Octopus Overlords

I hope it never comes down to drawing lines. I like not having a CoC. People like boundaries precisely so they can test them and taunt as they walk them. I prefer respect.

It's none of my damned business but it's my feeling that hepcat's posts suggested he was losing the ability to give that respect and he knew it, so he checked himself out, maybe temporarily or maybe permanent. If he was on the verge of becoming angry and ruining his enjoyment and the enjoyment of others, it was probably a good call, even if it's a shame.

RM9 is suggesting that if he feels like OO becomes a place for porn, he'll lose that respect.

I don't have answers, as I don't think OO has become or is becoming a porno haven or anything and I've learned to ignore (sometimes with a *plonk*) posters and threads that I feel don't give others any sort of respect but it makes perfect sense to me that I'd check out if OO felt like is was a place I didn't want to be and for me the feeling to stay or go comes organically, not by rules. Personally, I'm a fan of the absent benevolent dictator with the arbitrary good will enforcement squad, but that's me.

In the organic nature of the site, I'm pretty happy with where things are at. I got my games talk which is still what it's all about for me, even if I don't play so much any more, I got my R&P talk to get steamed about, and I got my every thing else talk where I check in and out which rarely offends me. From there, I could talk about things that annoy me or things I like changed but until it gets to where I am uncomfortable with the direction, I see no need to piss anyone else's cheerios.

...

On that note,

I will say one thing that is beginning to creep me out (though I still wouldn't ban it) and has moved me away from entering the NSFW threads and it's probably because I'm getting a bit long in tooth. The NSFW thread trend has focused on a level of youth I personally am not so comfortable with. I'm creepy old guy enough on my own. Heck, if I had the time and energy and ability to recover, I'd still go to strip clubs on a regular basis, but "Hey look, pictures of 19 year old girls fresh out of high school taken solely to arouse my 40 something self" is skeevy to me and in my own way, I'd be like RM9, I'd have to assume either a loss of respect for the place or have to consider I am not part of the demographic anymore if that trend organically grew.

...

Finally, I feel really bad for you, MHS. Quoting you wasn't necessary for Hep's release. He's a great, if not charming guy and I bet dollars to doughnuts if he could take back looking like he was specifically calling you out, he would.

...

That's all I have to say about that.

...

No. Wait. You will take hotlinking away from me when you pry it from my arthritic lazy fingers.

...

That's all I have to say about that.

RunningMn9 wrote:

GreenGoo wrote:You're probably right. I've been assuming you were asking someone to justify the NSFW thread's existence.

I've been hoping that Daehawk was going to be honest enough to answer my question. I suspect his answer is "because porn/chicks", and I suspect that he doesn't actually want to say that out loud.

Oh, if that's all you were looking for, I'll say it. Because chicks. I'll leave what constitutes porn to the individual viewer.

"Because chicks" is the reason behind most of what we do. It's part of our DNA.

But I'd still rather we go back to Chaosraven's reasoning when asked "why?", which was "why not?".

"Because chicks" is not an automatic disqualifier in my opinion. It may of course be for others.

LordMortis wrote:RM9 is suggesting that if he feels like OO becomes a place for porn, he'll lose that respect.

For the record, me too.

LordMortis wrote:No. Wait. You will take hotlinking away from me when you pry it from my arthritic lazy fingers.

...and yet, if you were suddenly unable to fusker 37 NSFW pictures at a time into a thread with a simple series of CTRL+C and V keystrokes, maybe you'd think twice about doing it? I dunno.

RunningMn9 wrote: Smoove - unfortunately for me, the decision of our filter isn't based on the content of the site at the moment. So cleaning up the site or changing the labeling won't help me. Once the DoD determined that OO was inappropriate, the entire domain is blocked in perpetuity.

This is the entire argument for me. We have two methods of connection from my work. One of them is the office network. Octopus Overlords became blocked from that about a year ago. Apparently the Websense company we use figured out it was a site about gaming.

The second method is the Employee Wireless network. This network isn't as strict about filtering when it comes to games. The only reason they have Websense blocking the gaming category is due to cookies and other stuff that are more common on gaming sites.

The SECOND this site gets flagged for inappropriate material? Blocked across the board. So while a risque photo here and there that doesn't show full nudity is probably going to be ok -- if we cross over to full frontals, sex acts, or even nip pics...... we are getting dangerously close to the moment when this site gets flagged as adult content.

As I said earlier, if OO loses it's day time audience, it's over.

GreenGoo wrote:

Holman wrote:It seems like a common-sense expectation is already in place:

1) sexy beauty is fine and gets labeled NSFW as necessary;
2) porn for porn's sake is not fine and causes us to have the kind of navel-gazing/get-outta-my-navel session we're having now.

I know it "seems" like common sense, but the very idea that it should be intuitively obvious but isn't is exactly why this entire incident occured. Where does the line get drawn? It's the "I can't define porn but I know it when I see it" problem. Since your country's legal system has struggled with this question for years, I'm not surprised we aren't all unified in agreement either. You might have a very clear idea of where to draw the line, but that is not necessarily where Rmn9, me, Chaosraven or in this case specifically daehawk would draw the line. And almost certainly not where hepcat drew his line (and then seemed to implode when support wasn't unanimous).

I think we've had a tacit consensus here for a long time:

1) lingerie is always OK,
2) coyly hinted nudity (up to and including nipslip) is always OK,
3) undisguised direct nudity is usually too much,
4) depiction or all-but-depiction of sex acts is definitely over the line.

This is probably what some kind of analysis of OO NSFW posting practices would show us. Occurrences of (3) have sometimes gone unremarked, but a repeated pattern invites pushback. Occurrences of (4) have almost never been acceptable, and never for their own sake.

If there's a single guiding principle in this, it's that (at OO) beauty is awesome but outright prurience is shady.

It's true that different people draw the line differently, but we always made allowance for personality quirks. The grey area is where (2) blurs into (3). I doubt that there's any real confusion in this community about what constitutes (4).

Holman wrote:4) depiction or all-but-depiction of sex acts is definitely over the line.

All butt depiction?

As I ponder about how "I" feel about this entire topic it occurred to me that it would in fact be over the line most of us have drawn to post certain screenshots from games such as GTA and Saints Row.

Don't know if that good or bad, just interesting.

Smoove_B wrote: What I don't know (and no I didn't read the paper linked above) is whether or not the monitoring software has the equivalent of a "Google Image Search" where they can actual recognize porn-y images based on known offenders and/or color palettes or if they're smart enough to look for image labels like "IBEENSMOOVED.jpg" or "SMOOVENSAXY.jpg" that are linked through image hosting sites.

Okay, the tl;dr version: Yes, functionality to analyze the images themselves exists. It is, however, almost never used as it is slow, expensive, and brings up lots of false positives.

Links are checked against a list of known sites. Linking directly to Porn'R'Us.com is bad.

Keywords are checked. Your two examples up there, for instance, may have just added a point to OO's score.

That's why I suggested everyone stop hotlinking and start hosting photos somewhere with nonsense image names. It would help prevent the issue.

Ironically, the thing that has probably been the most damaging for the filters has been the discussion in this thread and the one in meta. We've been throwing out suspicious keywords like mad.

Blackhawk wrote:
Ironically, the thing that has probably been the most damaging for the filters has been the discussion in this thread and the one in meta. We've been throwing out suspicious keywords like mad.

Uh oh. One of the euphemisms I'd like to start using for the good of the forum is "mossy bank" (do a search on American Horror Story: Asylum quotes).

Geez. Talk about me missing the entire point. I...guess I should go back and edit those out.

Personally I've never been too interested in NSFW threads unless they have an interesting point beside looking at naked or nearly so women.

If I want to look at sexy women there are better places online to do so.
But...............being one who likes to push the limits I present to you....

Is that from the NSFW Pottery Shop in central Egypt or Greece? Back then they enjoyed that

LordMortis wrote:Finally, I feel really bad for you, MHS. Quoting you wasn't necessary for Hep's release. He's a great, if not charming guy and I bet dollars to doughnuts if he could take back looking like he was specifically calling you out, he would.

We've talked and we're both ok. Thanks for the thoughts.

Smoove_B wrote:Geez. Talk about me missing the entire point. I...guess I should go back and edit those out.

I edited my quote as well, so as to not make your sacrifice be in vain.

If you guys want to stop at the nsfw thread number we have thats fine. If you want to remove my last one or all of them thats not as fine but Ill go with it if you want to keep the board free of them. But this OO family bickering is tiresome. Its a clearly marked thread. People at worked get blocked for a reason..you are supposed to work. I can see taking a break and using it..that should be your time. Home workers it shouldn't affect. One or two feeling uncomfortable is a minority. If I dont like something I dont go in it or use it. Take the R&P area. I tried it. It came across as harse and mean so I left and never returned to that whole area. I dont ask that it be totally removed.

But do what is best for the OO community as a whole. This whole thing seems silly to me. Its like fucktard ridge in a way..not that crazy but seems like a non issue. But thats me and not the rest. I am glad this is a serious discussion and not name calling at least.

Maybe this whole post is silly. Someone surely finds it that way. Looking back in time I might too All Im trying to say is lets do something or nothing..and move on. This is just silly. Keep them , remove them, tone them down....who cares? My posts of the nsfw stuff used to get rousing approval and cheer...now they seem to bring this type thread. They can be avoided...or they can be cleaned. Yawn. Life is short. Try to enjoy it. I get joy from posting in them. Doesn't matter if its girls, cussing videos, dirty drawings, anything funny. I have a lot of funny laughing drawings that are dirty because of the language or the drawing...I thought my thread would be good for those too..they are funny. I have them from the WW2 generation..most are that era stuff.

First it was books, then radio, then theater, then tv, then video games...now NSFW.

Daehawk wrote:Is that from the NSFW Pottery Shop in central Egypt or Greece? Back then they enjoyed that

Les Demoiselles d'Avignon

Daehawk wrote:... People at worked get blocked for a reason..you are supposed to work. I can see taking a break and using it..that should be your time. Home workers it shouldn't affect...

You are really not going to win anyone over with this kind of thing, when it's those of us working who support you on disability.

Daehawk wrote:People at worked get blocked for a reason..you are supposed to work. .

Different companies have different policies about the occasional use of assigned computers and use of the Internet. There are plenty of companies that treat their employers as adults and expect them to use it wisely and with restraint.

So you can kindly get off your high horse about what we are supposed to be doing at work. And that's the nicest way I'm able to phrase it.

Daehawk wrote: First it was books, then radio, then theater, then tv, then video games...now NSFW.

I'm trying to understand what you could possibly mean. Are you arguing that these media have all been sanitized and censored?

On what planet?

MHS wrote:

Daehawk wrote:... People at worked get blocked for a reason..you are supposed to work. I can see taking a break and using it..that should be your time. Home workers it shouldn't affect...

You are really not going to win anyone over with this kind of thing, when it's those of us working who support you on disability.

…and that's putting it tactfully.

Let it go, Daehawk; that particular line of reasoning will absolutely do you no favours whatsoever.

As GreenGoo (and others) have noted, if people at work are no longer able to view this site or decide not being able to participate during business hours means not participating at all is fine, I guess turning this site into a Yoga Pant fetish repository won't be an issue. Hell, for all we know the reason there has been significant drop in participation is because the site has been flagged as non-work safe.

While I don't know why each individual person hangs out here, I certainly wouldn't want to do things that discourage participation. That's crazy talk.

Holman wrote:

Daehawk wrote: First it was books, then radio, then theater, then tv, then video games...now NSFW.

I'm trying to understand what you could possibly mean. Are you arguing that these media have all been sanitized and censored?

On what planet?

See there you are too serious again. Im sure you could infer the silliness...either lighten up or dont be an ass posting geez. Im tired of it.

EDIT:...I will start calling an asshole an asshole. Ive kept quiet for years. I dont post mean stuff in threads where the poster has been an ass to me. I may even join the postings and post something nice or helpful or in the spirit of the thread. I've kept quiet for years hoping the hamdful of asses and smartasses that come to my threads simply to post something assholy will either change, leave me be, or simply go away But there is a handful that do nothing but be an ass. Off hand I count 4 maybe 5. I can name them and you can all go look back at their postings if you like. But it doesn't seem to matter. Those who aren't in that handful will simply say Im being the ass and support their friends. Some of you are friends in RL and I can see that. Nothing changes. Im not simply sitting here letting it go now. Post something smartass or mean and Im calling you on it. im sure it wont be you getting banned so dont worry. Continue your attacks as usual. I put up wit ha super asshole named CeeKay on GT forever. I asked the mod for help which happened and cut it off and down...maybe a month. But once he started his shit again and nothing was done I had to simply leave a site I loved to use. i used it everyday. I dont want to lose another . But when the same group of posters continue their shit and nothing is done what other course is there? I cant abide meaness, stupidity, or childish crap.

Its a fucking clearly labeled NSFW thread. Go in or dont. Remove those threads or dont. Theres no reason to post YET MORE smarty posts. Im tired. And yes Im on my meds right now so I am posting clearly.

Smoove_B wrote:That's crazy talk.

I've about had it with crazy talk discrimination.

I don't understand why you won't say WHY it gives you joy to post those threads (referring specifically to the last one)?

RunningMn9 wrote:I don't understand why you won't say WHY it gives you joy to post those threads (referring specifically to the last one)?

Why does the answer matter, out of curiosity?

If there's one thing Holman is known for on OO, it's being an unrepentant a-hole.

I still don't think you quite grasp the larger issues here and I'm not sure what bringing information about someone from another site has anything to do with what's going on. I don't believe anyone has called you an ass, nor do I believe you're being attacked. I believe people are pointing out that you're not seeing why even having threads labeled NSFW with hotlinked pictures could be a problem. When you say things like, "What's the problem? You're at work. Don't open those threads or visit this forum.", that's pretty much telling those people that their input doesn't matter. I'm not even talking about how it makes people feel at this point. I'm talking about how it might be blocking people from actually visiting the site.

EDIT: And to be clear. I love NSFW images, but if I was in an office that flagged OO because of it, there would be zero chance of me participating in the site while at work in any capacity. I'm about as ambivalent towards NSFW tags as you can be and their presence or absence doesn't impact my participation here. As others have pointed out, there's a near infinite resource of the same images available everywhere else, so having them here (or not) doesn't change my life in any meaningful way.

Holman wrote:I think we've had a tacit consensus here for a long time:

1) lingerie is always OK,
2) coyly hinted nudity (up to and including nipslip) is always OK,
3) undisguised direct nudity is usually too much,
4) depiction or all-but-depiction of sex acts is definitely over the line.

This is probably what some kind of analysis of OO NSFW posting practices would show us. Occurrences of (3) have sometimes gone unremarked, but a repeated pattern invites pushback. Occurrences of (4) have almost never been acceptable, and never for their own sake.

If there's a single guiding principle in this, it's that (at OO) beauty is awesome but outright prurience is shady.

It's true that different people draw the line differently, but we always made allowance for personality quirks. The grey area is where (2) blurs into (3). I doubt that there's any real confusion in this community about what constitutes (4).

I would say that I agree with this almost completely. I believe there can be some ambiguity in all of them which requires someone to decide that it is or is not okay.

I think we are in much more danger of being flagged for gaming than for nudity though both should be considered. That said I think that the specific clause for the CoC regarding nudity needs, at most, a minor tweak to make it more clear what is, and is not allowed and we need to look at enforcement of the rule more closely.

El Guapo wrote:Why does the answer matter, out of curiosity?

Because I completely don't understand it. When I don't understand things, I ask questions.

dbt1949 wrote:Personally I've never been too interested in NSFW threads unless they have an interesting point beside looking at naked or nearly so women.

If I want to look at sexy women there are better places online to do so.
But...............being one who likes to push the limits I present to you....

The Elbows!!!! So Pointy Can't unsee it!

These threads don't bother me if we stick to what we have been doing for years. Hell one of the funniest meme's here is "Get her drunk and...." However, Like Lord Mortis I am pretty sure we should all be past the point of finding obviously higgh schooel age gerls hot.(misspelled to fool the machine!) That is just creepy. Cut that shit out.

MHS wrote:

Daehawk wrote:... People at worked get blocked for a reason..you are supposed to work. I can see taking a break and using it..that should be your time. Home workers it shouldn't affect...

You are really not going to win anyone over with this kind of thing, when it's those of us working who support you on disability.

This. I find it absurd that someone who does not work should be even commenting like that. Making that comment just let's everyone know you have not worked anywhere since compuserve was da bomb:) Plus blocking sites has nothing to do with slacking off. It's to avoid HR nightmares and prevent viruses from questionable sites (like gaming sites as pointed out) Work does not mean chained to your desk being productive for 10 hours nonstop. A mental break is actually encouraged by most companies.

MHS wrote:

LordMortis wrote:Finally, I feel really bad for you, MHS. Quoting you wasn't necessary for Hep's release. He's a great, if not charming guy and I bet dollars to doughnuts if he could take back looking like he was specifically calling you out, he would.

We've talked and we're both ok. Thanks for the thoughts.

Really happy to read this. Thanks for sharing.

--

sil·ly
adjective
1. Having or showing a lack of common sense or judgment; absurd and foolish.
synonyms: foolish, stupid, unintelligent, idiotic, brainless, mindless, witless, imbecilic, doltish; More
unwise, imprudent, thoughtless, foolish, stupid, idiotic, senseless, mindless;
rash, reckless, foolhardy, irresponsible, injudicious, misguided, irrational;
informal, crazy; daft, ridiculously trivial or frivolous.

Everyone uses words differently. Many people don't hold the definitions to the words they choose. Some of us (me in particular) tend to consider people's choices of words offensive and sometimes taken defensive. No matter how an argument goes, if the parties involved have an opportunity to express themselves, it's always good to take turns in order for things to get worked out. Sometimes it takes a few minutes other times it can go on for pages. Some can keep on going, others give up. We all are different and have different circumstances in our lives to continue or not.

When questions get asked and the answer isn't forth coming, the stress continues to build. Sometimes, we need to look inside of ourselves to figure out how to answer a question, which can take some time. Sometimes, the question isn't stated clearly or is not understood by others. Hashing things out in the written word, in my opinion is easier than in person. Typing things out takes time and then there is the ability to reread what is written before hitting submit.

Not all attacks are attacks. Not all words are dictionary approved. Not all comments are meant to cause harm. And hopefully not all posts are expected to demean or make others uncomfortable.

Daehawk wrote: ... But do what is best for the OO community as a whole. This whole thing seems silly to me. Its like fucktard ridge in a way..not that crazy but seems like a non issue. But thats me and not the rest. I am glad this is a serious discussion and not name calling at least.
...
Maybe this whole post is silly. Someone surely finds it that way. Looking back in time I might too All Im trying to say is lets do something or nothing..and move on. This is just silly...

I don't agree how this is silly. I believe I understand why you may think so. I respect your ability to look at the posts and comments in a different way as time goes by.
But we (OO we) are doing something, and that is talking this topic out. It isn't silly cause I for one am wondering what the "rules" are and how OO moves forward. NSFW is understandable, I get it, I am an adult and I can make choices for myself. The thing is, in my opinion, how much sexuality is necessary for a gaming forum?

Daehawk wrote:
See there you are too serious again. Im sure you could infer the silliness...either lighten up or dont be an ass posting geez. Im tired of it.

EDIT:...I will start calling an asshole an asshole. Ive kept quiet for years. I dont post mean stuff in threads where the poster has been an ass to me. I may even join the postings and post something nice or helpful or in the spirit of the thread. I've kept quiet for years hoping the hamdful of asses and smartasses that come to my threads simply to post something assholy will either change, leave me be, or simply go away But there is a handful that do nothing but be an ass. Off hand I count 4 maybe 5. I can name them and you can all go look back at their postings if you like. But it doesn't seem to matter. Those who aren't in that handful will simply say Im being the ass and support their friends. Some of you are friends in RL and I can see that. Nothing changes. Im not simply sitting here letting it go now. Post something smartass or mean and Im calling you on it. im sure it wont be you getting banned so dont worry. Continue your attacks as usual. I put up wit ha super asshole named CeeKay on GT forever. I asked the mod for help which happened and cut it off and down...maybe a month. But once he started his shit again and nothing was done I had to simply leave a site I loved to use. i used it everyday. I dont want to lose another . But when the same group of posters continue their shit and nothing is done what other course is there? I cant abide meaness, stupidity, or childish crap.

Its a fucking clearly labeled NSFW thread. Go in or dont. Remove those threads or dont. Theres no reason to post YET MORE smarty posts. Im tired. And yes Im on my meds right now so I am posting clearly.

Easy tiger. Dae, I have defended you in numerous threads over the years and have seen the exact pattern you mention. I for one admire you for all the shit you have taken and yet keep on keeping on with little no retaliation. Don't give in now! I enjoy your posting minus the occasional underage girl creepy pic so keep on keeping on and do your thing. The world would be a much more boring place if we all marched to the same beat.

RunningMn9 wrote:

El Guapo wrote:Why does the answer matter, out of curiosity?

Because I completely don't understand it. When I don't understand things, I ask questions.

Fair enough. Mainly I was wondering whether the motive was curiosity or judgmental (judgmentalness?).

Hug it out bitches.

Daehawk wrote:

Holman wrote:

Daehawk wrote: First it was books, then radio, then theater, then tv, then video games...now NSFW.

I'm trying to understand what you could possibly mean. Are you arguing that these media have all been sanitized and censored?

On what planet?

See there you are too serious again. Im sure you could infer the silliness...either lighten up or dont be an ass posting geez. Im tired of it.

I was being serious because I thought you were being serious. You seemed to be suggesting that the pushback on your NSFW stuff was censorship.

That's precisely the discussion we're having: what norms should we have here? What's appropriate, and how far is too far?

Rip wrote:Hug it out bitches.

Are you asking for one?

I'm not sure what bringing information about someone from another site has anything to do with what's going on. I don't believe anyone has called you an ass, nor do I believe you're being attacked.

I brought it up because I feel that is where it is headed here...that I will be leaving to solve the issue.

And I am attacked by the same few in most if not all my threads. Its not an out and out name calling,. Its the subtle well written jab or barb at me each and every damn time. Ya it bothers me like it would anyone but I dont post about it so as not to bring attention to the fool. but I will now....hope those of you doing it are happy. You dont even know me but you pick me out to attack. those are the asses. In RL Id simply knock you on your ass after a time. Here theres basically nothing to be done with you other than ignore or attack back. im done ignoring you. You get what you want.

Daehawk wrote:If you guys want to stop at the nsfw thread number we have thats fine. If you want to remove my last one or all of them thats not as fine but Ill go with it if you want to keep the board free of them. But this OO family bickering is tiresome. Its a clearly marked thread. People at worked get blocked for a reason..you are supposed to work.

There's a reason workplaces use websense (or similar services) to filter rather than just blocking internet access alltogether. Employees will have downtime, wait time, and beaks (well, not everyone since apparently you work straight through). It may be OK for them to check mail, forums, whatever. But things that will cause problems, things we like to call NSFW, are blocked. And by "problems" I mean liability issues, hostile work environment complaints, etc. Perhaps you are coming at this from a position of ignorance regarding the modern workplace. That's fine, but it might be wise to accept that some of use who are intimately familiar with it might know better.

Daehawk wrote: One or two feeling uncomfortable is a minority. If I dont like something I dont go in it or use it. Take the R&P area. I tried it. It came across as harse and mean so I left and never returned to that whole area. I dont ask that it be totally removed.

The problem here is that too much NSFW can get the whole site "totally removed." Posting all day in R&P isn't likely to get a fellow member's access to the site completely blocked. Posting NSFW all day will.

When a certain percentage of a site's content becomes NSFW stuff, that site become a NSFW site. The thereshold varies but inevitably the higher the %, the more people will be blocked. IOW, the behavior does cause problems for somone who never clicks on a topic (or even sees the topic at all).

Considering that having a high % of NSFW stuff is not , and has never been, integral OO, I don't see why this is even an issue.

Try tumblr for that kind of stuff. I really think you'll like it.

Daehawk wrote: One or two feeling uncomfortable is a minority.

This I have a problem with. No, you cannot please everyone all the time. But justifying an action by saying, "Well, it only affects a minority so it doesn't really matter" is something else. I hope that further explanation isn't necessary.

LawBeefaroni wrote:

Daehawk wrote: One or two feeling uncomfortable is a minority.

This I have a problem with. No, you cannot please everyone all the time. But justifying an action by saying, "Well, it only affects a minority so it doesn't really matter" is something else. I hope that further explanation isn't necessary.

But if you can't please everyone all the time, by definition you must accept one or two (at least) people being uncomfortable no matter which choice you make.