Social Media Mob Justice

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malchior
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Social Media Mob Justice

Post by malchior »

Mob Justice is Trampling Democratic Discourse

Anna Applebaum has written what I can only call the grand unified theory of the current vein of illiberalism we are seeing across our society. She tied together concepts and issues that seems unrelated and brings them into a single framework. Including discussions of lack of due process, opaqueness of process, social ostracism, and severe consequences including suicide. She essentially argues that what we are seeing in so-called 'cancel culture' incidents across the media and academia and even in the right-wing are all perhaps one phenomenon which the piece headlines as the 'The New Puritans'. If you don't have access to the Atlantic I recommend that you might want to find a way to read it (via an aggregator or library). I think it will be seen as the most important treatments of the topic.
It was no great distance, in those days, from the prison-door to the market-place. Measured by the prisoner’s experience, however, it might be reckoned a journey of some length.”

So begins the tale of Hester Prynne, as recounted in Nathaniel Hawthorne’s most famous novel, The Scarlet Letter. As readers of this classic American text know, the story begins after Hester gives birth to a child out of wedlock and refuses to name the father. As a result, she is sentenced to be mocked by a jeering crowd, undergoing “an agony from every footstep of those that thronged to see her, as if her heart had been flung into the street for them all to spurn and trample upon.” After that, she must wear a scarlet A—for adulterer—pinned to her dress for the rest of her life. On the outskirts of Boston, she lives in exile. No one will socialize with her—not even those who have quietly committed similar sins, among them the father of her child, the saintly village preacher. The scarlet letter has “the effect of a spell, taking her out of the ordinary relations with humanity, and enclosing her in a sphere by herself.”

We read that story with a certain self-satisfaction: Such an old-fashioned tale! Even Hawthorne sneered at the Puritans, with their “sad-colored garments and grey steeple-crowned hats,” their strict conformism, their narrow minds and their hypocrisy. And today we are not just hip and modern; we live in a land governed by the rule of law; we have procedures designed to prevent the meting-out of unfair punishment. Scarlet letters are a thing of the past.

Except, of course, they aren’t. Right here in America, right now, it is possible to meet people who have lost everything—jobs, money, friends, colleagues—after violating no laws, and sometimes no workplace rules either. Instead, they have broken (or are accused of having broken) social codes having to do with race, sex, personal behavior, or even acceptable humor, which may not have existed five years ago or maybe five months ago. Some have made egregious errors of judgment. Some have done nothing at all. It is not always easy to tell.

<snip>
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Jaymann
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Re: Social Media Mob Justice

Post by Jaymann »

Also I can't stand the apology culture for imagined or miniscule misspoken words, for fear of backlash.
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malchior
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Re: Social Media Mob Justice

Post by malchior »

Just in case people think this is only on the left.

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Re: Social Media Mob Justice

Post by Madmarcus »

Good article that hits a lot of points that I have thought about over the past 3 or 4 years.

I will be interested in any discussion but, as the article discusses, I am loath to really engage because even in the haven of reasonableness that is OO there is risk of being seen as difficult, out of touch, or simply that guy who is too focused on details and context instead of just mouthing the blandly correct words and moving on.
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Re: Social Media Mob Justice

Post by malchior »

That's the problem in a nutshell. On a personal note I've seen bad things happen to several people in my personal orbit vis a vis failing to walk on the eggshells. I saw a guy have his refereeing certification stripped because someone didn't like how he talked to women. I witnessed some of that directly. My opinion is he is just bad with people but it got spun into some misogyny drama. He is unpopular and it's easy to take out people who aren't in the group. The whole was pure star chamber stuff. He had an entire complaint go through a resolution process tnat he didn't know about and was only told about after the fact. Just as the article mentioned. It was ridiculous.

Applebaum also tied in the workplace culture stuff and was something I hadn't considered. I had that forehead slap moment reading it because part of the reason I left my last job was because the inmates started running the asylum.

Around the time I left at end of year, there was no joke at any time a half dozen investigations open with HR. These kids would be complaining about everything. Someone said something mean in front of people, someone was unprofessional, blah blah blah. I avoided giving feedback outside my close circle of people because it was not worth it. I don't know how things will turn out but things are trending bad like every other front.
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Re: Social Media Mob Justice

Post by Zarathud »

Back in the day, you weren’t just cancelled. You were burned at the stake.
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Re: Social Media Mob Justice

Post by Little Raven »

Sometimes advocates of the new mob justice claim that these are minor punishments, that the loss of a job is not serious, that people should be able to accept their situation and move on. But isolation plus public shaming plus loss of income are severe sanctions for adults, with long-term personal and psychological repercussions—especially because the “sentences” in these cases are of indeterminate length. Elliott contemplated suicide, and has written that “every first-hand account I’ve read of public shaming—and I’ve read more than my share—includes thoughts of suicide.” Massey did too: “I had a plan and the means to execute it; I then had a panic attack and took a cab to the ER.” David Bucci, the former chair of the Dartmouth brain-sciences department, who was named in a lawsuit against the college though he was not accused of any sexual misconduct, did kill himself after he realized he might never be able to restore his reputation.
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Re: Social Media Mob Justice

Post by Isgrimnur »

Zarathud wrote: Wed Sep 01, 2021 10:46 pm Back in the day, you weren’t just cancelled. You were burned at the stake.
HEY!

You could also be tarred and feathered and/or run out of town on a rail.
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Re: Social Media Mob Justice

Post by Kraken »

One of Wife's colleagues, and someone I've known distantly for decades, got taken out of his professorship last year for using a trigger word in the classroom. He used a historical quote that emphasized whatever point he was making, but context doesn't matter anymore and one of his snowflakes melted down. Hundreds of outsiders who didn't know him and hadn't taken his class flooded social media with unkind opinions. He lost his job and his reputation.

The irony is that his naughty word was homophobic, yet he's an obviously gay man.
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YellowKing
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Re: Social Media Mob Justice

Post by YellowKing »

I posted this in another thread in EBG, but I have a friend who lost his job because he appeared on another one of my friend's podcasts. This podcast is "shock jock" style so there's cussing, sexual references, etc. It's obviously done for comedic effect and there's nothing in it that is racist, homophobic, etc. (quite to the contrary, the host is an extremely liberal gay man).

However, someone ran across his appearance on it, reported it to his employer, and suddenly he found out not only was he being fired, but they were investigating him for child endangerment because his son had a voice clip on the podcast. (This clip was recorded completely separately and edited in, but the "whistleblower" tried to imply the kid was in the room with him during the recording). This led to him almost having his wife leave him. All because of one 30 minute appearance on a podcast he was doing to help a buddy out who needed a guest.

He wound up cutting off all contact to his friends in our social circle, gave up his major hobby that this podcast was related to, and is currently working to rebuild his life back. It's incredibly sad, because this guy was a GOOD person. I've known him for years, I know how he treats his wife and kids, and he's incredibly generous and kind. And all it took to destroy him was one asshole tattle-tale to raise a fuss about him doing something in his private life.
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Re: Social Media Mob Justice

Post by dbt1949 »

And I have seen it here in the past. Think of some of those people who have been banned. It's been a while and I can't remember their names. But Id say they fit into the subject of this thread.
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Re: Social Media Mob Justice

Post by msteelers »

I think a lot of people fail to realize that what they say matters. "I was just joking!" is really only a good defense for a professional comedian. I remember listening to Joe Buck on I think Jay Mohr's podcast several years ago. Jay was trying to get him to curse throughout the entire show, and Joe said something along the lines of "look, I'm not about to risk my career over this." Would Joe Buck dropping an f-bomb on a podcast be enough to jeopardize his career? Probably not. But he knew that what he said on that show would matter.

When I was covering high school sports, one of the constant messages I saw from coaches and recruiters was that the students needed to think about what they posted to social media. That the way they conducted themselves in public would have an impact on their lives. With everyone now trying to be a celebrity via TikTok/podcast/whatever, I think it's a message everyone needs to learn. Unfortunately, some are learning the hard way.
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Re: Social Media Mob Justice

Post by YellowKing »

While I do understand that the "new reality" is that everyone should watch what they post on social media, I also think it's a damn shame that a young person can't be themselves online without fear that the morality police are going to beat their door down and ruin their lives. That's not right. At some point the punishment FAR outweighs the crime, particularly when the same people who are hurling accusations are not without sin themselves.

And it's particularly galling when we can seemingly allow our politicians to get away with sexual abuse, rape, child porn, and every other sin imaginable but we'll ruin a college kid's entire future because he said a racial slur on a video when he was 12 years old.
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Re: Social Media Mob Justice

Post by msteelers »

YellowKing wrote: Thu Sep 02, 2021 11:09 am While I do understand that the "new reality" is that everyone should watch what they post on social media, I also think it's a damn shame that a young person can't be themselves online without fear that the morality police are going to beat their door down and ruin their lives. That's not right. At some point the punishment FAR outweighs the crime, particularly when the same people who are hurling accusations are not without sin themselves.
I wouldn't equate college football coaches to the morality police.
And it's particularly galling when we can seemingly allow our politicians to get away with sexual abuse, rape, child porn, and every other sin imaginable but we'll ruin a college kid's entire future because he said a racial slur on a video when he was 12 years old.
This is America. The rich and powerful have always played by another set of rules. Of course it's wrong, but the rules haven't really changed. The big change is that we've (willingly) made way more of our lives public now.
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Re: Social Media Mob Justice

Post by Kurth »

That was fucking depressing. And spot on.

Earlier this week, I stumbled upon a Twitter thread with some Grade-A woke, cancel culture public shaming going on.

Long story short, a woman had found some notes she took on her phone about a very bad, very strange date she went on a while back. She’s a writer, and writers write, so she converted the notes into a series of funny tweets. They were humorous, but not in a biting or mocking kind of way. The tweets were more set up as a mystery as she described her date’s increasingly strange behavior and posited possible reasons for it. Her conclusion was that his behavior was most likely the result of alcohol/drugs. She wasn’t mean to him, and, in fact, in the end, gave him a ride home.

People went absolutely ape shit on her. Based on their analysis that the bad date in question was obviously autistic or “on the spectrum” based on her description of the date, they attacked her as ableist and cruel and a bully. The thing went viral and these woke warriors just unloaded on this woman.

Sad state of affairs.
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Re: Social Media Mob Justice

Post by Unagi »

I'll take your word for it, but that could be the kind of thing that would depend on what kind of liberties she took or lines she crossed (IMO). I mean, to be clear, I'm sure some autistic people (if, for instance, it was totally clear that is what she was trying to present) wouldn't like to be compared to drug-users, etc.

That being said, it sounds like you feel she wasn't doing that at all, etc. So - yeah, that would suck.
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Re: Social Media Mob Justice

Post by Blackhawk »

Thanks for posting the link.

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Re: Social Media Mob Justice

Post by gbasden »

There are obviously significant problems with the current culture, in many ways. I don't think that in general people should lose their jobs without evidence of significant harassment. I am also glad that I don't have to put up with my boss making bigoted homophobic jokes like I did when I first started my working life. There has to be a balance, somewhere. I'm personally at a point where I am not willing to interact with people who display racism or sexism openly. Is that cancelling them? I don't really care if it is - my mental health requires it. On the flip side, ostracizing people for isolated remarks from years ago is awful. People should be able to learn and grow.

It's complicated, and it always has been. I'm personally glad that the balance is shifted so that women don't have to put up with harassment in the workplace. But there are undoubtably people who have gotten unfairly chewed up by the system protecting those same women.
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Post by Anonymous Bosch »

I forget who shared it, but Australian singer, songwriter, and actor Nick Cave provides an apt description of cancel culture:
Nick Cave wrote:"As far as I can see, cancel culture is mercy’s antithesis. Political correctness has grown to become the unhappiest religion in the world. Its once honourable attempt to reimagine our society in a more equitable way now embodies all the worst aspects that religion has to offer (and none of the beauty) — moral certainty and self-righteousness shorn even of the capacity for redemption. It has become quite literally, bad religion run amuck."
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Re: Social Media Mob Justice

Post by Combustible Lemur »

gbasden wrote:There are obviously significant problems with the current culture, in many ways. I don't think that in general people should lose their jobs without evidence of significant harassment. I am also glad that I don't have to put up with my boss making bigoted homophobic jokes like I did when I first started my working life. There has to be a balance, somewhere. I'm personally at a point where I am not willing to interact with people who display racism or sexism openly. Is that cancelling them? I don't really care if it is - my mental health requires it. On the flip side, ostracizing people for isolated remarks from years ago is awful. People should be able to learn and grow.

It's complicated, and it always has been. I'm personally glad that the balance is shifted so that women don't have to put up with harassment in the workplace. But there are undoubtably people who have gotten unfairly chewed up by the system protecting those same women.
While I generally agree with all of this. I think it's conflates two things that liberal media/ Twitter spher has conflated alot lately. Accountability (long overdue and appropriate) and a class of attention/ grievance entitlement hunters who go out of their way to attack perceived injustice regardless of context. It's why it's easy to wave off whistle blowers and victims of REAL cancel culture as deniers of the also REAL accountability movement. I think they're two distinct things. Entire industries that have traditionally been aligned with social accountability and self examination are now twisted in contortions to appease cancel culture. Comedy and academia. The Altantic article makes very good analysis of the situation.

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Re: Social Media Mob Justice

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Unagi wrote: Thu Sep 02, 2021 4:27 pm I'll take your word for it, but that could be the kind of thing that would depend on what kind of liberties she took or lines she crossed (IMO). I mean, to be clear, I'm sure some autistic people (if, for instance, it was totally clear that is what she was trying to present) wouldn't like to be compared to drug-users, etc.

That being said, it sounds like you feel she wasn't doing that at all, etc. So - yeah, that would suck.
I realize that example is probably hard to process unless you read through her tweets about the date. In an attempt to make it clearer, (1) she never used the word autistic or autism nor implied that he had any kind of disability; (2) she appears to have been genuinely skeptical and surprised that people thought that was the issue with her date; (3) when it was suggested that the guy had autism, she apologized if her tweets offended anyone and made clear that she would have never posted them if she thought her date was suffering from any disability, apart from a really eccentric personality or a self-inflicted one based on substances; and (4) she tried to delete the tweets once people told her that what she was describing sounded to them like autism.

Just as malchior's article described, the explanation and apology and deletion didn't do her a bit of good in most of these peoples' eyes. The knives were already out . . .

Also, I get some of the sentiment that gbasden is expressing, and I am also glad the balance has shifted so that women (and others) don't have to put up with harassment in the workplace. But I think we're in dangerous territory when our reaction to some of this stuff is an "ends justify the means" shrug.

We should be able to protect people from harassment and shift the societal moral framework without sacrificing due process, presumed innocence, and many of the other fundamental goods that our supposed to be bedrock principles in this country.
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Re: Social Media Mob Justice

Post by Combustible Lemur »

Kurth wrote:
Unagi wrote: Thu Sep 02, 2021 4:27 pm I'll take your word for it, but that could be the kind of thing that would depend on what kind of liberties she took or lines she crossed (IMO). I mean, to be clear, I'm sure some autistic people (if, for instance, it was totally clear that is what she was trying to present) wouldn't like to be compared to drug-users, etc.

That being said, it sounds like you feel she wasn't doing that at all, etc. So - yeah, that would suck.
I realize that example is probably hard to process unless you read through her tweets about the date. In an attempt to make it clearer, (1) she never used the word autistic or autism nor implied that he had any kind of disability; (2) she appears to have been genuinely skeptical and surprised that people thought that was the issue with her date; (3) when it was suggested that the guy had autism, she apologized if her tweets offended anyone and made clear that she would have never posted them if she thought her date was suffering from any disability, apart from a really eccentric personality or a self-inflicted one based on substances; and (4) she tried to delete the tweets once people told her that what she was describing sounded to them like autism.

Just as malchior's article described, the explanation and apology and deletion didn't do her a bit of good in most of these peoples' eyes. The knives were already out . . .

Also, I get some of the sentiment that gbasden is expressing, and I am also glad the balance has shifted so that women (and others) don't have to put up with harassment in the workplace. But I think we're in dangerous territory when our reaction to some of this stuff is an "ends justify the means" shrug.

We should be able to protect people from harassment and shift the societal moral framework without sacrificing due process, presumed innocence, and many of the other fundamental goods that our supposed to be bedrock principles in this country.
Something tangentially interesting here. Is alot of misunderstanding of autism and strikes to the opposite of mercy idea.

The spectrum is just that, a huge spectrum. The longer I teach the more kids on the spectrum come through. Quite a few, the average person (read: me prior to the experience and reports) wouldn't recognize them as having any kind of autism beyond distinct personality traits. So the idea that there is overlap between negatively received behavior of a variety of types of mild autism is way more common than many would imagine.
As such, ripping into someone for responding in a flippant manner to someone who might possibly be on the spectrum is grossly unempathetic and counter to the behavior you want out of someone dealing with people who have autism. What better way to make people feel abnormal than refusing to let them have normal interactions and social difficulties.

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Re: Social Media Mob Justice

Post by Madmarcus »

msteelers wrote: Thu Sep 02, 2021 12:32 pm The big change is that we've (willingly) made way more of our lives public now.
That was my take for a good while. But I have become less convinced that it is a willing situation. As the article mentioned the ubiquitous nature of recordings, the willingness to drag up past offenses even when they might have been less offensive in their own time, and the rush to judgement without regards for context have changed things. The distinction between public and private has blurred. The distinction between spontaneous and planned has blurred.
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Re: Social Media Mob Justice

Post by Madmarcus »

Combustible Lemur wrote: Thu Sep 02, 2021 6:56 pm As such, ripping into someone for responding in a flippant manner to someone who might possibly be on the spectrum is grossly unempathetic and counter to the behavior you want out of someone dealing with people who have autism. What better way to make people feel abnormal than refusing to let them have normal interactions and social difficulties.
Amen
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Re: Social Media Mob Justice

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Anonymous Bosch wrote: Thu Sep 02, 2021 6:34 pm I forget who shared it, but Australian singer, songwriter, and actor Nick Cave provides an apt description of cancel culture:
Nick Cave wrote:"As far as I can see, cancel culture is mercy’s antithesis. Political correctness has grown to become the unhappiest religion in the world. Its once honourable attempt to reimagine our society in a more equitable way now embodies all the worst aspects that religion has to offer (and none of the beauty) — moral certainty and self-righteousness shorn even of the capacity for redemption. It has become quite literally, bad religion run amuck."
In a different context I was introduced to the difference in thinking in Protestant versus Catholic world views and this is very similar. The idea was that the Catholic view is we are all unable to live up to the ideal so we must repent. The flip side is that repentance is accepted. As opposed to the Protestant moral certainty and self righteous punishment of those we do not pass muster. It seems to have some application in the current discussion.
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Re: Social Media Mob Justice

Post by Unagi »

First, please please understand I am not trying to come down on you for this. (totally not directed at you, but I think you/ or others can learn from it)...
Kurth wrote: Thu Sep 02, 2021 6:42 pm (1) she never used the word autistic or autism nor implied that he had any kind of disability;
If I am to give her credit/praise, or trying to highlight her horribleness - this isn't a win or a loss.... Maybe a win, in that if she had done this, she would perhaps deserve what ever she got from those willing to confront her stance.
Kurth wrote: Thu Sep 02, 2021 6:42 pm (2) she appears to have been genuinely skeptical and surprised that people thought that was the issue with her date;
That's the most redeeming part of this story. I give a huge (HUGE) amount of credit to anyone that is just caught off-guard by this 'topic', that isn't a part of the whole world. And in the end, honestly, this is the main thing that I feel earns this person a total and complete pass on all of this...
Kurth wrote: Thu Sep 02, 2021 6:42 pm (3) when it was suggested that the guy had autism, she apologized if her tweets offended anyone and made clear that she would have never posted them if she thought her date was suffering from any disability, apart from a really eccentric personality or a self-inflicted one based on substances; and
/deep breath....OUCH.

That statement is actually way more problematic than you may think (I assume).
This is a point my 'highly functional' (clinical term, not parental praise - believe me....) autistic child (14yrs old) has demonstrated time and time again, and has articulated very well to our family and anyone that will listen to em... :
:: They --in no way-- feel that they have a disability nor want to be cured, fixed, or looked at as inferior/depleted/or broken. It is terrifying to them to think that we feel that way. Imagine landing on an alien planet, only to find that the sentient species there finds your way of thinking and approaching the world is wrong and must be corrected.

[total aside: I say 'they' to try to honor their non-binary identification, but I may slip... I, in no way, mean to imply that all autistic people feel exactly the way my child does. So, 'they' does not mean all autistic people... and to be even more clear: as the saying goes: If you've met one person with autism, you've met one person with autism.]

In any case, they feel very comfortable being who they are and cannot stand the rest of us 'neuro-typical' people and all the things we find critically important, but understand they are on a planet filled with "us" and need to blend in.

So, in saying 'disability' she may have actually earned more wrath that she had before.
Kurth wrote: Thu Sep 02, 2021 6:42 pm (4) she tried to delete the tweets once people told her that what she was describing sounded to them like autism.
Back to part 2, again, I'm compelled to feel she just got caught up in this. I have no idea if her date was with an autistic person. Certainly kills me (inside) to think she did (mainly because for an autistic person to "date" is an enormous accomplishment, and to think that individual needed to see their date paraded/described online like this -kills me-.

Kurth wrote: Thu Sep 02, 2021 6:42 pm Just as malchior's article described, the explanation and apology and deletion didn't do her a bit of good in most of these peoples' eyes. The knives were already out . . .
That's disappointing, for all parties. I'd have liked someone to understand both sides of this and helped everyone.
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Re: Social Media Mob Justice

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Anonymous Bosch wrote: Thu Sep 02, 2021 6:34 pm I forget who shared it, but Australian singer, songwriter, and actor Nick Cave provides an apt description of cancel culture:
Nick Cave wrote:"As far as I can see, cancel culture is mercy’s antithesis. Political correctness has grown to become the unhappiest religion in the world. Its once honourable attempt to reimagine our society in a more equitable way now embodies all the worst aspects that religion has to offer (and none of the beauty) — moral certainty and self-righteousness shorn even of the capacity for redemption. It has become quite literally, bad religion run amuck."
Just an aside: I am a huge Nick Cave fan. His Red Hand Files site is an absolute treasure trove of humanity and brilliance.
He won. Period.
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Re: Social Media Mob Justice

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Re: Social Media Mob Justice

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People thought that? I would’ve assumed most mistakenly thought he wrote it for Scream.

P.S. Papa Won’t Leave You, Henry is my choice. Although almost everything he does is amazing.
Last edited by hepcat on Thu Sep 02, 2021 9:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
He won. Period.
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Isgrimnur
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Re: Social Media Mob Justice

Post by Isgrimnur »

hepcat wrote: Thu Sep 02, 2021 9:18 pm People thought that? I would’ve assumed most mistakenly thought he wrote it for Scream.
Scream is 25 years old. There's an entire generation that have been born and come to adulthood since then.

It's almost as if people are the problem.
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Re: Social Media Mob Justice

Post by Blackhawk »

Combustible Lemur wrote: Thu Sep 02, 2021 6:56 pm So the idea that there is overlap between negatively received behavior of a variety of types of mild autism is way more common than many would imagine.

As such, ripping into someone for responding in a flippant manner to someone who might possibly be on the spectrum is grossly unempathetic and counter to the behavior you want out of someone dealing with people who have autism. What better way to make people feel abnormal than refusing to let them have normal interactions and social difficulties.
Keeping in mind that all autists are different...

It happens all the time. Autistic people tend to think differently. Without going into all of the details (and keeping in mind that it varies between individuals), we miss social cues. We misunderstand intent. We think literally, which often means that we don't recognize when someone is joking, serious, upset, sarcastic, or complimenting us, as all of those can use the exact same set of words. We have to guess, and we often guess wrong. It also means that we tend to be very to the point. (Yes, the dress makes you look fat. Why do you ask?) We're often blind to facial expression and body language. We have trouble recognizing emotions in others (we recognize they have emotions, the same ones as us, but we can't tell which ones they're feeling the way normal people do.) Related to the previous two, we often don't express our own emotions visibly, which makes us seem cold and uncaring. Our thought process tends to be more internal, and when we're focused on that, it feels like we're ignoring you (we're not, we're probably completely unaware of you.)

Autistic people are often seen by those who don't know we're autistic as rude, offensive, cold, unfriendly, uncaring, oblivious, and unthinking. We're not - we're trying to do just the opposite, but often misjudge how we're expected to go about it. Offering comfort for a joke. Taking offense at a compliment because we thought it was sarcasm (I've done this - "Nice shirt" can have so many meanings.) Not knowing how to react to someone else's bad news or to a pleasant surprise (ask me how much I hate surprise in-person gifts), so people think we're ungrateful.

But having been diagnosed autistic for close to 20 years, plus having raised an autistic child through school, all the time spent reading on the subject, time spent with doctors, therapists, teachers, and specialists, I have noticed a few other things about autistic people.

First, we don't see autism as an excuse for rudeness. The truth is that most autistic people who function within society work hard to be not be seen that way. We really care about people, and don't like being selfish or offensive. But it is like travelling to a foreign nation with a culture that is absolutely packed with social rules, taboos, and traditions, and trying to fit in. You're going to make mistakes - to continue that metaphor, you're going to want to compliment that Iraqi man and give him a thumbs-up - and not understand why people reacted the way you did. You did something you thought was nice, something to try and fit in, and it pissed people off. And that is all those people remember. But you are aware that it is you in their society, and you probably made a mistake. So you learn, and eventually you're consciously keeping track of everything you do in every exchange when for other people it is instinctive, and it is exhausting. And after a while, you either get tired, or you relax too much and slip, and you have to start all over again.

And people wonder why we avoid big social gatherings, or need to take a breather during them.

It's why so many autistic people hate when Sheldon from The Big Bang Theory is used as an example of autism. His whole schtick was that he was rude and selfish, but he was autistic, so that made it ok. Bullshit. People can be autistic and be dicks, too. He was just a dick who used autism (unofficially) as an excuse for being a dick. We work, and hard, to be his opposite, and people pointing to him as a comparison is really a huge 'fuck you' to all that work.

So, if you have a conversation with an autistic person, remember that for them, it's like juggling on a unicycle over a pit of sharks. And if they drop a ball, try to remember that they're juggling on a unicycle just to be nice to you.

tl;dr - Anyway, back the on-topic bit:

Autistic people do sometimes come across as rude, or blunt, or eccentric. But we don't expect the rest of the world to be psychiatrists. We (most of us) don't walk around with badges declaring that we're autistic, so why would the average person be expected to know and give us a pass for our behavior? There have been very rare times when I've made a misstep and have apologized and mentioned my autism (not as an excuse, but as part of an explanation that I didn't mean to offend), but if I walk up to a cashier or go on a blind date and do entirely the wrong thing, I don't expect them to magically know I'm autistic and brush it off. I expect them to react the same way they would to anybody else. It's not their job to account for a neurological difference they didn't know existed.
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Re: Social Media Mob Justice

Post by Blackhawk »

Unagi wrote: Thu Sep 02, 2021 7:59 pm
:: They --in no way-- feel that they have a disability nor want to be cured, fixed, or looked at as inferior/depleted/or broken. It is terrifying to them to think that we feel that way. Imagine landing on an alien planet, only to find that the sentient species there finds your way of thinking and approaching the world is wrong and must be corrected.
Absotively. We may not always fit in (it's up to us to decide when, how often, or if we want to try), but that doesn't mean we're broken. We're decidedly different, but different isn't wrong. Autism has plenty of weaknesses associated with it, but it also has a set of strengths. And being neurotypical (normal-brained) has its own set of weaknesses that go along with it - people just don't notice those, as they're seen as universal and normal.

The best metaphor I've found for how autistic see the world, and would prefer that the world see them, is Spock. Spock was different. His psychology was different, his thought process was different, his emotional responses were different. Spock didn't fit in. There were times when Spock changed his behavior to better work with humans, but he did that to facilitate interaction, not because his way was wrong. And the humans (McCoy aside) didn't try to tell Spock that he was wrong for being Vulcan. Instead, they accepted each other, and were more successful because any particular challenge they needed to overcome had both human and Vulcan strengths to counter it. And any problem that needed to be solved had both ways of thinking applied to getting a solution.

Industry has figured this out, with tech firms and companies who rely on innovation actively seeking out autists for their teams, as it gives them a broader base of abilities when approaching problems.

Don't say we're defective because we're different. Say that our differences are an advantage, being aware that our problems are the trade-off. Just like yours are.
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Re: Social Media Mob Justice

Post by Combustible Lemur »

Blackhawk wrote:
Unagi wrote: Thu Sep 02, 2021 7:59 pm
:: They --in no way-- feel that they have a disability nor want to be cured, fixed, or looked at as inferior/depleted/or broken. It is terrifying to them to think that we feel that way. Imagine landing on an alien planet, only to find that the sentient species there finds your way of thinking and approaching the world is wrong and must be corrected.
Absotively. We may not always fit in (it's up to us to decide when, how often, or if we want to try), but that doesn't mean we're broken. We're decidedly different, but different isn't wrong. Autism has plenty of weaknesses associated with it, but it also has a set of strengths. And being neurotypical (normal-brained) has its own set of weaknesses that go along with it - people just don't notice those, as they're seen as universal and normal.

The best metaphor I've found for how autistic see the world, and would prefer that the world see them, is Spock. Spock was different. His psychology was different, his thought process was different, his emotional responses were different. Spock didn't fit in. There were times when Spock changed his behavior to better work with humans, but he did that to facilitate interaction, not because his way was wrong. And the humans (McCoy aside) didn't try to tell Spock that he was wrong for being Vulcan. Instead, they accepted each other, and were more successful because any particular challenge they needed to overcome had both human and Vulcan strengths to counter it. And any problem that needed to be solved had both ways of thinking applied to getting a solution.

Industry has figured this out, with tech firms and companies who rely on innovation actively seeking out autists for their teams, as it gives them a broader base of abilities when approaching problems.

Don't say we're defective because we're different. Say that our differences are an advantage, being aware that our problems are the trade-off. Just like yours are.
Thank you for that.


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Re: Social Media Mob Justice

Post by Kurth »

I think this autism discussion is really interesting and informative, and I appreciate the comments from Blackhawk and Unagi. But I don’t want to completely derail the original thread.

I’ll just say, in the end, I think what I hear you both saying is that autistic people really want to just be treated like everyone else for the most part. Be kind. Assume good intentions until proven otherwise. Hold them accountable if they go off the rails, but give the benefit of the doubt and maybe a little slack from time to time.

The problem with the screaming mob here was that they were coming after someone who really appears to have meant no harm and, honestly, was pretty in line with the principles stated above. They wanted her blood for being an ableist who failed to recognize autism in her date.

(I should add that when it went viral, many in the thread posted that they are autistic, that it’s not a sin to fail to recognize when someone else is, and even if you know someone else is autistic, they shouldn’t be getting a pass for bad behavior.)
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Re: Social Media Mob Justice

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A big problem is the call for blood was based on an assumption that her date was autistic. But also this scenario demonstrates the inadvisability of publicly documenting anybody's shortcomings. Even for comic effect. Maybe stand up comedians can get away with it. Maybe.
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Re: Social Media Mob Justice

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Jaymann wrote: Fri Sep 03, 2021 2:18 pm A big problem is the call for blood was based on an assumption that her date was autistic. But also this scenario demonstrates the inadvisability of publicly documenting anybody's shortcomings. Even for comic effect. Maybe stand up comedians can get away with it. Maybe.
Again, I think this was a poor example because it doesn’t really translate well unless you read her tweets. They weren’t cruel or mean spirited. She was more posting to share how crazy it is being a single woman trying to date.

But, to your point, I would say the scenario definitely highlights the inadvisability of publicly sharing anything these days.
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Re: Social Media Mob Justice

Post by Unagi »

Perhaps part of this is the nature of it all, sorta being a perfect storm... Here she is, a writer, in her element (tweeting, in a clever way) and discussing in a light and easy way how this social moment was 'so hard', when other people realized that her date was probably going through even more of a nightmare than her and would never be able to express their night quite like her, and they didn't want her to get away with that.

You have a writer, writing about her socially awkward date with... someone that should not be shamed for their socially awkwardness, all the while the nature of her writing was on the level of asking for sympathy for what she went through.
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Re: Social Media Mob Justice

Post by Kurth »

I think that probably nails it, Unagi.
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Re: Social Media Mob Justice

Post by gbasden »

Kurth wrote: Fri Sep 03, 2021 5:52 pm I think that probably nails it, Unagi.
Most probably so.
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Re: Social Media Mob Justice

Post by Carpet_pissr »

I wonder if there would have been blowback if the date was ‘socially awkward’ vs ALLEGEDLY autistic?

If I understood correctly, no one knows if the date was actually autistic or not, right?
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