Lars Werewolf game 2 [Game is ended]

[Spiff]

I think Mr. Grenard has an enemy or two.

Wouldn't suprise me, what with all the pictures of you popping out of ceilings and such.

[Remus West]

lynch Harkonis

[Leigh]

I tried to reach out to you, Harkonis! Where's my credit?
lynch:Harkonis!


edit:I can't bold.

[Gryndyl]

Harkonis

[ChrisGrenard]

Ralph Wiggum was, as suspected, a wolf! We now have to find but one, and our list of people to lynch is at four.

For today, lynch Harkonis

And, since it is highly likely I will be killed tonight, I want everybody to know that after today you will be lead by Remus West and Sparhawk. They are the two other masons, and are guaranteed to be trustworthy. They will inform you of whether or not the previous night's pick was a wolf or not, and they shall give the lynching orders.

I wish I could be there on that day with you, but it looks as though it shall not happen. My one regret is that I have but one life to give for my completely infested village!

[Mr Bubbles]

Harkonis for the neck tie!

[Remus West]

Hopefully we get lucky today and do not have to lose you Brother Chris. It has been good working with you should the worst happen.

[pr0ner]

Lynch: Harkonis

[Lars]

Lynching votes
Remus West - Harkonis
Gryndyl - Harkonis
Sparhawk
Leigh - Harkonis
Harkonis - Mr Bubbles
Silky
pr0ner - Harkonis
tru1cy - Harkonis
Spiff
storz
Mr Bubbles - Harkonis
ChrisGrenard - Harkonis

Vote tally
Harkonis - 7
Mr Bubbles - 1

Majority needed for lynching: 7

[Lars]

Day

The angry mob marches Harkonis up to the gallows. His protests fall on the uncaring ears of the villagers. The many deaths of their fellow citizens has driven many villagers past the point of caring, and all they wish for is death.

Harkonis is hanged until dead.

A week later, with no other werewolf related deaths having occurred, the village knows they can finally live in peace, as they have successfully rooted out the afflicted beasts from their lives.

Congrats to the villagers, as they have won the game. All werewolves have been eliminated


Now, to pull back the curtain, and reveal all the roles in this game:

Werewolves
msteelers
Ralph-Wiggum
Harkonis
triggercut

Sorcerer
Chaosraven

Seer
Spiff

Werewolf Hunter
tru1cy

Masons
Remus West
Sparhawk
ChrisGrenard

Priest
yossar

Medium
Leigh

Wolfsbane
Gryndyl



Now, for the postgame talk. What did everyone think about how well these rules played out? I have some thoughts about them myself, but I'm interested to see what you, the players, think about them.

[Rowdy]

While it seems Chris Grenards group is going to win... not much of a fun game for the past 4 pages or so. Chris announces the way it's going to go down so fast that there's no point in anyone else even pretending to be playing anymore.

Running through the motions does not make for an enjoyable game. Next time, even if you have the numbers and whatnot figured out, try to play it a little closer to your vest so that everyone else in the game feels like they're still playing.

Like Silky said, doesn't seem like a very fun village to be part of. Kinda glad I got eaten earlier.

[Rowdy]

Day

The angry mob marches Harkonis up to the gallows. His protests fall on the uncaring ears of the villagers. The many deaths of their fellow citizens has driven many villagers past the point of caring, and all they wish for is death.

Harkonis is hanged until dead.

A week later, with no other werewolf related deaths having occurred, the village knows they can finally live in peace, as they have successfully rooted out the afflicted beasts from their lives.

Congrats to the villagers, as they have won the game. All werewolves have been eliminated


Now, to pull back the curtain, and reveal all the roles in this game:

Werewolves
msteelers
Ralph-Wiggum
Harkonis
triggercut

Sorcerer
Chaosraven

Seer
Spiff

Werewolf Hunter
tru1cy

Masons
Remus West
Sparhawk
ChrisGrenard

Priest
yossar

Medium
Leigh

Wolfsbane
Gryndyl



Now, for the postgame talk. What did everyone think about how well these rules played out? I have some thoughts about them myself, but I'm interested to see what you, the players, think about them.

Too many roles, and the lack of feedback after a hanging means that everyone is working on pure guess work. The game rules also encouraged private talk vs. public talk, which makes for a longer game as people talk behind the scenes, and a boring game for those who aren't included. I suspect many people in this game, if they weren't part of the mason block, never heard from anyone else and simply waited to be told who to vote for. Not that fun.

Simpler rules, with more feedback, promotes strategy.

[LordMortis]

While it seems Chris Grenards group is going to win... not much of a fun game for the past 4 pages or so. Chris announces the way it's going to go down so fast that there's no point in anyone else even pretending to be playing anymore.

Running through the motions does not make for an enjoyable game. Next time, even if you have the numbers and whatnot figured out, try to play it a little closer to your vest so that everyone else in the game feels like they're still playing.

Like Silky said, doesn't seem like a very fun village to be part of. Kinda glad I got eaten earlier.

While not probable, Chris still had the potential to have been wrong quite a ways through his spiel.

[tru1cy]

While it seems Chris Grenards group is going to win... not much of a fun game for the past 4 pages or so. Chris announces the way it's going to go down so fast that there's no point in anyone else even pretending to be playing anymore.

Running through the motions does not make for an enjoyable game. Next time, even if you have the numbers and whatnot figured out, try to play it a little closer to your vest so that everyone else in the game feels like they're still playing.

Like Silky said, doesn't seem like a very fun village to be part of. Kinda glad I got eaten earlier.

While not probable, Chris still had the potential to have been wrong quite a ways through his spiel.

I actually had my doubts about Chris Grenard at first and I wasn't convinced for a bit. he played it smart and the game was decided when he had such a major voting block

[LordMortis]

I actually had my doubts about Chris Grenard at first and I wasn't convinced for a bit. he played it smart and the game was decided when he had such a major voting block

Picture if Spiff were actually a wolf. Picture him having turned in Trig and Trig having gone dramatic to prove that Spiff were a wolf. Picture Leigh being a wolf brought into the fold by Spiff. Picture Gryndyl being the fourth wolf.

I'm glad we won but I would have fallen out of my chair laughing if this was a damned fine ruse actually pulled off by the wolves with Spiff being a master and lucky conductor of the orchestra.

[msteelers]

I don't know. I'm interested to see how things went down with Chris and his group. Maybe it was a series of improbable events, but it seemed like they had the game all but wrapped up very early on.

As the wolves we were just starting to peace together information when they got triggercut, and then quickly moved on to myself, ralph, and then harkonis.

Some suggestions:

lower the number of wolves. It was hard to communicate with all of us. At least I found it hard anyway and it slowed the process of the game.

Lower the number of Masons. I like the idea of villagers knowing each others identity, but three is a powerful voting block. And if they meet up with a seer or vampire hunter the game is stacked in their favor.

I like the vampire hunter role. A couple of my votes on who to eat was influenced by the fear of going after someone who was "protected." That was why I never really wanted to go after Chris. I had a feeling he wasn't the seer, and unless the vampire hunter had something else going on behind the scenes, was most likely going to protect Chris since he was the vocal one.

The sorcerer role was ok. I think it can work out well in other games, but this one the villagers formed up so quickly that it wouldn't matter.

I don't know if this is a rule already or not, but I was thinking that if a vampire hunter protects a wolf, he should be killed, and then the wolves still get to kill another villager that night. It adds risk to that role, because right now the vampire hunter is very strong. He can stop a villager from being killed, and he kills a wolf if he is attacked at night.

[msteelers]

We were also very bad with our decisions on who to eat at night. We didn't get anyone important.

[Ralph-Wiggum]

Wow, we wolves sucked it up. We didn't manage to kill anyone with an important role.

[Ralph-Wiggum]

Possible suggestions:

Get rid of the Wolfsbane and Priest roles. Instead, have two seers who have the option of "dreaming" about a dead player. Maybe the seers can even know each other right off the bat.

I also agree with msteelers that the masons are a bit too powerful.

[LordMortis]

Possible suggestions:

Get rid of the Wolfsbane and Priest roles. Instead, have two seers who have the option of "dreaming" about a dead player. Maybe the seers can even know each other right off the bat.

I also agree with msteelers that the masons are a bit too powerful.

Not at all. There was luck and not looking going on. 3 Masons that act in concert can die easily enough. Three masons that don't act in concert accomplish nothing but not hanging each other.

What they do get is hooked up if the seer finds them, which in the game was better than a one in six and getting better every turn.

As wolves you wanted to find a way to sew distrust while acting like regular villagers. That is why Trig's move would have been so cool if Spiff were a wolf.

This is also why it would have prudent force Leigh to do a seance. It would have made Spiff much more probably the seer and given way more credence (but still not 100% deductive) to Chris' claims.

[ChrisGrenard]

Ok, here's the story of what happened behind the scenes.

Short version: Remus got checked by the seer on day 2. triggercut had been checked on day 1, and thus we, the masons, now had one werewolf name and a block of 4, one of which was the seer. About 200 pm's later, we had it figured out.

Long version:

As noted, Remus was contacted by a person claiming to be the seer on day 2 (spiff). We were cautious, and Remus did not inform him that we were the masons. I became the knows-all person. Remus would feed me information from our seer, while I could contact others and feel out the safe people. In this way, I came into contact with quite a few people.

Now, during this time, we know triggercut is a werewolf, so we use this information, not by declaring him a vampire, but by using it to test people. Leigh becomes a target of choice when she acts quite wavery. Thus, I begin forcing Leigh to target Triggercut by saying I have such-and-such information. Thus, information is effectively filtered from spiff, to remus, to me, to Leigh. Also during this time, Remus was talking with Triggercut, and the two were playing each other like fiddles. Thus, Remus was aligned with the Triggercut at this time, while I was aligned with Leigh.

Now, we did not trust Leigh at this point in time. Our major concern came when I fed her confidential information that I gave her to several people in case I tried to betray her. The interesting feed was her sending a PM to Remus. Remus had not had contact with her. Thus, we figured she had gotten Remus's name through Triggercut. After the night that we killed triggercut, the seer checked out Leigh, only to find we were wrong with this name. Thus a problem occurred.

Now, ironically up to this point, Sparhawk had not done a thing. It turns out he had forgotten he was part of this game, thus for most of the early game we were working with two masons. In all honesty, outside of the final block, Sparhawk didn't do much.

So, we had Leigh as an innocent, and we figured that even if she was the sorcerer, she only had contact with me, and thus was harmless in the role. Thus, she got into the trusted group. So, we began hunting for other werewolves.

During this time, I contact both Yossar and tru1cy on a whim (among other people, who did not keep up contact and thus were dropped). Tru1cy claimed he knew who the hunter was. Now, tru1cy is not a good liar, because I know that there is no way he could have come into contact with a hunter, but I say, "Yeah sure." and keep talking to him. We check him out the next night, and he's clean, and we both level with each other. Thus, we now have 6 people in our trusted group: The Seer, 3 masons, Leigh and tru1cy the hunter. Remus and I calculate that if we get one more person and none of us die the next day, we would have enough to beging lynching the untrusted people one by one until we win. A brutal tactic, to be sure, but an effective one.

Now, during this time I have talks with yossar, and yossar guesses the identity of Remus. This is quite effective and he earns some of my trust. Eventually he tells Remus of Grynadyl's identity. We have our seer check out Gryn on the same night yossar is killed. He is clean, and we now have our 7 people needed.

Also, during this time Pr0ner and Bubbles contact me promising they are not wolves. I tell them that I will put them at the bottom of the list and have our seer check them out before the end. At this point, we discuss based on thread posts who is likely to be what, and we develop a list of lynchings (along with order to lynch in) that I send to everybody in the trusted list. In this manner, even if I am killed, the game would have continued without me.

During this time, tru1cy is alternating protection between me and our seer.

In any case, it turns out our guesses for who was a wolf was correct, and it worked out.

The real lesson for how we won is getting the seer in contact with the masons so early on. This gave us the power to check on any who entered into our trusted group, and verify them.

Our one risk was if our seer had been a wolf. However, since no other seer ever came out, and the wolves attacked random people instead of killing me or Remus, we figured that the likelyhood of this was *exceptionally* low.

[tru1cy]

Btw, my very first protectee was Trig

Also just to add I think the WW Hunter role is a bit too strong. I could have came out and was guaranteed to be safe less the wolves attacked me and lose one of thier numbers. My death would have helped the villagers, imo.


I actually came out to Chris cause if I died I would have took a wolf with me. So my death would even early would have helped the village.

Anyway, I like the idea that if you protect a WW/Vampire the hunter dies without taking one with him. I would have been very hesistant coming out of defending just random people

[Remus West]

Were I one of the wolves and found the hunter early I would have gone after him. Sure you lose one of your own but you in turn are aure of your kills from then on. The only down side is the same with any kill you make, the dead players word becomes true. That is when they say "I am not a wolf and I know X is also not because blah blah." there is much more incentive to trust X. This whole game played out because Spiff found me early AND stayed in the shadows. Had we lost him before completeing our block we would have had power but no surety. We were certainly helped by the wolves missing the folks with roles but I don't think that mattered to much in the end unless Spiff was high on your list of folks to kill. Chris came out early to declare victory because we were overly proud of how quickly we had managed to put it together. The wolves needed to eat yossar right away as him declaring himself Priest and no one gainsaying it made him the perfect lodestone to get us hooked up with Gryndyl.

[yossar]

Now, during this time I have talks with yossar, and yossar guesses the identity of Remus. This is quite effective and he earns some of my trust.

After LordMortis told me Remus wasn't an innocent villager, it wasn't too hard to figure out.

[yossar]

I like the vampire hunter role. A couple of my votes on who to eat was influenced by the fear of going after someone who was "protected." That was why I never really wanted to go after Chris. I had a feeling he wasn't the seer, and unless the vampire hunter had something else going on behind the scenes, was most likely going to protect Chris since he was the vocal one.

Was that the reason you didn't try to eat me after I declared Priest or were you trying to sow doubt among the people?

[Ralph-Wiggum]

This whole game played out because Spiff found me early AND stayed in the shadows.

Until the end when we knew it was over, we tried to kill the quiet ones (think that it's likely one of them was the seer). We just picked the wrong ones.

[Ralph-Wiggum]

Was that the reason you didn't try to eat me after I declared Priest or were you trying to sow doubt among the people?

I think it had more to do with the fact that we didn't feel threatened by you. Frankly, the priest isn't all that powerful. We decided it would be better to go after other people in the hope of killing someone more important (i.e. the seer or the wolfsbane).

[Bakhtosh]

The hunter role has several options to weaken but not nerf the role:

Hunter acts like this game, but once he has prevented a wolf attack, he is wounded, out of weapons, etc and can no longer protect anyone (essentially, he becomes a regular villager). No deaths that night.

Hunter dies protecting his charge. 1 death.

Hunter gets to choose 1 night to stop the wolves, no matter their target. No deaths that night, and no other powers to the hunter.

I think in the above options, the hunter should still be able to take out a wolf if he is attacked...giving the wolves a bit of danger in making their choices.

2 seers that can ask one unlimited yes/no question about 1 person per night "is X a wolf?" "Was Y a wolf?" "Is Z a mason?"

[msteelers]

Btw, my very first protectee was Trig

Also just to add I think the WW Hunter role is a bit too strong. I could have came out and was guaranteed to be safe less the wolves attacked me and lose one of thier numbers. My death would have helped the villagers, imo.


I actually came out to Chris cause if I died I would have took a wolf with me. So my death would even early would have helped the village.

Anyway, I like the idea that if you protect a WW/Vampire the hunter dies without taking one with him. I would have been very hesistant coming out of defending just random people

That would have changed the game a little bit if right off the bat the vampire hunter gets killed. Although the seer and the masons hooked up so early the game was almost over right then. The only chance we had was to stumble upon the seer and masons and start killing them, although at that point we had no information.

I think the reason the hunter should die if he protects a wolf is because I would view it as a stab in the back.

[Remus West]

Maybe have the hunter die in place of the intended target if he protects a wolf. That way it still is only one kill and no one other than the wolves know who they intended to kill. I think it should be obvious the Hunter died in this way though.

[LordMortis]

I think it had more to do with the fact that we didn't feel threatened by you. Frankly, the priest isn't all that powerful. We decided it would be better to go after other people in the hope of killing someone more important (i.e. the seer or the wolfsbane).

That was exactly why I put my head on the chopping block at the beginning. Losing the Seer early in this game would have easily been game over. Losing the wolfsbane would have made it also more difficult. The odds of hanging a wolf on turn one are very very small, so why not ensure that get an innoncent villager rather than a probable villager?

[msteelers]

I like the vampire hunter role. A couple of my votes on who to eat was influenced by the fear of going after someone who was "protected." That was why I never really wanted to go after Chris. I had a feeling he wasn't the seer, and unless the vampire hunter had something else going on behind the scenes, was most likely going to protect Chris since he was the vocal one.

Was that the reason you didn't try to eat me after I declared Priest or were you trying to sow doubt among the people?

I was thinking one of two possible scenarios: you were either the real priest, or you were the sorcerer. The priest isn't that important of a job, and it was more important for us to try and get a seer. I doubt a seer would come out claiming he's the priest, as obviously it would make you a target.

Plus you were the only player that had said what his role was, and I thought it was a high possibility that the vampire hunter would protect you, just for lack of having anyone else to protect.

[Stitch]

Now, for the postgame talk. What did everyone think about how well these rules played out? I have some thoughts about them myself, but I'm interested to see what you, the players, think about them.

How about an opinion from the lurkers? While I recognize that there's no reason for you to cater to the spectators, this was by far the least interesting Mafia varient so far to watch. The large volume of participants made it move at a glacial pace initially, and then almost all action took place off screen via PMs due to the fact that there were so many important roles. Add to this that there's no official public word on whether or not a hanged man was a werewolf, and you have a game with virtually no public activity to follow. And then once Chris and co. got their shit together, everything became so public that all the mystery and fun was sucked out.

Well conceived and well played, but kind of dull to watch.

[Mr Bubbles]

Now, for the postgame talk. What did everyone think about how well these rules played out? I have some thoughts about them myself, but I'm interested to see what you, the players, think about them.

How about an opinion from the lurkers? While I recognize that there's no reason for you to cater to the spectators, this was by far the least interesting Mafia varient so far to watch. The large volume of participants made it move at a glacial pace initially, and then almost all action took place off screen via PMs due to the fact that there were so many important roles. Add to this that there's no official public word on whether or not a hanged man was a werewolf, and you have a game with virtually no public activity to follow. And then once Chris and co. got their shit together, everything became so public that all the mystery and fun was sucked out.

Well conceived and well played, but kind of dull to watch.

True I agree.. I felt I was just being strung along for the ride. I was never an insider to any info and just hoped the side I picked was right... Tweeking of rules can definitely help, but also I think who participates makes a big deal. So a bit of luck and a bit of tweeking and its all good. But I do agree that it was a very big group and not knowing when someone is killed made me feel like I was just stabbing at the dark.

[Ralph-Wiggum]

I agree. Knowing whether the recently lynched victim was a werewolf adds to the intrigue and second guessing. Of course, changing that rule makes the wolfsbane and priest role irrelevant.

[Rowdy]

Now, for the postgame talk. What did everyone think about how well these rules played out? I have some thoughts about them myself, but I'm interested to see what you, the players, think about them.

How about an opinion from the lurkers? While I recognize that there's no reason for you to cater to the spectators, this was by far the least interesting Mafia varient so far to watch. The large volume of participants made it move at a glacial pace initially, and then almost all action took place off screen via PMs due to the fact that there were so many important roles. Add to this that there's no official public word on whether or not a hanged man was a werewolf, and you have a game with virtually no public activity to follow. And then once Chris and co. got their shit together, everything became so public that all the mystery and fun was sucked out.

Well conceived and well played, but kind of dull to watch.

Exactly. Dull to play too, if you weren't in one of the power blocks.

[Chaosraven]

Let me just state that the sorceror role sucks.

You have the same intention: find the bad guys.

But how in the hell do you do that without letting the rest of the normal world know you want to be a pepper too???

The worst moment for me was when trig was fingered and spewed... I immediately tried to get connected.

I sent 2 PMs to the pair of 3somes I figured were the wolves but you can't just claim "I wanna play with the big boys" at random.

Hell, as it turned out I would have gotten lynched anyway.

[Remus West]

Let me just state that the sorceror role sucks.

You're just bitter because we pwned you.

I think it would be fun to try the sorcerer role, but maybe you should be a combo seer/sorc. You get one question a night, is so and so a wolf or is so and so a seer. Ask the wrong question about the right player and you get nowhere, but ask the right one about the right player and you get in and give the wolves a huge weapon. That way you have a chance to get to the wolves. Of course they have to worry about some fraud pretending to be the sorc but thats the same spot the villagers are in.

[Chaosraven]

Let me just state that the sorceror role sucks.

You're just bitter because we pwned you.

I think it would be fun to try the sorcerer role, but maybe you should be a combo seer/sorc. You get one question a night, is so and so a wolf or is so and so a seer. Ask the wrong question about the right player and you get nowhere, but ask the right one about the right player and you get in and give the wolves a huge weapon. That way you have a chance to get to the wolves. Of course they have to worry about some fraud pretending to be the sorc but thats the same spot the villagers are in.

Yeah, cuz outing the seer if I found them was not gonna paint a big ol target on my head, was it?

[Remus West]

Thats why I said to give the sorc the option of looking for the wolves first.