Octopus Overlords

YellowKing wrote: ↑Thu Feb 11, 2021 12:32 pm The issue (for Disney) is that by starring in a hit show for DisneyPlus, she's at least in some small part representing their brand. You can't blame them for not wanting an apparently anti-Semitic, transphobic Covid-denier as a face of their company. I'm not sure what real options they had other than termination. I'm assuming at some point she was asked to stop before they axed her, as her tweets have been going on awhile.

Is there anything anti-Semitic other than Republicans in America = Jews in Nazi Germany?

El Guapo wrote: ↑Thu Feb 11, 2021 12:58 pm

YellowKing wrote: ↑Thu Feb 11, 2021 12:32 pm The issue (for Disney) is that by starring in a hit show for DisneyPlus, she's at least in some small part representing their brand. You can't blame them for not wanting an apparently anti-Semitic, transphobic Covid-denier as a face of their company. I'm not sure what real options they had other than termination. I'm assuming at some point she was asked to stop before they axed her, as her tweets have been going on awhile.

Is there anything anti-Semitic other than Republicans in America = Jews in Nazi Germany?

Indeed, equating a clumsy Godwin's law analogy to outright anti-Semitism seems like laughably exaggerated and absurd pearl-clutching. So is there something else you're referring to here, Yellowking?

I don't think it's just the Nazi thing either. I didn't realize she came out swinging on gender identity issues. Having just learned that Pedro Pascal has a sister that recently publicly identified as transgender (and he's been vocally supportive), I have to believe that's a potentially hostile workplace scenario as well.

She mentioned earlier that Pedro enlightened her on why what she was doing was offensive. It sounds like it was a teaching moment, maybe one that was lost. Not sure.

Her tweets after that seemed pretty forgettable. I mean someone close to her should have told her that she needs to lay off Instagram and not repost things. But there was nothing anti semetic. Making yourself and your party the victim does not mean you are a bad person. Annoying, sure, but there was no need for pitchforks at this point.

A shame she went over to the dark side. I was a fan. WAS.

I don't know that there was any other thing anti-Semitic other than her most recent post. But people have been fired for a single tweet before, so shrug. It doesn't take much when you're that high profile.

I'm very meh on it, too. I don't think anything she said or did individually rose to the level of being particularly vile, but she had plenty of runway to course-correct. I mean, she's aware that she works for the Mouse, right?

Runway ran out.

YellowKing wrote: ↑Thu Feb 11, 2021 1:52 pm I don't know that there was any other thing anti-Semitic other than her most recent post. But people have been fired for a single tweet before, so shrug. It doesn't take much when you're that high profile.

Partly I'm just curious about whether others view that as anti-Semitic. I know our local ADL recently talked to a gun store in the area and got them to take down a pro-gun control quote from Hitler. I didn't find that to be particularly anti-Semitic either (since it's premised on Hitler = bad), but obviously at least some other people do, so just kind of curious what the general consensus on that kind of thing is.

She was done back in November. Her PR firm dropped her first. Then she was left off a big announcement about the new SW show in December. This was the final straw, not an isolated incident.

For your reference, this is how the conversation went:

https://twitter.com/AnthonyIrwinLA/stat ... 41600?s=20

El Guapo wrote:so just kind of curious what the general consensus on that kind of thing is.

For me personally comparing anything (much less something as minor as perceived grievances against your political affiliation) to the Holocaust is incredibly tone-deaf. While it may not make me immediately jump to the conclusion that you're anti-Semitic, it does imply that you're exceptionally un-sympathetic towards the Jewish community.

The gun store sign is the same deal - you may not be coming right out and saying it, but you're implying at the least a profound lack of caring and compassion as to how your words might offend. And at worst, you're purposefully letting people read between the lines.

YellowKing wrote: ↑Thu Feb 11, 2021 2:48 pm

El Guapo wrote:so just kind of curious what the general consensus on that kind of thing is.

For me personally comparing anything (much less something as minor as perceived grievances against your political affiliation) to the Holocaust is incredibly tone-deaf. While it may not make me immediately jump to the conclusion that you're anti-Semitic…

But isn't that precisely what you did here? Because here's what you said and posted earlier:

YellowKing wrote: ↑Thu Feb 11, 2021 12:32 pm The issue (for Disney) is that by starring in a hit show for DisneyPlus, she's at least in some small part representing their brand. You can't blame them for not wanting an apparently anti-Semitic…

So you were clearly implying that something Carano said or posted was "apparently anti-Semitic." So can you please clarify what, exactly, that was if it was indeed so readily "apparent"?

I can see how my wording was unclear, but I was posting that from Disney's perspective, not my own. Hence my wording of (for Disney) and "apparently." They're seeing that tweet, and as a very visible corporation, they're probably drawing that conclusion based on the content. (Or at the very least, they're seeing that it could be construed that way, which is enough).

I have no idea if she's truly anti-Semitic or not, but that remark didn't help her case any.

I think Disney was acting on an educated guess that she would eventually say something really bad since she seems to be heading in that direction. It's better to move on from her now and not when she has become too important to their IP to remove without serious cost.

Politics aside, I'm not upset to see her go. She didn't have great acting chops IMO, and it seemed like they were contractually obligated to let her showcase her MMA skills in every episode.

Why else would you hire her?

Isgrimnur wrote: ↑Thu Feb 11, 2021 5:42 pm Why else would you hire her?

Is that a trick question? Because I wouldn't hire her. I would hire someone who could act better.

Why else would they hire her?

Isgrimnur wrote: ↑Thu Feb 11, 2021 5:44 pm Why else would they hire her?

Is that another trick question? I would assume they would want to hire someone who was a good actress who could handle action scenes. I then assume they would work her action sequences into the show organically instead of having her MMA action scenes stick out like a sore thumb.

Isgrimnur wrote: ↑Thu Feb 11, 2021 5:44 pm Why else would they hire her?

Let's not get into gender pronouns!

Honestly, I don't see anything remotely anti-semitic in her tweet. Her false equivalency was offensive but it didn't come off to me as anti-semitic... Am I missing something?

You could probably frame a claim that Trumpists are being treated like the Jews were in the lead-up to the Holocaust as being somewhat antisemitic on the grounds that it trivializes the Holocaust, as well as the fact that it plays to the white nationalist "White Genocide" myth.

I think what she wrote was offensive (as well as fucking stupid) but I don't read it as trivializing the holocaust at all. And, I still don't think it is in and of itself antisemitic.

Max Peck wrote: ↑Thu Feb 11, 2021 8:35 pm You could probably frame a claim that Trumpists are being treated like the Jews were in the lead-up to the Holocaust as being somewhat antisemitic on the grounds that it trivializes the Holocaust, as well as the fact that it plays to the white nationalist "White Genocide" myth.

Yes, but if trivializing the Holocaust is supposed to be strictly verboten, then as Kyle Smith wryly observed in the New York Post, should Pedro Pascal, the lead actor, on "The Mandalorian" also be shitcanned for his tweet in 2018?

@PedroPascal1 wrote:

Kyle Smith wrote:Trivializing the Holocaust is fine as long as you’re doing so in the course of attacking anybody on the right, and we know this because the lead actor on “The Mandalorian” did so. In June 2018, Pedro Pascal sent out a tweet suggesting two things were alike: One image, captioned “Germany, 1944,” depicted Jews behind barbed wire. The second, captioned “America, 2018,” was meant to suggest young accused illegal immigrants behind bars in America. (Actually, it was a 2010 picture of Palestinian kids awaiting meals at a soup kitchen.)

Even if Pascal had used an actual picture of American 2018 detention facilities to make his point, these two situations are … not remotely alike. Breaking immigration laws will, as with most other crimes, lead to time behind bars. The Obama administration jailed illegal immigrants and the Biden administration does so. It’s a slap in the face to suggest to survivors of the Shoah that they were merely the equivalent of illegal immigrants being subjected to American criminal justice protocols, with all of its protections for accused persons, rather than targeted for extermination in a lawless genocide.

What Gina Carano said was stupid, but a lot less stupid than what Pedro Pascal said.

I was going to mention that as well as it’s pointed out in more than a few articles on Carano. We’re never going to bring this country closer together by being one sided. We also need to wean people off social media and back to writing with quill and ink, I’ve decided. It’s easier to apologize to one person than it is the world when you write dumb shit.

...and we all write dumb shit at some point.

Anonymous Bosch wrote: ↑Thu Feb 11, 2021 9:50 pm

Max Peck wrote: ↑Thu Feb 11, 2021 8:35 pm You could probably frame a claim that Trumpists are being treated like the Jews were in the lead-up to the Holocaust as being somewhat antisemitic on the grounds that it trivializes the Holocaust, as well as the fact that it plays to the white nationalist "White Genocide" myth.

Yes, but if trivializing the Holocaust is supposed to be strictly verboten, then as Kyle Smith wryly observed in the New York Post, should Pedro Pascal, the lead actor, on "The Mandalorian" also be shitcanned for his tweet in 2018?

@PedroPascal1 wrote:

Kyle Smith wrote:Trivializing the Holocaust is fine as long as you’re doing so in the course of attacking anybody on the right, and we know this because the lead actor on “The Mandalorian” did so. In June 2018, Pedro Pascal sent out a tweet suggesting two things were alike: One image, captioned “Germany, 1944,” depicted Jews behind barbed wire. The second, captioned “America, 2018,” was meant to suggest young accused illegal immigrants behind bars in America. (Actually, it was a 2010 picture of Palestinian kids awaiting meals at a soup kitchen.)

Even if Pascal had used an actual picture of American 2018 detention facilities to make his point, these two situations are … not remotely alike. Breaking immigration laws will, as with most other crimes, lead to time behind bars. The Obama administration jailed illegal immigrants and the Biden administration does so. It’s a slap in the face to suggest to survivors of the Shoah that they were merely the equivalent of illegal immigrants being subjected to American criminal justice protocols, with all of its protections for accused persons, rather than targeted for extermination in a lawless genocide.

What Gina Carano said was stupid, but a lot less stupid than what Pedro Pascal said.

Wait...you actually buy this simplistic comparison and the author's belief that this only happens against the 'right'? It was dumb misattribution for sure but at least there were actually kids in cages.

malchior wrote: ↑Thu Feb 11, 2021 10:14 pm

Anonymous Bosch wrote: ↑Thu Feb 11, 2021 9:50 pm

Max Peck wrote: ↑Thu Feb 11, 2021 8:35 pm You could probably frame a claim that Trumpists are being treated like the Jews were in the lead-up to the Holocaust as being somewhat antisemitic on the grounds that it trivializes the Holocaust, as well as the fact that it plays to the white nationalist "White Genocide" myth.

Yes, but if trivializing the Holocaust is supposed to be strictly verboten, then as Kyle Smith wryly observed in the New York Post, should Pedro Pascal, the lead actor, on "The Mandalorian" also be shitcanned for his tweet in 2018?

@PedroPascal1 wrote:

Kyle Smith wrote:Trivializing the Holocaust is fine as long as you’re doing so in the course of attacking anybody on the right, and we know this because the lead actor on “The Mandalorian” did so. In June 2018, Pedro Pascal sent out a tweet suggesting two things were alike: One image, captioned “Germany, 1944,” depicted Jews behind barbed wire. The second, captioned “America, 2018,” was meant to suggest young accused illegal immigrants behind bars in America. (Actually, it was a 2010 picture of Palestinian kids awaiting meals at a soup kitchen.)

Even if Pascal had used an actual picture of American 2018 detention facilities to make his point, these two situations are … not remotely alike. Breaking immigration laws will, as with most other crimes, lead to time behind bars. The Obama administration jailed illegal immigrants and the Biden administration does so. It’s a slap in the face to suggest to survivors of the Shoah that they were merely the equivalent of illegal immigrants being subjected to American criminal justice protocols, with all of its protections for accused persons, rather than targeted for extermination in a lawless genocide.

What Gina Carano said was stupid, but a lot less stupid than what Pedro Pascal said.

Wait...you actually buy this simplistic comparison and the author's belief that this only happens against the 'right'?

No, I know how to use words. If that were what I meant, then I would've said as much without requiring your (mis)interpretation.

Anonymous Bosch wrote: ↑Thu Feb 11, 2021 10:17 pmNo, I know how to use words. If that were what I meant, then I would've said as much without requiring your (mis)interpretation.

Ok then what did you actually mean? It sure reads like you approve of the argument.

Edit: And to be clear, maybe it is just my metric but when I make a point I generally try to support the idea with something I implicitly think is accurate or am in agreement with. If I disagree with a portion, I try to call out the thing I don't entirely agree with.

I think it's a matter of degrees. Immigration detention facilities may not be the same thing as WW2 concentration camps. But they're still arguably concentration camps. People can debate over the terminology if they want. But I think the most important message is what today's detention facilities could lead to. I'm not expecting them to evolve into a direct immigrant holocaust, no. But was anyone expecting the Holocaust to happen, either? Regardless, it's a startling and thought provoking comparison. It may not be a particularly nuanced (or accurate) post, but the suggestion that only 1:1 direct comparisons are allowed is ridiculous. But if someone wants to get offended and state their case, well, that's their right too. And I don't know if the actual Palestinian kids in the photo are being oppressed in that particular circumstance (sure looks like it though), but it could be argued there's merit in making a similar comparison with those subjects, also.

In terms of matters of degrees... comparing Holocaust victims to "oppressed" Republicans is a lot more degrees lol.

Should Carano have lost her job and potentially her career over it? I don't know. I just don't know. Calling out bad and misguided behaviour is important. Disney is Disney is a corporation and will do what it does. But these are strange times and I don't know the answer. It's sad to think people are thrown away without the chance to change, but this obviously wasn't her first incident. Either she's dense or she just doesn't care. FWIW I liked the character. She wasn't an amazing actor, no, but there's a long tradition of athletes and stunt performers who are enjoyable to watch despite their actual acting ability being secondary.

Sudy wrote: ↑Thu Feb 11, 2021 10:39 pmShould Carano have lost her job and potentially her career over it? I don't know. I just don't know. Calling out bad and misguided behaviour is important. Disney is Disney is a corporation and will do what it does. But these are strange times and I don't know the answer. It's sad to think people are thrown away without the chance to change, but this obviously wasn't her first incident. Either she's dense or she just doesn't care. FWIW I liked the character. She wasn't an amazing actor, no, but there's a long tradition of athletes and stunt performers who are enjoyable to watch despite their actual acting ability being secondary.

Yup - I agree. FWIW people were calling for her head earlier last year for some lunk-head type comments. As others mentioned she persisted. She was lined up to have her own show. She persisted. The show was pulled but her character's fate was left open ended. She persisted. Disney threw in the towel on her after several chances. At some point you have to read the room when your job is selling yourself to the public.

malchior wrote: ↑Thu Feb 11, 2021 10:20 pm

Anonymous Bosch wrote: ↑Thu Feb 11, 2021 10:17 pmNo, I know how to use words. If that were what I meant, then I would've said as much without requiring your (mis)interpretation.

Ok then what did you actually mean? It sure reads like you approve of the argument.

Exactly what I said. As the section of the op-ed I quoted observes, social media trivialization of the Holocaust is hardly a rarity and if it were strictly verboten Pedro Pascal would've also been shitcanned. And let me be clear: I do NOT think he or his co-star ought to lose their livelihoods for posting something stupid and inaccurate on social media. As far as I'm concerned, the remedy for bad speech is more speech, or better speech.

Anonymous Bosch wrote: ↑Thu Feb 11, 2021 11:00 pm

malchior wrote: ↑Thu Feb 11, 2021 10:20 pm

Anonymous Bosch wrote: ↑Thu Feb 11, 2021 10:17 pmNo, I know how to use words. If that were what I meant, then I would've said as much without requiring your (mis)interpretation.

Ok then what did you actually mean? It sure reads like you approve of the argument.

Exactly what I said. As the section of the op-ed I quoted observes, social media trivialization of the Holocaust is hardly a rarity and if it were strictly verboten Pedro Pascal would've also been shitcanned. And let me be clear: I do NOT think he or his co-star ought to lose their livelihoods for posting something stupid and inaccurate on social media. As far as I'm concerned, the remedy for bad speech is more speech, or better speech.

Thanks for clarifying but the above isn't exactly as you said. Anyway, wouldn't you agree that Disney deciding not to employ her is indeed *speech*. They have responded to the controversy by saying she isn't employed by them. They are clearly sending a message. Is it better? Anyone is free to speak their piece about it including condemning their decision to cut her off from employment.

However, back to the NY Post piece that you posted. It opened with this, "Trivializing the Holocaust is fine as long as you’re doing so in the course of attacking anybody on the right". That is simply not true. In fact, the position that the author of the piece seems to be taking is not balanced in any way. The idea that Pedro is 'trivializing the holocaust' is a bit of an extreme interpretation. In any case, where is the pattern here? It is hardly the same as repeated conduct that her to be employer warned her against.

malchior wrote: ↑Thu Feb 11, 2021 11:37 pm Thanks for clarifying but the above isn't exactly as you said. Anyway, wouldn't you agree that Disney deciding not to employ her is indeed *speech*. They have responded to the controversy by saying she isn't employed by them. They are clearly sending a message. Is it better? Anyone is free to speak their piece about it including condemning their decision to cut her off from employment.

Of course, it goes without saying that Disney had every right to terminate her employment and I haven't suggested otherwise.

malchior wrote: ↑Thu Feb 11, 2021 11:37 pmHowever, back to the NY Post piece that you posted. It opened with this, "Trivializing the Holocaust is fine as long as you’re doing so in the course of attacking anybody on the right". That is simply not true. In fact, the position that the author of the piece seems to be taking is not balanced in any way. The idea that Pedro is 'trivializing the holocaust' is a bit of an extreme interpretation.

Yes, are you somehow unfamiliar with the tabloid journalism style of the New York Post? Because incendiary hyperbole is their bread and butter, and they've never pretended to be "balanced in any way" for about as long as I can recall. But I believe the author of the op-ed raised a fair point in calling out Pedro Pascal's own foolish trivialization of the Holocaust, which was why I quoted it. And as hepcat correctly observed above, he was far from the only person to make that comparison.

Anonymous Bosch wrote: ↑Fri Feb 12, 2021 12:10 am

malchior wrote: ↑Thu Feb 11, 2021 11:37 pm Thanks for clarifying but the above isn't exactly as you said. Anyway, wouldn't you agree that Disney deciding not to employ her is indeed *speech*. They have responded to the controversy by saying she isn't employed by them. They are clearly sending a message. Is it better? Anyone is free to speak their piece about it including condemning their decision to cut her off from employment.

Of course, it goes without saying that Disney had every right to terminate her employment and I haven't suggested otherwise.

Great. We agree on this. More on the inconsistency I see below.

malchior wrote: ↑Thu Feb 11, 2021 11:37 pmHowever, back to the NY Post piece that you posted. It opened with this, "Trivializing the Holocaust is fine as long as you’re doing so in the course of attacking anybody on the right". That is simply not true. In fact, the position that the author of the piece seems to be taking is not balanced in any way. The idea that Pedro is 'trivializing the holocaust' is a bit of an extreme interpretation.

Yes, are you somehow unfamiliar with the tabloid journalism style of the New York Post? Because incendiary hyperbole is their bread and butter, and they've never pretended to be "balanced in any way" for about as long as I can recall. But I believe the author of the op-ed raised a fair point in calling out Pedro Pascal's own foolish trivialization of the Holocaust, which was why I quoted it. And as hepcat correctly observed above, he was far from the only person to make that observation.

Great we agree it is not necessarily a balanced opinion from a top notch paper. And for the reasons I said before this opinion is not very well supported. I don't care if everyone makes this observation. It is still fairly weak. If someone was to show a pattern where Pedro repeatedly made borderline statements, was not warned about it, and suffered no consequences then we have something to talk about.

malchior wrote: ↑Fri Feb 12, 2021 1:16 am Great we agree it is not necessarily a balanced opinion from a top notch paper. And for the reasons I said before this opinion is not very well supported. I don't care if everyone makes this observation. It is still fairly weak.

No, in terms of trivializing the Holocaust, it's really not at all. Within that particular context (which was what I was specifically responding to), the stupidity and inaccuracy of what Pedro Pascal posted in 2018 is a perfectly apt and valid comparison. Because realistically, clumsy and inaccurate Nazi and Hitler analogies posted on the Internet is such an absurdly common rhetorical tactic that we specifically have a thirty-year-old adage for it. And if that's now being equated that to outright anti-Semitism, then almost everyone who's ever posted anything on the Internet is likely guilty of it at some point, and it ceases to have any coherent meaning whatsoever.

Anonymous Bosch wrote: ↑Fri Feb 12, 2021 1:55 am

malchior wrote: ↑Fri Feb 12, 2021 1:16 am Great we agree it is not necessarily a balanced opinion from a top notch paper. And for the reasons I said before this opinion is not very well supported. I don't care if everyone makes this observation. It is still fairly weak.

No, in terms of trivializing the Holocaust, it's really not at all. Within that particular context (which was what I was specifically responding to), the stupidity and inaccuracy of what Pedro Pascal posted in 2018 is a perfectly apt and valid comparison. Because realistically, clumsy and inaccurate Nazi and Hitler analogies posted on the Internet is such an absurdly common rhetorical tactic that we specifically have a thirty-year-old adage for it. And if that's now being equated that to outright anti-Semitism, then almost everyone who's ever posted anything on the Internet is likely guilty of it at some point, and it ceases to have any coherent meaning whatsoever.

We obviously disagree on the import of that or that it is an apt comparison. Still you are continuing to ignore that it wasn't the one *post* alone was what caused Disney to sever their relationship. But then again I'm not sure this is a real discussion. I make a point and you selectively ignore the main point to dig at side things as a vehicle to make what appear to be condescending side notes. I've chosen to ignore it several times but enough is enough. Well that is *unless* I'm (mis)interpreting you again.

El Guapo wrote: ↑Thu Feb 11, 2021 2:03 pm

YellowKing wrote: ↑Thu Feb 11, 2021 1:52 pm I don't know that there was any other thing anti-Semitic other than her most recent post. But people have been fired for a single tweet before, so shrug. It doesn't take much when you're that high profile.

Partly I'm just curious about whether others view that as anti-Semitic. I know our local ADL recently talked to a gun store in the area and got them to take down a pro-gun control quote from Hitler. I didn't find that to be particularly anti-Semitic either (since it's premised on Hitler = bad), but obviously at least some other people do, so just kind of curious what the general consensus on that kind of thing is.

I don't at least. It was more IMO right-wing victimization hyperbole. I think there is a bit of a bias when someone seemingly right-wing says certain things. There is a tendency to be 'over-sensitive' and add in 'racist' when that is too much of a leap and misses that it is simply another ignorant trope at play.

malchior wrote: ↑Fri Feb 12, 2021 2:09 am We obviously disagree on the import of that or that it is an apt comparison.

Indeed we do.

malchior wrote: ↑Fri Feb 12, 2021 2:09 amStill you are continuing to ignore that it wasn't the one *post* alone was what caused Disney to sever their relationship.

I am not ignoring anything. You're removing the context of what I was originally responding to and discussing -- i.e. trivialization of the Holocaust -- and are attempting to refute an assertion I never made. You seem to favour fallacious straw man misrepresentations, because I never suggested that "one *post* alone was what caused Disney to sever their relationship" with Carano; if I did, by all means quote me.

malchior wrote: ↑Fri Feb 12, 2021 2:09 amBut then again I'm not sure this is a real discussion. I make a point

You and me both, because the point you're trying to make here is based upon a fallacious misrepresentation of what I've posted in this thread.

malchior wrote: ↑Fri Feb 12, 2021 2:09 amI've chosen to ignore it several times but enough is enough. Well that is *unless* I'm (mis)interpreting you again.

You are, and it's the second time you've attempted to do so. So I would respectfully ask that you simply quote and respond to the words I've actually used here rather than continuing to attack out-of-context rhetorical straw men.

I'm going to suggest at this point that Holocaust trivialization and whether it impacts conservatives unfairly as compared to liberals is a better topic for R&P than a thread about The Madalorian, where I think most people would prefer to discuss Carano's poor acting and awkward action scenes than her politics. Might be better to start a new thread in R&P to discuss this topic and leave this one to focus more on the show.