Baldur's Gate 3

[Max Peck]

Just to pile on - I was talking to a friend today who is a diehard D&D fan. He was absolutely blown away by early access BG3. I haven't seen him this excited for a game in ages, and the dude knows his RPGs. He's played Solasta and all the DLC, all the Divinities, Pillars of Eternity, etc. He said this blows all of them out of the water.

I've intentionally been avoiding pretty much everything BG3 related, but he's got me super intrigued.

I will probably get this day one and I have avoided everything as well. I found that if I do early access it kills the game for me usually.

My understanding is that early access saves won't be usable with the full game when released. Is that right, and is that going to change at any point pre-official release? I'm definitely going to get the game, but I don't like replaying parts of games so I've been holding off on early access.

IIRC, Larian has said that EA saves are not supported in the release version of the game. However, if you purchase the game in Early Access, you will be "upgraded" at no additional cost to the Digital Deluxe Edition at launch, so there is still value to be had from purchasing it before the EA period ends.

Just to add confusion to the mix, the Digital Deluxe Edition includes a 72-hour(?) early access to Act I so while an earlier Early Access save won't be supported, a DDE early access save will.

[Jaymann]

Max is correct and I have always understood the no carry forward of EA saves to be the case. That also makes sense because there will be races, classes, spells, etc. in the final release that were not in EA. For me, knowing the ropes of Act 1 is an advantage and I will happily play it again with my final release team. Plus the 72 hour head start is sweet.

[coopasonic]

I know I will end up getting this eventually and likely never, ever finish it (I never finished D:OS2 despite 148 hours invested). I am tempted to buy it and I don't know why. I guess just the BG name and nostalgia.

[Skinypupy]

I am tempted to buy it and I don't know why. I guess just the BG name and nostalgia.

For me, it's because BG is the only official D&D video game that's worth a shit. Everything else released with the D&D name has been hot garbage, most recently the new "Dark Alliance" game which was wildly disappointing.

For an IP with so much rich backstory, characters, and lore, it's truly baffling how they can only manage to make about 1 decent video game per decade, if that.

(yes, I know Solasta and Pathfinder exist and are D&D...ish)

[Blackhawk]

You're not entirely wrong. Most released since the Rise of Windows have been bad, and the best have been mediocre at best. But I would add Icewind Dale to the list of exceptions (and I haven't played it, but others would probably add Planescape Torment.)

[Skinypupy]

You're not entirely wrong. Most released since the Rise of Windows have been bad, and the best have been mediocre at best. But I would add Icewind Dale to the list of exceptions (and I haven't played it, but others would probably add Planescape Torment.)

Yeah, I was mostly referring to the last couple decades.

There were a couple stretches where nearly every D&D game was excellent. The "Gold Box" era was before my PC gaming time, but I hear plenty of folks wax nostalgic about it. Almost all of the Infinity Engine games were stellar and still hold up to this day. Neverwinter Nights 1 & 2 were very good at the time. Hell, even the Baldur's Gate: Dark Alliance games were fun, if overly simple.

Problem is that Neverwinter Nights 2 - released back in 2006 - was the last of what I would consider to be the quality D&D games...and even that one is questionable. It's been an absolute barren wasteland for D&D games ever since with a few mediocre games (Sword Coast Legends was kinda fun if you squinted hard enough, and Neverwinter started as a decent MMO before it went entirely P2W), a few really bad games, and...that's about it.

[Jaymann]

Just to see if I was forgetting any I did a search for best D&D games to see if any good ones were overlooked. The only one of note I came up with was:

The Temple of Elemental Evil was ranked the 4th greatest Dungeons & Dragons adventure of all time by Dungeon magazine in 2004

.
I recently played an updated version of this and it holds up pretty well.

[Smoove_B]

Problem is that Neverwinter Nights 2 - released back in 2006 - was the last of what I would consider to be the quality D&D games...and even that one is questionable. It's been an absolute barren wasteland for D&D games ever since with a few mediocre games (Sword Coast Legends was kinda fun if you squinted hard enough, and Neverwinter started as a decent MMO before it went entirely P2W), a few really bad games, and...that's about it.

I think it's an open secret - the D&D system is *terrible* for computer games. Yes, there are some variations of D&D that arguably work better than others, but I'm firmly in the camp that believes the rules just don't work. And I say that as someone that loved Planescape Torment, Baldur's Gate 2, the Icewind Dale trilogy and the Temple of Elemental Evil (which oddly enough I think is the best iteration).

I think people like the idea of a D&D world/theme/setting, but the rules (imho) just don't work well (largely). That's why I was kinda hopeful with the other games that borrow/modify the D&D license, but they honestly never really grabbed me either.

The point here (I think) is that we're all old. Enjoy what you can, when you can.

EDIT: I am anxiously awaiting to see how this looks, but I'm not going to be an early adopter here. After actually playing the 5E rules in a (virtual) PnP campaign, I think I'm arguably less excited. However, if the rules don't really get in the way of the story/fun for the game, I'd consider that a win.

[Blackhawk]

You're not entirely wrong. Most released since the Rise of Windows have been bad, and the best have been mediocre at best. But I would add Icewind Dale to the list of exceptions (and I haven't played it, but others would probably add Planescape Torment.)

Neverwinter Nights 1 & 2 were very good at the time.

My personal opinion - Neverwinter Nights 1 launched as a buggy mess with a terrible campaign. It was eventually patched into a good game, but it was really a couple of the DLCs and the fan content that was really good. NWN2 I don't feel qualified to give much of an opinion on. I have bounced off of it at least three or four times over the years, and never made it further than Neverwinter. It just wasn't very compelling. It was actually NWN that I was referring to when I said, "and the best have been mediocre at best", which I now realize was terrible phrasing.

[Blackhawk]

I think it's an open secret - the D&D system is *terrible* for computer games. Yes, there are some variations of D&D that arguably work better than others, but I'm firmly in the camp that believes the rules just don't work.

I don't disagree there. (I'm ignoring games loosely based on the rules like BG:DA and Tales from Candlekeep.) The 1e/2e rules were a theater-of-the-mind action system with mechanics that were convoluted (although not complex.) It worked OK for a real-time game, as the tabletop version used turns for playability, but didn't really have mechanics that relied on them. 3e/3.5e (which is every original D&D game starting with Pool of Radiance, with only one exception) was a turn-based system that was designed to be all about careful positioning and coordination, with half of the rules and character abilities tied to that. It generally fell flat in real-time games, as it just wasn't designed to work that way. 4e only had one game (Daggerdale), and the less said about both the better.

So far, there hasn't been a single D&D game based on the 5e rules. There was Solasta, but that was OGL (ie - the free portions of the D&D rules), not a &D game. My thoughts are that it would work better than 3.x/4e for real time (it depends less on precise positioning and is innately more flexible), and has the potential to work well in turn based. Some of the biggest flaws in 5e (the Inspiration system and the character progression) wouldn't be nearly so obnoxious (the prior because a quick google tells me that they reworked it into something more versatile and less powerful, the latter because you probably aren't spending a year inhabiting your character as an alter-ego.)

Side note: Pathfinder Kingmaker and Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous were both based on the Pathfinder 1e rules, which were a third-party variant of the 3.5e D&D rules and were great games (and both offered a turn-based option.)

Pathfinder 2e, if they ever make a game out of it, has very, very little of the original D&D rules, and is probably the best rule set (on the tabletop) of any other iteration.

[Skinypupy]

I think it's an open secret - the D&D system is *terrible* for computer games. Yes, there are some variations of D&D that arguably work better than others, but I'm firmly in the camp that believes the rules just don't work. And I say that as someone that loved Planescape Torment, Baldur's Gate 2, the Icewind Dale trilogy and the Temple of Elemental Evil (which oddly enough I think is the best iteration).

I think that depends largely on what you want in a D&D game.

Personally, I just want a compelling story in the established fantasy world that is fun to play. Give me a game like Dragon Age or The Witcher set in the Forgotten Realms or Krynn and I'd be absolutely thrilled. I could not possible care less whether they exactly replicate every nuance of the entire spellbook or take some creative liberties with how skills work. Just give me a story and world to care about and make it fun.

I do seem to be in the minority though, as it appears that most people are looking more for a precise tactical battle simulator. There's a good chance I'll bounce off BG3 if that's the primary focus (I found both Solasta and Pathfinder fiddly to the point of annoying), but will reserve judgement until I get a chance to play.

[Blackhawk]

I could not possible care less whether they exactly replicate every nuance of the entire spellbook or take some creative liberties with how skills work.

[snip

I do seem to be in the minority though, as it appears that most people are looking more for a precise tactical battle simulator.

I think it's more that fans of the tabletop game want a faithful recreation of that experience, sans group and table (and most of those rules systems are decidedly not simulators - D&D is comic book/action hero combat.) When you've spent years with a system of rules, and have, through the course of play, become very, very familiar with them, something completely changing them tends to be frustrating. Tweaks, sure (as I said, BG3 seems to be changing the Inspiration rule, and most D&D games adjust the feats and skills to make more sense without a DM to adjudicate, etc.), but not wholesale changes.

Not that I would hate other types of games set in D&D worlds.

[Max Peck]

The final Panel From Hell before launch. Allegedly banned on TikTok due to the gay bear sex cinematic...

[Jaymann]

I watched the whole thing except I cut it short after they get into spoilers towards the end (with warnings given). Re-specs will be available so you don't have to restart if you are unhappy with your build. They did not indicate if there will be a cost for that. Split screen co-op is built in, as well as online (and lan) co-op. No mention was made of being able to make an all custom party, but I have already used the lan co-op mode as a work around. At this point I am leaning towards 3 custom characters so I can invite a fourth companion and swap them out when I choose. You cannot swap out your custom characters.

Here is an excellent recap of the Panel:

[El Guapo]

So as far as I can tell, I *can't* buy the digital deluxe edition for PC at this point (doesn't seem to be for sale) but I can buy the early access edition, and if I do I'll be upgraded to the digital deluxe edition on launch day. But since part of the Digital Deluxe is three days early access, since that wouldn't happen until launch, I would miss out on the three days thing, right?

[Max Peck]

I'm not sure how that works. They could switch the storefront offering from EA to a pre-order of the release version any time up until the game releases, but they haven't said anything about doing that and I'd expect them to give a head's up if they planned to do so. FOMO is a powerful marketing tool.

My assumption is that they will patch the EA version to the release version 72 hours prior the release date, but I don't know that they've actually said they are doing that. Otherwise, the 72-hour early start on PC would not be a thing after all. If this is the case, I'd guess that the EA ends when they release that patch and there'd be a 3-day window to pre-order the game rather than buy the EA version.

[Jaymann]

My understanding is the EA backers will be automatically upgraded to the digital deluxe. I'm pretty sure they will get the 72 hour head start. Regardless, it's better than waiting until 8/31.

Edit: Reddit seems to confirm what I said. It appears the 72 hour head start only includes Act1. Then the other acts will open up on 8/3. I'm surprised this is not spelled out on Larian's web page. Piss poor marketing.

[Max Peck]

Larian did disclose that the Digital Deluxe Edition includes 72-hour access to Act 1 when they announced that EA purchases would be upgraded to the DDE, back in March. The only place where you can actually order it for now is on the PS5 store, and that also says the EA is for Act 1.

It's just that I haven't seen anything from them that clearly explains how they plan to transition from Early Access Classic to Early Access Launch.

[malchior]

Maybe I'm not getting it but don't EA people have Act 1 access...now? Are we going to see significant differences?

[Jaymann]

Maybe I'm not getting it but don't EA people have Act 1 access...now? Are we going to see significant differences?

Yes, EA currently has access to Act 1, but those saves won't carry forward at launch. Hopefully no significant changes, but additional content is OK too. The difference is your EA saves in Act 1 from the 72 hour advance access will carry over into full launch.

[Skinypupy]

I’m still trying to decide on PC or PS5. Leaning towards console, as Larian’s PS4 port of D:OS2 was nearly flawless and I much prefer the big screen.

Waiting an extra month is a bummer, but not a deal-breaker.

[Madmarcus]

I'm getting the impression that there might be some significant changes in existing content in Act 1. Or at least there seems to be a feeling that the current EA Act 1 gives too much experience and too many magic items which might have been for testing purposes. Or maybe the game is going to be overflowing with magic items and XP.

[Jaymann]

I'm getting the impression that there might be some significant changes in existing content in Act 1. Or at least there seems to be a feeling that the current EA Act 1 gives too much experience and too many magic items which might have been for testing purposes. Or maybe the game is going to be overflowing with magic items and XP.

I hope those magic items stay in Act 1 since I know all their locations and can go right to them. My experience with other Larian games is you find many great items in the first act, but they get eclipsed by what you find later.

[Madmarcus]

That's probably true. Too many people are going to be vocally annoyed if they rush to find a specific thing and it is moved.

[Jaymann]

Update #21 (probably the final one) is now up on Steam Community. Not a whole lot new except BUMMER:

A purchase of Early Access is essentially a pre-order, and will still grant you access to the Digital Deluxe content for Baldur's Gate 3 on PC, granting you access to: an exclusive in-game dice skin, the Divinity Bard Song Pack, Treasures of Rivellon Pack, Adventurer’s Pouch, Digital OST, Digital Artbook, and Digital Character Sheets for D&D IRL.

The PC Digital Deluxe Edition does not include a 72 hour head start, which would have essentially made the game’s release date July 31st. Shifting the release date – and thus communication around the Digital Deluxe Editions across PS5 and PC – came with a few complexities that we didn’t manage to communicate very well, so we thought it best to clarify it here, given that a 72 hour head start on PC wouldn't have been plausible.

[Max Peck]

I'm glad that they clarified it. Given that they've moved the release date up by about month since they originally promoted the 72-hour Act 1 early access, I'm inclined to give them a pass.

[El Guapo]

I'm glad that they clarified it. Given that they've moved the release date up by about month since they originally promoted the 72-hour Act 1 early access, I'm inclined to give them a pass.

Being reasonable, understanding, and patient?? God, you are terrible at being on the internet.

[Zarathud]

Max desperately wants the sweet RPG promised by Baldur’s Gate 3. I admit to being impressed by what I’ve seen and tempted to reroll anyway now I’ve seen some of the items.

Spoiler:

The intelligent Ogre’s dialogue was excellent, and finding his journal and crown of 17 INT was simply perfect…punishment for not treating INT as my character’s dump stat.

[Max Peck]

The thing is, Larian just told us that we get 3 more days before we have to make the hard choice between Jagged Alliance 3 and Baldur's Gate 3.

[Carpet_pissr]

“Head start”?! Is it a race?! Wtf.

[Jaymann]

“Head start”?! Is it a race?! Wtf.

Some people will treat it that way. But that's OK by me as I can search their results for all the best items as I leisurely examine every square inch.

[Jaymann]

As I suspected, items will ramp up when you get to Act 2, and there are 9 Legendary Items. Some are race specific, and one of them is:

Spoiler:

Dark Urge only. I had not planed on playing a DU in my first playthrough, now I will have to re-think that.

I kind of like this as opposed to Diablo where you wait for a RNG that never comes. Soon enough all the locations will be posted online and you will just need to get there.

[Carpet_pissr]

“Head start”?! Is it a race?! Wtf.

Some people will treat it that way. But that's OK by me as I can search their results for all the best items as I leisurely examine every square inch.

Because of my heavy-handed perma-snark, that probably came across wrong.

Is there actually some kind of MMO or MP/community element bullshit that they’ve added where you are in the same instance as other players and are competing for items? Please God say no.

[Jaymann]

“Head start”?! Is it a race?! Wtf.

Some people will treat it that way. But that's OK by me as I can search their results for all the best items as I leisurely examine every square inch.

Because of my heavy-handed and perma-snark, that probably came across wrong.

Is there actually some kind of MMO or MP/community element bullshit that they’ve added where you are in the same instance as other players and are competing for items? Please God say no.

No. However if you choose to play multiplayer with A-holes theoretically there could be ninja looters.

[Carpet_pissr]

Ah, ok, that makes sense. Thanks for clarifying. And ‘whew!’

[Max Peck]

My vague impression is that in MP someone controls a character in the host's party rather than bringing their own character into the game, in which case ninja looting won't be a thing since any items the guest's inventory will still be with the party when the guest leaves. I suppose it might be possible for them to destroy an item -- In which case, why are you playing with such a dick? -- but that can be resolved by reloading from a pre-dick-move save.

I may be mistaken about how the MP works, though. I'll be playing solo, as God intended single-player games to be enjoyed, so I've never really looked into it in detail.

[Jaymann]

My vague impression is that in MP someone controls a character in the host's party rather than bringing their own character into the game, in which case ninja looting won't be a thing since any items the guest's inventory will still be with the party when the guest leaves. I suppose it might be possible for them to destroy an item -- In which case, why are you playing with such a dick? -- but that can be resolved by reloading from a pre-dick-move save.

I may be mistaken about how the MP works, though. I'll be playing solo, as God intended single-player games to be enjoyed, so I've never really looked into it in detail.

My understanding (from playing Lan MP, not public) is everyone can create their own character, but if they all leave the host controls the whole party. Larian said if you're running a public MP game people can hop in and control a character, but the host can lock their own inventory. But as you say there is still an opportunity for tom dickery which would require you to load an earlier save. Though much of that could be solved if destroying items requires permission from the host.

My approach would be a password protected session in which you only invite friends. In fact once everything is up and running we should consider an OO playthrough (separate thread).

[Blackhawk]

Not to mean that you can't run a non-MP game.

[AWS260]

I finally picked this up and spent a few hours fiddling around with a ranger and a bard. I don't want to spoil too much for myself, so I avoided taking on companions -- killed a few of 'em, in fact! -- and tried to make the most evil possible decisions, since I probably won't do that in my real playthrough. It's been fun so far, but I think it's time to set BG3 aside until launch, so that I can encounter most things for the first time.

[Hyena]

Probably gonna catch flak for this, but I miss being able to roll and reroll my stats until I have a strong character. I know they do it to keep things "fair and balanced", but if I'm willing to spend an hour hitting that reroll button, by God I should be able to waste my own damn time if I want to!