[WW-Monty Python]Remus' first game - END ENGLISH WIN

Grundbegriff · Post by **Grundbegriff** » Sat Jan 20, 2007 6:10 pm

Chaosraven wrote:Pretend for a moment that Grund is trying to provoke us into voting for him...

C'mon, 'raven. You know I play a deeper game than that. Nestlé?

Chaosraven · Post by **Chaosraven** » Sat Jan 20, 2007 6:15 pm

I am wondering why your pic was deleted, too.

But I was reading into your posts and figuring you might be (role deleted) based on the potential for attracting votes to be executed.

ezmate · Post by **ezmate** » Sun Jan 21, 2007 1:04 am

Chaosraven wrote:
ezmate wrote:I say we pick off the least involved (even if it turns out to be me).
If we have 2 vocal and One Silent French, my Euros are on EZMATE as the silent partner, for the record.

Thsi would allow his partners to Agree in Public with eliminating silent Players but as it is something HE is in favor of (including HIMSELF, you will note) it puts him staunchly in the Good Guy Column. Tactic: Sneaky Groundwork Laid Here

I don't really consider this to be groundwork for anything. If the inactive player (ArmyOfOne) proves to be a frog, I don't harbor any illusions that people are going to say, "Wow, Ezmate was right - we really should trust him!". If ArmyOfOne is an innocent (as is most likely), I don't really see how that will build any trust in me either.

I think that inactive players hurt the game more than they help it*. There's a good chance that they'll be proven innocent, and a small chance that they're guilty (probably about the same chance as we have of randomly picking someone). But if we're gonna kill an innocent, at least it should be an inactive one.

So, to remain true to my idea of killing the most inactive player, I promise to vote for whomever has the least posts as of 6 PM (central) on Sunday.**

*An inactive player is impossible to judge - he doesn't say anything for us to work with. Not only that, but by refusing to vote, he makes the bad guys' votes slightly more powerful (3 votes vs 12 instead of 13 - this gets more significant as the game goes on).

**Of course if that's me, I won't vote for myself.

ezmate · Post by **ezmate** » Sun Jan 21, 2007 1:05 am

Kelric wrote:Okay, anyone else ready to lynch Grund because of the language thing?

God, yes.

ezmate · Post by **ezmate** » Sun Jan 21, 2007 1:24 am

Dennis - As a peasant he can not be lynched. As long as his identity is secret. If he mouths off about the violence inherent in the system before it actually gets violent with him the group will kill him just to shut him up. This is mostly to keep him from shouting "Hey. I'm Dennis" not from implying it. If a lynch vote happens to target him and gain a majority there will be no hanging that day.

Here's some food for thought:

Given the tiny sliver of information we're dealing with, the first lynching is likely to result in the death of an innocent (75% likely).

However, if on the first move, we lynch Dennis, there will be no lynching.

Identifying Dennis on the first move means we have one less person to consider for future lynchings, we don't lose an innocent, AND the seer (Brother Maynard) has one less person to consider.

Heck, if we try to lynch Dennis and fail, then Sir Lancelot knows who to protect.

Now, if there were only a way to identify Dennis...

ezmate · Post by **ezmate** » Sun Jan 21, 2007 1:27 am

Hey Grund, you're pretty good with the logical thinking stuff...

Care to comment on the above analysis (in english, please)?

Chaosraven · Post by **Chaosraven** » Sun Jan 21, 2007 1:28 am

We could all put our thumbs on the table and last guy in is Dennis...

1-2-3 NOT DENNIS!

ezmate · Post by **ezmate** » Sun Jan 21, 2007 1:29 am

Remus West wrote: Dennis - As a peasant he can not be lynched. As long as his identity is secret. If he mouths off about the violence inherent in the system before it actually gets violent with him the group will kill him just to shut him up. This is mostly to keep him from shouting "Hey. I'm Dennis" not from implying it. If a lynch vote happens to target him and gain a majority there will be no hanging that day.

Remus, what exactly constitutes a "secret"? What happens if most people think they know who Dennis is, but Dennis has never said anything to confirm that opinion?

ezmate · Post by **ezmate** » Sun Jan 21, 2007 1:30 am

Can you tell that I've found some time to post?

Chaosraven · Post by **Chaosraven** » Sun Jan 21, 2007 1:33 am

And totally removed yourself from my "Silent Suspicion Slot" as well.

How conveeeeeeeeenient

I would imagine that if we all claim to NOT BE DENNIS, Dennis could not be held accountable, right?

ezmate · Post by **ezmate** » Sun Jan 21, 2007 1:38 am

Chaosraven wrote: I would imagine that if we all claim to NOT BE DENNIS, Dennis could not be held accountable, right?

I'd think that's a little too close to saying that you ARE Dennis. In any case, I'd like Remus's ruling before we screw it up by assuming how that rule is interepreted.

I have a guess as to who Dennis is, but I want to hear what Remus has to say before I come out & say a name...

Grundbegriff · Post by **Grundbegriff** » Sun Jan 21, 2007 1:48 am

ezmate wrote:Hey Grund, you're pretty good with the logical thinking stuff... Care to comment on the above analysis (in english, please)?

I agree that, on balance, it's better in the early game to kill a silent one than an active one. I also agree that advocating this does nothing to earn or lose trust; it's just common sense that silence helps the bad guys.

The greatest risk in the Random Round (i.e., #1) is to kill someone who matters but isn't French. Time and again in these games, we've seen a teamkill-that-mattered very early in the game.

For this reason, Dennis is never more valuable than in the first round, when (whatever else happens) he can prevent the accidental lynching of a Special at the moment when it's most likely to occur (due to total ignorance on the part of nearly everyone).

Kelric · Post by **Kelric** » Sun Jan 21, 2007 2:05 am

Grundbegriff wrote:For this reason, Dennis is never more valuable than in the first round, when (whatever else happens) he can prevent the accidental lynching of a Special at the moment when it's most likely to occur (due to total ignorance on the part of nearly everyone).

Well, I have convinced myself that Grund may be Dennis.

Grundbegriff now gets my vote. For that and for the annoying talking in pig Latin.

Chaosraven · Post by **Chaosraven** » Sun Jan 21, 2007 2:07 am

Well way to be OVERT ya goon... I at least deleted the role from my accusation!

Kelric · Post by **Kelric** » Sun Jan 21, 2007 2:09 am

Chaosraven wrote:Well way to be OVERT ya goon... I at least deleted the role from my accusation!

Please, like half of us weren't thinking it already. In fact, it's better to put it out there I think.

If we vote for Grund and he is Dennis, then we all KNOW he's Dennis. What's the point in not saying what we suspect in this situation?

If we vote for Grund and he isn't Dennis, I feel that aside from lynching the quiet ones, there's almost no set strategy in the first turn. Losing Grund will hurt if he's innocent, but he has as much random chance to be so as everybody else.

Saying Grund is Dennis and getting people to fall in line with that vote seems to me to be the BEST idea in this situation. Can you prove me wrong?

Edit - This is assuming that the way I read the rules that say

Remus West wrote:If he mouths off about the violence inherent in the system before it actually gets violent with him the group will kill him just to shut him up. This is mostly to keep him from shouting "Hey. I'm Dennis" not from implying it.

As long as Grund doesn't confirm it, it's just people speculating about one role as much as any other.

Lassr · Post by **Lassr** » Sun Jan 21, 2007 2:11 am

Kelric wrote:
Grundbegriff wrote:For this reason, Dennis is never more valuable than in the first round, when (whatever else happens) he can prevent the accidental lynching of a Special at the moment when it's most likely to occur (due to total ignorance on the part of nearly everyone).
Well, I have convinced myself that Grund may be Dennis.

Grundbegriff now gets my vote. For that and for the annoying talking in pig Latin.

I'll wait and hear from Remus. I'm a little confused also about the keeping a secret part. If Grund is Dennis then it's no longer a secret. Or is it that the player cannot come out and say he is Dennis.

Grundbegriff · Post by **Grundbegriff** » Sun Jan 21, 2007 2:16 am

Kelric wrote:Saying Grund is Dennis and getting people to fall in line with that vote seems to me to be the BEST idea in this situation. Can you prove me wrong?

Yes.

For some, the BEST idea in this situation is to pretend to be Dennis in order to see who reacts this way, and who reacts that.

For some, the BEST idea is to set an example in order to goad the real Dennis into making his identity clear without violating the terms of his immunity.

Chaosraven · Post by **Chaosraven** » Sun Jan 21, 2007 2:16 am

Wow that would be a wicked trick for the French... "he's Dennis" "no HE's Dennis" cuz if we believe, then it's not secret... he hangs... then the next one gets the "Ok, THIS one is Dennis, cuz the last one hung"

Would this mean that asking him flat out if he wants us to vote for him could be construed as asking if he's Dennis?

Man, the possible permutations of interpreting what is asked and how it is answered and whether it violates the Dennisian Secrecy Act would take a whole team of Lawyers. Good thing we have some

Lassr · Post by **Lassr** » Sun Jan 21, 2007 2:19 am

Chaosraven wrote:Wow that would be a wicked trick for the French... "he's Dennis" "no HE's Dennis" cuz if we believe, then it's not secret... he hangs... then the next one gets the "Ok, THIS one is Dennis, cuz the last one hung"

Would this mean that asking him flat out if he wants us to vote for him could be construed as asking if he's Dennis?

Man, the possible permutations of interpreting what is asked and how it is answered and whether it violates the Dennisian Secrecy Act would take a whole team of Lawyers. Good thing we have some

I think my brain just exploded.

Chaosraven · Post by **Chaosraven** » Sun Jan 21, 2007 2:22 am

As an interesting side note it won't hurt to state

I AM DENNIS

as if I am not, I'm lying and would hang when lynched.
Or if I was, I would have negated my ability to avoid lynching.

So either I'm (A) Lying - I am, in case you couldn't tell
or I'm (B) Dennis, but no longer have the NonLynchable ability

The Latter is NOT TRUE.

Grundbegriff · Post by **Grundbegriff** » Sun Jan 21, 2007 2:23 am

In the rules, Sir Remus wrote:If [Dennis] mouths off about the violence inherent in the system before it actually gets violent with him the group will kill him just to shut him up. This is mostly to keep him from shouting "Hey. I'm Dennis" not from implying it.

Presumably, this means that Dennis cannot say any of the following:

I'm Dennis
Man
I'm not old; I'm 37.
Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony.
...because some moistened bint had lobbed a scimitar at me, they'd put me away!
Help! Help! I'm being repressed!
etc....

On the other hand, Dennis could do any of what I've done, or could throw in a wink-wink, nudge-nudge, or proceed along any of a dozen similarly indirect courses to divulge his identity.

Chaosraven · Post by **Chaosraven** » Sun Jan 21, 2007 2:26 am

Hey, I was wondering... what is revealed upon death? Day or Night or Special...

Just nationality? If Tim blows up a frog, do we get that info?

Remus West · Post by **Remus West** » Sun Jan 21, 2007 2:28 am

Kelric wrote:
Remus West wrote:If he mouths off about the violence inherent in the system before it actually gets violent with him the group will kill him just to shut him up. This is mostly to keep him from shouting "Hey. I'm Dennis" not from implying it.
As long a player doesn't confirm it, it's just people speculating about one role as much as any other.

Speculate all you want. Imply all you want. If Dennis comes forward and says "I am Dennis" or "Lynch me I can not be killed" or something else overt about his ability he will lose it. He can talk about sacrificing himself or voting for himself all he wants. He can goad you all he wants. Others can also talk of sacrificing themselves or voting for themselves.

Remus West · Post by **Remus West** » Sun Jan 21, 2007 2:29 am

Chaosraven wrote:Hey, I was wondering... what is revealed upon death? Day or Night or Special...

Just nationality? If Tim blows up a frog, do we get that info?

Just nationality. Yes.

ezmate · Post by **ezmate** » Sun Jan 21, 2007 2:29 am

Chaosraven wrote:Well way to be OVERT ya goon... I at least deleted the role from my accusation!

Heh...this is exactly what I was thinking & trying to avoid when I started my entire Dennis line of thought.

Well, since the cat's out of the bag and Grund had nothing to do with it (other than being annoying), I now choose to vote to lynch Grundbegriff.

By the way, Grund, you can vote for yourself!

Remus West · Post by **Remus West** » Sun Jan 21, 2007 2:31 am

Grundbegriff wrote:
In the rules, Sir Remus wrote:If [Dennis] mouths off about the violence inherent in the system before it actually gets violent with him the group will kill him just to shut him up. This is mostly to keep him from shouting "Hey. I'm Dennis" not from implying it.
Presumably, this means that Dennis cannot say any of the following:

I'm Dennis

Man

I'm not old; I'm 37.

Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony.

...because some moistened bint had lobbed a scimitar at me, they'd put me away!

Help! Help! I'm being repressed!

etc....
On the other hand, Dennis could do any of what I've done, or could throw in a wink-wink, nudge-nudge, or proceed along any of a dozen similarly indirect courses to divulge his identity.

Well said. I think that covers it.

Lassr · Post by **Lassr** » Sun Jan 21, 2007 2:33 am

ok. I'll change my vote to Grundbegriff

Chaosraven · Post by **Chaosraven** » Sun Jan 21, 2007 2:37 am

The other bonus is that if Dennis doesn't hang, Lancelot can protect him each night without fear of accidentally dying by protecting a Frenchman...

So the French will have to choose someone other than the Known Good Guy to kill in the hopes they hit Maynard or Lancelot as Dennis becomes essentially Bulletproof (role) as long as (1)Lance is alive and (2)Chooses to protect Dennis.

This could set up a few days for Maynard to gather info before coming forth...

ezmate · Post by **ezmate** » Sun Jan 21, 2007 2:38 am

What's the vote tally? I'm too lazy & tired to do it myself...

Remus West · Post by **Remus West** » Sun Jan 21, 2007 2:39 am

1. Mr Bubbles - ArmyOfOne
2. UsulofDoom
3. pr0ner - Grundbegriff
4. ChrisGrenard
5. Cesare - Dead
6. Kelric - Grundbegriff
7. brettmcd - Grundbegriff
8. ArmyOfOne
9. Lassr - Grundbegriff
10. ezmate - Grundbegriff
11. Orinoco
12. PR_GMR - Mr Bubbles
13. Chaosraven - PR_GMR
14. Grundbegriff
15. Kraegor
16. Ralph-Wiggum - Chaosraven

If I have not missed any the votes stand at:
Mr Bubbles - 1
Chaosraven - 1
ArmyOfOne - 1
Grundbegriff - 5
PR_GMR - 1

Currently 15 players majority is 8.

Grundbegriff · Post by **Grundbegriff** » Sun Jan 21, 2007 2:41 am

With all due respect, I'm not Dennis.

I would recommend that everyone else who is not Dennis come forth and say so. In light of Remus's clarification, we're clearly allowed to be overt, as long as Dennis isn't overt.

Once we've all clarified that we're not Dennis (as I most assuredly am not), the guy who doesn't pitch in must be Dennis. That's the one we should vote down, for the sake of England.

Lassr · Post by **Lassr** » Sun Jan 21, 2007 2:42 am

Chaosraven wrote:The other bonus is that if Dennis doesn't hang, Lancelot can protect him each night without fear of accidentally dying by protecting a Frenchman...

So the French will have to choose someone other than the Known Good Guy to kill in the hopes they hit Maynard or Lancelot as Dennis becomes essentially Bulletproof (role) as long as (1)Lance is alive and (2)Chooses to protect Dennis.

This could set up a few days for Maynard to gather info before coming forth...

I believe you are correct. I went back and read the rules to make sure because in the other games I played you could not protect the same person 2 nights in a row but the rules for this game state no such restriction.

Grundbegriff · Post by **Grundbegriff** » Sun Jan 21, 2007 2:45 am

Chaosraven wrote:The other bonus is that if Dennis doesn't hang, Lancelot can protect him each night without fear of accidentally dying by protecting a Frenchman...

So the French will have to choose someone other than the Known Good Guy to kill in the hopes they hit Maynard or Lancelot as Dennis becomes essentially Bulletproof (role) as long as (1)Lance is alive and (2)Chooses to protect Dennis.

This could set up a few days for Maynard to gather info before coming forth...

That's a good plan, provided we figure out who Dennis is.

Now, get with the program and say you're not Dennis, if indeed you're not Dennis. Meanwhile, if you are Dennis, don't address the issue at all!

ezmate · Post by **ezmate** » Sun Jan 21, 2007 2:47 am

Grundbegriff wrote:With all due respect, I'm not Dennis.

I would recommend that everyone else who is not Dennis come forth and say so. In light of Remus's clarification, we're clearly allowed to be overt, as long as Dennis isn't overt.

Once we've all clarified that we're not Dennis (as I most assuredly am not), the guy who doesn't pitch in must be Dennis. That's the one we should vote down, for the sake of England.

Well, son of a bitch. What was with all the french speaking?

ezmate · Post by **ezmate** » Sun Jan 21, 2007 2:47 am

I'm not Dennis.

Chaosraven · Post by **Chaosraven** » Sun Jan 21, 2007 2:48 am

Grundbegriff wrote:With all due respect, I'm not Dennis

Guys? Are you paying attention here?

pr0ner, Kelric, brettmcd, Lassr, ezmate

Looking for a nifty little retraction here...

and once again

I AM NOT DENNIS <---- true

ezmate · Post by **ezmate** » Sun Jan 21, 2007 2:49 am

I retract my vote for Grundbegriff

ezmate · Post by **ezmate** » Sun Jan 21, 2007 2:51 am

Time for bed guys...I'll see where we stand tomorrow.

Chaosraven · Post by **Chaosraven** » Sun Jan 21, 2007 2:51 am

I have an idea... how about if a couple of you point votes my way until we sort this out... I'm a little leery of having near majority on a Logic Asset

Thaaaaaat's right, point those little fingers at the Behavioral Scientist...

NOT ALL OF THEM for DENNISSAKES

Chaosraven · Post by **Chaosraven** » Sun Jan 21, 2007 2:52 am

Ok... good.

Let's try to get some interaction from everyone here before we accidentally kill someone.

Octopus Overlords

[WW-Monty Python]Remus' first game - END ENGLISH WIN

Re: [Werewolf-Monty Python]Remus' first game - Full