Marvel Comics sues City of Heroes

[Kadoth Nodens]

Linky:
http://cnn.netscape.cnn.com/news/story. ... tm&sc=1333

I'm not a law-talkey guy, but I deal with some (really basic) IP issues at work. I think (and hope) Marvel's gonna get it's butt handed to it on this one.

When Marvel went after the Freedom Force fansites back in the day, I thought it was tacky, but understood. There were some actual trademark issues there, since people were essentially offering Marvel themed mods for FF without Marvel's permission. If you don't protect your trademarks, you can lose them, blah blah blah.

This one, however, seems ridiculous. Yes, players have the capacity to use the CoH engine to create something that looks similar to one of Marvel's trademarked characters. But I can do that with my WWF gamecube game, too, or any one of a dozen other games with a "create a character" feature.

As far as copyright issues go, I think Marvel has even less of a leg to stand on than with the trademark thing. CoH isn't retelling any of Marvel's stories, so I can't see what copyrights are being violated. (Again, I'm not a lawyer, so I could be missing something. If one of the Harvey Birdmen decides to weigh in on this, they're right & I'm wrong).

So, in closing, this sucks and Marvel can bite me!

[Windows95]

I can just see Halloween next year. There will be teams of roving Marvel lawyers waiting to jump out of vans and rip homemade non-sanctioned Spidey costumes off of kids, just before they slap a lawsuit on their parents.

[Eduardo X]

I can just see Halloween next year. There will be teams of roving Marvel lawyers waiting to jump out of vans and rip homemade non-sanctioned Spidey costumes off of kids, just before they slap a lawsuit on their parents.

Don't give them any ideas.

[LawBeefaroni]

The personal computer game enables players to design superheroes' look and abilities and then battle against other players' characters in a virtual city.

Hey, when did they add PvP?


Marvel should worry more about themselves killing their own properties and less about suing games that promote comics in general.

[McNutt]

I can understand Marvel's concern. I saw lots of characters that people had designed to look just like a Marvel character. Plus, how unique are retractable Wolverine-type claws? Still, since NCsoft isn't the ones creating the characters I'd be less inclined to find them at fault. What scares me are the ramifications of this lawsuit, should it succeed.

[Peacedog]

But I can do that with my WWF gamecube game

Also a pencil and a piece of paper.

Didn't Rob Liefeld win his suit with Marvel over the whole Captain America. . .what ever the dude Ragin Rob made up that looked eeriely like Captain America but had different colors (except Rob's dude had 6000 ab muscles and no wrists. Well, I guess that was like Captain America if you count the time he drew CA)? If he was allowed to draw his CA-alike comic (and my understanding is that he was pretty similar; recollections of the pictures I saw are vague), I wonder if that could have an affect here. This is a different situation, true.

You know, lots and lots of MUDS forbid the use of names from "famous works of fiction". I don't know what the status is with most MMORPGs, but I don't recall it being a requirement in CoH. I wonder if companies will have to start doing that. I always figured it was a move that 1) was precautionary (perhaps overly so) and more importantly 2) helped socalled "RP" MUDs improve their flavor, getting the player base to put more into their characters.

OTOH, if companies do have to do this, then you'll just see a bunch of WolverineSux and MarvelSux names, and that's legit. And funnier.

As far as copyright issues go, I think Marvel has even less of a leg to stand on than with the trademark thing. CoH isn't retelling any of Marvel's stories, so I can't see what copyrights are being violated. (Again, I'm not a lawyer, so I could be missing something. If one of the Harvey Birdmen decides to weigh in on this, they're right & I'm wrong).

Reusing themes is very common in comic books. And, you know, the entirety of all written literature and other forms of story telling media. Of course, that doesn't speak to the dilution issue (which I assume is what that claim about "disrupting future business prospects" is all about (but what do I know). If Marvel is worried about future business prospects, I have two recommendations for them:

1) don't allow your properties to appear in crappy games or movies (I haven't played anything outside of Spider Man 2 recently, and that was decent. And I've enjoyed the Spidermen/Xmen, and even thought the Hulk was ok. I just think it's good general advice to keep in mind).

2) Don't produce crappy comic books ( I don't read anything marvel and can't speak to the quality of anything they are doing. The 80/20 rule tells me that at least some of what they are doing sucks, though).

My consulting services can be obtained for a longer-term basis, for the right price. Marvel should contact me via the email in my profile if they wish to speak further. Thank you, and good night.

Plus, how unique are retractable Wolverine-type claws?

I dunno, how many felines are there in existence right now?

Now, funniness aside, that does speak to a point I made earlier. This guy copied Captain America, drew the new guy, and made a comic based on him (he used to work for Marvel and worked on CA briefly). The new character threw his shield and everything, AFAIK. And I'm pretty sure he won his suit with Marvel. You can't trademark something like "retractable claws" (though it is noteworthy that you don't have anything like Wolverine's claws in CoH. Just a spikes-based melee archetype, it doesn't look anything like claws comming out of the knuckles, though).

[McNutt]

You can't trademark something like "retractable claws" (though it is noteworthy that you don't have anything like Wolverine's claws in CoH. Just a spikes-based melee archetype, it doesn't look anything like claws comming out of the knuckles, though).

Unless my memory is bad, CoH has a Spikes fighter, which is what you described, and a Claws fighter ala Wolverine.

[Kasey Chang]

The purpose of the lawsuit is NOT actually to get an injuction, but to make NCSoft / Cryptic to pay Marvel a bit of licensing fee. Basically, the way I see it, Marvel is in a can't lose situation. If the suit fails, they really haven't lost anything and can only generate publicity. If the suit succeeds, they get $$$ out of it, esp. if it's settled out of court.

Marvel, if they are serious, is fighting a losing battle. How close is too close? There's at least 6-10 versions of Wolverine, from the bright-yellow to the darker mud-color outfit to the black movie-style outfit and more. There's the short-sleeve vs. long sleeve, there's the X-Men Evo vs. X-Men vs. god-knows-what-else. They can't copyright every single variation and "close enough" variations. Same with all other characters.

The PROPER WAY to do this would be asking NCSoft to PREVENT users from creating the exact replicas, reserving them for official reps of the companies involved, then run special story arcs with maybe comic book tie-ins with those characters in the game.

[Phouka]

Plus, how unique are retractable Wolverine-type claws?

Well, lesse... cats have been doing it for thousands of years....

Pooks

[Phouka]

Unless my memory is bad, CoH has a Spikes fighter, which is what you described, and a Claws fighter ala Wolverine.

Your memory is quite correct. Claws is one of the primary power pools for the Scrapper archetype, and is exactly Wolverine-style.

Pooks

[Phouka]

The purpose of the lawsuit is NOT actually to get an injuction, but to make NCSoft / Cryptic to pay Marvel a bit of licensing fee.

You know this how?

They can't copyright every single variation

Why not?

The PROPER WAY to do this would be asking NCSoft to PREVENT users from creating the exact replicas, reserving them for official reps of the companies involved, then run special story arcs with maybe comic book tie-ins with those characters in the game.

I bet NCSoft/Cryptic would have no desire in doing that because those heroes aren't part of the CoH universe/story line. Not that they can't write it in, of course, but from reading many, many posts by Statesman and the like I just get the feeling that they're very serious about sticking tight to their own story. I personally think the idea is cool; I'm just saying that my hunch is that it wouldn't be well-received.

Pooks

[LawBeefaroni]

CoH doesn't allow you to name your character "Wolverine" or "Spiderman" There are tons alternative spellings, like "Hullkk" or "Wolverin" or whatever running around. But NC's policy is no trademarked names (within reason), no profanity, and the rest of the usual prohibitions.

What if I named an EQ character "Froddo" or something? What if I hop on Call of Duty as "GI Joe"? Call the cops, I'm ripping someone off!

The CoH universe has nothing to do with Marvel's. Just because players lack a little creativity doesn't mean NC is leeching properties.

[Blackhawk]

I am pleased to be part of the opposing position - check out the Gamespot news article on this. Those who remember my CoH stint may get the connection.

[Zarathud]

I have no sympathy for Marvel after hearing how the company a while back stiffed a friend who inks comic books for a living. And even before Marvel refused to pay, they sent checks late.

[jpinard]

I hate Marvel. Jerks. I thought this was a free country? Freedom of Speech?

[Kasey Chang]

The purpose of the lawsuit is NOT actually to get an injuction, but to make NCSoft / Cryptic to pay Marvel a bit of licensing fee.

You know this how?

Intuition.

Marvel wants to see if it can force their way into the market or not. They don't really have the money to reinvent the technology and the system and the servers and all that. They need a partner. Right now, nobody want ot partner with them without knowing the result of the lawsuit.

They can't copyright every single variation

Why not?

Simple logistics. It's too easy to come up with simple variations. You can't copyright a "class" of products or expressions.

The PROPER WAY to do this would be asking NCSoft to PREVENT users from creating the exact replicas, reserving them for official reps of the companies involved, then run special story arcs with maybe comic book tie-ins with those characters in the game.

I bet NCSoft/Cryptic would have no desire in doing that because those heroes aren't part of the CoH universe/story line. Not that they can't write it in, of course, but from reading many, many posts by Statesman and the like I just get the feeling that they're very serious about sticking tight to their own story. I personally think the idea is cool; I'm just saying that my hunch is that it wouldn't be well-received.

Not on the corporate side, but imagine this scenario:

NCSoft announce a co-branding/cross-licensing deal with Marvel. Marvel gets a separate set of servers and a separate domain name called MarvelHeroes or something where they can do their own style of villains and heroes and whatnot. You can pay to transfer your character(s) from the plain COH server to the Marvel server or vice-versa (or maybe it's free on trial basis) and follow some official/unofficial escapades with official Marvel licensed adventures.

Marvel gets what they want: a foot into the market, with minimal investment (just creative staff who crafts the adventures, and maybe some sysadmin guys who watches things).

NCSoft gets what they want: no more bother from Marvel, possible similar deal with DC later (someone got to be first), and no more competition (who else would invest $$$ when you can license the existing game engine and all that?)

Personally, I conjecture that Marvel knw they don't have a leg to stand on. in the lawsuit. Suing the system server for USER-created content will not work. Didn't DCMA already provided safe harbors for ISPs in this case? Cryptic/NCSoft could just claim they are an ISP in a sense. The lawsuit itself doesn't make sense. It's like suing marker-maker for graffiti (or gunmaker for gun violence, but that's another story).

[Grifman]

Marvel wants to see if it can force their way into the market or not. They don't really have the money to reinvent the technology and the system and the servers and all that. They need a partner. Right now, nobody want ot partner with them without knowing the result of the lawsuit.

Nice idea, but your theory doesn't withstand the facts - Marvel has already announced a MMORPG partnership with Vivendi:

http://www.icv2.com/articles/news/1848.html

Good try though

Grifman

[Kasey Chang]

Announcement's don't mean jack. Didn't Matrix Online go through a couple different partners before Sega suddenly popped up and said "we'll do it"? EVERYBODY knows Matrix Online will be hot, but not all people can take the heat.

EDIT: Your link is from 2002, with supposedly product in 2005. Neither side has shown ANY progress since then. If they had actual progress, they would have rolled out the stuff in "beta" and press releases and generate the actual buzz rather than this lawyer-talk. The fact that they have to resort to lawyer talk seems to me that they don't HAVE anything to show for it and had to resort to legal challenges to trip up COH.

Heck, Vivendi's track record with game companies ain't good to start with. Sierra has been trimmed and trimmed again. Vivendi has few developement studios under it. Papyrus is gone. Dynamix is gone. Heck, besides Valve, who else does Vivendi have as a studio?

The closest they got is Irrational Games (developer of Freedom Force), and they don't do MMORPGs (yet), and Irrational is independent, though leaning toward VU at the moment as VU will be publishing FFv3R after collapse of Crave Entertainment, and already published Tribes Vengeance. They also have SWAT4 coming up.

EDIT: Marvel should get smart and team with Irrational (who happens to be aligned with VU at the moment) to do a licensed/sanctioned version of Freedom Force with Marvel Heroes to keep the people's interest rather then having them all run over to COH. This lawyer talk only generates negative publicity for the company among the gamers.

[Grifman]

Announcement's don't mean jack.

Speculation doesn't mean jack either - in fact it means even less jack So far I have publicly announced signed 10 year contract between Marvel and Vivendi and you have what . . . ? Mere speculation. So which has a stronger basis in fact?

Grifman

[Kasey Chang]

Announcement's don't mean jack.

Speculation doesn't mean jack either - in fact it means even less jack So far I have publicly announced signed 10 year contract between Marvel and Vivendi and you have what . . . ? Mere speculation. So which has a stronger basis in fact?

How about this fact: VU Games have NO announced plans for a game, MMORPG or otherwise, based on Marvel property.

You'd think with COH doing so well, they should at least drop a couple press lreleases that essentially says "Wait until you see what WE got up our sleeves", but nope, not a peep (except from lawyers).

Could the fact that the Hulk game was merely average, and the Wolverine game really sucked, have anything to do with it? At least X-men Legends looks to be okay.

The only MMORPG's listed on VUGames are World of Warcraft, and Middle-Earth Online.

And finally, looks like your VUGames deal is dead and buried, since here's a newer deal: Marvel and EA

http://www.marvel.com/company/showarticle.htm?id=22

However, it seems to be limited to fighting games only.

And isn't Hulk and Wolverine published through Acitvision?

[Blackhawk]

Personally, I think Marvel just decided on a zero-tolerance policy for derivative work at some point in the past, and doesn't distinguish this from fan fiction, Freedom Force skins, or copied art. They are just following a blind directive, that's all.

[Smoove_B]

As long as they don't go after my girlfriend Misty Mundae in Spiderbabe, we should be ok.

[Grifman]

And finally, looks like your VUGames deal is dead and buried, since here's a newer deal: Marvel and EA

http://www.marvel.com/company/showarticle.htm?id=22

However, it seems to be limited to fighting games only.

Since as you noted this is limited only to fighting games, and has absolutely nothing to do with an MMORPG, this does not support your assertion that the VUGames deal is dead. It indeed may be dead, but this is not evidence of that death.

Grifman

[noun]

Or maybe Marvel simply thinking that since they now have several multimillion blockbusters behind them, they'll have powerful movie studios as allies, therefore, a legal victory is more likely and thus a solid business strategy.