Should the Democrats get rid of the filibuster?

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Should the Democrats get rid of the filibuster?

Yes
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65%
No
8
16%
Not sure
9
18%
 
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Re: Should the Democrats get rid of the filibuster?

Post by YellowKing »

Pyperkub wrote:What's this FF quote from? I'm not familiar with it, and (per Starship Troopers) I want to know more
If they didn't say it, they should have said it so I could make a mildly amusing post on a message board 200+ years later.

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Re: Should the Democrats get rid of the filibuster?

Post by Smoove_B »

From Esquire, they asked Sinema's office for a single (just one) example of where the filibuster resulted in bipartisan comity.

Should I spoiler it?
Spoiler:
We'll update this if we get a response
These are the people with whom Sinema is going to find compromise on voting-rights legislation? They very likely won't even cooperate on an infrastructure bill, unless you think McConnell's obstruction pledge has an exemption for...a massive public-investment initiative that could define Biden's presidency. Get fucking real. Republicans already used gamesmanship to cover up just how much of a lowball their opening counteroffer on infrastructure was. Now they've got Senator Shelley Moore Capito at the White House conducting negotiations with the Biden folks as if when the time comes, no matter how big or small the bill is, essentially the entire Senate Republican caucus won't vote against it. You probably won't even get Mitt Romney on this one. You certainly will not get 10 Republican votes, for this or anything else. The only question that truly remains is whether Sinema really believes this shit.
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Re: Should the Democrats get rid of the filibuster?

Post by Skinypupy »

Smoove_B wrote: Thu Jun 03, 2021 2:08 pm From Esquire, they asked Sinema's office for a single (just one) example of where the filibuster resulted in bipartisan comity.

Should I spoiler it?
Spoiler:
We'll update this if we get a response
These are the people with whom Sinema is going to find compromise on voting-rights legislation? They very likely won't even cooperate on an infrastructure bill, unless you think McConnell's obstruction pledge has an exemption for...a massive public-investment initiative that could define Biden's presidency. Get fucking real. Republicans already used gamesmanship to cover up just how much of a lowball their opening counteroffer on infrastructure was. Now they've got Senator Shelley Moore Capito at the White House conducting negotiations with the Biden folks as if when the time comes, no matter how big or small the bill is, essentially the entire Senate Republican caucus won't vote against it. You probably won't even get Mitt Romney on this one. You certainly will not get 10 Republican votes, for this or anything else. The only question that truly remains is whether Sinema really believes this shit.
The cynic in me thinks that Sinema is going to wait until the most damaging possible moment, then announce she's switching parties. This would endear her to the GOP because she's stigginit to the libs, while handing the reins back over to McConnell. (Disclaimer: I have no idea if/how the process of switching Majority Leader mid-term would actually work).

She just strikes me as that shitty of a person.
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Re: Should the Democrats get rid of the filibuster?

Post by Carpet_pissr »

Yeah, I am surprised we haven't seen more of this actually. Hell, maybe even Manchin too.
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Re: Should the Democrats get rid of the filibuster?

Post by malchior »

Carpet_pissr wrote: Thu Jun 03, 2021 3:04 pm Yeah, I am surprised we haven't seen more of this actually. Hell, maybe even Manchin too.
I have strongly suspected it of Sinema but not so much from Manchin. Though the value of union membership in WV is much lower than it used to be so who knows how long Manchin can keep this act going.
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Re: Should the Democrats get rid of the filibuster?

Post by El Guapo »

malchior wrote: Thu Jun 03, 2021 3:11 pm
Carpet_pissr wrote: Thu Jun 03, 2021 3:04 pm Yeah, I am surprised we haven't seen more of this actually. Hell, maybe even Manchin too.
I have strongly suspected it of Sinema but not so much from Manchin. Though the value of union membership in WV is much lower than it used to be so who knows how long Manchin can keep this act going.
It would be incredibly stupid of Sinema to switch parties. While Arizona is not Vermont it's still trending Democratic, and Sinema would never be trusted by the MAGA base. She'd just wind up (even more) hated by everyone.

Manchin has a stronger self-interest in switching parties given the partisanship of WV. But if that were really under consideration I'm sure that there would be more buzz and chatter about it.
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Re: Should the Democrats get rid of the filibuster?

Post by malchior »

El Guapo wrote: Thu Jun 03, 2021 3:23 pmIt would be incredibly stupid of Sinema to switch parties. While Arizona is not Vermont it's still trending Democratic, and Sinema would never be trusted by the MAGA base. She'd just wind up (even more) hated by everyone.
I think that's slightly overstating the case in the sense that AZ is a hotbed of crazy. She also has been playing stupid social media games...so I don't know what to think about her. I've read a lot of people who know her say she is an opportunist. If she sees the opportunity to jump being worth it....she might. I don't see that happening this year but 2023? Who knows where we'll be. Plus we had this on-topic awkwardness from yesterday.


Manchin has a stronger self-interest in switching parties given the partisanship of WV. But if that were really under consideration I'm sure that there would be more buzz and chatter about it.
That's what I was getting on about but I think he doesn't have any MAGA cred at all to make the switch whereas Sinema at least has been hiding behind a smokescreen.
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Re: Should the Democrats get rid of the filibuster?

Post by Isgrimnur »

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Re: Should the Democrats get rid of the filibuster?

Post by Skinypupy »

El Guapo wrote: Thu Jun 03, 2021 3:23 pm Sinema would never be trusted by the MAGA base. She'd just wind up (even more) hated by everyone.
I think you underestimate the power of stigginit. ;)

Hell, she's doing more by herself to "thwart the liberal agenda" than most of the GOP right now.
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Re: Should the Democrats get rid of the filibuster?

Post by Smoove_B »

Distilled the issue perfectly, right here (quoting NYT opinion piece):


“Both [Sinema] and Manchin are committed to bipartisanship as a supreme good, which in practice means bowing to the wishes of a party that doesn’t believe Joe Biden is a legitimate president and wants above all to see him fail.“
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Re: Should the Democrats get rid of the filibuster?

Post by El Guapo »

Skinypupy wrote: Thu Jun 03, 2021 5:08 pm
El Guapo wrote: Thu Jun 03, 2021 3:23 pm Sinema would never be trusted by the MAGA base. She'd just wind up (even more) hated by everyone.
I think you underestimate the power of stigginit. ;)

Hell, she's doing more by herself to "thwart the liberal agenda" than most of the GOP right now.
I dunno. Obviously there are a number of ambitious MAGA types in Arizona. I can't imagine that they'd all decline to challenge Sinema. I also can't imagine the GOP base affirmatively choosing Sinema over some true believer MAGA type willing to set themselves on fire for Trump.

Occam's razor is that Sinema is some mix of stupid and worried about maintaining enough crossover support from Republicans to get reelected. It doesn't really matter why, though, just whether she's ever going to do anything to save our democracy.
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Re: Should the Democrats get rid of the filibuster?

Post by Little Raven »

Smoove_B wrote: Fri Jun 04, 2021 9:01 amDistilled the issue perfectly, right here (quoting NYT opinion piece):
This seems to assume that Manchin and Sinema are the only things standing between where we are now and the promised land.

But what if that's not true? And what if they both know that's not true?

What if the Democrats don't have anything like 50 votes for HB 1? (or anything else the Democrats want to do) What if Manchin and Sinema both know that the Democrats probably don't even have 45 votes for any of those things? What is the point of getting rid of the filibuster if you know you don't have the votes to do anything with it gone anyway? All you're doing is clearing the way for McConnell's much more unified party whenever he manages to regain control. And what if you've been in the Senate long enough to know that scenario is not only inevitable, it's almost certainly immanent?

If THAT'S true, it seems to me that the best thing Manchin and Sinema could do, both for their party and for themselves...is to commit themselves fully to the filibuster. It helps them personally, since they both hail from states where progressivism is not in vogue. But perhaps more importantly, it helps paper over the massive rifts in the Democratic coalition. With the filibuster in place, the party won't have to suffer through round after round of painful votes that will almost certainly cost them seats without actually achieving anything, while simultaneously laying their throat bare before McConnell when the Republicans retake the chamber.

Of course, if that were true, then Schumer would know it as well, and would be playing along, occasionally expressing his "disappointment" in both of them but never actually inflicting any consequences, even though he could easily do so.

Just a thought.
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Re: Should the Democrats get rid of the filibuster?

Post by Smoove_B »

I suppose there's something to that, sure - seeing the Democrats engaging in public heated debates over how a particular policy should be written would likely cause angst (despite it being an actual, healthy way to conduct governance).

By handling things this way, we've effectively then said everything must be an all-or-nothing endeavor. We've given up on the idea that there should be honest discussion and debate and instead are saying our political process only works in a binary fashion. Granted, not everything is going to be a negotiation, but when it's not even an option to engage in healthy discourse over a legitimate issue? What's the point of all this then? For all of those in Congress that are saying the "system" is so important and the "process" has to maintain integrity? For the last 4 years the GOP controlled the narrative. Now that the Democrats have the ability to raise and pass legislation, the GOP still controls the narrative (and the process). This is a completely dysfunctional system and if there are people that can't see that, I don't know what else could be done to show them how broken it is.

McConnell controlled it during Obama's presidency and he fast-tracked whatever was necessary for Trump. Even after losing his majority status in the Senate he's still somehow controlling whether or not something moves forward? For real?

I am fully in support of the idea that we must kill this system to save it.
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Re: Should the Democrats get rid of the filibuster?

Post by malchior »

Little Raven wrote: Fri Jun 04, 2021 10:08 amOf course, if that were true, then Schumer would know it as well, and would be playing along, occasionally expressing his "disappointment" in both of them but never actually inflicting any consequences, even though he could easily do so.

Just a thought.
I don't think this makes much sense. But it is also sort of irrelevant. The crisis is now. Schumer doesn't have any real incentive to play along. But then again he might be stupid enough to not realize the danger. He certainly is not inspiring any confidence in a plan to save our democracy. In any case, if Manchin and Sinema are the shield for 5 more Senators, I think we deserve to know that so we can apply even more pressure. We just don't have time for these stupid games anymore.
Smoove_B wrote: Fri Jun 04, 2021 10:37 am For the last 40 years the GOP controlled the narrative. Now that the Democrats have the ability to raise and pass legislation, the GOP still controls the narrative (and the process). This is a completely dysfunctional system and if there are people that can't see that, I don't know what else could be done to show them how broken it is.
Made a slight alteration to scale. Big policy levers on economic policy, immigration, taxes, and the judiciary have largely been dominated by the GOP since the 80s.

For example, SCOTUS - the Presidency has been nearly evenly held by Democrats/Republicans after Reagan but the Democrats have 3 Justices on the court despite this split. The GOP has gamed the whole system in their favor over the years. Same thing goes with policy at multiple levels. They either set policy or blocked change to policy. The picture has become relatively clear in this 40-year span. The only "change" we've seen has been delivered at the state level and often clashes with the federal policy. Sometimes the Courts broke in the direction of liberal preferences. That has been the big driver of "change". But even that is over now. This has been a slow grind but the end game approaching is they've slanted the system to the point that they even get to stop pretending the Democrats have had legitimacy to rule with large majorities.
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Re: Should the Democrats get rid of the filibuster?

Post by Little Raven »

Smoove_B wrote: Fri Jun 04, 2021 10:37 am By handling things this way, we've effectively then said everything must be an all-or-nothing endeavor.
Is it? Or it just as acknowledgment of reality...that the Democrats have literally the thinnest majority possible? In order to pass anything, they can have no defections, no abstentions, no last minute concerns. That would be an amazingly tall order for REPUBLICANS...for Democrats, it would be unheard of.

McConnell didn’t deliver everything for Trump. He barely delivered anything for Trump. With 2 years of unified control, Republicans delivered....a tax cut. That’s it. McConnell had his victories, but they were procedural...virtually none of them were legislative.
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Re: Should the Democrats get rid of the filibuster?

Post by El Guapo »

Little Raven wrote: Fri Jun 04, 2021 11:21 am
Smoove_B wrote: Fri Jun 04, 2021 10:37 am By handling things this way, we've effectively then said everything must be an all-or-nothing endeavor.
Is it? Or it just as acknowledgment of reality...that the Democrats have literally the thinnest majority possible? In order to pass anything, they can have no defections, no abstentions, no last minute concerns. That would be an amazingly tall order for REPUBLICANS...for Democrats, it would be unheard of.

McConnell didn’t deliver everything for Trump. He barely delivered anything for Trump. With 2 years of unified control, Republicans delivered....a tax cut. That’s it. McConnell had his victories, but they were procedural...virtually none of them were legislative.
Don't forget that McConnell delivered a buttload of federal judges, including three SCOTUS judges. Meaning he delivered limitations on progressive policies that will last for decades.
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Re: Should the Democrats get rid of the filibuster?

Post by Little Raven »

El Guapo wrote: Fri Jun 04, 2021 11:35 am Don't forget that McConnell delivered a buttload of federal judges, including three SCOTUS judges. Meaning he delivered limitations on progressive policies that will last for decades.
I didn’t - Hence my line about procedural victories. And I have no doubt that Biden could move a SC nominee through the Senate in record time. But legislation is another story.
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Re: Should the Democrats get rid of the filibuster?

Post by malchior »

El Guapo wrote: Fri Jun 04, 2021 11:35 am
Little Raven wrote: Fri Jun 04, 2021 11:21 am
Smoove_B wrote: Fri Jun 04, 2021 10:37 am By handling things this way, we've effectively then said everything must be an all-or-nothing endeavor.
Is it? Or it just as acknowledgment of reality...that the Democrats have literally the thinnest majority possible? In order to pass anything, they can have no defections, no abstentions, no last minute concerns. That would be an amazingly tall order for REPUBLICANS...for Democrats, it would be unheard of.

McConnell didn’t deliver everything for Trump. He barely delivered anything for Trump. With 2 years of unified control, Republicans delivered....a tax cut. That’s it. McConnell had his victories, but they were procedural...virtually none of them were legislative.
Don't forget that McConnell delivered a buttload of federal judges, including three SCOTUS judges. Meaning he delivered limitations on progressive policies that will last for decades.
Seriously. Besides everything they wanted, the idea that they didn't get their bonus goals doesn't provide much comfort. The above also completely misses the boat on how the right 'legislates' now. They pass regressive laws written by Heritage or ALEC at the state level. Bounce it into the court system and let the judges take it from there. Same thing with executive action - Trump successfully fought off all sorts of braking action on several aspects of expansion of the imperial Presidency. We just need to look back at all those House subpoenas that went nowhere.
Little Raven wrote: Fri Jun 04, 2021 11:39 amI didn’t - Hence my line about procedural victories. And I have no doubt that Biden could move a SC nominee through the Senate in record time. But legislation is another story.
They are able to legislate on the things they care about. To sum up the above: Budgets, tax cuts, judges. That's what they care about. The Courts will deliver the rest.
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Re: Should the Democrats get rid of the filibuster?

Post by El Guapo »

Little Raven wrote: Fri Jun 04, 2021 11:39 am
El Guapo wrote: Fri Jun 04, 2021 11:35 am Don't forget that McConnell delivered a buttload of federal judges, including three SCOTUS judges. Meaning he delivered limitations on progressive policies that will last for decades.
I didn’t - Hence my line about procedural victories. And I have no doubt that Biden could move a SC nominee through the Senate in record time. But legislation is another story.
Calling that a "procedural victory" is selling it decidedly short. There is enormous policy substance that will be decided by federal judges over the past several decades. For example, if this SCOTUS was in place seven years ago then the ACA would almost certainly have been completely wiped out by judicial fiat. While we don't yet know the exact policy changes that this SCOTUS will carry out, they will almost certainly be enormous.

It's also a way for McConnell to keep Democrats from reversing the pro-Republican bias in our political institutions. Unfortunately even if Schumer can hypnotize Manchin and Sinema into going along with pro-democracy reforms, there's a very high chance that the SCOTUS guts them. And that bias translates directly into Republican policies.
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Re: Should the Democrats get rid of the filibuster?

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El Guapo wrote: Fri Jun 04, 2021 11:58 am There is enormous policy substance that will be decided by federal judges over the past several decades. For example, if this SCOTUS was in place seven years ago then the ACA would almost certainly have been completely wiped out by judicial fiat. While we don't yet know the exact policy changes that this SCOTUS will carry out, they will almost certainly be enormous.
This. Though it's also very possible that in a few years all this shit won't matter anymore.
It's also a way for McConnell to keep Democrats from reversing the pro-Republican bias in our political institutions. Unfortunately even if Schumer can hypnotize Manchin and Sinema into going along with pro-democracy reforms, there's a very high chance that the SCOTUS guts them. And that bias translates directly into Republican policies.
This why I'm saying the above. That sort of over the horizon problem is one that people aren't realizing yet. Narrow procedural victories by Democrats may very well go nowhere. That's the area where I agree with what some of Drazzil wrote. The game might be over and we just don't know it yet. It's also why some actual very serious people are now saying extra-constitutional things may need to happen to save our democracy. I won't hold much hope but it's crazy that people are openly talking this way.
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Re: Should the Democrats get rid of the filibuster?

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El Guapo wrote: Fri Jun 04, 2021 11:58 am Calling that a "procedural victory" is selling it decidedly short.
Only if you are confusing method and magnitude. Procedural wins can be hugely impactful and legislative ones can be impotent...there’s not lot of correlation there. But what matters is that the Democrats are currently looking for legislative change, and that’s much more difficult to deliver. Even McConnel couldn’t pull it off most of the time. Which brings us back to the question of the filibuster - if we couldn’t pass legislation even if we scrapped it...why should we scrap it?
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Re: Should the Democrats get rid of the filibuster?

Post by Zarathud »

McConnell is a ruthless and unabashed wielder of authoritarian power in the Senate. If Mitch had seen a benefit in impeaching Trump or a January 6 commission or allowing votes to end filibuster, he would do it.

McConnell gained his power by providing cover to Republicans who wanted to keep the money flowing by preventing McCain’s campaign finance reform. He’s always been corrupt and built his power on being shameless. Calling a “personal favor” in ducking the January 6 commission was calling on that power.

Get McConnell out of office and there’s a hope for America.
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Re: Should the Democrats get rid of the filibuster?

Post by Drazzil »

malchior wrote: Fri Jun 04, 2021 12:06 pm
El Guapo wrote: Fri Jun 04, 2021 11:58 am There is enormous policy substance that will be decided by federal judges over the past several decades. For example, if this SCOTUS was in place seven years ago then the ACA would almost certainly have been completely wiped out by judicial fiat. While we don't yet know the exact policy changes that this SCOTUS will carry out, they will almost certainly be enormous.
This. Though it's also very possible that in a few years all this shit won't matter anymore.
It's also a way for McConnell to keep Democrats from reversing the pro-Republican bias in our political institutions. Unfortunately even if Schumer can hypnotize Manchin and Sinema into going along with pro-democracy reforms, there's a very high chance that the SCOTUS guts them. And that bias translates directly into Republican policies.
This why I'm saying the above. That sort of over the horizon problem is one that people aren't realizing yet. Narrow procedural victories by Democrats may very well go nowhere. That's the area where I agree with what some of Drazzil wrote. The game might be over and we just don't know it yet. It's also why some actual very serious people are now saying extra-constitutional things may need to happen to save our democracy. I won't hold much hope but it's crazy that people are openly talking this way.
Here's the thing. We all know that Biden would never do this; But arresting a lot of the GOP and using RICO laws against the GOP would NOT be against the law. They are DEFINITELY a crime organization.

Also, certain members of the GOP in the house gave roadmaps to the rioters during the Jan 6 riots. This is domestic terrorism. According to the laws that Republican's themselves wrote, can be used to take away the right of due process to people deemed "domestic terrorists" The members of the GOP who voted against the commission could actually easily be considered aiding and abetting terrorism, which gets THEIR due process taken away.

And here's the thing about the supreme court. It could be argued that they are NOT in fact the final say in all matters of law and legislation. The founding fathers did NOT, I repeat NOT intend for this to be the case. In Madison v Marbury, the SC GAVE themselves these rights. If the DOJ wanted to launch a covert investigation into the skeletons in the closets of the (ESPECIALLY Trump and Bush appointed) SC. They would be completely within their rights. Or we could just simply ignore the SC in matters of legislation and law.

If Biden didn't think that his current guy, Merrick Garland would be willing to sign off on this, he is within his rights to fire the man and appoint an acting, who could get this whole process started.

All we would need to do is start arresting the GOP members who are involved in collusion. We could then sit on them and start shaking the trees to get all the dirt out of them as we needed. After the arrests happened and the investigation against the house and SC started, Biden could get a real clear picture of the various criminal activities of the GOP. THEN he could make the case to the people, pass whatever he wanted through the now terrified house and there you have it.

Real structural change. And the best part is? None of this is illegal. Sweeping laws are already on the books. No illegal acts will have been committed. Just takes the right kind of AG to make it happen, and the house would be restored to functionality and the SC muzzled from the overreaching powers they allowed themselves.
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Re: Should the Democrats get rid of the filibuster?

Post by Remus West »

What you're suggesting is essentially tossing Democracy in the waste bin and run a Democratic Party authoritarian system.
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Re: Should the Democrats get rid of the filibuster?

Post by malchior »

Remus West wrote: Fri Jun 04, 2021 7:58 pm What you're suggesting is essentially tossing Democracy in the waste bin and run a Democratic Party authoritarian system.
That is my read as well. This would actually be far more destructive than the path we appear to be on now.
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Re: Should the Democrats get rid of the filibuster?

Post by Kraken »

malchior wrote: Fri Jun 04, 2021 9:11 pm
Remus West wrote: Fri Jun 04, 2021 7:58 pm What you're suggesting is essentially tossing Democracy in the waste bin and run a Democratic Party authoritarian system.
That is my read as well. This would actually be far more destructive than the path we appear to be on now.
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Re: Should the Democrats get rid of the filibuster?

Post by Drazzil »

Remus West wrote: Fri Jun 04, 2021 7:58 pm What you're suggesting is essentially tossing Democracy in the waste bin and run a Democratic Party authoritarian system.
Jayzus. How many times do I have to say this? How many threads do I have to repeat this in? You guys miss the point and then ask me the same thing, over and over.

Prosecution of criminal activity does NOT; I repeat NOT equal political persecution, OR authorianism.

Say; just for the sake of an example. I ran a criminal organization. I have TONS of senators and politicians on my payroll. I get these people to protect me, and change the laws involving my illegal businesses to the detriment of American citizens. Is it then political persecution or authoritanism to prosecute me, or the politicians I bought under RICO? If I were a drug dealer or a weapons seller or whatever illegal stuff I did, is it "political persecution to arrest me or my ilk and charge them with doing crime?

So lets then again ask this about the GOP. If the GOP is one giant organization committed to the conspiracy of doing blatantly illegal stuff like enabling intimidation, terrorism, breaking federal laws in multiple occasion with the corrupt aim of stealing power by any blatantly illegal means necessary. Should they then be protected? Coddled? Appeased?

Scooping up members of the senate, the house, or heavens forfend, even the Supreme court for previous or even current activity that blatantly breaks the law. That's not political prosecution! That's not authoritanism. That's just the justice system doing what it needs to to protect itself. Thats democracy

The laws to take care of this GOP fuckery are already on the books. Its called terrorism Its called felony. Violation of the hatch act. If you abandon your oath to protect capital rioters in a terrorist attack on the government its called TREASON!! Its time we treat it as such.
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Re: Should the Democrats get rid of the filibuster?

Post by Drazzil »

malchior wrote: Fri Jun 04, 2021 9:11 pm
Remus West wrote: Fri Jun 04, 2021 7:58 pm What you're suggesting is essentially tossing Democracy in the waste bin and run a Democratic Party authoritarian system.
That is my read as well. This would actually be far more destructive than the path we appear to be on now.
Prosecuting the GOP with the RICO laws, thats authoritanism? Unwinding and exposing the GOP to the full extent of the laws that they themselves wrote. thats fascism?

Someone who plans the bombing of a federal building or runs an interstate conspiracy to sell drugs. We can use rico kws against them, but breaking federal laws and imbezzlement on the federal level, let alone the hundreds of crimes the GOP has done in plain sight that I'm not even gonna list here.
Is prosecuting crime on a massive level fascism? If so the mafia would like a word.
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Re: Should the Democrats get rid of the filibuster?

Post by Drazzil »

You know. With half of the population in this country so misled and gaslit into enabling a fascist organization, doing fascist shit, it may be time to conclude that we can't have a democracy at present. It may be simply behind and beyond us. When one half of the population is racist and crazy as shit because they've been radicalized... Are you REALLY suuuure you want these people to vote? For anything? When they set up an active proto fascist party and are wanting to turn the US into a theocratic fascist state?

Caight between theocratic fascism and Caesar.... Well, I'd be the first in line to hail Caesar.

Something modern people forget about Caesar is that he took a shitty republic system that served only the rich and made it work for the average citizen for over 200 years. And the empire stuck around for a thousand after that. I'd be down with Caesar.

So cards on the table. I'm not for democracy at this time. Democracy hasn't worked for me, and I have zero reason it'll work for me in the future.
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Re: Should the Democrats get rid of the filibuster?

Post by malchior »

Drazzil wrote: Sat Jun 05, 2021 12:36 am
malchior wrote: Fri Jun 04, 2021 9:11 pm
Remus West wrote: Fri Jun 04, 2021 7:58 pm What you're suggesting is essentially tossing Democracy in the waste bin and run a Democratic Party authoritarian system.
That is my read as well. This would actually be far more destructive than the path we appear to be on now.
Prosecuting the GOP with the RICO laws, thats authoritanism? Unwinding and exposing the GOP to the full extent of the laws that they themselves wrote. thats fascism?
Yes. It is also a non-starter as an idea. What is the GOP? Are you talking about the leadership? To what level? Down to dog catcher in every town? Maybe only Federal Republicans? Serving members or retired GOP? Registered Republicans - over a 100 million? Who are we going after with RICO? How does it not look like a political persecution when party affiliation is the class determinant? This is a completely unformed idea.
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Re: Should the Democrats get rid of the filibuster?

Post by Blackhawk »

Drazzil, one big difference between you and I: I am politically naive, and I know it. I don't really understand how politics work, so I have no idea whether my ideas even make sense. As such, I go out of myway to listen more than I talk, because I know that when I talk, I'm probably going to be full of it.
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Re: Should the Democrats get rid of the filibuster?

Post by Smoove_B »

I think to add more to malchior's point (and to dig into what I think Drazzil is expressing in his frustration), our laws don't adequately address these types of crime. More to the point, I am not sure we've seen this level of open, brazen abuse of power that isn't *technically* illegal but I'd think an outsider would agree seems sketchy as hell. Top of that list? Campaign finance. Here you have the very people that benefit from how the laws are written working to craft (and then approve) them. What did we expect?

But to zoom out of scope for a second - just look at what former President Trump was doing and all the people looking at each other asking, "Is that legal? Can he do that?" Years later, we still don't know and we're collectively worse for it.

So I get Drazzil's sentiment - truly - when a system is crafted in such a way as to enrich and protect those in power, at some point burn it all down *is* a reasonable suggestion.

I mean, there were politicians on all elements of the spectrum cowering (rightfully so) in fear on 1/6. And yet so many of them still voted to (1) not certify the Presidential election results and (2) against any type of formal investigation. The rot is real.

And that's why the Democrats should get rid of the filibuster. Because it would seem its the only real chance to get anything done, maybe. If they blow up the filibuster and nothing get done? Then we're well and truly fuct. But at least they did something.
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Re: Should the Democrats get rid of the filibuster?

Post by Zarathud »

Drazzil’s fantasy is as dangerous as Trump himself.

Who will convict? The Republicans won’t even vote to investigate. There is zero chance they will vote to punish their own.

The conservative Supreme Court isn’t going to support broad application of RICO and treason. Nor will a jury when you’re likely to get one or two Trumpers.

If Democrats start the precedent of broadly prosecuting the Republicans, how bad is it going to get if crazy Republicans win again? You know Trump asked if he could prosecute Hillary. He’s even more unhinged now.

The only way we’re going to survive the existing prosecutions of Trump is that they pre-existed his Presidency.



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Re: Should the Democrats get rid of the filibuster?

Post by Smoove_B »


More than 100 liberal groups are urging Senate Democrats to abolish the filibuster.

"This is truly a five-alarm fire. Democrats have to make the fundamental choice: Are they going to protect the filibuster or are they going to protect voting rights?"
From the linked article:
The letter cites Manchin's recent remarks that the GOP move to block the creation of a Jan. 6 commission was "disheartening" and concerning for the country. And it calls for passage of the For the People Act, a sweeping bill to guarantee voting procedures like 15 days of early voting and mail-in ballots in all states.

Schumer plans to bring up the bill in the coming weeks, along with others, like the Paycheck Fairness Act and possibly LGBTQ rights legislation, which are likely to be blocked by filibusters. They will test the Democratic resolve to preserve the supermajority rule.

"These next two months are going to be absolutely critical," said former Senate leadership aide Eli Zupnick, a spokesman for Fix Our Senate. "
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Re: Should the Democrats get rid of the filibuster?

Post by Drazzil »

Zarathud wrote: Sat Jun 05, 2021 11:33 am Drazzil’s fantasy is as dangerous as Trump himself.

Who will convict? The Republicans won’t even vote to investigate. There is zero chance they will vote to punish their own.

The conservative Supreme Court isn’t going to support broad application of RICO and treason. Nor will a jury when you’re likely to get one or two Trumpers.

If Democrats start the precedent of broadly prosecuting the Republicans, how bad is it going to get if crazy Republicans win again? You know Trump asked if he could prosecute Hillary. He’s even more unhinged now.

The only way we’re going to survive the existing prosecutions of Trump is that they pre-existed his Presidency.
Okay. Let me be clearer. The Republicans at the federal level. In the house? In the Senate? At the state level? Lets investigate all those guys. Everyone that enabled the attack on the capital. Everyone who voted against the commission or refused to certify Biden's win. Scoop em up. Hit em with terrorism charges. Use the laws they wrote against them. Make them "enemy combatants". Pump them for information. LEGALLY AS THE LAWS ARE ALREADY ON THE BOOKS WRITTEN BY REPUBLICANS TAKE AWAY THEIR DUE PROCESS. Unroll the GOP at the federal and state level with RICO. Present evidence of the criming to the American people.

As far as who would vote to convict? Who cares? Lets grab a jury of our own choosing. Lets bend that jury selection pool a bit. As far as the Supreme court not allowing it? Lets arrest Trumps SC picks. Find some dirt on them and impeach them. It should be easy enough. They're scumbags. Drop like a hundred charges on them and deny bail. That would be enough to terrify the others to fall in line. Oh and Madison v. Marbury is still out there. The supreme court granted themselves the power to dictate how we govern. That was NOT how the founding fathers envisioned them. Lets reopen that discussion.

So. What I am suggesting is not exactly illegal. Is it authoritarian? Yes. Is it a tad fashy? Maybe? Can it use the existing laws on the books to give it an air of legality? Absolutely. And without this kind of action. OUR. COUNTRY. IS. DEAD.

Not just the "Republic" Fuck the republic. That ship has sailed.

See. Here's the thing. The monster truck of... I dunno what to call it. Empire? Post republic America? Its already out there. Keys in the ignition idling. Deep throaty purr of its engine roaring for all to hear. Door open. That's not gonna change. Our system is already dead. Everyone knows it. That monster truck is here to stay. Democracy and the Republic have already been fatally discredited. The only thing remaining is to decide who jumps in the diver seat and takes off. Americans are already sick of "Democracy" My generation especially.

The Republicans will use that thing to disenfranchise blacks, Make the poor poorer, and generally speaking drive it over anyone who isn't the one percent. If the Republicans drive this monster truck down the road they wanna drive it. Down that road lies madness. Syrian style civil war, A prison state. The return of Jim Crow.

Now if the Democrats are smart and they do what I suggested? Well. That's a different road. Maybe not that horrible road the Republicans wanna drive us down. Maybe that's that road our country stays together, where there is no civil war. Maybe that's the road where we can take another swing at democracy in 30 or so years. Who knows?


Sooooo. I have derailed this thread enough. I am sorry for that. Maybe, I'll post another thread on my views of what's going down. Maybe you guys will actually respond. That'd be good. I'm sorry that I went out into the weeds.
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Re: Should the Democrats get rid of the filibuster?

Post by Zarathud »

Burning the country down to fulfill a dream of revolution is insanity similar to QAnon. Put all of that venom and frustration into helping someone get elected to stop the madness.

The solution to crazy is not getting more insane.
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Re: Should the Democrats get rid of the filibuster?

Post by Alefroth »

Maybe you could be more specific about the laws on the books you are referring to.
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Re: Should the Democrats get rid of the filibuster?

Post by Drazzil »

Alefroth wrote: Sun Jun 06, 2021 12:25 am Maybe you could be more specific about the laws on the books you are referring to.
I'm not a lawyer. I'd say all the laws the PATRIOT act gave us. And all the laws that were passed after the Jan 6 riots. I'm sure there's a legal precedent to be found.
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Re: Should the Democrats get rid of the filibuster?

Post by stessier »

It's nice to see the Left has people as crazy as Qanon followers.
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Re: Should the Democrats get rid of the filibuster?

Post by Octavious »

Well the voting bill is officially dead. And the republicans keep on pushing the notion that the Dems stick together. Sure Jan...
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