Lies and the Lying Liars that Tell Them

[Kurth]

I've been thinking lately about how off the rails things are these days. I'm less optimistic about our society (maybe our species) than I have been in some time, and I think that's largely attributable to my sense that people have lost the ability or the care to discern between truth and lies.

I was on a run this morning and thought back to when I was a kid with my mother at the grocery store. I remember reading the headlines of the tabloids in the checkout aisle and asking her how they could report such clear and obvious lies about aliens impregnating celebrities and what not. She explained that every now and then, one of them would step over a line and get sued for defamation, but largely, no one really cared because everyone knew what they were getting. She said that checking out in the grocery store is no fun, but reading the ridiculous tabloid headlines was a distraction people enjoyed.

That made sense to me at the time, but I still thought it was odd that adults would permit other adults to publish lies and make them look like news.

Fast forward to today, and I feel like we are literally bombarded with lies. They come at us from every possible angle.

Every day, I get at least two or three telemarketer robocalls calls to my cell phone informing me that the IRS has opened an audit of my taxes and I need to respond immediately. Or a criminal complaint has been filed against me in some far off jurisdiction and I risk jail if I don't hit pound to speak with a representative. Of there's a once and a lifetime opportunity to refinance my undergraduate student loans (I no longer have undergraduate student loans) at a crazy low rate.

And setting aside robocalls and telemarketers, it's virtually impossible to open up a web browser and not be inundated with lies. Absurd, ridiculous lies, that make you think, "Who could possibly click on that," but then you realize that the answer is . . . lots of people. Cause that's the business model, and it wouldn't be a business model that continued if lots of people weren't reading those absurd lies and clicking on those links.

Example: Reading a random story on CNN right now about Broward County pushing back against Desantis and his stupid no mask mandate policies, these are all ads that CNN served up to me:





I haven't clicked on those links, and maybe someone will prove me wrong but I'm pretty sure those are all lies. There's no magic treatment for moles or skin tags. Those aren't historical pictures. That's definitely not Floyd Mayweather's jet. I'm pretty sure that woman at the airport has nothing to do with any sign about someone's affair.

Another: Reading about MTG's latest batshit crazy anti-vax crap on MSNBC just now provides me with these ads:





Again, I haven't gone down the rabbit hole, but I'm pretty sure the U.S.'s latest attack submarine doesn't have a swimming pool on the deck, there's no good reason to put a bag over your mirror when driving alone, and there's really no new program to pay off my home if I lived in Washington.

Fox is no better, obviously. And let's not even start on what Facebook and other social media platforms serve up.

So, now we're at a point where the lies are no longer sequestered in the check-out aisle of the grocery store. We're under siege every day. Many of us are able to discern truth from lie and care enough to do so, but many others either can't or don't. For many, I think there's an ever growing sense that they can't trust anything they see, so they'll just take as truth the things they want to believe.

And maybe that's, at least in part, why we're where we are with so many people in leadership willing to peddle outright lies. Given the banality of lying these days, is it surprising that politicians have no shame in selling lies to their base when they know the lies they are selling are the lies their base want to buy?

Makes me wonder why we, as a society, allow the common, everyday lying to go on. Don't we have bodies like the FTC that should be regulating things to some extent? I know that kind of runs contrary to my general anti-censorship standpoint, but

Anyway, sorry for the long rant. Just wanted to vent a little.

[Drazzil]

If it makes you feel better, I almost fell for an automated call that coincidently came in proposing to be from the same tax service that I had an audit, the same day I filed. I listened for about 30 seconds and thought to myself, "Wait a minute...." Lemme find an official number and call the filing service back.

[Drazzil]

I knew the SHTF when Bush was able to screw Gore out of an election around 2000. I gave up on my country right around the time I realized Obama appointed the Citigroup to his cabinet and that the middle class was dead. I realized America was doomed right around the time the Dem's turned into a circular firing squad right around the time they gained the majority and that the man of principle and the reformer we elected was an empty suit. I realized the species was doomed about five years ago. Like straight up fucking done. The boiling frogs are gonna be complacent right up to the end. America's a country full of peasants, the world is basically the same.

Stick a fork in us we're done. There's no coming back from all this idiocy. Nothing that happened since has given me any more then a small glimmer of hope. The OWS had promise but was crushed, because people didn't fight back. BLM was crushed as well. People don't wanna fight back because they're easily fooled sheep.

Throw up Netflix and dancing with the stars and keep us running on the hamster wheel and we're too stupid to figure out we're dying slowly.

[stessier]

Again, I haven't gone down the rabbit hole, but I'm pretty sure the U.S.'s latest attack submarine doesn't have a swimming pool on the deck, there's no good reason to put a bag over your mirror when driving alone, and there's really no new program to pay off my home if I lived in Washington.

Are those lies, or just misleading? How are they at all different than a tv ad showing beautiful people drinking beer on the beach?

That attack sub leads to an article that discusses what a new stealth submarine would be like. The article include a picture of that super yacht (described more in this video about the yacht itself), but never says it is the new sub in question but kind of indicates it is an example of new stealth tech.

There's a whole video on the mirror thing -12 minutes long - that never addresses the headline.

I couldn't find anything about the new home payment program, but the title uses "may" which is a get out of jail free card.

I agree people need to be taught critical thinking, but suggesting the FTC with it's limited resources get involved in policing this stuff is kind of nuts. There are real problems they can go after - I don't think clickbait rises to that level.

[dbt1949]

I have to think most of the crap coming out of republican mouths are lies. But they are lies that other republicans seem to believe. Trump voter fraud anyone?

[Blackhawk]

I think 'deception' would be a more accurate term when discussing ads, and that's for both the imagery and the copy. It's deliberately manipulating the reader into thinking one thing - usually something that will make them sit up and take notice - while the truth is something else. It's actually very similar to the misdirection tricks magicians use, manipulating human psychology to get them to believe what you want them to believe.

The bag on a mirror bit, FWIW (I got curious and went looking for the source) was an article/YouTube video with a bunch of handy driving tips, most of which are actually useful, like parking facing the sun on winter nights so the snow on the windshield melts. The bag was just the idea that putting a bag over your mirror before bed makes it easy to avoid iced up mirrors in the morning, which is true. The image they chose (bubble wrap and a steel cage) and the wording ("...when travelling alone") was chosen to make it sound and look like a safety issue, playing off of peoples' fear and paranoia to make them click the link, fearful that there might be some danger they were unaware of. Yeah, it's a good tip to put a bag over your mirror when you are travelling alone. That's not a lie. It's also a good idea when travelling with family. Or just parking at home. And a plastic shopping bag or ziploc does the trick just fine. But people won't click that link as often as if they think they're going to be murdered if they don't.

It's still lying... sort of. It's still dishonest as hell, and to be honest, I'd rather be lied to outright than manipulated to somebody else's ends. Any time I see an ad like that, it guarantees I won't follow up on it.

[Kraken]

My Google News feed routinely shows headlines saying “No, (x) didn’t happen,” or “No, Biden didn’t say (y),” or “No, vaccines won’t cause (z),” and these statements are often so ridiculous that I can’t believe anyone takes them seriously. (The headlines link to Snopes and other, similar debunking sites.) When the same claims cross my Facebook feed, they’re framed as “Did (x) happen?”, “Did Biden say (y)? or “Do vaccines cause (z)?”, requiring one to click through to find out. They often go to the same sources with the same info…but if one doesn’t click through, the headlines leave the questions open, raising the prospect that one will only remember reading somewhere that Biden said (y).

[malchior]

IMO much of this is lying and not misleading which is really a degree of the same thing really. Most of this is simply response to a demand for a product. People want to buy lies. This is much more for American people who are descended from generations of fantasists. As an aside, if you want to know where this all comes from, run do not walk to read Fantasyland. It nicely frames out this entire thread IMO.

Folks here love being let in on 'deep dark secrets'. Or led on a chase to the next 'truth'. This is what drives QAnon, flat-earthers, 9/11 truthers, birtherists, cultists, and large portions of our population. Think of all the myths we are told about our nation. They are starting to unravel just a little bit and people are losing their minds about it as it intersects with fantasies about racial identity, economic equality, and justice that are all lies.

[stessier]

Folks here love being let in on 'deep dark secrets'. Or led on a chase to the next 'truth'. This is what drives QAnon, flat-earthers, 9/11 truthers, birtherists, cultists, and large portions of our population. Think of all the myths we are told about our nation. They are starting to unravel just a little bit and people are losing their minds about it as it intersects with fantasies about racial identity, economic equality, and justice that are all lies.

I agree with all that, but I don't think it is unique to us.

[malchior]

Folks here love being let in on 'deep dark secrets'. Or led on a chase to the next 'truth'. This is what drives QAnon, flat-earthers, 9/11 truthers, birtherists, cultists, and large portions of our population. Think of all the myths we are told about our nation. They are starting to unravel just a little bit and people are losing their minds about it as it intersects with fantasies about racial identity, economic equality, and justice that are all lies.

I agree with all that, but I don't think it is unique to us.

FWIW the book I mentioned talks about this and gives concrete examples how it is much, much more prevalent and effective here. Essentially it is in the DNA of the USA. It is what drove people to come here in the first place and then over time it was evergreen - new and better fantasies were created and drove progress here. They still do. People think they are more likely to be wealthy than broke for instance. Until they hit one of America's many gaps.

[stessier]

Folks here love being let in on 'deep dark secrets'. Or led on a chase to the next 'truth'. This is what drives QAnon, flat-earthers, 9/11 truthers, birtherists, cultists, and large portions of our population. Think of all the myths we are told about our nation. They are starting to unravel just a little bit and people are losing their minds about it as it intersects with fantasies about racial identity, economic equality, and justice that are all lies.

I agree with all that, but I don't think it is unique to us.

FWIW the book I mentioned talks about this and gives concrete examples how it is much, much more prevalent and effective here. Essentially it is in the DNA of the USA. It is what drove people to come here in the first place and then over time it was evergreen - new and better fantasies were created and drove progress here. They still do. People think they are more likely to be wealthy than broke for instance. Until they hit one of America's many gaps.

Ok, but more prevalent is not the same as unique. It might happen here more often, but it happens other places as well.

[malchior]

Ok, but more prevalent is not the same as unique. It might happen here more often, but it happens other places as well.

No disagreement here. I was more commenting on how it mattered even if it wasn't unique.

[Jaymann]

The lying that bothers me most is when they put a hot chick in the thumbnail for a video but she never shows up in the video. Ripoff!

[Little Raven]

We are indeed drowning in a sea of misinformation. But not because there's more of it - though there probably is. The problem is that its now targeted.

Tens of thousands of the smartest humans on the planet have spent millions of man hours writing algorithms designed with one purpose in mind - keep people engaged. They don't care how, only that people keep clicking. And it turns out there are two really good ways to do this:

• Tell people what they want to hear. Doesn't matter if its true.
• Tell people something that will make them mad. Doesn't matter if its true.

We've known this about people for quite a while. But now we've armed algorithms backed by datacenters full of processors with big data, allowing them to create tailor made feeds for every individual on the planet - and they are very, VERY good at their jobs. Nobody is immune. Everyone will fall for at least some of these things some of the time. A lot of people will fall for many of them much of the time. And a disturbingly large portion of the population will tumble into the well, embracing whatever fantasy is being peddled to them instead of reality.

Europe and the US currently have no answer to this problem. The only country I know of that has solved it is China, but I suspect most of us wouldn't like their solution.

[Kurth]

Definitely get the point about targeted media. That’s an issue, no doubt. But it’s not exactly what I’m getting at. The theory I’m floating is that the flood of outright lies/deception we’re swimming in today has broken down barriers. It’s made it easier for some to throw up their hands and say they can’t tell what’s true and what’s not. It’s made it acceptable for leaders to tell outright lies that never would have been tolerated previously.

I remember during the Gulf War when the Iraqi Minister of Information (aka Baghdad Bob) would give interviews telling preposterous lies and was roundly mocked for it. Now the same kind of stuff happens routinely in this country with no consequences whatsoever.

Why do we allow ourselves to be lied to?

Also, not for nothing, but this seems like the ultimate bi-partisan issue: If someone ran for office promising to do away with lying telemarketers and robo-callers, how could they possibly not get elected?

I’m going to read malchior’s “Fantasy Land” suggestion, but deep down, I don’t think people really want to be lied to. They don’t want to be manipulated. They don’t want to have their attention traded and sold by social media companies.

It’s fucked up that we’ve let that happen and just shrug it off. And while I realize the FTC is not the right body to expect to act on this (typo in my original post), why is this not the purview of the FCC:

The Federal Communications Commission regulates interstate and international communications by radio, television, wire, satellite, and cable in all 50 states, the District of Columbia and U.S. territories. An independent U.S. government agency overseen by Congress, the Commission is the federal agency responsible for implementing and enforcing America’s communications law and regulations.

[Carpet_pissr]

My Google News feed routinely shows headlines saying “No, (x) didn’t happen,” or “No, Biden didn’t say (y),” or “No, vaccines won’t cause (z),” and these statements are often so ridiculous that I can’t believe anyone takes them seriously. (The headlines link to Snopes and other, similar debunking sites.) When the same claims cross my Facebook feed, they’re framed as “Did (x) happen?”, “Did Biden say (y)? or “Do vaccines cause (z)?”, requiring one to click through to find out.

Highly recommend you use Google news without signing in. It makes a world of difference in terms of what you are fed, and improved my experience dramatically.

I don’t want to see or be led to just the stories that Google thinks/knows I will click on. That’s a big part of the problem IMO, and why ‘both sides’ are getting further entrenched in their positions and ideologies.

The more news they consume, the more they are fed ‘news from the echo chamber’.

[malchior]

I do a lot of random research both for myself and work. My tablet has a news feed for me everyday that I just clear out. It might as well be my Spotify playlist recommendations after a roller derby party.

I also get tons of ads for things I recommended to clients. The insidious part is when my wife is watching something on her Twitch account and the stream gets an ad for something *I* was researching. Talk about bullshit.

[malchior]

I’m going to read malchior’s “Fantasy Land” suggestion, but deep down, I don’t think people really want to be lied to. They don’t want to be manipulated. They don’t want to have their attention traded and sold by social media companies.

Quick caveat - it's a great book but Andersen sometimes is Tolkien level verbose. If you ever feel like, "YEAH I GET YOUR POINT MAN - I REALLY DO" you can usually safely skip to the next chapter.

[Blackhawk]

I’m going to read malchior’s “Fantasy Land” suggestion, but deep down, I don’t think people really want to be lied to. They don’t want to be manipulated.

People don't. But they also don't want to face unpleasant and uncomfortable truths, so they often accept the lies and manipulations.

No, you can't look like that. No, you can't avoid cancer. Yes, you will still die. No, you can't afford that. No, your beliefs were wrong. Yes, those old beliefs hurt people. No, getting rid of the fat is going to be a lot of hard work. No, you can't eat that and look like that, too. No, you can't get your hair back. No, you can't feel like you're 18 again. No, your opinion doesn't matter. No, you're not important. No, that beautiful vacation isn't without impact. Yes, maintaining this lifestyle will shorten your grandchildrens' lives.

The lies are so much easier. They don't require you to change, they don't cause you to suffer, they let you believe your wishes will come true, and they don't make you give up what you love.

[Kraken]

My Google News feed routinely shows headlines saying “No, (x) didn’t happen,” or “No, Biden didn’t say (y),” or “No, vaccines won’t cause (z),” and these statements are often so ridiculous that I can’t believe anyone takes them seriously. (The headlines link to Snopes and other, similar debunking sites.) When the same claims cross my Facebook feed, they’re framed as “Did (x) happen?”, “Did Biden say (y)? or “Do vaccines cause (z)?”, requiring one to click through to find out.

Highly recommend you use Google news without signing in. It makes a world of difference in terms of what you are fed, and improved my experience dramatically.

I don’t want to see or be led to just the stories that Google thinks/knows I will click on. That’s a big part of the problem IMO, and why ‘both sides’ are getting further entrenched in their positions and ideologies.

The more news they consume, the more they are fed ‘news from the echo chamber’.

I like the geotargeting. I don't often seek out local news unless it's in my feed...which it reliably is. Besides, I appreciate all the evidence that I'm right about everything.

[malchior]

After reviewing comments and footage today that I mentioned in the Afghanistan thread I have to admit I'm bit dismayed about the state of things. Biden is flat out lying about verifiable things like Trump did. And I can see why to an extent. Democratic party partisans are basically yelling #fakenews, talking about the military industrial complex (#mic), #globalinterventionalistpress, #isupportbiden, etc as a way to hand wave it away. I still believe people *WANT TO BE LIED TO*. They in fact demand and abet it. They are just rooting for the tribe. The politicians don't have to tell us to not to trust our lying eyes anymore. We have people willing to buy the lies, resell and retell the lies, and see the lies as true because it is what the tribe wants them to see. I can't help but feel like we're cooked.

[Isgrimnur]

I still believe people *WANT TO BE LIED TO*. They in fact demand and abet it.

No argument here.

[malchior]

IMO this is little different from what MAGA does to information sources that they don't like. Especially where they play it as criticism of Biden is support for endless war. That's just flat out dishonest reframing.

I have respect for Marshall even if sometimes he strapped on blinders and looked past Democratic party/leadership issues. That he is boosting a lightning rod like Yglesias is sad though. Yglesias got run out of at least two newsrooms now and retreated into substack/medium ignominy.