tesla motors

[Zaxxon]

Isn't it? It is priced and equipped as a grand tourer not as a commuter.

It seems priced and equipped as a fancy around town car for rich folks, but that's just my opinion.

Considering that there is no comparable car on the market, it's difficult to say based on price that it's 'priced as a grand tourer'. It has a 265-mile range at the top end ($80k-$100k) when driven conservatively--if that's a grand tourer, you have rather pedestrian standards for grand tourers.

It's the first workable fully-electric vehicle on the market. I think they've done a bang-up job, but it's not cheap and electric cars have a PITA factor right now. If Tesla sees continued success, that PITA factor will be greatly diminished in just a few years. Between additional Supercharger locations, non-Tesla chargers, and continued 5-10% annual improvement in battery range / cost reduction, I don't think it'll be too long before we have legitimate charging options all along populated areas, EVs that cost half what the Model S does, and 400-500 mile ranges on EV batteries.

Then Tesla will have an EV worthy of being called a grand tourer.

Note that I have driven the Model S and think it's a ridiculously awesome vehicle--far and away the most fun to drive car that I've ever driven. I'd love to own one. But in a few years the justification will be far easier.

[cheeba]

Considering that there is no comparable car on the market, it's difficult to say based on price that it's 'priced as a grand tourer'. It has a 265-mile range at the top end ($80k-$100k) when driven conservatively--if that's a grand tourer, you have rather pedestrian standards for grand tourers.

It's the first workable fully-electric vehicle on the market. I think they've done a bang-up job, but it's not cheap and electric cars have a PITA factor right now. If Tesla sees continued success, that PITA factor will be greatly diminished in just a few years. Between additional Supercharger locations, non-Tesla chargers, and continued 5-10% annual improvement in battery range / cost reduction, I don't think it'll be too long before we have legitimate charging options all along populated areas, EVs that cost half what the Model S does, and 400-500 mile ranges on EV batteries.

Then Tesla will have an EV worthy of being called a grand tourer.

Note that I have driven the Model S and think it's a ridiculously awesome vehicle--far and away the most fun to drive car that I've ever driven. I'd love to own one. But in a few years the justification will be far easier.

I dunno if I'd say there is no comparable car on the market. I'd say the Volt and Leaf (and whichever Prius model that one is) are comparable. Not from a performance standpoint, of course, but for people who are just looking to run around town on an electric charge they definitely are. And then there's the damn Fisker Karma. Ugh. That one would be comparable from a luxury/performance standpoint.

And "continued success" isn't really accurate when talking about Tesla. The only reason the company exists is because of hugenormous government subsidies (not auto bailout huge, but still rather big).

[Zaxxon]

Volt, Leaf and Prius are not even remotely comparable.

By continued success, I mean as far as producing highly-rated cars and setting the standard for EVs.

[cheeba]

Volt, Leaf and Prius are not even remotely comparable.

Of course they are. They're all EV's. By far the primary defining feature of the Tesla, Volt, Leaf, Prius Plug-In is that they plug in. If you wanna run solely on electricity, you've got a small handful of cars from which to choose. That makes them comparable. If you do a search for plug-ins, these are the cars that will always come up.

[Zaxxon]

Volt, Leaf and Prius are not even remotely comparable.

Of course they are. They're all EV's. By far the primary defining feature of the Tesla, Volt, Leaf, Prius Plug-In is that they plug in. If you wanna run solely on electricity, you've got a small handful of cars from which to choose. That makes them comparable. If you do a search for plug-ins, these are the cars that will always come up.

Well sure, in the same way that a Yaris, Accord, and 'Vette are all comparable vehicles that run on gas. I know you already allowed that they're not comparable from a performance standpoint, and that's what I was getting at. It's true that they all have an electric component, but that doesn't make them truly comparable any more than having a gas engine makes the ones I just listed comparable. They don't achieve the same goal--having kick-ass performance while actually allowing a range that doesn't keep you tethered to your house. Only the S does that.

The Leaf is closest, but the performance isn't in the same league, much less ballpark.

I own two Priuses, and comparing either to the Model S is laughable.

[Kasey Chang]

Volt, Leaf and Prius are not even remotely comparable.

Of course they are. They're all EV's.

Actually, only Leaf is EV. Volt and Prius are hybrids. And Prius, unless you get the plug-in model, cannot even be recharged.

[cheeba]

Volt, Leaf and Prius are not even remotely comparable.

Of course they are. They're all EV's.

Actually, only Leaf is EV. Volt and Prius are hybrids. And Prius, unless you get the plug-in model, cannot even be recharged.

Fucking semantics, man, lol.

If you drive the Volt like 25-30 miles or whatever it is, it is most definitely an EV. And I took special care to mention that particular Prius, so I don't know why that didn't get through to you.

[Isgrimnur]

The entry level Model S (40 kWh model) is dead.

Orders and deliveries of the Tesla Model S are reaching a fever pitch, except for one: the lowest-spec, 40 kWh battery pack. So Tesla has decided to nix the entry-level model. But as with all things Tesla, it’s a bit more complicated.

The decision to eliminate the Model S with the 40 kWh battery was based purely on demand. According to the automaker, a scant 4 percent of pre-orders were for the $52,400 (after $7,500 federal tax rebate) 40 kWh battery option, which Tesla maintains “is not enough to justify production of that version.”

But here’s the twist.

Customers that pre-ordered the 40 kWh model will still get what they ordered, but instead their new Model S will come equipped with the larger 60 kWh battery, but with its output limited to 40 kWh via the software. That tweak will reduce range from the claimed 230 to 160 miles, but as a consolation prize, the Model S will retain the 60 kWh model’s bump in performance. That means a better 0-60 mph time (5.9 vs. 6.5 seconds), a higher top speed (120 vs. 110 mph), with 302 horsepower and 317 pound-feet of torque, up from the entry-level Model S’ 235 hp and 310 lb-ft of twist.

But here’s the real kicker: If you want to free up the extra 20 kWh by removing the software limiter, it’ll cost you a cool $10,000 — the same price to go from the 40 to 60 kWh model. That makes it the world’s most expensive software upgrade, but bully for Tesla for at least making it an option for both original and second-hand owners.
...
And one last interesting tidbit from Tesla: The automaker has been covertly installing the Supercharger hardware on all its 60 kWh models, which was normally an upgrade on the standard car. That means that mid-range Model S owners will be able to take advantage of Tesla’s Supercharger network

[Zaxxon]

I imagine it's cheaper for them to eat the cost of the 60 kWh packs on the few 40 kWh orders than to produce the third battery for such a small # of orders. And those that ordered 40 kWh packs get supercharger capability, higher top speed and greater acceleration. Seems win-win to me.

And the stock sure is soaring today, albeit likely more for the increased quarterly sales rather than for the battery news.

[Brian]

Man, even cars are coming with DLC now.

[McNutt]

Car and Driver answered my burning question, how much does a tank of electricity cost for one of those Teslas? I think for the 60kWh model they said around $11 for a full charge.

[coopasonic]

Car and Driver answered my burning question, how much does a tank of electricity cost for one of those Teslas? I think for the 60kWh model they said around $11 for a full charge.

The math is not all that difficult here. I suppose you have to factor in some inefficiency, but still.

[geezer]

Austin is basically crawling with these things, relatively speaking. Probably see at least one a week if not more (which is significantly more that other exotic vehicles). I've been tempted, but it would take a smaller, GT-type car (think M3/911 competitor) or a cool shooting-brake sportwagon thing to get me into one. Bigass sedans don't do anything useful for me... All the size of a wagon or small SUV without any of the actual usefulness.

[Zaxxon]

Car and Driver answered my burning question, how much does a tank of electricity cost for one of those Teslas? I think for the 60kWh model they said around $11 for a full charge.

Depends on what your electricity rate is. Here in Colorado, for example, it's about $0.09/kWh so a full 'tank' on a 60 kWh battery would be $5.40. Where this really gets interesting for me is in just a few more years, when solar panels are a bit cheaper and more efficient so that a roof system brings my average energy bill to $0 and powers our cars, too.

And when it's the Gen3 Tesla...

[El Guapo]

You'd think someone would just hack the software limitation on the 40 kWh version. Though I suppose that'd probably void any service warranty.

[coopasonic]

I've only seen one on the road in Dallas, but then I don't drive very far day to day and I don't live where the money is.

Austin is basically crawling with these things, relatively speaking. Probably see at least one a week if not more (which is significantly more that other exotic vehicles). I've been tempted, but it would take a smaller, GT-type car (think M3/911 competitor) or a cool shooting-brake sportwagon thing to get me into one. Bigass sedans don't do anything useful for me... All the size of a wagon or small SUV without any of the actual usefulness.

Was the Tesla Roadster too small? I think there is supposed to be a new Roadster next year based on a shrunken Model S platform.

[coopasonic]

You'd think someone would just hack the software limitation on the 40 kWh version. Though I suppose that'd probably void any service warranty.

Have you seen the articles where someone complains about something with the Tesla and the techs access the car remotely to investigate/fix? I am not sure you want to jailbreak your Tesla. They know.

[geezer]

I've only seen one on the road in Dallas, but then I don't drive very far day to day and I don't live where the money is.

Austin is basically crawling with these things, relatively speaking. Probably see at least one a week if not more (which is significantly more that other exotic vehicles). I've been tempted, but it would take a smaller, GT-type car (think M3/911 competitor) or a cool shooting-brake sportwagon thing to get me into one. Bigass sedans don't do anything useful for me... All the size of a wagon or small SUV without any of the actual usefulness.

Was the Tesla Roadster too small? I think there is supposed to be a new Roadster next year based on a shrunken Model S platform.

Not too small, but I have an Elise already. For daily city commuting and local travel I'd want something a bit more versatile. The roadster is out of production regardless, so Id have to go used and I'm not sure I'd want 1st gen tech in a car like this.

[McNutt]

The math is not all that difficult here. I suppose you have to factor in some inefficiency, but still.

Of course not, but I never happen to know off hand what my electricity rate is and I'm too lazy to look it up. I'm glad they did the leg work for me.

[Jaymon]

Even if the pure electric come down in cost, I don't believe they are going to catch the general public. And my reasoning is, there is no place them plug them in.
Sure there are folks who have houses and driveways, but what about the rest of us, who have apartments, or street parking only?
Can you imagine the chaos of extension cords across the sidewalks? All the sidewalks? Every night?
And what do you do if you run out of juice while driving? Let it sit on the side and walk to a gas station to get a bucket of batteries?

Until electricity become easily portable without wires, we need a hybrid solution. Whether is gasoline, bio-diesel, hydrogen, or something else.

For an awful lot of people, a pure electric car is completely impracticable.

[Zaxxon]

Today's announcement - Leases / guaranteed residual value. They also added a true cost of ownership calculator. I'm not a fan of that calculator--while everything it includes is technically true, it's reaching a bit IMO. Cost of your time to stop and get gas? Really? It's true, but they're not counting the 15 seconds you will spend every time you exit your shiny new electric car to plug it in, either.

I do think this announcement will be good for Tesla overall. I imagine there's a group of folks interested in the S but scared away by having to buy a $70k-$80k car with relatively unproven technology. Change that to a 3-year lease with a guaranteed 43% residual after 3 years and the barrier to entry drops considerably for some.

[Zaxxon]

I may be the only one interested enough to keep following these announcements, but just in case I'm not... Last week Tesla improved their warranty/service offering a bit. The notable changes:

-Service loaner cars will soon be converted from rentals to fully-loaded P85 Model S cars. If your car is in for service and you like the loaner better, Tesla will trade it to you at a depreciated cost based on its age and mileage and your current car's value.

-When service is needed, Tesla will valet the loaner to you and pick up your car for free.

-Annual service is now optional. This is one that they just had to do, since requiring annual manufacturer service to maintain a factory warranty is illegal in the US. Requiring this service also served to torpedo Tesla's claims that EVs will last longer and be cheaper to maintain compared to ICE vehicles when they required a $475+ service every year.

-The biggest one, to me--unless you take a blowtorch to your battery, failure of the battery is covered for 8 years. Even if it dies from user error. I still don't think Tesla is going far enough--they are nebulous on the expected range decrease over time and do not warrant against 'normal' range degradation--but this should help reduce fears of a giant battery replacement cost.

Supposedly there's a big Supercharger expansion announcement coming up later this week or next. We'll see. I think that's the biggest remaining hindrance to wider acceptance (at least among those who can afford an S). Several Superchargers in CA and a few on the East coast just don't cut it. According to Tesla's plans, eventually you will be able to take an S cross-country for free using nothing but free, extremely fast Superchargers.

[Vorret]

I think the cars look real good but they're so far off my price range that I don't even bother looking at it.

If they ever make one in the 20-30k price range then yea, I'm most likely going to buy one since electricity is so cheap in Quebec.

[Paingod]

Today's announcement - Leases / guaranteed residual value. They also added a true cost of ownership calculator. I'm not a fan of that calculator--while everything it includes is technically true, it's reaching a bit IMO. Cost of your time to stop and get gas? Really? It's true, but they're not counting the 15 seconds you will spend every time you exit your shiny new electric car to plug it in, either.

They don't dock the Tesla for you missing the chance to grab a soda, get the smell of gasoline on your hands accidentally, or a free offer of a squeegee to wash your windows while you pump.

[coopasonic]

I may be the only one interested enough to keep following these announcements, but just in case I'm not...

You are not the only one interested. Of course, I am interested, but can't afford it, so it's a small difference and having this get bumped up just makes me sad...

$1100/mo for the base and $1500/mo for the fun one. I would have to use a LOT more gas to make that worthwhile. I guess idf I was in the market for something more upscale than my G37 it might be a choice, but I'm not.

[stessier]

I'm happy they are expanding the Supercharger network. I hope it is a case of "build it, and they will come". I wouldn't care if non-Tesla owners had to pay to use it, it would be great if other cars could use the network.

[Zaxxon]

The cost is closer than you might think. I made up a cost comparison spreadsheet last year when we were shopping for a replacement for our old Camry (wound up with a Prius V), and the bottom line was that over 8 years and 125k miles, a $75k Model S would have a lower cost of ownership than a $46k Highlander Hybrid or $37k Venza (a couple of the other cars we were looking at). That is greatly aided by the $7500 federal tax credit and $6k Colorado credit along with Colorado's relatively cheap electricity rates, though.

Can't get it to the same ballpark as a Prius, though. I do think that if Tesla keeps doing well and the upcoming Model X isn't a failure, then the third-gen sedan that's to follow has the potential to be wildly successful. By 2017 when it's supposed to hit, a 400+ mile range and < $40k starting price should be reality.

I'm happy they are expanding the Supercharger network. I hope it is a case of "build it, and they will come". I wouldn't care if non-Tesla owners had to pay to use it, it would be great if other cars could use the network.

It's a proprietary thing right now, but there are some rumors that they may eventually support Daimler EVs (Daimler is a Tesla investor and partner). I'm not sure how that would work since Superchargers work differently on a fundamental level from the standard charge options that are out there.

[coopasonic]

The cost is closer than you might think. I made up a cost comparison spreadsheet last year when we were shopping for a replacement for our old Camry (wound up with a Prius V), and the bottom line was that over 8 years and 125k miles, a $75k Model S would have a lower cost of ownership than a $46k Highlander Hybrid or $37k Venza (a couple of the other cars we were looking at). That is greatly aided by the $7500 federal tax credit and $6k Colorado credit along with Colorado's relatively cheap electricity rates, though.

Can't get it to the same ballpark as a Prius, though. I do think that if Tesla keeps doing well and the upcoming Model X isn't a failure, then the third-gen sedan that's to follow has the potential to be wildly successful. By 2017 when it's supposed to hit, a 400+ mile range and < $40k starting price should be reality.

My gas expense is about $150/mo it will take a LONG time to make up tens of thousands of dollars at that rate and I don't keep cars that long.

[Kasey Chang]

They really need to change the name of those charging stations though. All gearheads know supercharger means forced induction.

[stessier]

They really need to change the name of those charging stations though. All gearheads know supercharger means forced induction.

That's kind of how they work, just with electricity.

[Zaxxon]

Tesla's stock hit a new all-time high today. We'll see if that holds up after Wednesday's earnings call. They also announced today that they've hired away Aston Martin's chief designer. I don't know the dude's history, but it seems that to leave that job for Tesla, you'd have to think they were going to be going places...

[em2nought]

...or you could buy ten of these instead https://www.eliomotors.com/" target="_blank

[cheeba]

Speaking of Tesla, there's also now Detroit Electric, which appears to be going down the exact same path, right down to the Lotus. Wonder if they'll also get half a billion from the guvment.

[Zaxxon]

Speaking of Tesla, there's also now Detroit Electric, which appears to be going down the exact same path, right down to the Lotus. Wonder if they'll also get half a billion from the guvment.

I don't know. Maybe they should hope for more like the $1.45B that Nissan got--or better yet, the $5.9B that Ford got.

[cheeba]

Speaking of Tesla, there's also now Detroit Electric, which appears to be going down the exact same path, right down to the Lotus. Wonder if they'll also get half a billion from the guvment.

I don't know. Maybe they should hope for more like the $1.45B that Nissan got--or better yet, the $5.9B that Ford got.

Oh come on, don't be such a fan boy. I'm not attacking your beloved Tesla here . The fact of the matter is these companies (Tesla, a success, and Fisker, a failure) have been getting huge loans from the government. Unfortunately, the process to make these "green" cars uses more resources than these cars will likely ever save. What's more, the cars they make are way out of reach for the average consumer.

The country would be better off if we had taken the $600 million or whatever it invested in Tesla and Fisker and instead used that to pay for clean diesel improvements.

[Zaxxon]

[nasai]

Austin is basically crawling with these things, relatively speaking. Probably see at least one a week if not more (which is significantly more that other exotic vehicles). I've been tempted, but it would take a smaller, GT-type car (think M3/911 competitor) or a cool shooting-brake sportwagon thing to get me into one. Bigass sedans don't do anything useful for me... All the size of a wagon or small SUV without any of the actual usefulness.

Yes, I'd say I see one at least once every two days, if not sometimes up to 3 a day in Bellevue. I guess that's what happens when you live in a tech heavy market. I'd love to own one, but even if I were to pull the trigger, I despise early adoption. I'll wait a few years and let them get the bugs out (and bring in better battery life).

[stessier]

NC is leading the country once again.

NC attempts to pass law making it illegal to sell a car without going through a dealership.

A legislative proposal, backed by the N.C. Automobile Dealers Association, would make it illegal for Tesla, or any other car maker, to bypass dealerships and sell directly in the state. The proposal cuts at the heart of Tesla’s business model: selling luxury cars over the phone or Internet and then delivering them to the front door of high-net-worth customers.

[cheeba]

“The whole point of the retail system is to protect the consumer.”

Wow, lol.


Not too surprised, though. Car dealerships are organized and powerful.

[Carpet_pissr]

Aaaaaaand PROFITABLE:

"After ten years in the red, Tesla Motors, a maker of electric cars based in Silicon Valley, has turned a profit of $11.2m in the first quarter on unexpectedly strong demand for its new Model S sedan. The results were well above the forecasts of even the most optimistic analysts"

Source: The Economist