The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

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YellowKing
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Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

Post by YellowKing »

The sad reality is if adults just acted like adults, there wouldn't be any issues with this guidance at all. Unvaccinated people would wear masks at all times, vaccinated people would go about their business, and everyone would be happy. The only people ruining this for everyone are unvaccinated anti-maskers, and what else is new - they've been ruining everything from the start.
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Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

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I saw a post saying that a mask on a plane is a good idea even in a non-Covid era.
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Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

Post by LawBeefaroni »

Jaymann wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 12:40 pm I saw a post saying that a mask on a plane is a good idea even in a non-Covid era.
Except if you are seen trying to avoid common plane gunk or con sickness, you will be branded as mask-dependent and chastised for your addiction.
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Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

Post by Smoove_B »

Jaymann wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 12:40 pm I saw a post saying that a mask on a plane is a good idea even in a non-Covid era.
Not just planes, but numerous places for various reasons. Except it's completely against "You don't tell me what to do" American culture. If this pandemic was a test, we failed. More concerning is we continue to fail, and so much of it is tied to that American attitude.

If I was the parent of an 8 or 5 year old right now, I'd feel completely abandoned.

Still so very confused by it all.
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Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

Post by raydude »

LawBeefaroni wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 12:44 pm
Jaymann wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 12:40 pm I saw a post saying that a mask on a plane is a good idea even in a non-Covid era.
Except if you are seen trying to avoid common plane gunk or con sickness, you will be branded as mask-dependent and chastised for your addiction.
Speaking as one who never cared what strangers thought that's fine by me.
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Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

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Smoove_B wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 12:59 pm If I was the parent of an 8 or 5 year old right now, I'd feel completely abandoned.
Maybe it's just because of where I live, but I don't understand this. When we go out now, yes, more people will be unmasked, but so what? The vaccinated ones were the vast majority of the ones wearing the masks as is. If you have a kid, they have to wear a mask. I would too in that situation as a sign of solidarity, but as a vaccinated individual, I don't have to. The studies say I have a very small chance of catching anything and around the same chance of passing it on if I do. It seems pretty straightforward.
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Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

Post by Smoove_B »

Because public health should be focusing on protecting those that need it the most. Above and beyond the under-served, right now the overwhelming number of kids under the age of 16 aren't vaccinated and won't'/can't be vaccinated. So we've just opened the floodgates on maskless encounters everywhere without regard to local conditions and effectively indicated that kids (unvaccinated) should just be in masks indefinitely. Here, I'd feel abandoned as the "world is moving on" seemingly more concerned about convincing the final holdouts to vaccinate ("you can go mask-free") rather than protect those that still can't be vaccinated and are still at risk from those that refuse to vaccinate.
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Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

Post by Smoove_B »

Let's see how this goes over - NJ is keeping its indoor mask mandate for the time being:
New Jersey will still require all people — vaccinated or not — to wear masks indoors in public to protect against the coronavirus, Gov. Phil Murphy said Friday, even after federal health officials released updated guidance Thursday that says masks are not needed for fully vaccinated Americans in most circumstances.

But those who are fully vaccinated in the Garden State no longer need to wear a mask outside, Murphy said. Those who aren’t vaccinated still need to wear masks when in “close proximity” to others, he said.
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Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

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As the parent of 3 non-vaccinated kids under age 12 (including one who is very high risk), the scariness comes from a concern that non-vaccinated people will present as vaccinated just to get out of wearing a mask (probably a pretty big overlap on the anti-vax/anti-mask Venn diagram). My kids will wear masks, but that's much less protection if potentially infected people aren't wearing masks, too.
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Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

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IMO the plan should have been give 60 days to get kids vaccinated before going maskless — and make it a big push. We will live with the consequences of endangering our children so blatantly.
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Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

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Ya this is almost Trump level planning where you just change the rules overnight without thinking about what will happen. :x
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Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

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FWIW a bunch of large chains (Target, Walgreen's, etc.) have already said that they're going to retain their mask requirements.
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Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

Post by Smoove_B »

El Guapo wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 3:06 pm FWIW a bunch of large chains (Target, Walgreen's, etc.) have already said that they're going to retain their mask requirements.
It would not surprise me to learn large retail corporations lobbied our governor last night to keep the mask mandate in effect for a little longer.
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Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

Post by Kraken »

raydude wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 1:17 pm
LawBeefaroni wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 12:44 pm
Jaymann wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 12:40 pm I saw a post saying that a mask on a plane is a good idea even in a non-Covid era.
Except if you are seen trying to avoid common plane gunk or con sickness, you will be branded as mask-dependent and chastised for your addiction.
Speaking as one who never cared what strangers thought that's fine by me.
+1. After my yearly physical today, I had a long conversation with the nurse about how glad we were to have avoided the flu, colds, bronchitis, and even allergy symptoms over the past year. I would like to continue avoiding those maladies and will most likely mask up again next flu season, regardless of where we are with covid.
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Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

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Smoove_B wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 3:19 pm
El Guapo wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 3:06 pm FWIW a bunch of large chains (Target, Walgreen's, etc.) have already said that they're going to retain their mask requirements.
It would not surprise me to learn large retail corporations lobbied our governor last night to keep the mask mandate in effect for a little longer.
Definitely. They don't want to be put in the awkward position of not being a safe place to shop because of this once again chaotic approach to this pandemic. Bigger picture I really thought we were going to be past this type of mixed messaging. I'll continue to be extremely disappointed at our lack of ability to govern while still being thankful we still have a democracy for now.
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Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

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Well if there's anything I learned from zombie movies, it's that the CDC is far from perfect.

Our governor just announced he's pushing for the end of most mask mandates and gathering limitations by June 1.
Last edited by YellowKing on Fri May 14, 2021 4:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

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I’m really happy to see the CDC conform their recommendations about masks and vaccinated individuals to the science. That said, I feel like we’re ostriches with our head in the sand to think that those adverse to masks are necessarily going to be truthful about their vaccination status. I don’t see how we remove the indoor mask mandates without coupling that to a requirement (with an enforcement mechanism) that you be able to show that you were vaccinated.
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Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

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My vaccination card is just writing on a little cardboard form. How difficult would it be to fake that?
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Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

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Kurth wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 4:04 pm I’m really happy to see the CDC conform their recommendations about masks and vaccinated individuals to the science. That said, I feel like we’re ostriches with our head in the sand to think that those adverse to masks are necessarily going to be truthful about their vaccination status.
I see these in opposition. That was why the CDC was being cautious.
I don’t see how we remove the indoor mask mandates without coupling that to a requirement (with an enforcement mechanism) that you be able to show that you were vaccinated.
Sure, which is why this is complicated. It's hard to make wise policy in an ungovernable nation.
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Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

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Smoove_B wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 10:36 am I'd expect this story to be a prominent feature of Fox News all day today.:


Pelosi keeps mask mandate on House floor despite CDC change, sparking GOP backlash: "It’s about control"
I don’t get what Pelosi is doing here. She says she won’t lift the mandate because ALL of the House isn’t vaccinated. That will never happen. You have a handful of GOP members (e.g., Greene, Cawthorn, etc.) who are adamant that they will not get the vaccine.
“You would hope that science would guide them to protect themselves, their family members and be good colleagues in the workplace to get vaccinated,” Pelosi said last month. “And the sooner that happens, the better for everything.”
You know what, Nancy, we would also hope that these elected members of United States House of Representatives would be good and decent people, but, guess what? That’s not within our power to change. By refusing to lift the mandate, isn’t Pelosi just helping them make political hay out of something that should absolutely not be a politicized issue?

Obviously, she’s also helping to protect their lives, but, in all honesty, who gives a shit? I’m not going to shed any tears if Greene or Cawthorn refuse to vaccinate and refuse to wear masks and subsequently - shockingly - get COVID. Although, if the vast majority of the House has been vaccinated, I’m not sure that’s even all that significant of a risk for them. Probably pales in comparison to some of the other risky behavior they’ve been partaking in, but, again, not our problem.

Also, couldn’t she just change the rule to conform to the new CDC guidelines and lift the mask mandate for vaccinated members?

In the end, this just seems like a stupid overreach on her part. I don’t understand what she’s trying to do.
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Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

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Kurth wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 4:18 pm Also, couldn’t she just change the rule to conform to the new CDC guidelines and lift the mask mandate for vaccinated members?
That's exactly what she should do. Then when Greene or another of Idiot Caucus shows up without a mask, make a big deal out of how she must be vaccinated because she's not wearing a mask.
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Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

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ImLawBoy wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 4:55 pm
Kurth wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 4:18 pm Also, couldn’t she just change the rule to conform to the new CDC guidelines and lift the mask mandate for vaccinated members?
That's exactly what she should do. Then when Greene or another of Idiot Caucus shows up without a mask, make a big deal out of how she must be vaccinated because she's not wearing a mask.
I'd suggest requiring every House member to submit a sworn affidavit attesting to getting vaccinated as a requirement for lifting the mask requirement as to them.
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Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

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Forcing them to reveal their vaccination status violates HIPAA! (it doesn't)

So, here's what NJ avoided today by making the call to still wear masks indoors.

Next, go online and see what people are saying on social media about Trader Joe's or any number of other businesses and their mask/ non mask policies based on the CDC guidance.

Chaos, the answer is chaos.
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Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

Post by Alefroth »

Kraken wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 3:20 pm I would like to continue avoiding those maladies and will most likely mask up again next flu season, regardless of where we are with covid.
Ditto, and I think the stigma of mask wearing will be less than it was pre-COVID. It has been to a degree, even if small, normalized.
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Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

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I don't know how things are in non third-world states, but from what I have seen, whether or not stores keep mandates or not is irrelevant. People who don't want to wear masks aren't going to wear them regardless of what the sign on the door says, and the stores have no way of even arguing with them.

Likewise the idea of confirming vaccination status to allow people to unmask indoors. Who is going to be checking, and who is going to be enforcing it?

Masking indoors has been voluntary since day one in 90% of stores because there is no way to force the issue if people ignore it.
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Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

Post by LawBeefaroni »

Smoove_B wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 5:14 pm Forcing them to reveal their vaccination status violates HIPAA! (it doesn't)

So, here's what NJ avoided today by making the call to still wear masks indoors.

Next, go online and see what people are saying on social media about Trader Joe's or any number of other businesses and their mask/ non mask policies based on the CDC guidance.

Chaos, the answer is chaos.
There is no way they will be able to enforce the "you can go maskless if you are vaccinated" rules. It basically becomes "don't wear a mask if you don't want to." Counting on the honesty and civic sacrifice of people in America today is pure folly.
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Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

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Blackhawk wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 9:05 am I don't know how things are in non third-world states, but from what I have seen, whether or not stores keep mandates or not is irrelevant. People who don't want to wear masks aren't going to wear them regardless of what the sign on the door says, and the stores have no way of even arguing with them.

Likewise the idea of confirming vaccination status to allow people to unmask indoors. Who is going to be checking, and who is going to be enforcing it?

Masking indoors has been voluntary since day one in 90% of stores because there is no way to force the issue if people ignore it.
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Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

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LawBeefaroni wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 9:23 am
Smoove_B wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 5:14 pm Forcing them to reveal their vaccination status violates HIPAA! (it doesn't)

So, here's what NJ avoided today by making the call to still wear masks indoors.

Next, go online and see what people are saying on social media about Trader Joe's or any number of other businesses and their mask/ non mask policies based on the CDC guidance.

Chaos, the answer is chaos.
There is no way they will be able to enforce the "you can go maskless if you are vaccinated" rules. It basically becomes "don't wear a mask if you don't want to." Counting on the honesty and civic sacrifice of people in America today is pure folly.
That's a part of the thrust of this piece that my wife sent me this morning:

https://www.cnn.com/2021/05/14/opinions ... index.html

Tl; Dr - whether or not this policy was warranted, doing it now, with no major milestone triggering it, and no solid enforcement/verification method, is a continuation of America's policy of tripping just before the finish line.
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Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

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It dawns on me that when I wear a mask when it's not required, as I did while walking through our town square today, I am unintentionally signalling that I'm not vaccinated. I'm not real happy about that.
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Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

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They should make ‘vaccinated’ masks.
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Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

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Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

Post by Smoove_B »

An opinion piece by public health experts on why they're going to continue to wear masks:
People should have complete information and be empowered to make their own decisions about how to address this small risk after being fully vaccinated, perhaps with the additional second layer of protection that masks afford. With the new announcement, every breakthrough infection that occurs will undermine CDC's message that if you are vaccinated, it is completely safe to remove your mask. The new guidance was too certain and too declarative to be a public health message we can take to the bank.

...

Fifth, the public health message would have been much stronger if it had been tied to a specific milestone. For instance, elsewhere, we've argued that by July 4 it is vital to get the number of Covid deaths in the US down to a level that is on par with influenza (as an interim milestone). A much more powerful and effective message would have been for the CDC to assert that if, for instance, daily Covid-19 deaths get to 50 to 100 per day, then some precautionary mandates will be lifted. Now, the collective incentive to achieve such milestones is largely lost. The current number of deaths is about 600 per day.

...

The way the CDC unveiled this message, it can't easily be undone. If the pandemic gets even worse, this will be a hard policy to reverse. We hope the US can continue to make progress on Covid-19 prevention and treatment, but it will have to be done despite this messaging but not because of it. Much work remains to be done to improve vaccination uptake, continued use of other non-pharmaceutical interventions, and achieve better access to treatment so as to truly lower Covid-19 cases and deaths and do so in an equitable manner. The fastest way there is not by discarding safety measures.
I think that final point is what's bothering me the most - there's no turning back; we have fully committed now to being "mask free" based on some behind the curtain metric that I still haven't seen quantified. I'm assuming it's tied to the number of people that have at least one shot, but I don't know. If this recommendation had been tied to a state level of infection or daily deaths, we could always fall back on that previously established number if for some reason cluster outbreaks (and make no mistake, they're coming) push the needle significantly in one direction in the short term ("People residing in [County, State] are advised to wear masks for the next 21 days to help stop spread").

I should be really happy about this, but instead it's reaffirming my belief that Americans are moving on and truly believe the pandemic is over.
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Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

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Smoove_B wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 11:47 am based on some behind the curtain metric that I still haven't seen quantified. I'm assuming it's tied to the number of people that have at least one shot, but I don't know
Let us know if you ever get a better understanding on this. I'm trying to understand what metric put us here.
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Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

Post by Smoove_B »

The closest I've seen is this:
It's a move the agency said was driven by scientific evidence that the vaccines play a major role in curbing both infections and transmission of the virus.

In announcing the agency's updated guidelines, CDC Director Dr. Rochelle Walensky said there are "numerous reports in the literature" to demonstrate the safety and real-world effectiveness of Covid-19 vaccines.
It's just so confusing because they sound like they believe everyone that wants to be vaccinated is already fully protected. My wife signed up in NJ the second she was eligible and she still has another week to go for full protection; I know she's not alone. Not that the CDC is making policy decisions based on my wife, but for a state like NJ that was really slow in opening up availability, there just wasn't enough time to be fully protected.

I really can only assume they used the % eligible that have received the first shot as a core metric, along with overall cases in the U.S. to help frame it. But yeah, I'll keep looking to see if someone (reporters?) are going to ask detailed questions regarding the exact metrics they used. Just saying the vaccine is effective in lowering infections and transmission isn't enough if only ~25% of your state (I'm looking at you Mississippi) is fully vaccinated.
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Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

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Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

Post by Alefroth »

Kraken wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 11:13 am It dawns on me that when I wear a mask when it's not required, as I did while walking through our town square today, I am unintentionally signalling that I'm not vaccinated. I'm not real happy about that.
I'm just going to tell people I have tuberculosis.
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Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

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Smoove_B wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 11:47 am the pandemic is over.
So glad to hear it. It was tough but we beat this thing. Time to party.


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Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

Post by Holman »

Y'all probably know this, but in some parts of Asia, mask-wearing has been routine for years. People who are sick or think they might be sick wear masks, and no one thinks anything of it. It's considered part of basic politeness. I could see that becoming the norm in parts of the West now, too.

And the flip side: I doubt I'll ever fly or ride a bus without a mask again. That part is about protecting myself.
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Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

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Alefroth wrote:
Kraken wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 11:13 am It dawns on me that when I wear a mask when it's not required, as I did while walking through our town square today, I am unintentionally signalling that I'm not vaccinated. I'm not real happy about that.
I'm just going to tell people I have tuberculosis.
My neighborhood has not taken the memo. Majority still wearing masks. I figured id give it a week, And thenstart braving the world sans mask talking to any stranger that will listen how glad i am to be vaccinated.

Pretending like my identity and privacy face blankey was somehow an annoyance.

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Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

Post by Defiant »

The survey of 1,561 U.S. adults, which was conducted from May 11 to 13, found that in the week immediately prior to Thursday’s announcement, nearly two-thirds of Americans were still saying they wore a mask outside in public “always” (39 percent) or “most of the time” (24 percent) — and the numbers among vaccinated Americans were even higher, at 42 percent and 27 percent, respectively.
Now that moment has arrived, and frequent mask wearers say it is significantly more likely than any other milestone — such as “waiting until more people in my community are fully vaccinated” (25 percent) or “waiting until there are no COVID-19 cases in my community” (21 percent) — to convince them to lower their face coverings. A full 45 percent of Democrats who wear masks all or most of the time, for instance, said they would stop whenever the CDC gave them permission to do so.
https://news.yahoo.com/poll-vaccinated- ... 11328.html
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