Baldur's Gate 3

[Blackhawk]

I don't know what method they use (I'm guessing point buy), but tabletop D&D moved away from rolling stats years ago. It's still an option for those that prefer it, but character power (in a tabletop game where you can't just reroll until you have all 18s) should be a result of choices, not luck.

[disarm]

Probably gonna catch flak for this, but I miss being able to roll and reroll my stats until I have a strong character. I know they do it to keep things "fair and balanced", but if I'm willing to spend an hour hitting that reroll button, by God I should be able to waste my own damn time if I want to!

The amount of time spent rerolling a character at the beginning of Baldur's Gate was nothing compared to how long it took to get powerful rolls for all six characters in a party for Icewind Dale. I wish I had that kind of time to devote to gaming now...

[Jaymann]

BG3 is point buy which is disappointing because, among other things, there are stat checks for things outside of your primary class stats. Icewind Dale is one of my favorite games precisely because I could roll stats for all 6 characters. If at some point there is a stat rolling mod for BG3 I will be on it like Shakespeare on a sonnet.

[Madmarcus]

Ideally point buy makes the most sense but I don't think the 5e 27 point version really works. Stats are bland, there is little to no serious decision making during the point buy, and the fiction of balance is thrown out as soon as you go to picking race and class.

I'm lucky that JA3 is being a good distraction because the three classes I am most interested in; ranger, monk and bard, all have important things that we won't know until the full release.

[Blackhawk]

Ideally point buy makes the most sense but I don't think the 5e 27 point version really works. Stats are bland, there is little to no serious decision making during the point buy, and the fiction of balance is thrown out as soon as you go to picking race and class.

(Referencing the tabletop rules, as I don't have BG3 yet.)

They definitely start lower lower than earlier versions (and can't start any of them above 16 unless your race pushes them up above that), but as you level up you will get between 10 and 14 ability score increases. If they started high and dramatic, you'd end up overpowered.

I have lots of issues with 5e character creation/progression, but I actually like their approach to stats better than any of the previous versions.

[Max Peck]

[Madmarcus]

They definitely start lower lower than earlier versions (and can't start any of them above 16 unless your race pushes them up above that), but as you level up you will get between 10 and 14 ability score increases. If they started high and dramatic, you'd end up overpowered.

I have lots of issues with 5e character creation/progression, but I actually like their approach to stats better than any of the previous versions.

I like the start higher and gain fewer points (or even none) method of earlier edition instead of starting lower and being expected to use ASIs to max at least two stats. I like to think of characters as getting better through learning and becoming more skilled not by bulking up!

[Blackhawk]

I like that they can do both, gaining more skill, but also gaining more physical and mental capability (and Strength isn't just raw muscle - it's also the experience to know how to use it most effectively, where to apply leverage, etc, and similar things apply to the other stats.) But again, I feel that there are some huge issues with 5e's progression system (like all of the forks in your characters development - the most interesting choices - are chosen by level 3.)

Still, every approach is going to bother different people. Some would be more bothered by starting with high stats, but rarely, if ever, improving them.

[Zarathud]

Oh have you seen the multi class madness that you can accomplish by level 10? Mix 2 classes with a 1 level feat “dip” and you can get busted min/max combos.

[Jaymann]

Oh have you seen the multi class madness that you can accomplish by level 10? Mix 2 classes with a 1 level feat “dip” and you can get busted min/max combos.

Yeah, there is nothing to stop you from taking level 1 in all 12 classes if you are so inclined. I will just play what I like for the first couple weeks before I check out the maximum multi class builds.

[Jaymann]

BG3 has Gone Gold! I suppose some people somewhere may be buying discs, but mostly it just means the full release has been finalized. In an interview, Sven says the release time on Steam is aimed at 1 PM ET on August 3. There will be no DM mode. There will be no rolling for stats for chu. No DLC planned at this time, but after launch mods will be supported (hopefully stat rolling!). All characters and companions can be re-speced.

[YellowKing]

I'm going to buy it on PC since a buddy of mine wants to play co-op. I'm a little hesitant only because I don't know how well it's going to run on my aging PC, but I guess I'll give it a shot and get a refund if it's a no-go.

[GreenGoo]

There will be no rolling for stats for chu.

Wait, what?

Who is chu?

Also, stat rolling is not a thing?

[Jaymann]

There will be no rolling for stats for chu.

Wait, what?

Who is chu?

Also, stat rolling is not a thing?

Chu is the default name for non child bearing characters, kind of like Tav.

Apparently stat rolling has not been a thing since the late 90's. Who knew?

[GreenGoo]

Lol, that didn't help!

As far as stat rolling, there have always been multiple ways to create your stats. It's possible there is an "official" way, but it is always followed by 4 or 5 different "optional" ways. At this point I feel like it is whatever everyone decides (particularly the DM).

Like everyone else, I have a preferred method, but I'm not married to it. I'm guessing BG3 is buying stats, which just so happens to be my least favourite way.

[El Guapo]

Lol, that didn't help!

As far as stat rolling, there have always been multiple ways to create your stats. It's possible there is an "official" way, but it is always followed by 4 or 5 different "optional" ways. At this point I feel like it is whatever everyone decides (particularly the DM).

Like everyone else, I have a preferred method, but I'm not married to it. I'm guessing BG3 is buying stats, which just so happens to be my least favourite way.

What's your preferred method, out of curiosity?

I don't see the better alternative to buying stats. Other than the D&D nostalgia factor, I dislike rolling for stats - for a campaign that you may be playing for months or years, seems unfair to stick a couple players with mediocre or bad stats over that whole time because they were unlucky in a couple rolls at the inception of the campaign.

[Zarathud]

Buying stats preserved balance which is important for a PC game, where the DM can’t force a rule of reasonability.

[GreenGoo]

What's your preferred method, out of curiosity?

4d6, drop the lowest, no rerolls, ordered in any way you want.

That said, I started playing when 3d6 in order of stats was a thing, so I not completely repulsed by the idea of playing whatever character the dice decide. Of course this isn't as appropriate for a single player video game.

Part of me still feels like 4d6 drop lowest is "too powerful". Lol.

[GreenGoo]

Buying stats preserved balance which is important for a PC game, where the DM can’t force a rule of reasonability.

Balance is not important for single player video games. I realize BG3 can be played co-op.

[Isgrimnur]

4d8 drop the lowest.

[GreenGoo]

Other than the D&D nostalgia factor, I dislike rolling for stats - for a campaign that you may be playing for months or years, seems unfair to stick a couple players with mediocre or bad stats over that whole time because they were unlucky in a couple rolls at the inception of the campaign.

Originally D&D involved lots of dying. The characters that were lucky enough to live for months or years were rare and involved playing lots of dead characters first.

I also realize this is not how D&D is played today.

For a video game, I'd accept something like part random, part buying. So you randomly generate all or most of your points pool, then buy stats with that.

I just like random I guess. I suppose it could just be nostalgia.

[baelthazar]

Other than the D&D nostalgia factor, I dislike rolling for stats - for a campaign that you may be playing for months or years, seems unfair to stick a couple players with mediocre or bad stats over that whole time because they were unlucky in a couple rolls at the inception of the campaign.

Originally D&D involved lots of dying. The characters that were lucky enough to live for months or years were rare and involved playing lots of dead characters first.

A bit off topic, but several newer Old School Renaissance TTRPGs have brought this back. The most hilarious one is Dungeon Crawl Classics, which basically uses the Basic/Expert rules and a lot of random tables. In that game you have a 0-level character funnel, everyone starts by controlling 7-10 0-level characters in a stable and then throws them at the dungeon until one of them levels up. It isn't for everyone, but the people that love it LOVE it.

That also allows you to "kill off" poorly rolled characters.

[GreenGoo]

A bit off topic, but several newer Old School Renaissance TTRPGs have brought this back. The most hilarious one is Dungeon Crawl Classics, which basically uses the Basic/Expert rules and a lot of random tables. In that game you have a 0-level character funnel, everyone starts by controlling 7-10 0-level characters in a stable and then throws them at the dungeon until one of them levels up. It isn't for everyone, but the people that love it LOVE it.

That also allows you to "kill off" poorly rolled characters.

Yes, they are FANATICAL. It's a bit crazy. I don't have strong feelings one way or another, but many people do.

I was thinking about this earlier today, and this is what I came up with.

In original D&D, level 1 characters were normal people (with occasional exceptional stats, high or low) going out into the big bad world. You were small and the world was big. The world was going to eat you. Characters had to watch out for the world.

5e D&D, you are a super hero going out and dominating your surroundings. The world now has to watch out for you.

In my opinion, both play styles are valid and enjoyable. But some prefer one, and some prefer the other. Is one better than the other? Well, that's a matter of opinion, not a statement of fact, so of course you are going to have conflict.

Despite leaning (slightly) towards "old school", I find those people to be insufferable in their sanctimonious assertions about what is "right" and "wrong" with D&D. So they have pushed me away. There is a LOT to like about 5e, even if some of it rubs me the wrong way.

To illustrate that "normal person" aspect, one of the original AD&D books had a drawing of a group of characters. One of them was a magic-user with low intelligence. His wizard hat was more of a dunce cap, and he looked like a dumber Elmer Fudd. The point being, you played what you rolled and you had fun doing it, because you adjusted your role playing to what the dice gave you, as opposed to deciding ahead of time and then making a character to match that.

I get that most people are going to prefer to play what they have decided they want to play, rather than being told (by the DM with pre-generated, or the dice with rolls) what they are going to play. Still, there is a lot of fun to be had playing a non-trope character.

A bard with low charisma. A paladin who is dumb as a post, but damn sure he's right about everything. A sharp witted and charismatic rogue who steals through charm and fraud, rather than high wire traversing between castle towers. Etc etc.

There is a lot I miss about old D&D. Each gold piece is an experience point, for example. It made treasure something VERY exciting to find. Today, once you can cover your expenses, who cares about yet another chest full of gold? It's (practically) meaningless in a world where you are a super hero.

I *liked* all the numbers in old school D&D!

Anyway.

[GreenGoo]

This might be the illustration I'm remembering.

[Blackhawk]

Buying stats preserved balance which is important for a PC game, where the DM can’t force a rule of reasonability.

Balance is not important for single player video games.

It is if you don't want it held against you in all the reviews.

When it comes to tabletop, personally, I prefer point buy. I get the appeal of random (and I also remember 3d6 in order), but just like most of the industry, I'm over it. Even with the 4d6 method (which is what I used for a long, long time) I was a part of (or GM to) too many parties where several players had average rolls, one person rolled Batman with multiple 18s and nothing below 15, and someone else ended up with a smattering of below-average scores, an 11, and maybe a 13. 'Batman' got to have a blast at being the hero, the majority got to be annoyed as all of their glory was taken by 'Batman', and the last guy usually had a terrible time as all he could do was stand in the back while everyone else did the cool stuff.

Getting to have fun should never be dependent on luck.

[Blackhawk]

Also, I have a feeling that there will be a character/save editor very soon. One can always roll actual dice and change their characters scores to match.

/edit - The editor already exists.

[Smoove_B]

I don't want to derail the thread, but I watched a really interesting video about tabletop D&D and the theory that the release of Unearthed Arcana in the early 1980s for AD&D is what fundamentally changed the game and caused power / stat creep in player characters. Maybe I'll post it elsewhere but it made a ton of sense.

[Jaymann]

Also, I have a feeling that there will be a character/save editor very soon.

I don't like to just edit a character to all 18's. I prefer the uncertainty of RE-rolling in hopes of that elusive 90+ roll. For most builds high rolls in 4 stats are plenty.

[Madmarcus]

I don't want to derail the thread, but I watched a really interesting video about tabletop D&D and the theory that the release of Unearthed Arcana in the early 1980s for AD&D is what fundamentally changed the game and caused power / stat creep in player characters. Maybe I'll post it elsewhere but it made a ton of sense.

That feels about right at least for the time frame. My memory also says that the Oriental Adventures book acted just like splatbooks for 3e as people wanted to cherry pick stuff from it.

[Blackhawk]

Also, I have a feeling that there will be a character/save editor very soon.

I don't like to just edit a character to all 18's. I prefer the uncertainty of RE-rolling in hopes of that elusive 90+ roll. For most builds high rolls in 4 stats are plenty.

I wasn't suggesting that. I was suggesting that if someone really wants rolled stats and they aren't built in, they can go get some D6s and paper, roll and re-roll to their heart's content, then apply those stats to their character.

Although that was the thing I disliked about the earlier games - if I'm going to reroll a hundred times to get that 90+, wouldn't it just be better to give it to me right off of the bat, rather than making my brain go numb clicking 'roll' over and over and over (and then getting into such a trance from it that I see a 90+ and immediately click 'roll' again before I realize it.) Or do the 'power roll' thing and make it 1d6+12 (I mean, if that's what you're going to end up with anyway...)

I still imagine a player sitting at the game table rolling his character's stats for 25 minutes while the GM stares at the ceiling, oblivious.

[Jaymann]

Also, I have a feeling that there will be a character/save editor very soon.

I don't like to just edit a character to all 18's. I prefer the uncertainty of RE-rolling in hopes of that elusive 90+ roll. For most builds high rolls in 4 stats are plenty.

I wasn't suggesting that. I was suggesting that if someone really wants rolled stats and they aren't built in, they can go get some D6s and paper, roll and re-roll to their heart's content, then apply those stats to their character.

Lol, it took me about 7 seconds to find a D & D Dice Roller.

Edit: Woohoo already got a 97.

[Blackhawk]

Also, I have a feeling that there will be a character/save editor very soon.

I don't like to just edit a character to all 18's. I prefer the uncertainty of RE-rolling in hopes of that elusive 90+ roll. For most builds high rolls in 4 stats are plenty.

I wasn't suggesting that. I was suggesting that if someone really wants rolled stats and they aren't built in, they can go get some D6s and paper, roll and re-roll to their heart's content, then apply those stats to their character.

Lol, it took me about 7 seconds to find a D & D Dice Roller.

Edit: Woohoo already got a 97.

An option closer to the original experience, even using the '4d6, drop lowest' method.

[Blackhawk]

Even with the 4d6 method (which is what I used for a long, long time)

As I thought about it, I realized that I eventually switched to a hybrid system. It was the standard 4d6 drop lowest system, but with two exceptions:

1. If you didn't have any 17+ rolls, you could turn your highest roll into a 17.
2. If your lowest roll was 10+, it became a 9.

The first guaranteed at least one great stat. The second guaranteed that every character had at least one weakness.

[Zarathud]

I remember rolling groups of characters every month, but we had a keep and made the poor rolls the NPCs. Some became porters to bring the Monty Haul back home. Others became messengers. Not all of them made it back.

[Hyena]

I remember rolling groups of characters every month, but we had a keep and made the poor rolls the NPCs. Some became porters to bring the Monty Haul back home. Others became messengers. Not all of them made it back.

Pour one put for Bob the Porter.

[Blackhawk]

Or our beloved Percy from Conan Exiles:

[Hyena]

Or our beloved Percy from Conan Exiles:

He's just missing the coconuts.

[GreenGoo]

Keep in mind my that opinion is based on decades of previous rpg experiences.

5e has ASI, which to my archaic ass seems insane.

Why not start everyone at 10's across the board if you're going to give multiple free ability points every 4 levels or so? Eventually you're going to be superhuman no matter what your starting stats are.

In any case, array or buy typically result in very cookie cutter level 1 characters. What fight is going to intentionally avoid putting 15 into str, for example? That means every first level fighter is going to have a str score of 15 (before race bonuses. And all fighters of the same race will have identical str scores at first level).

I guess my real issue with these fair methods is the generic sameness they create. Which, I mean, if winning or sameness (called fairness by some) is the goal, then great. Everyone starts on the same foot, despite different classes having different power curves etc.

In the end as long as everyone agrees to the method, then it's a good method. I certainly don't begrudge other people using whatever method they like best, but it's simply not true that point-buy is the only method (or even strong majority) being used by 5e players.

I fully admit that random can create a wide range of ability sets, and some people are going to feel screwed, and others are going to roll once in a life time supermen. This is a genuine problem that I acknowledge. My solutions are typically ad-hoc at the time and place, depending on all sorts of things, such as what I had for breakfast that day and whether I like the player or not.

I admire attempt to create a perfectly balanced rpg, but given the nature of these games, that's mission impossible.

[Jaymann]

I saw a video stating that half-orcs half-elves will be removed from the D&D handbook in the next edition, ostensibly because some people find them vaguely offensive. Dude, this is a fantasy world. It appears BG3 may be the last sanctioned game to contain those races.

[GreenGoo]

I've always wondered about half-orcs from the very beginning (for me, about 11yo). And then half-ogres for awhile.

I mean, I can imagine a consensual relationship between elves and humans. It's difficult to imagine one between orcs and humans. Or worse, ogres and humans.

They are literally the result of raping and pillaging. but mostly the raping.

You can make your own homebrew as dark as you want, but D&D has never been about the grim dark. It's one thing to have implicit rape backstories in your homebrew, it's another to codify it in the core rules. And yes, you can create a non-rapey backstory for your half-orc. Now do it for the many, many other half-orcs in the D&D world(s).

In the end I don't care one way or another. I feel nothing for half-orcs. Half-elves on the other hand, are going to be missed.

It will be fun watching the flame wars about this though. Because oh lordy, it is going to be glorious.