

[Mr Bubbles]

What lists are y'all talking about?

I think there is a list of people who put out in the OO bathroom.

[Remus West]

Right before I died I had sent Chaosraven a list of the "wolves" I "knew". It seems he has two more, one of his own and one other. Those are the lists.

Mine was:

nameless
Crux ( )
Kraegor
Mr Bubbles

I would like to say that if I has lived I would have put ezmate in there for Crux as the very next day as he pushed for the LM wolf thing I became certain he was a wolf but the reality is I would have dropped Mr Bubbles from the list. Damn conniving French.

[yossar]

By the way, this was the best game I have played yet.

I disagree

Not sure I could have handled 40+ pages of werewolf anyway...

[The Meal]

Until I see Grund's post-mortem, I'm going to foul this thread with this image.



~N

[Lars]

Meal, thanks for those pics you posted. Those are hilarious. That "Fear and Loathing" picture makes me laugh everytime I see it.

I asked Grund permission to post this PM he sent me just before Nameless was lynched. He sent it to me in response to my question of who he thought was lying and who was telling the truth.

(Don't worry Grund, I fixed the typos and the other slip for you. )

My initial strategy was to pretend to be the Sorcerer, since each side has a reason to keep the Sorcerer alive. My strategic goal was to stay alive long enough to gather relevant clues and stir up information, and then to brain-dump when it looked as if my goose was cooked. That's pretty much the way things played out, except that I died one turn earlier than I had anticipated. I think my strategy was sound, given that I was a simple villager.

Early in the game, I detected something odd in posts by Nameless and LordMortis. Each was dropping Seer-like hints. I inferred that each might be either the Seer or a Sorcerer/Wolf. I decided that attacking each of them made sense: if my target was guilty, calling attention to him would prevent the villagers from trusting him; if my target was innocent and the Seer, then leading the villagers to mistrust him would throw the Werewolves off the scent and buy that Seer some time.

At a certain point in the game, both Nameless and LordMortis were asserting with certainty that I was a simple villager, a "hardcore human". It was clear to me then that even if my Pretend-To-Be-The-Sorcerer strategy had helped conserve my life up to that point, it was no longer working. With suspicious people going out of their way, for one reason or another, to call attention to the fact that there was no reason to keep me alive, I was confident I would die that night. This is, in fact, what came to pass.

I responded with an info dump. I accused LordMortis of being the Sorcerer (though, as I told The Meal and Leigh, I was open to the idea that he might be a Seer) to cast further suspicion/protection on him (since a dead Sorcerer, like a dead Seer, harms the Village team). I cast suspicion on Nameless.

I tried to cast heavy suspicion on Nameless for the same reason that I had done that to LordMortis: if he was a wolf, nobody would trust him, and if he was the Seer, the villagers' mistrust of him would cloak him from the wolves.

I tried to exonerate Genghis, Orinoco, and Soulbrother#1 (who was, I believe, a simple villager).

Right before my death, I posted and then deleted a "Story of Bakhtosh" that contained only a single item: a link to a post in which Bakhtosh very suspiciously said (as he did again later) "I wish I could PM"). As I explained to Leigh in private, I believe the only person who would wish to PM was the Hunter, and for that reason only a bumbling Hunter would out himself like that. However, a Wolf might wish to seem like a hunter. I inferred that Bakhtosh was possibly a Werewolf dropping subtle hints of Hunterhood, but was more likely the real Hunter.

Well, Nameless saw my post about Bakhtosh in the brief moments before I deleted it, and he asked about it in the thread. He even mentioned it again later. If Bakhtosh and Nameless are both evil, that post probably sealed my fate that night (if there had been any doubt in the wolves' mind).

In any event, I tried to leave Remus with a short path to victory by showing him (a) whom to suspect and (b) how to filter information to detect innocents. I'm eager to learn how close to, or far from, the mark I was; I've assumed I was close because I was killed one night earlier than I expected.

Regardless of how close or far my info was from the truth, I'm afraid I cannot say that Remus made the best use of my bequest....

My favorite scenario is this one: Nameless, Kraegor, Mr Bubbles, and X are wolves, where X = Crux xor pr0ner xor ezmate (in that order). In that scenario, either LordMortis or some Dead Guy would be the Sorcerer, Soulbrother#1 would be an innocent, and the Priest and Hunter would be long since dead (unless Bakhtosh were a hapless Hunter).

A slight variant of my favorite scenario has Nameless as the Sorcerer, a possibility folks in the thread after my death have pretty much overlooked. Who better to emulate a Seer than a Sorcerer?

My second favorite scenario is this: Nameless is the Seer. Wolves = Kraegor, Mr Bubbles, ezmate, and pr0ner. LordMortis is the Sorcerer. Priest and Hunter are long since dead (unless Bakhtosh were a hapless Hunter).

I guess Bakhtosh could be duplicitous, but he plays as if he's an enthusiastic, overzealous innocent. My gut tells me he's the Hunter. Meanwhile, everything evidential about ezmate tells me that he's an innocent, but my guts (and the fight he and pr0ner picked with me just before my death) tell me he is a Werewolf!

My final list of people to discuss, posted just before my death, included LordMortis (italicized), Nameless, Kraegor, Mr Bubbles, and Crux. Crux, I admit, was based on a hunch having to do with the fact that I was tolerated rather than killed--something Crux would do.

If I had had more time, I would've posted a note about each of those people.

[Grundbegriff]

(Don't worry Grund, I fixed the typos and the other slip for you. )

Thanks for taking care of that. I dislike being unable to fix 'em myself.

Here's a further summary I sent to Nameless when he and I discussed things after his lynching:

Hi Nameless,

Thanks for your reply! We should probably also post this into the thread after the fat lady sings. The lurkers who have followed the drama from the beginning would probably find it as interesting as we do.

(Hopefully, Nameless'll pop in and share the story of how his thinking and strategy evolved over the course of the game.)

....

Here's what happened from my vantage.

Based on the factors mentioned in the StratGuide I posted on page 4 or 5, I figured that Seer and Sorcerer were the most important concepts in the game. Given the prohibition on PMs, the only way for the Sorcerer to be useful was to make himself known to the Wolves, and the only way for the Wolves to acknowledge and reassure the Sorcerer was for their spokeswolf to make himself known to the Sorcerer.

I decided to set a trap. I chose to pretend to be the Sorcerer from the beginning for two reasons. The first was to conserve my life long enough to gather and dump some useful lore: I figured that of all the roles, only the Sorcerer was potentially valuable to both sides and therefore most likely to be kept alive. The second was to set bait: I reckoned that if I dropped a few semi-conspicuous hints (such as "I might be spreading FUD"), odds were good that some Wolf would drop a counterhint to let me know that I didn't have to escalate the obviousness.

When you said "I see what you're doing", which fit the profile of a counterhint, I guessed that you were either a Wolf or a Seer (or, something I considered less seriously, a Sorcerer taking me to be a Wolf). I suspected Wolf because my trap predisposed me to do so, but I wasn't yet sure.

My strategy for handling either a Sorcerer or Seer was going to be to cast heavy suspicion on that person in order to achieve either of two desirable goals: an actual quarantine on the Sorcerer or a protective/misleading/time-buying pseudo-quarantine on the Seer.

That's what I did try with LordMortis, and it's what I would've tried with you if I had remained open to the possibility that you were a Seer. However, reflecting on certain moves you made finally convinced me you were Lycanthropic.

I decided early on to start laying the groundwork for claiming to be the seer. That particular statement was there because I figured you'd pick up on it and start paying closer attention to my posts. At first I figured I'd just subtly hint at being the seer, and hopefully I'd have your support later on down the line.

Your strategy was excellent, and your execution impressive. Particularly effective was the calm, rational demeanor you maintained regardless of circumstance. (I took the same approach in Crux's Mafia game, which probably predisposed me to see it as inauthentic. However, I emphasized to Leigh in PM not long ago that you were so effectively misleading that you could probably persuade anyone of anything.)

Looking over some of the advice you'd given the village, it actually didn't really seem all that helpful. So I started considering the possibility that you were actually the sorceror. I managed to sell the others on it, which is why you didn't die the second night.

As I had hoped. I'm glad to learn that my strategy worked.

If only I had had a better strategy for persuading Remus.... I felt I had set him up nicely, and was disappointed after my death to discover that he hadn't actually been grokking my move after all.

After the night, I figured that if you were the sorceror, you had probably scanned me and determined that I was a wolf. There was a post of yours I read as confirmation of this, where you mentioned that "Remus and Nameless have the right idea, keep me around as long as I seem useful," or something like that.

You're sensitive to subtle clues. That's uncommon and nice to see.

At the time I wrote that, I was indeed convinced you were a Wolf and was regarding you and Remus as leaders of your respective sides. I figured making that explicit would look Sorcerously helpful.

I also started to consider another possibility: that you were the seer, had scanned me, and that you were acting like the sorceror in order to fool me. The next day you posted that you'd been acting like the sorceror in order to fool the wolves. You also had a few comments that left me rather convinced of your sorcerorocity. Around here is when we were arguing back and forth, which obviously was me trying to feel you out a bit.

I was snippy and impudent toward you as you were asking those questions. By this time, I was reckoning that my lease on life was short and was trying to signal Remus of my strong suspicions using rhetoric that tilted against you but that you might regard as a Sorcerous attempt to say that I didn't think it safe to get too chatty with you.

I don't know whether you took it that way at any juncture, but it seems clear in retrospect that Remus totally missed the point of my sassy interaction with you.

On night four, I had three main possibilities:
1. You were an innocent who was paying particular attention to me.
2. You were the sorceror, and knew who I was.
3. You were the seer, and knew who I was.

I thought the second possibility the most likely, but the third was too dangerous to overlook.

The first was correct. However, your killing me was a good move for your team. Indeed, the fact that it was the good move for your team is one of the reasons I announced that I was not long to this world and started dumping info.

Did LordMortis's comments about me affect your decision to kill me, as I suspected they might? Or was he a Wolf all along, and not the Sorcerer?
(His recent plea that the Village finally kill him certainly seems Sorcerous).

I've been wondering this: did the belief after my death that I had probably been the Seer give you confidence that you could safely pose openly as Seer? Or did you do that, to save yourself from lynching, in the belief that the Seer was still out there?

by pledging to always follow Remus' suggestions, you'd limited your usefulness to us if you were the sorceror. I decided it was the safe bet to kill you, even if I did think it likely you were on our side.

Sounds like I might've eked out one more day, had I worried less about LordMortis's apparent outing of me. That's ironic since I told Lars that I had expected, for other reasons, to have one more day.

Incidentally, letting you live that long was not a popular decision among the wolf sector. You seem to have built up something of a reputation.

Some of the wolves who have played with me before know that I pursue victory aggressively and do so, contrary to LordMortis's claims about me, by any means (within the fiction) necessary.

You're the only player I've worked with so far whose playing style, tactics, and approach seem to me similar to mine. If your teammates reckon I'm a problem, you tell 'em I said that they should keep an eye on you next time y'all are in a game together. After all, you might no longer be their friend, and you're clearly a dangerous guy.

[ezmate]

Damn, reading this makes me feel like a brute swinging a club. No subtlety what-so-ever!

Nice exchange their, though.

Grund, when I told you that I didn't see the "multiple layers" in your posts, I was being serious. Now, with your play-by-play, I see some of what I missed.

Nicely done.

[Remus West]

My only question for Grund is this, if you knew you were going to die then why not give a friggin label to some of those lists. Not that I don't feel like an idiot for not paying more attention to them but a label would have seriously helped and since you knew the wolves would be keyed in on what they were why take the chance of the others villagers missing out on the information. Even had you been way off it would have been helpful to know what they were about. And the fact that I chose to lynch Orinoco while you were alive should have clued you into the fact that I did not know what the lists were or Kraegor, Crux, or Mr Bubbles would have been my target. You did a great job figuring all of that out as I still don't know how you got Bubbles that early but knowing you were going to die you could have given us more obvious opinions.

[Grundbegriff]

Here are some things that surprised me:

Bakhtosh plays in what one might call a blustery style. He aggressively pushes his favorite ideas (e.g., random selection throughout), reacts energetically when threatened, and goes out of his way to ensure that folks know where he stands on the issue of the moment.

Something about that style tilted me toward the idea that Bakhtosh was a non-Werewolf. (For this reason, when someone asked why Bakhtosh stood accused, I empasized that Bakhtosh was only regarded with suspicion because Nameless had declared him suspicious.) When Bakhtosh stated "Damn, I wish I could PM...", I felt sure that he was trying to drop some sort of hint, and inferred that he must have a special status.

I was wrong about that; he was just blustering.

I felt sure that Soulbrother#1 was not a Werewolf, for the reasons I gave in the thread. However, I also felt sure he was not really the Seer, and was surprised to learn that he actually was.

Sometime after my death, I had a forehead-slapping moment in which I realized that I should've trusted my gut about ezmate. I had wanted to believe he was a Werewolf because my Spidey Sense was tingling, but rational probing of his messages had given me nothing and I had talked myself out of it. Come to realize that ezmate is just annoyingly deceptive.

I wasn't at all surprised to learn that the Priest and Hunter had died early. All signs pointed to their absence. However, I was very surprised to learn that in addition to nailing a Mason right off the bat, the Wolves had also gained an advantage (however modest) from the first, nearly random, lynching.

I wasn't surprised that Orinoco was innocent (and wish I had had time to post the Story of Ori before he was voted into oblivion), but was a bit surprised to learn that he was the Hunter. Thanks for watching my back, Ori!

The most surprising thing of all for me was the seance. In my StratGuide on p. 4, I had noted that the Medium was almost as irrelevant as the Priest since the only Deader who would know anything would be a Mason and odds were against both having a Dead Mason and choosing to summon him:

__ The Medium, in collaboration with a majority of the Village, can give voice to the Dead. Everyone will know which Deaders were Werewolves, so the only risk here is that the Deader will be the Sorcerer and will lie. Odds of killing the Sorcerer and choosing him for the seance are slim. Thus, the Medium's value is chiefly in recuperating the lore of those slain early by Werewolves. However, under the present rules, nobody but a Mason will know much for quite some time. The Medium and seance are likely to be low-yield.

Amazingly, this rather fascinating game almost immediately coughed up that one unusual and unlikely exception: the Wolves did nail a Mason, he did know something relevant to the disputed issue (since the dispute was over Masonic status), and the Medium was able to play a significant role rather than remain "low-yield".

What are the odds? (Sit down, Neal! )

[Grundbegriff]

My only question for Grund is this, if you knew you were going to die then why not give a friggin label to some of those lists.

In retrospect, I think that would've been a good idea. I believed I was going to die that night rather than the following night-- one night earlier than I had expected. By not spelling it all out overtly, I was trying to leave open the possibility, however minor, that the Wolves might be confused enough to let me live one more night despite the fact that I had put most of their names up in neon. Indeed, I was still dropping "which team is he on"-related pseudo-sorcerous hints (as Genghis and Kraegor remarked) down to the wire, just in case.

Why did I want to live one more night? Simply because of Real Life. I was pressed for time because of work and life-logistics and wasn't able to do things on my death-day the way I had envisioned.

Here's how it was supposed to go:

1. During the night cycle, post a list of names including all those alive who were not absolutely known to be innocent. (In other words, exclude the dead, the Masons, and the Medium.) Remus correctly identified the nature of that initial list.
2. Post a subset of the original list including only the folks I had not mentally exonerated. (In other words, exclude the people I thought weren't werewolves/sorcerer, leaving only the latter).
3. Post a "Story of so-and-so" for each person I had exonerated, and then provide comments explaining how I got from the raw data to my conclusion.
4. Invoke the Sherlock Holmes abduction clause: if all the others have been eliminated, then the moss-covered, three-handled family gredunza must be whatever's left.
5. Confirm the guilt of the five remaining on the list by showing the weirdnesses in their StoryOfs.

It would've been glorious. It would've been impressive. It would've been mostly correct. It would've been... too much work.

I'd have needed that one more day.

It was unrealistically ambitious, given my schedule, so I compromised-- did what I could. I was moved to cut corners partly by reckoning what was feasible, and partly in response to the badgering from pr0ner and Bubbles.

Instead of step 2., I posted a list containing my suspects along with a few people whose "Story of so-and-so" exonerations I felt I could knock out in the time available to me. Soulbrother's and Genghis's went OK, though I decided not to include links to individual posts in the latter, as I had in the former. Orinoco's came too late to save him, and I felt bad because I knew that he was only on the list for purposes of illustration.

My Story of Bakhtosh contained only a single item: the link to his "I wish I could PM" message. I felt that this said everything. A wolf wouldn't do that, in an attempt to throw people off the scent, because that would reek of crude reverse-psychology. Only an innocent would say that.

So I posted it. But then, because it seemed to me that only an innocent Special would say such a thing-- perhaps to drop a hint about his status-- I deleted the post. Even though I wanted to show why I felt Bakhtosh was innocent, I wanted even more strongly to avoid outing a Special. (I thought he might be the hunter).

Nameless saw the post during the 30 seconds it was there. F5F5F5.... I felt bad about that, since if Bahktosh was innocent and was a Special, my short-lived posting might have outed him to my arch nemesis. I don't know whether Nameless took Bakhtosh's PM yearnings the way I had done, but Nameless's own nefarious agenda made the issue moot anyhow.

So then, that's why I didn't label my lists-- hoping to preserve some small chance of surviving the night so that I could finish doing 1-5 above and nail 4/5 of the wolfpack to the wall in a single epic braindump. As it turned out, the most that I could do were steps 1, 1.5 (the mixed list), and finally 2, with some illustrations from 3 thrown in to build confidence that the five I named in step 2 were backed by good reasons.

Not that I don't feel like an idiot for not paying more attention to them but a label would have seriously helped and since you knew the wolves would be keyed in on what they were why take the chance of the others villagers missing out on the information.

Honestly, because you had immediately understood the significance of my first list, I thought you'd see the point of my final list. You had reasoned rather carefully about various matters up to that point in the thread, and I had convinced myself that we were on a wavelength that turns out, in retrospect, to have been partly imaginary.

And the fact that I chose to lynch Orinoco while you were alive should have clued you into the fact that I did not know what the lists were

I indicated that he wouldn't have been my choice, but thought that by going along with you in his lynching-- a lynching the Wolves wouldn't find objectionable-- I might increase my odds of staying alive for one more day, so that I could Do Things Right.

You did a great job figuring all of that out as I still don't know how you got Bubbles that early but knowing you were going to die you could have given us more obvious opinions.

I think the combination of this and my nastiness toward Nameless here and especially my comments here made it pretty clear.

[Mr Bubbles]

I'll tell you this much.. even if I was innocent... I would have still not voted with the block.. Remus still thinking Im French!!

[Nameless]

I thought we had a pretty good team on the werewolf side. Ezmate and I were essentially unknowns, while Kraegor and MrBubbles were fairly low-profile. So the odds of suspicion falling on us right off the bat were fairly low.

The first night I argued against eating Grundbegriff, as I thought he'd be the most likely to be guarded (and I see I was right on that), and because he was such an obvious target, and therefore more suspicion would build up if he survived. I don't recall who suggested Noxiousdog, but I thought he was a good target, so I went along with it.

I started off the next day with a post in which I tried to throw at least a bit of suspicion on Grund, and tried to lay some groundwork to lynch yossar that day. A little bit after this I thought about how it would be possible to pick out the seer. I figured that without private messaging to rely on, the seer would have to subtly convey to people that they'd been cleared, without attracting the attention of the wolves.

And then I figured, hey, I could do that too. My existing post could be read as consistent with scanning Grund on night one, provided I reinforced it a little. So I decided to play the game as though I were the seer. I actually tried to act like I would had I actually been the seer, for the sake of consistency. So each night I "scanned" the people I thought were suspicious, and tried to convey this to them quietly. I also argued for the lynching of people I honestly thought were acting like wolves (except, of course, for the actual wolves).

Grund seemed to pick up on my hints pretty quickly, which was why I'd chosed him as my first "scannee". I would later find out he was actually setting a wolf-trap by pretending to be the sorceror, so we kind of ended up walking into each other. His act did pretty well, as I thought his initial strategies seemed to favor the wolves, and so argued to the others on night two that he might well be the sorceror.

LordMortis and Chaosraven had attracted my suspicions on that first day, so I suggested killing one of them. Both seemed somewhat "seer-ish" to me. I initially favored killing LM, but changed my mind just before talking to the others. Good thing, too.

On the second day, I argued for lynching Bakhtosh, as I thought his strategy sounded rather fishy. Then, when Zoltaire made his play, I shifted to him, because as the "seer" I knew he had to be lying. We decided to kill one of the unknowns that night in order to try to flush out the real seer. I thought Leigh was a good target because she seemed pretty good at figuring things out, and also because her list of suspicions proved to be a valuable tool. It looked reasonable, and the wolves could potentially have killed to cover it up, but there was only one actual wolf on it. I got some good use out of it over the next couple days.

On the third day, I started becoming more suspicious of Grundbegriff. I was pretty certain he knew I was a wolf, but I was becoming less certain that he was the sorceror. It occurred to me that he could be the seer playing at being the sorceror. Hence my arguments with him that day, as I tried to figure out what he was really up to. On the one hand, he still felt like the sorceror to me. On the other hand, he didn't seem to be very helpful.

That night, we were all agreed on killing Grund. While I still thought it was likely that he was the sorceror, the risk was enormous if he was actually the seer. And then there was the matter of his little list, which had three of us on it. We had to kill him before he could put a label on that list. As long as he died then, it could potentially have been a list of people he trusted, hence LM in italics as a known risk. Fortunately, the actual list ended up lost in the excitement of the next day.

The following day, of course, I revealed myself as the seer. I had actually hoped for another day, but Remus forced my hand. Though I may have forced his by asking when the seer should reveal himself. I'd "scanned" all actual innocents, as I figured there was a chance someone would lynch one to test me, and to cast suspicion on them if I ended up lynched. When Soulbrother contested my claim, that's when the setup I'd been working on proved its worth, as I felt I had a much better claim to being the seer than the actual seer did.

I had originally planned to scan ezmate as innocent that night, and one of the others the next night. My goal was to get down to the point where we had nine players, four of them wolves. At that point, I could claim that the four remaining unknowns were all wolves. Even if they managed to get one of the actual wolves at random, it'd only prove my point, and prolong the game another day.

Soulbrother changed things. I originally hoped to kill Remus that night, and I could argue things out with Soulbrother the next day. I thought I could put forth a better argument. However, there was the risk that he'd scan one of the wolves that night, so we decided it was safest to kill him.

I figured I was in trouble the next day, which is why I named Mark as innocent. I'd suggested that one of the other wolves request that we test my claim by killing one of my named innocents. It ended up not being relevant, as Remus went another way entirely. I think this was a crucial pivot in the game. Had Remus selected a wolf rather than Genghis, the numbers wouldn't have been on our side come the endgame.

That night we started killing off the masons. I hoped that we'd be able to get either LordMortis or pr0ner lynched, but figured there was a good chance I'd end up on the gallows. I may actually have outsmarted myself here. I figured me claiming pr0ner as a wolf just before outed as a wolf might actually cast suspicion on him. A triple bluff, if you will. I just don't think I made it obvious enough that I expected to die.

At that point, of course, I was lynched. I actually did try to cast a vote for myself, because at that point Kraegor and MrBubbles hadn't voted, and I was afraid it'd make them look suspicious once I turned out to be a wolf. After that there was a rally, and I almost got LM out there, but Tru1cy changed his vote at the last minute.

One admission I have to make: I never really believed LordMortis was the sorceror, right up until the point when we won the game. I thought he was an innocent playing at being the sorceror. I was terrified that he'd let all three of the others commit to a vote before revealing the truth, thus identifying all of them at once. Very glad I was wrong on that count.

Overall, a great game. I think the lack of PMs really made things more interesting, though you might consider giving at least something to the seer and sorceror. I'd like to thank my teammates and opponents alike for a well-played game. One thing I've realized, however: if I'm ever actually the seer in another game, no one is going to believe me.

[Soulbrother#1]

Great game! I am glad that I had an important role the first time around, it made me step up and play the field rather than sit back and watch what was going on. The problem I was having was that most of my guesses where shots in the dark. I didn't have much to go on with each vote because there didn't seem to be any concensus. The only thing that was positive was that Nameless was a wolf and was talking in circles which made you all work with him. Like a good politician his posts didn't go anywhere but said enough for you to trust him. Very well played.

I can't really explain my reasoning for not trusting the masons. One was already dead and since they could only PM each other and strategize it made just as much sense that they were wolves posing as masons than the actual masons. And if someone else would have clamed to be a mason to out them as wolves then hanging one of the two remaining still would have happened. I just didn't believe it.

As far as my game goes I can only say this, it will only get better. However I don't believe that because a post has an overwhelming amount of substance to it doesn't make it true or worthy of following. Sometimes the simplest answers are those that can be summed up in few words.

Looking forward to the next game.

[Bakhtosh]

You didn't quite have the rules memorized since in order for NoxiousDog to have been eaten at night, he could NOT have been a wolf (wolves can't eat another wolf). So after the 2 living masons came out and pegged ND as the 3rd, he was either the sorcerer or a mason.

So ND could not be a wolf. Only the sorc would lie. If R&U were wolves, they'd have had no way of knowing that ND was the sorc and would lie for them since he died without ever getting to speak. Therefore, ND HAD to be the 3rd mason, confirming the story of the other two.

[ezmate]

One admission I have to make: I never really believed LordMortis was the sorceror, right up until the point when we won the game. I thought he was an innocent playing at being the sorceror. I was terrified that he'd let all three of the others commit to a vote before revealing the truth, thus identifying all of them at once. Very glad I was wrong on that count.

It's funny, even though I knew that LM was the sorcerer*, I still had that same fear. I guess deep down, I was only 90% sure that he was the sorcerer. That's actually why I made a play to get him lynched. It was safe for the wolves and I figured it had a decent chance of getting votes from pr0ner, Bakhtosh, & Mark.

Interestingly enough, I even had a concern that this move might piss LM off ("you don't trust me?! Well, I'll just lynch Kraegor!") - I figured it was a small risk that still wouldn't lose the game for the wolves even if it happened. Imagine my surprise when LM basically threatened this exact thing if we didn't hurry up! In the end, I had to trust my gut & vote with LM.

*Once it became clear that LM was the sorcerer, I started telling everyone about it. Of course, I always threw in the idea that he could be a wolf, too. I figured his death would be good for the wolves (another villager dead) and if I was leading the mob, it couldn't hurt my credibility.

[Grundbegriff]

On the plus side, Soulbrother#1's decision to hide his status as Seer by roleplaying an impishly forward Wolf-candidate was quite effective. Nice work, Soulbro!

I suspect his announcement that he was the Seer caught a lot of people off guard (especially in view of zoltaire's gambit).

[Kraegor]

Interestingly enough, I even had a concern that this move might piss LM off ("you don't trust me?! Well, I'll just lynch Kraegor!") - I figured it was a small risk that still wouldn't lose the game for the wolves even if it happened. Imagine my surprise when LM basically threatened this exact thing if we didn't hurry up! In the end, I had to trust my gut & vote with LM.
.

Heh, I sent The Meal a PM wherein I told him LM had control of the game on that last turn. 3 wolves. 3 villagers. Lord Mortis.

Regardless, I figured I had covered myself by pointing out how LM killed all his previous masters. Not to forget 2 villagers voted to kill Crux w/o prompting from the wolves. "I" was actually a late voter to crux. Only needed a turn to recover if LM tried a double double cross. There was more than enough suspicion on LM for me to slip away.

[Kraegor]

It's funny, even though I knew that LM was the sorcerer*, I still had that same fear. I guess deep down, I was only 90% sure that he was the sorcerer. That's actually why I made a play to get him lynched. It was safe for the wolves and I figured it had a decent chance of getting votes from pr0ner, Bakhtosh, & Mark.

i may have the math wrong...but our doubt of LM is what dragged the game out, heh. We coulda engineered more deaths if we hadn't been tiptoeing thru the fuckin tulips with LM.

[LordMortis]

Interestingly enough, I even had a concern that this move might piss LM off ("you don't trust me?! Well, I'll just lynch Kraegor!") - I figured it was a small risk that still wouldn't lose the game for the wolves even if it happened. Imagine my surprise when LM basically threatened this exact thing if we didn't hurry up! In the end, I had to trust my gut & vote with LM.
.

Heh, I sent The Meal a PM wherein I told him LM had control of the game on that last turn. 3 wolves. 3 villagers. Lord Mortis.

Regardless, I figured I had covered myself by pointing out how LM killed all his previous masters. Not to forget 2 villagers voted to kill Crux w/o prompting from the wolves. "I" was actually a late voter to crux. Only needed a turn to recover if LM tried a double double cross. There was more than enough suspicion on LM for me to slip away.

I'd have never made good on my promise to lynch you. I was just having a bad day. I didn't even actually know you were a wolf.

I didn't figure I decided the game, per se, but I did figure my 1/7 the vote was almost as good as 1/3 of the decision which was exactly why I had no business being alive.

How funny would it have been if I were an innocent villager.

[Mr Bubbles]

Interestingly enough, I even had a concern that this move might piss LM off ("you don't trust me?! Well, I'll just lynch Kraegor!") - I figured it was a small risk that still wouldn't lose the game for the wolves even if it happened. Imagine my surprise when LM basically threatened this exact thing if we didn't hurry up! In the end, I had to trust my gut & vote with LM.
.

Heh, I sent The Meal a PM wherein I told him LM had control of the game on that last turn. 3 wolves. 3 villagers. Lord Mortis.

Regardless, I figured I had covered myself by pointing out how LM killed all his previous masters. Not to forget 2 villagers voted to kill Crux w/o prompting from the wolves. "I" was actually a late voter to crux. Only needed a turn to recover if LM tried a double double cross. There was more than enough suspicion on LM for me to slip away.

I'd have never made good on my promise to lynch you. I was just having a bad day. I didn't even actually know you were a wolf.

I didn't figure I decided the game, per se, but I did figure my 1/7 the vote was almost as good as 1/3 of the decision which was exactly why I had no business being alive.

How funny would it have been if I were an innocent villager.

Ha... even thought everyone else commited I was the same way.. I was well I would be picked off eventually so I better vote with everyone and even though I was almost sure.. I couldn't help but think.. why didn't the village lynch you earlier.

I certainly was hoping you were the sorcerer. I voted against you earlier knowing that you wouldn't be lynched at that point in the hopes that I would appear more innocent. But don't ask if I could explain each day why you were still alive.

[ezmate]

How funny would it have been if I were an innocent villager.

You know, if an innocent villager had balls of steel and an ego to match, he could single-handedly win the game...if he played just like Lord Mortis did & then screwed the wolves right at the end. He could honestly say he was the puppet master.

The thought, "Would LM do this?" crossed my mind, but I figured it would take a very insane person to try it.

[Kraegor]

How funny would it have been if I were an innocent villager.

You know, if an innocent villager had balls of steel and an ego to match, he could single-handedly win the game...if he played just like Lord Mortis did & then screwed the wolves right at the end. He could honestly say he was the puppet master.

The thought, "Would LM do this?" crossed my mind, but I figured it would take a very insane person to try it.

I would not say "insane". perhaps Someone who is gonna get a hurt real bad...

[Bakhtosh]

For the record, I said we should kill LM shortly after he forced the medium to go public.

[Remus West]

The reason I never went for the idea of lynching LordMortis is that he was so clearly on the side of the wolves. With Soulbrother#1's announcement and nameless there, LM had to be the sorcerer. Killing him early would not have told us anything as he was a warm body count. Yes, it sounds attractive to kill the sorcerer but it doesn't really bring the village that much closer to winning all it really does is allow the wolves a day in which you didn't try to kill one of them. Once I was sure of his role killing him essentially would have given the wolves a free day.

[ezmate]

The reason I never went for the idea of lynching LordMortis is that he was so clearly on the side of the wolves. With Soulbrother#1's announcement and nameless there, LM had to be the sorcerer. Killing him early would not have told us anything as he was a warm body count. Yes, it sounds attractive to kill the sorcerer but it doesn't really bring the village that much closer to winning all it really does is allow the wolves a day in which you didn't try to kill one of them. Once I was sure of his role killing him essentially would have given the wolves a free day.

You're 100% correct...I wished you guys would have killed him, though. Of course, the thread wouldn't have been nearly as entertaining.

[Remus West]

The reason I never went for the idea of lynching LordMortis is that he was so clearly on the side of the wolves. With Soulbrother#1's announcement and nameless there, LM had to be the sorcerer. Killing him early would not have told us anything as he was a warm body count. Yes, it sounds attractive to kill the sorcerer but it doesn't really bring the village that much closer to winning all it really does is allow the wolves a day in which you didn't try to kill one of them. Once I was sure of his role killing him essentially would have given the wolves a free day.

You're 100% correct...I wished you guys would have killed him, though. Of course, the thread wouldn't have been nearly as entertaining.

I don't know that I agree with that, I'm sure there would have been many more jokes about my selections had he not been busy irritateing everybody.

[LordMortis]

Fuck ally'all. I had a good time and that is all that matters.

[Chaosraven]

Yes, LM, you won again. We all got it.

Let the thread down slowly... you have work to do.

[Remus West]

I don't know why you are mad, I believe ezmate said your antics were entertaining. I said you were annoying. Whats new about that?