Apple Vision

[stessier]

I didn't see that this had a thread here (might be being discussed in the Games VR thread, but this isn't really for games).

I like Casey's review because it is just kind of living with it. MKBHD is good in a different way - specs and so forth.

[Daehawk]

Whats MKBHD? And you double posted the same video.

Thats pretty wild. Id wear it. Too bad its an Apple product. Thats a no go for me. Ever.

[stessier]

Sorry -fixed!

[gbasden]

Whats MKBHD? And you double posted the same video.

Thats pretty wild. Id wear it. Too bad its an Apple product. Thats a no go for me. Ever.

MKBHD is the tag for Marques Brownlee's tech channel.

[Daehawk]

Whats MKBHD? And you double posted the same video.

Thats pretty wild. Id wear it. Too bad its an Apple product. Thats a no go for me. Ever.

MKBHD is the tag for Marques Brownlee's tech channel.

Oh. Dont know him. Im old now it seems.

Also being totally buzzed would make this even better. The future is here! If you're rich.

[Kurth]

Whats MKBHD? And you double posted the same video.

Thats pretty wild. Id wear it. Too bad its an Apple product. Thats a no go for me. Ever.

MKBHD is the tag for Marques Brownlee's tech channel.

I just discovered him recently. He’s great!

[YellowKing]

I don't have anything against Apple. People complain about their pricing, etc. but at the end of the day they have a knack for turning cutting edge products into refined forms that we use every day.

Is the Vision way too pricy for the average consumer? Yep. But I have little doubt that the stuff they're trying today with this $3500 device will one day be the normal standard for a $350 device.

It takes high risk, high money to pave the way for the products we'll take for granted in a decade. I see the Vision as a step forward to bringing VR/AR out of the realm of niche gaming devices and into a world where it's actually a useful product.

[Rumpy]

I think it looks like a ski mask

[Daehawk]

I wish I was younger so I could live long enough to use this stuff and beyond.

If this was like sunglasses size and cost $350 it would be great for everybody.

[Carpet_pissr]

I wish I was younger so I could live long enough to use this stuff and beyond.

If this was like sunglasses size and cost $350 it would be great for everybody.

It will be.

[Kurth]

The MKHBD reviews (he’s got like 3 different ones) on the Vision Pro are excellent. His conclusion - he loves it, not necessarily for what it is today, but for the promise it holds for the future and what it’s going to do for the AR/VR segment overall.

It’s like any first gen product: Tons of problems, but tons of potential.

Watching all these videos also makes me think Meta should be sending Apple a big thank you note. The $3500 Vision Pro is going to sell a lot of units of the $500 Meta Quest 3!

[Punisher]

I haven't been following that and for some reason thought is was $1000. Watching the video and thinking thats cool. Might be worth saving up for. Then he says 3k or 4k and my first thought is that the drugs I'm on are not syrong enough for that purchase.
It's ok. I have my Q3 and can wait several years.

[UsulofDoom]

I haven't been following that and for some reason thought is was $1000. Watching the video and thinking thats cool. Might be worth saving up for. Then he says 3k or 4k and my first thought is that the drugs I'm on are not syrong enough for that purchase.
It's ok. I have my Q3 and can wait several years.

That’s why I went for my Q3. I have a Mustang budget not a Bugatti budget.
Before you get any VR headset ,make sure you look at the VR fails videos on YouTube. You'r not gona want to see your new VR headset or other items in your house destroyed.

[Isgrimnur]

You'r not gona want to see ... other items in your house destroyed.

I mean, technically you're only going to see them after that.

[Pyperkub]

I wish I was younger so I could live long enough to use this stuff and beyond.

If this was like sunglasses size and cost $350 it would be great for everybody.

It will be.

Until then? Out.

I've tried VR a couple of times (phone gear-vr, psvr) and it has been ... ok, but having to wear a bulky headset, and deal with the weight, lens fog, heat, etc. far outweighs (literally, as well as figuratively) any benefits.

Google Glass and the MS Holo Lens have been intriguing from a cool tech POV, but ultimately both too expensive and too niche and not fully baked. Apple's seems like a 1.0 which desperately needs to get tov 2.1...

[Unagi]

I don’t see this type of product ever dropping that low. Maybe like $800 range some day. Maybe.

[Unagi]

These will likely be best bought as souvenirs / relics from an ancient society that once flew too close to the sun.

[Pyperkub]

I don’t see this type of product ever dropping that low. Maybe like $800 range some day. Maybe.

Eh, look at CES flatscreen tech getting thinner, lighter cheaper and better every year. Battery tech too. It'll get there (heck, for limited applications, it already is - they've had AR skiing goggles under $800 for years already).

And the recent loaner I had from Lexus had AR data being displayed on the windshield (stop signs, speed limits, etc.)

[Unagi]

I don’t see this type of product ever dropping that low. Maybe like $800 range some day. Maybe.

Eh, look at CES flatscreen tech getting thinner, lighter cheaper and better every year. Battery tech too. It'll get there (heck, for limited applications, it already is - they've had AR skiing goggles under $800 for years already).

And the recent loaner I had from Lexus had AR data being displayed on the windshield (stop signs, speed limits, etc.)

Just to be clear, none of your examples are really in line with the degree of hardware in the Apple Vision (which I'm sure you will agree), so I'm not sure what to say there. And I'm certainly not talking about windshield displays here at all.


I will just point to the iPhone. Since the original iPhone came out (or iPad) has the cost gone significantly down when compared to a new iPhone, middle-tier.

In 10 years, will there be some version of this that is $300? I doubt it. There may be a cheap Samsung version available for $500 or $600, but in that same 10 years there will be a middle tier "Apple Vision" that still sells for about $1,000-$2,000. Just like they have kept the iPhone's catalog of models at the same or slightly increasing costs over the years.


Total aside: Those REKKIE Smart Ski Goggles are super cool. Back in my heyday, I'd have been so all over that!

[EvilHomer3k]

It is likely, though, that there will be a $300 Quest, though. The Quest 2 was $200 over Christmas. The Quest 3 is $500. While I don't think this is being set up as a competitor to the quest the quest will continue to evolve and change. The Vision has a LOT further to go than the quest right now. Currently, the use case for the Vision is an office away from the office. Honestly, if someone wanted to use the quest 3 as an office it's powerful enough but nobody actually wants to do that (and if they did people would have created quest apps for it). On top of that a $500 laptop just does it better. We are a long way away from having something comfortable enough to wear all the time or even carry with you all the time. VR/AR is still firmly in the gaming category and the Vision has fewer games than the Newton.

I don't have anything against Apple. People complain about their pricing, etc. but at the end of the day they have a knack for turning cutting edge products into refined forms that we use every day.

Is the Vision way too pricy for the average consumer? Yep. But I have little doubt that the stuff they're trying today with this $3500 device will one day be the normal standard for a $350 device.

It takes high risk, high money to pave the way for the products we'll take for granted in a decade. I see the Vision as a step forward to bringing VR/AR out of the realm of niche gaming devices and into a world where it's actually a useful product.

Do they, though? They have the iPhone and iPad. I'm not aware of anything else they've had great success with. Even the iPhone wasn't the hardware, it was the app store that made it. They came up with a way to make it easy for people to get their games on their phone. Gaming and apps are what made the iphone, not the refined hardware. The vision is a neat toy. It's go no real use right now. It's not something you can carry with you or wear every day. I'm not sure it ever will be. I think they're going down the wrong path emulating traditional headsets. A headset will never be small enough to wear all the time. Glasses might be but even that is a tough sell since a large number of people already wear glasses. And really, who besides youtubers really wants to be able to work everywhere? No one wants to do spreadsheets. For the quest to be something people walk around with it will have to have perfect finger tracking, be comfortable enough to wear all day, have all day battery life, and be portable enough to put in your pocket. That's a lot more than 10 years away.

[Carpet_pissr]

They have the iPhone and iPad. I'm not aware of anything else they've had great success with.

Other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play?

Completely disagree about the Apple HW not having anything to do with their success. When the first iPhone launched (which I bought), it was much nicer than anything on the market (that I knew of at least). Wasn't even close. The quality, the finish, materials, etc. The UI, the speed of the UI...all of those non-app store things were what made people pony up so much money for a 1st gen product. The app store "clincher" came later IIRC, where that was THE big advantage that Apple held over competitors.

[YellowKing]

How about the iPod? That product completely revolutionized the entire music industry. Just because they've been replaced by our phones doesn't mean that device didn't change the world.

Apple has a way to make nerdy tech sleek and cool and appealing to the masses. That's their superpower. It doesn't always mean their product will be the "best" once the competitors start cranking out product, but they open the door to the market.

Microsoft has been talking about an AR headset for years and years and haven't done a damn thing with it. You need companies that are willing to step up and put it out there, warts and all, to show people the possibility. It's really not about the Apple Vision 1.0. It's about opening the door to VR/AR as a non-gaming device.

[RunningMn9]

Even the iPhone wasn't the hardware, it was the app store that made it. They came up with a way to make it easy for people to get their games on their phone. Gaming and apps are what made the iphone, not the refined hardware.

This feels like when crusty old Republicans tell young Democrats why young Democrats voted for Obama.

In other words, gaming and apps did not make the iPhone. At least not in the way that it sounds like you are implying (maybe I’m wrong about that though).

There are elements of the software side of the house that helped Apple, and no doubt the walled garden of delight has kept users over the years - but the early days of the iPhone were *definitely* about the hardware with its target demographic (which wasn’t us incidentally).

That said, this might be the oldest old people thread on OO. Watching old people shit on new technology that they don’t see any need for…yikes.

There isn’t a human on these forums that is in the target demographic for any of this. That’s the main reason you don’t see the utility. It’s not for you!

[Carpet_pissr]

I’m not sure those reviewers saw the “utility” in it either, but they all proclaimed what a cool toy it is (and likely the future, best implementation of VR to date, etc).

I for one, would love one to dick around with.

Hell, I’d love one just for the movie watching alone if it’s high res enough.

I look forward to the second gen, non-Pro version of this to see what they can do with price.

[RunningMn9]

I look forward to the second gen, non-Pro version of this to see what they can do with price.

This is YK's premise, no? To get to the 2nd gen, there is the necessary 1st gen.

[gbasden]

Microsoft has been talking about an AR headset for years and years and haven't done a damn thing with it. You need companies that are willing to step up and put it out there, warts and all, to show people the possibility. It's really not about the Apple Vision 1.0. It's about opening the door to VR/AR as a non-gaming device.

Point of order. Microsoft hasn't done anything with the Hololens for consumers. There is a niche but thriving business market and it is enabling some very cool things. I'm currently working with one of my customers on a project that includes using Hololens to visualize a disaster area and then run simulations of what-if scenarios. It's quite neat. There are some very interesting projects that some very large companies are doing with the headset.

[YellowKing]

Ooh that's good to hear gbasden. That thing had completely fallen out of the news so it's good to hear it's not only alive but it being used.

[EvilHomer3k]

Even the iPhone wasn't the hardware, it was the app store that made it. They came up with a way to make it easy for people to get their games on their phone. Gaming and apps are what made the iphone, not the refined hardware.

This feels like when crusty old Republicans tell young Democrats why young Democrats voted for Obama.

In other words, gaming and apps did not make the iPhone. At least not in the way that it sounds like you are implying (maybe I’m wrong about that though).

There are elements of the software side of the house that helped Apple, and no doubt the walled garden of delight has kept users over the years - but the early days of the iPhone were *definitely* about the hardware with its target demographic (which wasn’t us incidentally).

That said, this might be the oldest old people thread on OO. Watching old people shit on new technology that they don’t see any need for…yikes.

There isn’t a human on these forums that is in the target demographic for any of this. That’s the main reason you don’t see the utility. It’s not for you!

You've been a crusty old republican telling young democrats why they're wrong since the 1990s so you should know.

I'll give on the design aspects of the iPhone being a driver of it's success.

If, as you say, I'm not the target audience then who is? I have a much higher than average curiosity for VR and technology. I had several phone based VR headsets. I currently own 3 VR headsets (Q1,2,3). My primary gaming is on the Quest 3 (which I got on launch day). I have kids who are 20, 18, and 10. We play VR games together. I have spent time working in a virtual desktop and side loaded apps onto my quest. I own an iphone, apple watch, ipad, macbook, and airpods. Honestly, if I'm not part of the target audience it must be pretty small.

The price reflects that small target demographic. This product will never be less than $1000 I doubt it will ever be below $2,000. The iPhone, was $499 at launch which compares to other phones like the Motorola Q which had an MSRP of $419. The LG Prada had an MSRP of $800. The Nokia N95 was $700. The Vision is priced similarly to the HoloLens and way above other headset on the market. Unlike the iPhone you need to be fully into the apple ecosystem. It only shows a mac display. No windows connection. It's a niche product in a niche market and is priced as such. Phones were not a niche market. The iPhone was priced similarly to other phones available at the time.

None of the use cases I've seen from even the most fervent pro-apple user has given a use case for it that the average person will find useful or appealing at the price Apple is asking. iJustine was super excited to edit videos on a plane. MKBHD was excited about iMessage. Someone else said it was great for watching 3d movies (which several youtubers have said). The Verge did a video on it that's pretty good at pointing out both the good and bad. They also spent a fair amount of time on video calls. And that does show where I'm not the target demographic. Apple isn't trying to invade the VR space but trying to put a phone/laptop on your face. Which makes it even more of a niche product. It makes the gap in what they want to do and what even this advanced technology can do.

I'm not saying the Vision isn't a jump in technology or that it's useless. It's pretty amazing and has the best technology of any VR headset by far. I'm saying it's not something that the general populace will buy. It costs way too much and does too little. It's in a niche market and is priced as a niche product even within that niche market. Honestly, it seems like it was made for youtubers and really no one else. Could it become a mass market product someday? Of course. With Apple's money they can pretty much make anything work. But it's going to have to go through numerous generations of changes and a massive price reduction in order to have mass appeal. It's going to need to require someone besides Apple to sink a bunch of R&D into making useful things for it.

I'll link the vision pro review by the Verge again as it seems like the most realistic take on the Vision.

[YellowKing]

FWIW I agree - I do think it's a niche product with a niche price, and I don't think Apple is under any illusion that it's not. I don't think that necessarily negates the idea that it could open the door to a broader acceptance of VR as a multi-purpose device.

[AWS260]

VR - "about to change the world" since 2015.

[Daehawk]

They've said that since the 90s

[Rumpy]

FWIW I agree - I do think it's a niche product with a niche price, and I don't think Apple is under any illusion that it's not. I don't think that necessarily negates the idea that it could open the door to a broader acceptance of VR as a multi-purpose device.

At that price, it's probably not gonna happen. Something cheaper is going to come along and steal their thunder, because that's certainly not an entry-level price point.

[YellowKing]

Something cheapers don't come along until something expensive makes the first move.

[Rumpy]

That's true, but it's not like Apple is exactly the first, at least when talking AR. Remember Google Glass? So, maybe Apple's take is more prolific, but also the most expensive to date. The odds are kind of stacked against them on this. It actually kind of reminds me of the Apple Newton, in the sense that it was expensive and had trouble gaining traction against the Palm Pilot.

[Carpet_pissr]

That's true, but it's not like Apple is exactly the first, at least when talking AR. Remember Google Glass? So, maybe Apple's take is more prolific, but also the most expensive to date. The odds are kind of stacked against them on this. It actually kind of reminds me of the Apple Newton, in the sense that it was expensive and had trouble gaining traction against the Palm Pilot.

I'm guessing they will release a non-Pro version that will be around the $1,000 price point.

[Unagi]

That's true, but it's not like Apple is exactly the first, at least when talking AR. Remember Google Glass? So, maybe Apple's take is more prolific, but also the most expensive to date. The odds are kind of stacked against them on this. It actually kind of reminds me of the Apple Newton, in the sense that it was expensive and had trouble gaining traction against the Palm Pilot.

From what I've watched, the Apple Vision has put a lot more hardware (CPU, memory, storage, camera and display) than any of the previous things we've seen.


Google Glass:
$1,500
1 CPU (OMAP 4430)
2 GB RAM
16 GB Storage max
Display: 640x360 projector (eq. to 25" screen from 8')

Apple Vision Pro:
$3,500
1 CPU (Apple M2 System on a Chip)
16 GB RAM
256 GB - 1 TB Storage
Display: 3660x3200 per eye (eq. to WUHD)

[EvilHomer3k]

That's true, but it's not like Apple is exactly the first, at least when talking AR. Remember Google Glass? So, maybe Apple's take is more prolific, but also the most expensive to date. The odds are kind of stacked against them on this. It actually kind of reminds me of the Apple Newton, in the sense that it was expensive and had trouble gaining traction against the Palm Pilot.

From what I've watched, the Apple Vision has put a lot more hardware (CPU, memory, storage, camera and display) than any of the previous things we've seen.


Google Glass:
$1,500
1 CPU (OMAP 4430)
2 GB RAM
16 GB Storage max
Display: 640x360 projector (eq. to 25" screen from 8')

Apple Vision Pro:
$3,500
1 CPU (Apple M2 System on a Chip)
16 GB RAM
256 GB - 1 TB Storage
Display: 3660x3200 per eye (eq. to WUHD)

Quest 3
$499
1 CPU Qualcom Snapdragon XR2 Gen 2
8GB Ram
128GB - 512GB storage
Display: 2064x2208

The Vision Pro has more capable hardware. Geekbench scores of the M2 for the Vision are way ahead of the Quest (2444/7854 vs 720/1540. The Quest is honestly held back by it's processor. The Galaxy S23 doubles the Quests scores at 1573 and 3873.

The quest 1 has a lot more power than Google Glass. For what Apple wants to do they need to get the processing power and resolution they have into the google glass form factor. It needs to be something people want to wear that other people don't notice and doesn't look so clunky and dorky.
I saw a glasses based AR device that connects to a phone. With the battery tether already there, Apple could have made this connect to a phone. They could have cut out the need for fan based cooling, shrunk the device down, and cut the price significantly.

[Unagi]

I don't disagree with any of that.

[Rumpy]

I mean, there's no argument that it's got better hardware and that it's more capable, but will that be enough? We're starrting to come to a point where VR is starting to become more affordable, yet the Apple Vision is priced way out in the opposite direction. Being already niche to begin with, I could see this get low adoption.

We've seen plenty of examples throughout tech history where something was technically 'better' but flopped due to their high barrier to entry.

[Unagi]

I guess the only point I'm trying to make is that it is more expensive in no small part because it has so many cameras and displays, etc - with CPU and storage unlike any other VR/AR Headset.


Is there a market for something like that now - given what that, all put together, will cost? Not sure.

I would love to play with one, but it's built, engineered, and hence priced into a level of extravagance I can't justify to myself. yet.