Racism in America (with data)

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Isgrimnur
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Re: Racism in America (with data)

Post by Isgrimnur »

Fuck Southlake. That is all.
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Re: Racism in America (with data)

Post by Holman »

I went to high school in Gwinnett County, GA (top of the list).

I can believe the residents are racist.
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Re: Racism in America (with data)

Post by Grifman »

Blackhawk wrote: Thu Aug 12, 2021 8:59 am Does anyone know of a particularly solid primer on CRT? It isn't something I've looked deeply in to. I've generally accepted it because the people who I agree with other, similar issues on are universally behind it, but I think I want a better understanding.

Digging up such information yourself can be a minefield if you don't know the biases of the presenter.
https://alsoacarpenter.com/2020/12/28/i ... ce-theory/

This is an excellent overview. Surprisingly, it's written by an evangelical Christian but it's not an anti-CRT polemical rant, this guy is actually pro-CRT. There's nothing really religious in his overview and he quotes liberally from a number of applicable authors and includes links to various works at the end of his overview. I found him Twitter actively refuting many of the more ridiculous accusations against CRT which drew my interest.
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Re: Racism in America (with data)

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Re: Racism in America (with data)

Post by coopasonic »

Christ. We are awful people.
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Re: Racism in America (with data)

Post by gbasden »

coopasonic wrote: Wed Oct 06, 2021 5:16 pm Christ. We are awful people.
But we should be careful not to cancel that neighbor for being an absolute fuckwad. We wouldn't want mob justice!
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Re: Racism in America (with data)

Post by LordMortis »

gbasden wrote: Wed Oct 06, 2021 11:27 pm
coopasonic wrote: Wed Oct 06, 2021 5:16 pm Christ. We are awful people.
But we should be careful not to cancel that neighbor for being an absolute fuckwad. We wouldn't want mob justice!
Not directly related to racism but the morning news seems to be focusing on officials indignant about pushback to people pushing back on communities calling "concerned parents" attacking and making death threats to school districts staff/board/families over COVID based health requirements. We're really losing this nation generational ignorant anger and it's being spurred by private and political interests which seem to often come back to a psychotic desire to institutionalize bigotry. [/zaxxon]we're fucked[/zaxxon]
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Re: Racism in America (with data)

Post by LawBeefaroni »

malchior wrote: Wed Oct 06, 2021 3:49 pm
Unbelievable.

Ideally the community would rally around the family and deal with the shitty racist neighbor. Unfortunately we know better than to hope for that.

Maybe a civil suit?
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Re: Racism in America (with data)

Post by malchior »

It's complicated to say the least. I read a couple of lawyers in VA who said the police or some authority should be applying one of VA's harassment statutes. The police are essentially turning a blind eye to it. The neighbors are banded together as well from what I saw. He is a menace to that neighborhood in other ways (harassing other neighbors, yelling at kids, parking violations, etc.) If you leave it to social pressure, well the trouble is the guy is a complete shut in. He lives with his mom. He is apparently unemployed. There are no social levers to apply. He self-shuns. Sounds like a civil suit hasn't made sense otherwise she'd probably be doing it. Maybe the trouble is cost. I don't know but this seems like the perfect opportunity for someone to step in and help if that is the case.
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Re: Racism in America (with data)

Post by TheMix »

As much as I hate to say it, this sounds like the one time where a Home Owners Association would be useful.

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Re: Racism in America (with data)

Post by LawBeefaroni »

TheMix wrote: Thu Oct 07, 2021 11:47 am As much as I hate to say it, this sounds like the one time where a Home Owners Association would be useful.
Or a neighbor kid with a bb gun.
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Re: Racism in America (with data)

Post by Smoove_B »

malchior wrote: Thu Oct 07, 2021 10:24 am I don't know but this seems like the perfect opportunity for someone to step in and help if that is the case.
I don't know the laws are for this state, but at a minimum I'd think the police could intervene with a "disturbing the peace" type summons. If it was our state, we have specific noise laws that local health authorities can enforce. This involves standing at a property line with a noise meter and taking measurements. Not only have I done that, but I've been involved in court cases related to it. This would be the ideal solution because it's equivalent to catching someone speeding with a radar gun, i.e. there's a defined dB measurement. As opposed to the "disturbing the peace" path which can be subjective.
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Re: Racism in America (with data)

Post by TheMix »

Smoove_B wrote: Thu Oct 07, 2021 12:08 pm the police could intervene
I believe this is the sticking point. The police has essentially said "not gonna". Which is why it's so frustrating. It's not just the neighbor that is being horrible in this instance. The police are definitely participating.

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Re: Racism in America (with data)

Post by LordMortis »

One would think this would be enough for a lawyer to take this on pro bono

https://law.lis.virginia.gov/vacode/tit ... n18.2-427/


There's gotta be something out there ever closer
§ 18.2-427. Use of profane, threatening, or indecent language over public airways or by other methods.

Any person who uses obscene, vulgar, profane, lewd, lascivious, or indecent language, or makes any suggestion or proposal of an obscene nature, or threatens any illegal or immoral act with the intent to coerce, intimidate, or harass any person, over any telephone or citizens band radio, in this Commonwealth, is guilty of a Class 1 misdemeanor.

"Over any telephone" includes, for purposes of this section, any electronically transmitted communication producing a visual or electronic message that is received or transmitted by cellular telephone or other wireless telecommunications device.

Code 1950, § 18.1-238; 1960, c. 358; 1964, c. 577; 1975, cc. 14, 15; 1976, c. 312; 1984, c. 592; 2010, c. 565; 2011, c. 246.

The chapters of the acts of assembly referenced in the historical citation at the end of this section may not constitute a comprehensive list of such chapters and may exclude chapters whose provisions have expired.
https://virginiarules.org/varules_topic ... t-persons/
Harassment means to repeatedly annoy or attack a person or group in such a way as to cause anxiety or fear for safety. Several different types of harassment are against Virginia law
Hate crimes are defined in Virginia law as:


...


all other incidents, as determined by law enforcement authorities, intended to intimidate or harass any individual or group because of race, religion, or national origin.

(Code of Virginia § 52-8.5 (C))

Virginia law requires law enforcement agencies to report all hate crimes to the Virginia State Police. In 2008, 337 hate crime offenses were reported; 35.9 percent of these were assault offenses; and 41.2 percent were vandalism /damage of property offenses.
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Re: Racism in America (with data)

Post by malchior »

Did we think this would go any other way?
Kyle Rittenhouse’s lawyers can refer to the men he shot as “rioters” and “looters,” but prosecutors still may not call them “victims” at any time during the teen’s upcoming murder trial, a judge ruled Monday.

Circuit Judge Bruce Schroeder cautioned the defense team against using pejorative terms during opening statements, but he said they could use them in their closing arguments if the evidence suggested the men engaged in criminal acts.

“He can demonize them if he wants, if he thinks it will win points with the jury,” Schroeder said.

Rittenhouse has pleaded not guilty to the charges and says he acted in self-defense when he fatally shot Joseph Rosenbaum and Anthony Huber and wounded Gaige Grosskreutz in August 2020.
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Re: Racism in America (with data)

Post by Octavious »

They can't call the people shot victims? Jesus we're so f'n broken.
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Re: Racism in America (with data)

Post by malchior »

I just saw a prosecutor mention it on the tv tubes...said they have never been barred like that in a murder case. To paraphrase badly, self-defense is an affirmative defense and is on the table so the defense already has a tool to convince the jury. It looked to them like the judge decided to tie the prosecutor's hands somewhat. They didn't go so far as spell out the political elements but let's be real. The judge is elected and sits in one of the reddest parts of Wisconsin. This isn't a big leap.

Updated with some topical deep derp.

Last edited by malchior on Tue Oct 26, 2021 1:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Racism in America (with data)

Post by Isgrimnur »

Thanks for the grounds for appeal before we even start.
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Re: Racism in America (with data)

Post by Ralph-Wiggum »


Spoiler:
The judge in Kyle Rittenhouse's trial says lawyers cannot call the 2 people he killed "victims."

Rittenhouse killed 2 people and wounded another with an AR-15 style weapon. The judge says "victim" is too "loaded" but will let lawyers call them "rioters, looters or arsonists."
Perfectly normal, not racist at all.
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Re: Racism in America (with data)

Post by pr0ner »

Some details into that:
At an earlier hearing in the case, Schroeder told prosecutors they could not refer to any of the men shot in the case as victims. That is Schroeder’s standard practice in criminal cases and is not unique to his handling of the Rittenhouse case.
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Re: Racism in America (with data)

Post by malchior »

Even if he is consistent it still seems wrong that the defense is allowed to attack the character of the dead and then disallow the prosecution to advocate for their character. The idea that victim is loaded but allowing the defense to attempt to hang crimes on them...seems unbalanced. Especially since lawsplainers are saying self-defense in Wisconsin doesn't contemplate stopping riots or arson. The defense should be tasked with proving Rittenhouse solely was at imminent risk to execute a self-defense defense. The judge is giving them an assist on that.
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Re: Racism in America (with data)

Post by Alefroth »

I wonder what makes their conduct riotous as opposed to Rittenhouse's. Does just being present make you a rioter? Maybe the prosecutors should refer to Rittenhouse as a killer.
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Re: Racism in America (with data)

Post by hepcat »

Christ, what a travesty of justice.
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Re: Racism in America (with data)

Post by McNutt »

I know I'm late to this (I try to stay out of R&P), but why is this a travesty? The entire case is about whether or not Rittenhouse was acting in self defense. If he was, he was the victim. If he wasn't, they are the victims. The judge seems to not want to throw around labels at this point and it seems to be a good idea.

I think Rittenhouse was looking for trouble. I can't understand why anyone would sling an AR-15 and head towards a riot. However, the videos I saw seemed to indicate that he only used his gun when he was legitimately fearing for his life. In other words, we had Rittenhouse looking for trouble and he met an opposing force also looking for trouble.

It's a total shit show. I have little sympathy for this kid. However, when people threaten you with violence and chase you down, are you not allowed to defend yourself simply because you were the guy that brought a gun to a riot?
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Re: Racism in America (with data)

Post by malchior »

McNutt wrote: Wed Oct 27, 2021 4:19 pm I know I'm late to this (I try to stay out of R&P), but why is this a travesty? The entire case is about whether or not Rittenhouse was acting in self defense. If he was, he was the victim. If he wasn't, they are the victims. The judge seems to not want to throw around labels at this point and it seems to be a good idea.
I can go with that. Where it falls apart for me is that they are allowed to throw around labels about people who are in the ground and can't tell their side of the story.
I think Rittenhouse was looking for trouble. I can't understand why anyone would sling an AR-15 and head towards a riot. However, the videos I saw seemed to indicate that he only used his gun when he was legitimately fearing for his life.
The trouble with this statement IMO is that they don't really square up the videos. He was certainly engaged with someone, certainly could have heard a shot that might have spooked him, but the person he killed had no weapons. He might have thrown a bag at him. So maybe he was legitimately in fear of his life but he didn't kill the actual potential threat to his life. That's at least reckless homicide in my book.

The other shooting involved people chasing him after he gunned someone down. That isn't necessarily a clean self-defense case. Though at least someone was swinging something tangible at him unlike the first shooting. The issue there is that Wisconsin from everything I've heard has a duty to retreat unless you are protecting your own home or property. Or properly hired by someone to defend property. Also, he had a firearm and the other guy had a skate board. That's a hard argument to square up again in my book.
It's a total shit show. I have little sympathy for this kid. However, when people threaten you with violence and chase you down, are you not allowed to defend yourself simply because you were the guy that brought a gun to a riot?
You can defend yourself. The question is whether he did it legally. A lot of very practiced people think he committed murder.

In any case, shit show is right. This is so American it hurts. I think this has always going to end up being a very divisive George Zimmerman like act.
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Re: Racism in America (with data)

Post by malchior »

FWIW - here is Glenn Kirschner arguing the point about the inequity between denying calling them victims (he actually has no problem with it neutrally) but goes on to talk about how allowing the defense to dehumanize the decedents (his term) is biased. He also points out it actually likely violates Wisconsin law to boot.

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Re: Racism in America (with data)

Post by McNutt »

I agree that Rittenhouse's team can't use those labels as well. Can't have it both ways.
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Re: Racism in America (with data)

Post by Smoove_B »

So yeah, about that judge (it's a big thread)


. So you're probably seething about the judge in the Kyle Rittenhouse case saying lawyers can't call the 3 people he shot "victims," while there's a chance they can be called "rioters" or "looters"

Did you wonder what's up with this guy? I did.

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Racism in America (with data)

Post by Alefroth »

vic·tim
/ˈviktəm/
noun
a person harmed, injured, or killed as a result of a crime, accident, or other event or action.
Last edited by Alefroth on Thu Oct 28, 2021 12:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Racism in America (with data)

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What the hell did you just do? I feel like time and space have just changed.
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Re: Racism in America (with data)

Post by Alefroth »

Whoa, that was weird.
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Re: Racism in America (with data)

Post by McNutt »

Alefroth wrote: Wed Oct 27, 2021 11:19 pm vic·tim
/ˈviktəm/
noun
a person harmed, injured, or killed as a result of a crime, accident, or other event or action.
I'm playing Devil's Advocate here, but Rittenhouse could also be called "the victim" as the defense is claiming that he was attacked and harmed.

I'm not a fan of Rittenhouse and I don't know enough about this judge. I do however understand the though process of not allowing the state to call those shot "the victims."
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Re: Racism in America (with data)

Post by Little Raven »

Especially since this is a self-defense case, which means Rittenhouse is ALSO claiming to be the victim. The whole point of the trail is for the jury to sort out who the actual victim is.

Regardless, the problem for the prosecution is not the judge - it's the jury. Pulling a group of 20 people in Wisconsin without getting 1 that is deeply sympathetic to Rittenhouse is likely to prove....challenging.
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Re: Racism in America (with data)

Post by Unagi »

I can understand the restricted use of the term.

They just need to be sure to never call him the defendant and always call him ‘the shooter’ and call them ‘the killed’ or ‘the deceased’.
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Re: Racism in America (with data)

Post by Alefroth »

McNutt wrote: Thu Oct 28, 2021 9:03 am
Alefroth wrote: Wed Oct 27, 2021 11:19 pm vic·tim
/ˈviktəm/
noun
a person harmed, injured, or killed as a result of a crime, accident, or other event or action.
I'm playing Devil's Advocate here, but Rittenhouse could also be called "the victim" as the defense is claiming that he was attacked and harmed.
I'm okay with that. I don't think it's a zero sum situation.
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Re: Racism in America (with data)

Post by Alefroth »

Unagi wrote: Thu Oct 28, 2021 9:33 am I can understand the restricted use of the term.

They just need to be sure to never call him the defendant and always call him ‘the shooter’ and call them ‘the killed’ or ‘the deceased’.
The 'killer' would be accurate too, wouldn't it?
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Re: Racism in America (with data)

Post by Isgrimnur »

WISN
During cross-examination, prosecutor Thomas Binger asked Rittenhouse about whether it was appropriate to use deadly force to protect property.

The prosecutor also posed questions about Rittenhouse's silence after his arrest.

At that, the jury was ushered out of the room, and Judge Bruce Schroeder loudly and angrily accused Binger of pursuing an improper line of questioning and trying to introduce testimony that the judge earlier said he was inclined to prohibit.

Rittenhouse lawyer Corey Chirafasi all but suggested prosecutors might be deliberately trying to cause a mistrial because this one is "going badly" for the prosecution and it wants a do-over.

The defense asked for a mistrial with prejudice, meaning that if one is granted, Rittenhouse cannot be retried in the shootings.

When Binger said he had been acting in good faith, the judge replied: "I don't believe that."
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Re: Racism in America (with data)

Post by Little Raven »

Given just what a disaster the prosecution's case has been, fishing for a mistrial is not out of the question, but I doubt it will come to that.
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Re: Racism in America (with data)

Post by malchior »

Little Raven wrote: Thu Nov 11, 2021 1:18 am Given just what a disaster the prosecution's case has been, fishing for a mistrial is not out of the question, but I doubt it will come to that.
Yeah he hasn't been great. I've only dropped in a few times to check it out but the prosecutor isn't what was needed for such a high profile case. Same thing could be said of the judge. Yesterday I watched about 30 minutes and saw the judge stepping all over the prosecutor during questioning. The few times the prosecutor landed a blow on Rittenhouse during his cross the judge was to my IANAL eyes essentially objecting in place of the defense. I don't know if this is odd but it looks a bit biased even if it is the norm. Still only seeing snippets so not sure what to think other than this is going to be another divisive mess in a few days time.
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Re: Racism in America (with data)

Post by LawBeefaroni »

The writing in this trial sucks. It's predictable and lazy. Call me old fashioned but I prefer the days of courtroom sketches and beat reporters. That was real artistry.


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