tesla motors

[Freyland]

Looking forward to the 48V / 800V / steer-by-wire stuff trickling down to the 3.

100% steer by wire makes me uneasy.

In the old days, we called those "reins".

[The Meal]

I was unfamiliar with that auto reviewer (Jason Cammisa), but both of those videos were most excellent. The first for its entertainment while being informative and the second because it spoke so purely to the engineer in me. I didn't go into automotive engineering, but 80% of my collegiate classmates (Michigan Tech) did, and much of our education was pushed in that direction (my master's program basically groomed me to go into NVH, though I took that into distinctly different industries). Thank you for sharing.

None of the CT-related videos we've seen posted here could be classified as reviews, IMO. We've seen some entertainment pieces, some first impressions, and a travel vlog. This is probably as good as it gets for a while (and watching a review of the Beast Mode version of this truck is purely for entertainment on my side, this really isn't a vehicle that I see being a good fit for my needs especially at its price point), but I am also interested in seeing how technologies trickle down into my market segment.

I was concerned when my '07 MINI Cooper was announced as throttle-by-wire. I can't say that I was ever made aware of a failure in that system. And as a few of the videos posted have pointed out, steer-by-wire has been used in aeronautics for the last 25+ years (again, without any publicized failures, as far as I know). I'm sure the FUD-Tesla segment (Exodor, etc.) will drive this as a wedge, but my antennae aren't exactly tickled here (unless/until we see otherwise).

Thanks to everyone who've used this thread to keep me in the CT loop.

[LordMortis]

my master's program basically groomed me to go into NVH

One of the specialties of my old employer was NVH. The not quite quiet room they built was disturbing. My "office" was next to it, so they took my HVAC was attached to theirs and and they often kept it from turning on so as not to disturb that room. To keep it topical, they did some development for parts for TESLA in there.

[Zaxxon]

I don’t think we’re going to see any true reviews for awhile yet. In true Tesla fashion, they delivered 1-2 dozen Cybertrucks and I’m sure all were to folks close to the company in some way.

[Zaxxon]

Solid truck-things thoughts…

[Holman]

I keep seeing that the crash test results are horrifying: the lack of crumple zones means that all of the force of impact is transferred through the cabin (and through the vulnerable meatsacks inside).

One damning detail was that a 35mph collision with a wall actually broke the rear axle. That indicates a huge amount of impact traveling through the whole vehicle rather than being taken by the frame.

Is this for real?

[Zaxxon]

I’ve seen that commentary, mostly from folks/sites that are up Exodor’s alley, but I’ll eat my hat if the truck doesn’t do well in official crash test ratings. It’d be a first for Tesla not to ace that area.

Lots of things to rag on Tesla for, but crash safety has never been among them.

[Exodor]

I'm sure the FUD-Tesla segment (Exodor, etc.)

It's FUD to point out that Tesla FSD has caused multiple accidents that resulted in injuries and deaths?

I know I posted links to out-there sources like Reuters and my local news instead of some rando Tesla fanboy on YouTube but I don't think it's fair to call it FUD.

[Zaxxon]

It’s FUD to frame it breathlessly as is often the case. If your source isn’t also including data on how many accidents are averted by the tech, and when the pieces are posted with a lack of first-hand experience with the product and an almost gleeful (your word was entertainment) stance, it’s hard to take seriously.

[Jaymann]

FUD? Effed Up Dissidents?

[LordMortis]

Feet Up Display

[Zaxxon]

Frequently Unserious Discourse

[LawBeefaroni]

FUD? Effed Up Dissidents?

Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt.

[LordMortis]

FUD? Effed Up Dissidents?

Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt.

Yay Google. It is like my mom. Only my mom always just said "look it up" So Google is like what my mom would point to if we had an Internet at my house when I was 7, rather than an encyclopedia set from the 60s.

[Zaxxon]

I keep seeing that the crash test results are horrifying: the lack of crumple zones means that all of the force of impact is transferred through the cabin (and through the vulnerable meatsacks inside).

As expected, the idea that there's a lack of crumple zones is bunk. Discussed around halfway thru this video:

[LawBeefaroni]

Detroit — Tesla is recalling more than 2 million vehicles across its model lineup to fix a defective system that's supposed to ensure drivers are paying attention when they use Autopilot.

Documents posted Wednesday by U.S. safety regulators say the company will send out a software update to fix the problem.

The recall comes after a two-year investigation by the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration into a series of crashes that happened while the Autopilot partially automated driving system was in use. Some were deadly.

An agency spokesperson said in a statement to CBS News that its investigation found Autopilot's method of ensuring that drivers are paying attention can be inadequate and "can lead to foreseeable misuse of the system."

[LordMortis]

Why is this Detroit? NHTSA is DC and TESLA is CA and TX. I was trying to find the local connection and I see nothing. What am I glazing over on?

Edit "contributing" source for CBS

https://apnews.com/article/tesla-autopi ... ca46eb3002

Still don't see the connection.

[Zaxxon]

Why is this Detroit? NHTSA is DC and TESLA is CA and TX. I was trying to find the local connection and I see nothing. What am I glazing over on?

I had the same thought.

Will be interesting to see the form these additional checks/nags take in the upcoming software update. I guess this is likely why the holiday update took a pause for a week.

[The Meal]

Location of the AP chief automotive writer?

The "recall" term always cracks me up. Media needs a better term for over-the-air-update requirements.

[Zaxxon]

Location of the AP chief automotive writer?

The "recall" term always cracks me up. Media needs a better term for over-the-air-update requirements.

Microsoft recalls billions of devices each month. Apple billions more.

[stessier]

There are deaths associated with unpatched Microsoft and Apple products?

[LordMortis]

There are deaths associated with unpatched Microsoft and Apple products?

I don't like the wording either, but I was thinking about safety mandated patches with regard to manufacturer liability for safety, even before Apple and MS were mentioned here. Words are interesting. They've been hemming and hawing around the terminology all morning on CNBC, using recall with a level of conceptual concern all morning. Recall seems to imply the need to take something back to the maker/distributor to mitigate against a safety nightmare. Dismissing it as a software update doesn't seem to fit at the same time, either.

[Zaxxon]

There are deaths associated with unpatched Microsoft and Apple products?

I don't like the wording either, but I was thinking about safety mandated patches with regard to manufacturer liability for safety, even before Apple and MS were mentioned here. Words are interesting. They've been hemming and hawing around the terminology all morning on CNBC, using recall with a level of conceptual concern all morning. Recall seems to imply the need to take something back to the maker/distributor to mitigate against a safety nightmare. Dismissing it as a software update doesn't seem to fit at the same time, either.

Yeah, definitely updated terminology somewhere in-between would make sense.

I know (I hope/think) stessier was just being pithy, but yes there are real-world implications including to folks' health with MS/Apple software issues, as well. Not in the 'misuse ends in you crashing into a pole' vein, but in the 'attackers have destroyed your business and/or life, figuratively or literally' standpoint. Exceedingly rare, but the much larger scale means it's absolutely happening.

[stessier]

There are deaths associated with unpatched Microsoft and Apple products?

I don't like the wording either, but I was thinking about safety mandated patches with regard to manufacturer liability for safety, even before Apple and MS were mentioned here. Words are interesting. They've been hemming and hawing around the terminology all morning on CNBC, using recall with a level of conceptual concern all morning. Recall seems to imply the need to take something back to the maker/distributor to mitigate against a safety nightmare. Dismissing it as a software update doesn't seem to fit at the same time, either.

Yeah, definitely updated terminology somewhere in-between would make sense.

I know (I hope/think) stessier was just being pithy, but yes there are real-world implications including to folks' health with MS/Apple software issues, as well. Not in the 'misuse ends in you crashing into a pole' vein, but in the 'attackers have destroyed your business and/or life, figuratively or literally' standpoint. Exceedingly rare, but the much larger scale means it's absolutely happening.

I was being a bit pithy (it's my default state), but a recall carries with it real requirements (assuming this is a NHTSA recall). They have to notify everyone effected - not just by email, but with official notices. They have to provide options for those who can do OTA. They have to keep track of what was updated and what wasn't and make many efforts to get every effected car done. MS and Apple - not so much.

[Zaxxon]

Yep, which is part of the problem--not so much that vehicle OEMs have to do these things, but that others don't. To be clear, I'm in the camp that it's a good thing these changes are happening (pending my ability to see them firsthand, at which point I may bitch about the specific implementation).

[Exodor]

Yep, which is part of the problem--not so much that vehicle OEMs have to do these things, but that others don't.

Could that be because other car companies don't advertise their driving assist features as full self driving?

I mean, this is how they market FSD

Your vehicle will be able to drive itself almost anywhere with minimal driver intervention

Full Self-Driving Capability also includes:
Autosteer on City Streets
Traffic and Stop Sign Control: Identifies stop signs and traffic lights and automatically slows your car to a stop on approach, with your active supervision

Seems to contradict the idea that FSD is for use on open highways only.


Interesting this recall comes two days after a pretty scathing Washington Post story

Dash-cam footage captured by the Tesla and obtained exclusively by The Post shows the car blowing through a stop sign, a blinking light and five yellow signs warning that the road ends and drivers must turn left or right.

The crash is one of at least eight fatal or serious wrecks involving Tesla Autopilot on roads where the driver assistance software could not reliably operate, according to a Post analysis of two federal databases, legal records and other public documents. The first crash occurred in 2016, when a Tesla plowed under a semi-truck on a U.S. route in Florida. The most recent was in March when a Tesla in Autopilot failed to slow down, police said, and hit a teenager stepping off a North Carolina school bus at 45 mph

Nor have federal regulators taken action. After the 2016 crash, which killed Tesla driver Joshua Brown, the National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) called for limits on where driver-assistance technology could be activated. But as a purely investigative agency, NTSB has no regulatory power over Tesla. Its peer agency, the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA), which is part of the Department of Transportation, has the authority to establish enforceable auto safety standards — but its failure to act has given rise to an unusual and increasingly tense rift between the two agencies.

In an October interview, NTSB chair Jennifer Homendy said the 2016 crash should have spurred NHTSA to create enforceable rules around where Tesla’s technology could be activated. The inaction, she said, reflects “a real failure of the system.”

“If the manufacturer isn’t going to take safety seriously, it is up to the federal government to make sure that they are standing up for others to ensure safety,” Homendy said. But “safety does not seem to be the priority when it comes to Tesla.”
Of NHTSA, Homendy added, “How many more people have to die before you take action as an agency?”

Doesn't seem like this fix is going to address the underlying problems:

NHTSA said it would be too complex and resource-intensive to verify that systems such as Tesla Autopilot are used within the conditions for which they are designed, and it potentially would not fix the problem.

The string of Autopilot crashes reveals the consequences of allowing a rapidly evolving technology to operate on the nation’s roadways without significant government oversight, experts say. While NHTSA has several ongoing investigations into the company and specific crashes, critics argue the agency’s approach is too reactive and has allowed a flawed technology to put Tesla drivers — and those around them — at risk.

I'm sue this is just more FUD, though.

[LordMortis]

Yep, which is part of the problem--not so much that vehicle OEMs have to do these things, but that others don't.

Could that be because other car companies don't advertise their driving assist features as full self driving?

It think he means all automotive OEMs have a huge process surrounding recalls, as they should, but a recall on your toaster oven or Gerber Baby Food? A notice and forced refunds or fix of some sort if it's returned. I think he supports draconian safety requirements with vehicles as an example other recalls should aspire to, if by legal enforcement.

[Zaxxon]

Yep, which is part of the problem--not so much that vehicle OEMs have to do these things, but that others don't.

Could that be because other car companies don't advertise their driving assist features as full self driving?

It think he means all automotive OEMs have a huge process surrounding recalls, as they should, but a recall on your toaster oven or Gerber Baby Food? A notice and forced refunds or fix of some sort if it's returned. I think he supports draconian safety requirements with vehicles as an example other recalls should aspire to, if by legal enforcement.

Or if not draconian, at least better than 'well, we released an update and announced it in a knowledge base article somewhere; we're good.'

[Zaxxon]

Some at Tesla apparently agree that the term and process are a little outdated.

[LordMortis]

Not so sure about the process but then I am not versed in the whole of the process. I'll reserve judgement.

[Exodor]

Interesting Rolling Stone opinion piece about the lie of FSD including some interesting statistics:

When road safety researcher Noah Goodall adjusted the best publicly available data for factors like road type and driver age in a peer-reviewed paper, Tesla’s claim of a 43% reduction in crashes turned into an 11% increase in crashes.

[Zaxxon]

Leno discussion/ride-along with Franz von Holzhausen & Lars Moravy... Lots of interesting (to me, at least) little tidbits not involving the Cybertruck:

-Tesla is using ~100 Semis internally on their Nevada/CA route in prep for volume production next year.
-Tesla is working on an inductive charging pad (this was 'wink wink' known, but I don't think I'd heard it from the horse's mouth). Will be interesting to see the eventual cost, speed, and charging efficiency on this thing.
-V4 Superchargers will hit 350 kW, as rumored.



Munro Cybertruck line tour, also with Moravy:

[Zaxxon]

Why is this Detroit? NHTSA is DC and TESLA is CA and TX. I was trying to find the local connection and I see nothing. What am I glazing over on?

I had the same thought.

Will be interesting to see the form these additional checks/nags take in the upcoming software update. I guess this is likely why the holiday update took a pause for a week.

From the horse’s mouth:

[Exodor]

California DMV pressing the obvious case that Tesla is misrepresenting the capabilities of FSD

Seven years after Tesla released the automated driving feature it calls Full Self-Driving, the California Department of Motor Vehicles is pressing accusations of false advertising

In a motion filed Nov. 20, the DMV accused Tesla of misleading automotive customers with claims about Autopilot and Full Self-Driving with numerous false statements. One example: “The system is designed to be able to conduct short and long distance trips with no action required by the person in the driver’s seat.” Whatever the design intent, neither Autopilot nor Full Self-Driving is yet able to do a full trip with no driver interaction.

Should the DMV win its case, its legal motion says, Tesla’s California manufacturer’s license could be revoked, and the company could be required to pay restitution to “persons or institutions who have suffered financial loss or damage.”

Meanwhile, several years-long investigations by the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration on Autopilot and Full Self-Driving safety concerns continue to drag on, including inquiries into vehicular deaths and crashes into police cars and ambulances. Thus far, NHTSA acting administrator Ann Carlson and her boss, Department of Transportation Secretary Pete Buttigieg, have declined to talk about the investigations and the amount of time they’re taking to complete.

[Exodor]

The wheels are coming off - literally

In April 2021, the owner of a 2020 Model 3 with less than 15,000 miles on the odometer, went to a Tesla repair center in Brooklyn, New York, after an accident. The technician’s summary: “Front wheel fell off while driving on Autopilot at 60 mph,” referring to Tesla’s automated driving system. The wrecked car was sold, without the front wheel, in November 2021, auction records show.

The following month, another owner of a 2020 Model X in Madrid reported a wheel falling off while driving, the records show

The vehicle’s front-right suspension had collapsed, and parts of the car loudly scraped the road as it came to a stop.

The complex repair required nearly 40 hours of labor to rebuild the suspension and replace the steering column, among other fixes, according to a detailed repair estimate. The cost: more than $14,000. Tesla refused to cover the repairs, blaming the accident on “prior” suspension damage.

Jain is one of tens of thousands of Tesla owners who have experienced premature failures of suspension or steering parts, according to a Reuters review of thousands of Tesla documents. The chronic failures, many in relatively new vehicles, date back at least seven years and stretch across Tesla’s model lineup and across the globe, from China to the United States to Europe, according to the records and interviews with more than 20 customers and nine former Tesla managers or service technicians.

the company has denied some of the suspension and steering problems in statements to U.S. regulators and the public– and, according to Tesla records, sought to shift some of the resulting repair costs to customers.

Tesla has blamed frequent failures of several parts on Tesla owners, alleging they abused the cars, according to interviews with former service managers, company records and a 2020 Tesla letter to the U.S. National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA). In other cases, the automaker charged customers with out-of-warranty cars to replace parts that Tesla engineers internally called flawed or that they knew had high failure rates. Engineers ordered repeated redesigns for several parts and discussed seeking money back from suppliers because of the defects

[LordMortis]

CNBC was reporting this morning that TESLAs are involved in more accidents than any other vehicle on a make to accident ratio.

Haven't read the article but I assume it's similar to what they've talking heading.

https://www.cnbc.com/2023/12/19/tesla-d ... study.html

Tesla drivers in the U.S. were involved in accidents at a higher rate than drivers of any other brand of vehicle over the past year, according to a new study of 30 automotive brands by LendingTree.

With 24 accidents per 1,000 drivers during the period from mid-November 2022 to mid-November 2023, Tesla drivers clocked in with the worst accident rate in the U.S., followed by Ram drivers who were involved in about 23 accidents, and Subaru drivers who were involved in about 21 accidents per 1,000 drivers during the year.

I can speculate why Dodge owners get in accidents. (have I mentioned how I notice how much RAM and Charger owners seem to be assholes around me when I'm oot and aboot)

[Zaxxon]

In not-surprising news, the data did not actually show that.

[Isgrimnur]

Tesla stock falls 12% as EV maker warns production growth will be 'notably lower' than 2023

For the fourth quarter, Tesla reported top-line revenue of $25.17 billion against $25.87 billion expected; revenue rose approximately 3% from a year ago. Tesla reported adjusted EPS of $0.71 against $0.73 expected. Adjusted net income totaled $2.48 billion against the $2.61 billion expected by the Street.

[LordMortis]

Put in the strange situation of agreeing with Musk that he is entitled to a the $55 billion package. It was what was promised and it was promised based on the idea the investors would never pop the valuation like they did nor the numbers they agreed to were realistic. He delivered and the shareholders should pay. This is separate from the ridiculousness that he should be able to sell billions in shares and then complain that he doesn't own enough of the company.

https://apnews.com/article/elon-musk-te ... 5bd9c4c805

[raydude]

Put in the strange situation of agreeing with Musk that he is entitled to a the $55 billion package. It was what was promised and it was promised based on the idea the investors would never pop the valuation like they did nor the numbers they agreed to were realistic. He delivered and the shareholders should pay. This is separate from the ridiculousness that he should be able to sell billions in shares and then complain that he doesn't own enough of the company.

https://apnews.com/article/elon-musk-te ... 5bd9c4c805

After reading the article I feel like you can't separate the two issues cleanly. In fact, I believe he's trying to coerce the company into giving him 25% control because he had some level of control over getting the $55 billion package. From the article:

McCormick specifically cited Musk’s long business and personal relationships with compensation committee chairman Ira Ehrenpreis and fellow committee member Antonio Gracias. She also noted that the working group working on the pay package included general counsel Todd Maron who was Musk’s former divorce attorney.

“In fact, Maron was a primary go-between Musk and the committee, and it is unclear on whose side Maron viewed himself,” the judge wrote. “Yet many of the documents cited by the defendants as proof of a fair process were drafted by Maron.”